Democratic Debate #1

[Alex]

I don't consider these items "lies". People running for elected office say things they shouldn't say. They promise things over which they have little or no control..... expressing uncertainty as a candidate is the kiss of death....

My response can hardly be said better than Semperviren's whole post to you, this level of rationalizing is terrifying to live around. I was going to call it the 'boys will be boys syndrome', which is totally unforgivable to me in light of it ultimately giving permission to psychopaths to bomb families having dinner, hospitals and infrastructure times a million like the 'collateral damage' was rationalized off in Iraq as. You're attitude says 'oh well'.

Americans are scared of the perpetual parade of false bogeyman. The real bogeyman - the biggest law breakers, the biggest enemy to the American constitution, and the biggest world terrorist is the American government.... in perpetual empowerment by the American people's abdication of their constitutional duty to hold the government accountable. It's refusing to learn from history again - any amount of rope given to power will be taken.

However, I'm concerned that the tone of your post leads me to believe that the only path forward you see is a violent one....

This level of projecting absurd assumptions with zero basis in my actual words is also terrifying to know is probably happening a lot around me. The truth is that violence did not even cross my mind - because who would we even be violent towards to accomplish anything....city hall? No.... the police? No.... the white house lawn? No.... the military? hell No..... the big picture is way too big for any one 'target'.

So lots of expose, but what are any answers? Possibly the only hope is continuing to wake up more complacent allowers and blind obeyers in denial first, then I expect the incredible human ingenuity will wake up and spawn unexpected, possible very creative and effective actions that cannot now be planned, predicted or gain any momentum with so many minds still snoring. I can only contribute to my small sphere, but the number of spheres is growing.

However, effective in the past have been strikes, movements of mass non-compliance in some large way, or possibly break-aways. The most important factor to me is that the 'powers' always need our compliance and cooperation in BIG ways to keep accomplishing their agendas, and there's a shitload more of us than them.

In the meantime, doing what you can includes stopping contributing to the problem wherever you can - like here. Don't continue to pretend there's any believable merit in these debates to discuss. Expose and dissect who they really are and what they really represent instead, stand up to the defenders of criminality in your spoken and written words and be willing to take the heat from those clinging to their false beliefs.

[Peacemaker]

It's quite surprising to me that a small passage that was meant to be descriptive of an existing process is getting so much response. I don't think writing about how politicians and people relate to each other is the same as condoning it or supporting it. Nor does it address the desperation of our plight, which is becoming more desperate with each passing day. Alex, I regret that you found it terrifying. It was only meant to be a description of how I think things are and how a small part of our political process currently works. It was not about whether or not it is good or bad, just the way things are at the moment. What is sad to me is that both you and Semperviren believe that you can know another human being so well after reading a few short paragraphs. I'm afraid that your judgement of who I am, what I believe, and how I act in the world couldn't be more in error.

[Hotspring 44]

I have similar viewpoints as you have stated.

I also do at times at least attempt to mention alternatives to the 'status quo' environment of economics, social structure, resource use and distribution, police and military 'use' along with the 'politics' which (politics) is at the helm of.

I do (sometimes) mention to people (mostly my friends who I see all to often being sucked-in to the hypnotic mass media's trappings but that becomes very frustrating rather rapidly and I have a low and diminishing tolerance for trying to talk to someone who is hypnotized,

With me being unknowing of what the key to unlocking the hypnotized from the hypnosis, the education system, and mass media has so masterfully infused onto our society's mindset.

As to 'educating' myself; I don't own a TV so my TV watching is minimal, I listen to mostly (99% of the time) listener sponsored radio either over the airwaves or internet where there is no reception on airwaves when I do listen to the 'conventional' AM and FM broadcast radio bands; sometimes I listen to shortwave broadcasts too.

I listen to my area's local radio station KZYX (Mendocino County) and/or one of it's affiliate repeater stations; then there are also KPFZ (Lake County) and KPFA (Brekeley CA) on internet because there is no air-wave reception where I live for KPFA, I listen to it on the internet.

On KPFA every day there is Evening News, @ 6:00 PM; on Thursdays starting at 10:00 AM there is an excellent one hour 'show' devoted to economics called Economic Update hosted by Richard D. Wolff;
Some Richard Wolff info links:
https://www.rdwolff.com/

https://www.truth-out.org/author/itemlist/user/44661

https://www.facebook.com/Richard-Wol...2172/timeline/
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On Many radio stations and a video version of Democracy Now! which is also on LINK TV (for me I download an mp3 audio recording of those 'shows' from the KPFA website when they become available to do so after the local broadcast of each); Democracy Now! And Evening News

That is just to name a few, there are many more like: music, international affairs and 'international' music, local issues etc.

Then there is one local news paper that has very excellently written articles which for such a small town compares surprisingly well to many large corporate papers but it is usually even far more in-depth because there are no corporate mandates to how long (short) the article has to be to 'fit' in the paper, and it has not been taken over by the monstrous mass media machine, so it has those very in-depth articles that tell truth to power so to speak; It is called Anderson Valley Advertiser It even has some on line archives!... ...like this one that may be of interest here on waccobb https://theava.com/archives/49071 .

Deferentially, I don't think that supporting or voting for one presidential candidate or another makes any difference in the human march toward ecological demise...

P.S. The old saying (I think) applies here: "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink"
I will also say about that in regards to human nature metaphorically speaking; once you get the horse to the watering hole and they see their own reflection in the water and freak-out and start bucking, kicking, fighting you and trying to kill you if necessary to get away, It is time to let go of the lead rope and survive: IMHO.

[Sempervirens]

I have similar viewpoints as you have stated...

Thank you for the various links and references. I'm quite familiar with the AVA, and also don't watch TV, or listen much to any broadcast other than occasional streaming documentaries or interviews. I read extensively, including occasional forays into what the mainstream corporate media choose to promote. The gulf between what most people get from broadcast and print media and what's really happening -- because I don't think those who risk jobs, reputations, and lives to report and document what they know do so for anything other than conscience and desire to improve society -- is truly discouraging. Disinformation is official government, corporate, and military policy, and the proportion of Americans who suck it up is beyond depressing. I can only take so much of questioning and challenging others to think outside their existing boxes.

And with that, I'm gone from this forum. I have more rewarding and worthwhile pursuits than attempting to water horses.

[Alex]

What is sad to me is that both you and Semperviren believe that you can know another human being so well after reading a few short paragraphs. I'm afraid that your judgement of who I am, what I believe, and how I act in the world couldn't be more in error.

Oh... you mean like how expansively you declared you knew me after a few paragraphs?

....Obviously, you've got it all together and understand everything there is to be understood, and finally, know everything there is to be known about what is to be done....

What hypocrisy!

I AM frequently frustrated by how written words are far more open to MISinterpretation than face to face conversation, so I try to be precise. I defended myself against your projection that I advocated violence for which the words are absolutely not there, but what else is the statement "People running for elected office say things they shouldn't say. They promise things over which they have no control" but making excuses for liars and rationalizing them off?

Regardless if you want to deny that it's a reasonable interpretation, it was a big reminder that it's true that we are surrounded by many who share this very, very common excusing and ignoring and it is terrifying.

[Peacemaker]

Yes, you are correct. My initial message to you was over the top and ill-deserved. I apologize for having written impulsively and erroneously. Obviously, no good can come of such unskilled communication.

Oh... you mean like how expansively you declared you knew me after a few paragraphs? ...

[Peacemaker]

What else is simply a description of what they do. Neither condoning nor condemning. Certainly not "excusing and ignoring."

People running for elected office say things they shouldn't say. They promise things over which they have no control"[/I] but making excuses for liars and rationalizing them off?

Regardless if you want to deny that it's a reasonable interpretation, it was a big reminder that it's true that we are surrounded by many who share this very, very common excusing and ignoring and it is terrifying.

[Valley Oak]

WARNING: If you watch this video you will see things that might make you angry and frustrated regarding not just the debates but American democracy in general.

Watch at your own risk. (Some say that it is best not to know the whole truth.)

[podfish]

WARNING: If you watch this video you will see things that might make you angry and frustrated regarding not just the debates but American democracy in general.

I don't particularly single out debates or democracy - I'm kind of angry and (well, not really angry, just..) frustrated that, as Barbie so impoliticly said, 'math is hard' for most people.

Any attempt at putting a system like this into place would elicit a totally visceral reaction in most people. They'd feel like it's an attempt at tricking them, not at empowering them. Almost no-one believes in math; otherwise they'd be scared driving to the airport, not while flying in the plane.

[Valley Oak]

Any attempt at putting a system like this into place would elicit a totally visceral reaction in most people. They'd feel like it's an attempt at tricking them, not at empowering them.

Excellent observation; 100% true.

That's why history can move so slowly on many things. It takes time and education. Public outreach and education is a long process, not a quick one.

But things do change, just look at how astonishingly fast the gay rights movement achieved a string of victories since the California amendment to its constitution barring same-sex marriage in 2008. In seven years, gay marriage became the law of the land--all 50 states!

(However, if you carefully study history, you'll see that there were small struggles here and there to defend gay rights, as early as the 1920s. Almost no one alive back then lived long enough to see gay marriage legalized. From this historical perspective, gay marriage did take a very long time, at least a century. And this is overlooking the fact that there have been gays and lesbians since time immemorial, not just during the 1920s in the U.S.)

Anyway, we have seen an African-American become president. We will probably see the first woman president next year. We have put a man on the moon. We have abolished slavery (in its formal state). Women won the right to vote. We established a democracy (of sorts) in 1776. Computers kick ass, we have smartphones, Internet, automobiles, planes, cures for deadly diseases, we have evermore sophisticated robots, etc. And the list of once inconceivable achievements less than a century ago is much longer than this.

Guess what: I'm right to be optimistic. We will have electoral reform someday. Maybe not in my lifetime, but it will come. (Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton did not live to see the constitutional amendment ratified giving women the right to vote in 1920). Heck, by the time we do achieve electoral reform, folks might just see that there is no point to artificially maintaining this thing we call the United States of America. Malcolm X once said, "After this country has been long gone, we will still be black!"

[Peacemaker]

Is this the system that was used in the California election that brought Kamala Harris to office? Is it now in use in Berkeley, CA elections?

Any attempt at putting a system like this into place would elicit a totally visceral reaction in most people...

[Moon]

Ah yes, we humans are nothing if not irrational. What we could do, though, is put on the net interviews with people from places like Mendocino County, where--about a decade ago--the one of the three candidates only a small minority did not find objectionable was elected, because the two popular candidates split the progressive vote. The interviewees would surely be calmer by now, but I recall at least one person's being in tears after that election, and some of that feeling would still come through.

I don't particularly single out debates or democracy - I'm kind of angry and (well, not really angry, just..) frustrated that, as Barbie so impoliticly said, 'math is hard' for most people.

Any attempt at putting a system like this into place would elicit a totally visceral reaction in most people. They'd feel like it's an attempt at tricking them, not at empowering them. Almost no-one believes in math; otherwise they'd be scared driving to the airport, not while flying in the plane.