What does it mean to be a real "elder," rather than just an "oldster"

[Shepherd]

I saw an interview with depth psychologist James Hillman last night, which included something about what it means to be a real "elder," as compared to an "oldster." As we come to the end of the American Empire, since everything that lives dies, I hope we can maintain some of the truly American values, as laid out in our beloved Constitution and Bill of Rights.

It reminded me of the new book "Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble" by Stephen Jenkinson. I agree that this is a time when radical acts are needed. Jenkinson is one of the funniest men I have ever heard talk. You could google him for the many talks he will be giving. Please forward to others who may be interested.

“In a troubled time, the willingness to proceed like you’re needed is a radical act.” That is a quote from Stephen Jenkinson’s new book “Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble.”

From Tad Hargrave
I’ve interviewed Stephen twice before, the first on the issue of ‘right livelihood‘ and the second around the question, ‘Am I ready to teach?‘. As his new book, quotes above, just came out and he is about to hit the road with a North American tour, I thought that the time might be ripe for another interview on this topic of elders. Because, after all, if elders are so important, then where are they?

In his new book and landmark provocative style, Stephen Jenkinson makes the case that we must birth a new generation of elders, one poised and willing to be true stewards of the planet and its species.

“Come of Age” does not offer tips on how to be a better senior citizen or how to be kinder to our elders. Rather, with lyrical prose and incisive insight, Stephen Jenkinson explores the great paradox of elderhood in North America: how we are awash in the aged and yet somehow lacking in wisdom; how we relegate senior citizens to the corner of the house while simultaneously heralding them as sage elders simply by virtue of their age. Our own unreconciled relationship with what it means to be an elder has yielded a culture nearly bereft of them. Meanwhile, the planet boils, and the younger generation boils with anger over being left an environment and sociopolitical landscape deeply scarred and broken.

Come of Age is now being shipped to all those of you that pre-ordered the print and audiobook versions. You can now order online to get instant access to the audiobook version and quick shipping of the print version. The audiobook is a delightful listen with the spoken word recording by Stephen Jenkinson himself.

[Star Man]

I saw an interview with depth psychologist James Hillman last night, which included something about what it means to be a real "elder," as compared to an "oldster." .

Mr. Bliss. I do not support your belief that older people could be the saviors of democracy. Zogby the pollster published some numbers from a survey of 1,300 Americans. Among people over 65, 42% supported Trump. This demographic has nothing of value to teach me. Consider that this demographic supports Trump even as he and his party actively try to take away Social Security and Medicare from older people. Wisdom? I think not.

As a demographic, elders do not appear to have achieved the fifth and final stage of the grief process, the stage of acceptance. Elders are more likely to be religious: 48% of elders go to church regularly. Only 25% of millennials do. "Some social psychologists have suggested that religion helps soothe fear and insecurity about one’s own mortality (Vail et al., 2009), especially when religion offers immortality. Because aging tends to amplify these concerns, the thinking goes, religion becomes more important to people as they get older."

Unfortunately for seniors, the very people who are taking away their Social Security and Medicare are also the most publicly religious, for example Vice President Mike Pence. Fear of death is a central force in the lives of all Americans, especially seniors. Religion promises immortality with no proof whatsoever.

The true elders who would be worth emulating would be those who have achieved a spiritual meaning making model for their lives--as opposed to a religious meaning making model--a spiritual model that allows them to accept their death with equanimity. Unfortunately for all of us, it is precisely the religious model that has caused the world to be headed into the Sixth Mass Extinction, because it tells its adherents that they have dominion over the world. That belief is not working out well for the world as evidenced by global warming, glacial melting, over population, worsening drought, worsening wild fires, species extinction. pollution, and on and on. The people who are seniors today and the people who contributed to bringing us the world we live in today. Their views have only hardened according to polls. I do not believe they have much wisdom to transmit as a demographic. Now if they all emulated Bernie Sanders.....

[Star Man]

Also, I am 80 years old. I believe I could be a savior of democracy but that is because my spirituality and my political and social beliefs are diametrically opposed to those of my demographic. Old age does not imply wisdom. Old age only implies old age. There are young people who are wise, e.g. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. I believe I have accrued wisdom by fighting for it. Star Man

[BEE KIND]

Star Man, whatever poll you cited must be a national poll, not local. And a survey of only 1,300, really? Where, in the southern or midwestern states? I don't believe that there are that many elders around here who support Trump or his agenda. Shame on you for lumping all elders together in the same stereotypical category. Most of the elders who I know, are not Trump supporters and do have a lot of wisdom to share from their many years of experience that younger more idealistic folks naturally lack.

We were all young once and remember how we thought then, that we knew it all and we had to learn many lessons the hard way as we aged...because we refused to listen to our elders. The older we get, the more we learn and we wish that we could pass that on to young people, so they don't make the same mistakes we did. Many of us are fighting for all the same things as you are, but we have learned more about the importance of compromise. That it can't always be our way or no way.

For instance Bernie supporters who refused to vote for Hillary, and thus helped Trump win. We remember when we could have had Al Gore instead of G.W. Bush, if not for Ralph Nader. How different things would be now if we had started working on climate change back then, instead of invading Iraq and destabilizing that part of the world.

Mr. Bliss. I do not support your belief that older people could be the saviors of democracy. Zogby the pollster published some numbers from a survey of 1,300 Americans. Among people over 65, 42% supported Trump. This demographic has nothing of value to teach me. Consider that this demographic supports Trump even as he and his party actively try to take away Social Security and Medicare from older people. Wisdom? I think not.

As a demographic, elders do not appear to have achieved the fifth and final stage of the grief process, the stage of acceptance. Elders are more likely to be religious: 48% of elders go to church regularly. Only 25% of millennials do. "Some social psychologists have suggested that religion helps soothe fear and insecurity about one’s own mortality (Vail et al., 2009), especially when religion offers immortality. Because aging tends to amplify these concerns, the thinking goes, religion becomes more important to people as they get older."

Unfortunately for seniors, the very people who are taking away their Social Security and Medicare are also the most publicly religious, for example Vice President Mike Pence. Fear of death is a central force in the lives of all Americans, especially seniors. Religion promises immortality with no proof whatsoever.

The true elders who would be worth emulating would be those who have achieved a spiritual meaning making model for their lives--as opposed to a religious meaning making model--a spiritual model that allows them to accept their death with equanimity. Unfortunately for all of us, it is precisely the religious model that has caused the world to be headed into the Sixth Mass Extinction, because it tells its adherents that they have dominion over the world. That belief is not working out well for the world as evidenced by global warming, glacial melting, over population, worsening drought, worsening wild fires, species extinction. pollution, and on and on. The people who are seniors today and the people who contributed to bringing us the world we live in today. Their views have only hardened according to polls. I do not believe they have much wisdom to transmit as a demographic. Now if they all emulated Bernie Sanders.....

[Star Man]

Star Man, whatever poll you cited must be a national poll, not local. ....

Dear Bee Kind. Let's look at what you say from a different perspective.

1. America is a nation where an insufficient number of people voted for Nader or Al Gore and so GB won. America is a nation where there are too few citizens wise enough to have voted for Hillary or for Bernie. It's so easy to blame Nader or Bernie rather than to look at the failings of America as a nation.

2. Elders? Who do you think teaches the young people if not their elders? The psychologist Murray Bowen spoke of an intergenerational transmission of constructs like "the importance of compromise." Compromise is what has gotten us here. The Corporate Democrats have compromised away Universal Health Care. Hilary is the consummate compromiser. She accepted speaking fees of six figures. What would Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez do in that situation? Global warming is a result of compromise. The Corporate Democrats felt they had to compromise with Big Energy and as a result Big Energy won.

3. The number 1,300 in a sample is a standard number of respondents selected randomly to accurately assess the population. Sure, if the scientists had polled Sebastopol they'd have found out what seniors in Sebastopol think, but that would not accurately represent what American seniors think.

4. "Shame on you"??? Where do you come off shaming me? You sound like my mother come back from the grave. "You should be ashamed of yourself, Johnny" was her mantra. Please note that I did not say "Shame on you" for not knowing much about statistics or sampling or for not knowing much about the politics of compromise. Star Man

[wisewomn]

But, Star Man, is it really accurate to say "America is a nation where there are too few citizens wise enough to have voted for Hillary or for Bernie?" GWB was more accurately "selected" rather than "elected," wasn't he? And Gore clearly won the popular vote, despite the Supremes and Florida, as did Clinton.

I do, however, agree with you about Establishment Democrats, who turned into invertebrates during the Reagan administration and have stayed that way ever since. What they don't realize now is that the zealots in charge of the Republican Party today have no intention of compromising on anything.

Dear Bee Kind. Let's look at what you say from a different perspective.

1. America is a nation where an insufficient number of people voted for Nader or Al Gore and so GB won. America is a nation where there are too few citizens wise enough to have voted for Hillary or for Bernie. It's so easy to blame Nader or Bernie rather than to look at the failings of America as a nation.

2. Elders? Who do you think teaches the young people if not their elders? The psychologist Murray Bowen spoke of an intergenerational transmission of constructs like "the importance of compromise." Compromise is what has gotten us here. The Corporate Democrats have compromised away Universal Health Care. Hilary is the consummate compromiser. She accepted speaking fees of six figures. What would Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez do in that situation? Global warming is a result of compromise. The Corporate Democrats felt they had to compromise with Big Energy and as a result Big Energy won.

3. The number 1,300 in a sample is a standard number of respondents selected randomly to accurately assess the population. Sure, if the scientists had polled Sebastopol they'd have found out what seniors in Sebastopol think, but that would not accurately represent what American seniors think.

4. "Shame on you"??? Where do you come off shaming me? You sound like my mother come back from the grave. "You should be ashamed of yourself, Johnny" was her mantra. Please note that I did not say "Shame on you" for not knowing much about statistics or sampling or for not knowing much about the politics of compromise. Star Man