Women's Gifting Circle redux

[Shandi]

I'm doing my part by posting this on my Facebook timeline:

Women, we need your input, on WaccoBB.net There's an ongoing conversation about women's experiences with Gifting Circles. I've posted mine, which were in Hawaii in the 80's. All comments are welcome, whether you had a positive experience in making money and friends, or you lost money, and maybe even some self respect. Your feedback may serve as a warning to other women, and also serve the spirit of the highest good of all concerned.

[Shandi]

I'm sharing what I've just sent to my entire mailing list of women:

"I want to ask if you or anyone you know have ever been involved in a "Women's Gifting Circle",where large amounts of money are gifted to join the circle, in order to help other women, and become empowered by making money together.

It's not something that's advertised, but comes through one on one invitations. They may be called "Garden Parties"
or by other names. Ever heard of them, or have any experience? I was involved in one when I lived in Hawaii, and was invited to another when I lived in Marin. I'm gathering stories, and would appreciate any you might have."

I will report any responses that I get, unless asked to keep in confidence.

[Vicky10]

Hi Waccoites,
I am sorry I have not been able to keep up with this thread but we have been given notice that the house we rent is being sold and we must move. I've been up to my eyeballs in that mess.

Thanks, Shandi, for sharing the post from this woman. If one participates knowingly, understanding that it is truly a GIFT, and not an investment that expects return, then I believe the circles can have value. Somewhere way back in this thread (maybe Evalena's post?) it was said that one should only gift what they can easily afford to lose seeing it as a way to help a sister manifest a dream. I agree entirely.

As to the tone of some of these posts, I am reminded of an important spiritual lesson. There is a razor fine line between righteous indignation and self-righteousness. Some of these posts, Dixon's for example, have a witch hunt tone, wanting blood and women's names turned in for prosecution. Granted, Dixon's stated goal is to protect the community. But in the large scheme of things, women who participate in a gifting circle are an easy mark, it seems to me. The CEO of Chase Bank and the corrupt financial institutions that nearly brought our entire global economy to its knees and destroyed the lives of millions are still free. Even as a woman who joined one of these circles not understanding the mathematics of it and who cannot in good conscience invite anyone else, (the very behavior that contributes to the circle collapsing and my losing any opportunity for financial reward) I'd rather see people's desire for justice pointed at more worthy targets.

I both entered this current gifting circle and invited another woman with a pure heart. As I wrote in my initial post, my attention was focused on the developing nations micro-loan concept and it was this thread of conversation that helped me understand the unsustainable math of it all. Now the beauty of mathematics is its purity... one can't argue with it. It doesn't carry with it self-righteousness and bitterness. It simply is what it is. Therefore, my preference for how to deal with gifting circles is education not prosecution and most assuredly not the seductive trap of self-righteous that can so easily ensnare any of us.

Given my need to find a new home I may not be able to reply promptly to this thread but I will try my best to stay engaged for the wonderful value of education that is is providing. Thanks Waccoites.
Vicky

[hummingbird]

I recently decided not to join a gifting circle...not because of any of the above expert stated opinions, but because I don't have the time right now to meet on the phone for an hour every week to explore my relationship to money.

I think that it should be noted that I was offered to join with no buy in....zero dollars down. Women are so inspired by this movement that they are willing to pay for others to join so they can have the experience. There actually IS gifting involved as well as receiving, which is something many women struggle to do.

Many of the negative comments (or so-called warnings) in this post are direct representations of why men are not invited to these circles. Logics make little way for the fluidity required to step into these circles in an empowered way. I know women who appear to be genuinely empowered by these circles. Not because of the money as an investment, but because they are challenged through the weekly group processes to change thier relationship to money. And they do. I have heard many times the shift in energy immediately opened them to receive in all areas of life. The original chunk of change was perhaps a small price to pay, considering how much money is spent on workshops and self improvement classes with no chance for monetary return on the investment! Maybe these women actually are empowered by the experience. Perhaps their experience is needed to shift the greed reality we all live in whether we choose to actively participate or not.

While I don't think that these circles are flawless in how they work, and I am sure that not everyone who joins is clean with their intentions, I am grateful to them because of the threat they pose to the archaic, patriarchal paradigm. (AKA status quo/ comfort zones). The old greed oriented monetary system is certainly challenged by women who take a risk and change their personal relationship to money. So I applaud these women for exploring how how they relate to their finances and for opening to new possibilities for working with it.

I believe that these circles will only continue to grow in numbers until something more evolved comes along.
I would love to invite the waccos to come up with the next phase of these circles. Fantasize. What WORKS about the gifting circles? Why are they so popular? It's clear that folks here have a sense of the aspects that don't work. How then could they be improved upon? Perhaps some of us need to explore our own relationship to cash flow and why we are triggered by the presence of these circles. If we can work through our own issues then we can recognize the good that comes with the bad.

There is a similar idea in the Hispanic community called a tanda. Everyone chips in $100 per paycheck. Everyone has a chance to receive. Period. It takes trust.

Perhaps we have something to learn.

[Svea]

Wow. Thanks, as this post is a perfect example of the crap that is thrown around that causes the whole gifting pyramid scheme to regurgitate itself every few years. Bla Bla Bla. I like how you targeted men too. Real classy.

I'm a Dyke Goddess and I disapprove!!!

Svea (my real name)

I recently decided not to join a gifting circle...not because of any of the above expert stated opinions, but because I don't have the time right now to meet on the phone for an hour every week to explore my relationship to money.

I think that it should be noted that I was offered to join with no buy in....zero dollars down. Women are so inspired by this movement that they are willing to pay for others to join so they can have the experience. There actually IS gifting involved as well as receiving, which is something many women struggle to do.

Many of the negative comments (or so-called warnings) in this post are direct representations of why men are not invited to these circles. Logics make little way for the fluidity required to step into these circles in an empowered way. I know women who appear to be genuinely empowered by these circles. Not because of the money as an investment, but because they are challenged through the weekly group processes to change thier relationship to money. And they do. I have heard many times the shift in energy immediately opened them to receive in all areas of life. The original chunk of change was perhaps a small price to pay, considering how much money is spent on workshops and self improvement classes with no chance for monetary return on the investment! Maybe these women actually are empowered by the experience. Perhaps their experience is needed to shift the greed reality we all live in whether we choose to actively participate or not.

While I don't think that these circles are flawless in how they work, and I am sure that not everyone who joins is clean with their intentions, I am grateful to them because of the threat they pose to the archaic, patriarchal paradigm. (AKA status quo/ comfort zones). The old greed oriented monetary system is certainly challenged by women who take a risk and change their personal relationship to money. So I applaud these women for exploring how how they relate to their finances and for opening to new possibilities for working with it.

I believe that these circles will only continue to grow in numbers until something more evolved comes along.
I would love to invite the waccos to come up with the next phase of these circles. Fantasize. What WORKS about the gifting circles? Why are they so popular? It's clear that folks here have a sense of the aspects that don't work. How then could they be improved upon? Perhaps some of us need to explore our own relationship to cash flow and why we are triggered by the presence of these circles. If we can work through our own issues then we can recognize the good that comes with the bad.

There is a similar idea in the Hispanic community called a tanda. Everyone chips in $100 per paycheck. Everyone has a chance to receive. Period. It takes trust.

Perhaps we have something to learn.

[DreadTori]

Bottom line is that the District attorney considers these "gifting circles" Pyramid schemes and scams. And this comes back every time the economy tanks and people get desperate for money and it targets the most vulnerable in our society. Every time it has shown up in Northern California, all the 'empowering women' rhetoric gets trotted out along with a bunch of New Age hooey. Lots of women end up manipulating and guilt-tripping women who figure it out that it's a huge scam.

Many cultures practice "tandas" but they do not have the pyramid structure. They are set up so that each person gifts what they can on a regular basis (usually once a week or once a month) and one person is gifted every week or month or whatever time period that is decided by all members. The number of members can be large or small. This is how many businesses get started or parents raise money to send their children to school. It's a different amount every week and there is an ordered list so each person knows when they will be gifted.

Gifting circles are NOT the same thing; they ask for large sums of money (usually $5000 or more); the "circle" is limited to a certain number (usually 15, with one at top, then two, then four, then 8 on the bottom); it splits into two smaller circles every time someone is gifted and the whole thing starts over, with 8 new "gifters." Nearly 90% of women who join these never get a penny.

And, once again, it's considered a crime by the DA.

I...
There is a similar idea in the Hispanic community called a tanda. Everyone chips in $100 per paycheck. Everyone has a chance to receive. Period. It takes trust. ...

[Svea]

Bottom line is that the District attorney considers these "gifting circles" Pyramid schemes and scams.

Exactly!!

Svea

[PDines]

I thought it might be helpful to state again what a pyramid scheme is. I think that what's key to protecting ourselves and others is to recognize the form, whatever name it goes under. This isn't about vilifying gifts or sharing or community or empowerment. It's about seeing when those important concepts and powerful words are a COVER STORY for a pyramid scheme. It's about developing our ability to see behind the curtain.

The key notion is - What is promised? Does it match what's delivered? There might be nontangible benefits, but if the promise includes money, and people give their money with the expectation/promise that they will get that money back and more, then it's smart to pay attention to how the money part of it works. Otherwise, we make ourselves vulnerable to being conned and ripped off.

And yes sometimes there are true gifting structures. That would be when we know that it's a gift when we gift it, we truly don't expect it back or to make a profit, we don't have any incentive to get recruits in order to get it back, and no one else who joins expects their money back. Then perhaps it's actually gifting. But just the word doesn't make it so. The structure does.

But what we're talking here about is how people use these lovely words to disguise pyramid schemes -- and how to see through that. To me this conversation is an invitation for us to develop the skills to see this structure, even when it's hidden. I mean, who of us were taught this in school! So we get to share lessons learned with each other.

So here's more info on that. I hope it's helpful.

===
FWD: A pyramid scheme is an unsustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

That website has more information on the definition.
===
FWD: As its name indicates, the pyramid scheme is structured like a pyramid. It typically starts with one person - the initial recruiter - who is on top at the apex of the pyramid. This person recruits a second who is required to "invest" a certain amount, which is paid to the initial recruiter. In order to make his or her money back, the new recruit must recruit more people under him or her, each of whom will also have to invest. If the recruit gets 10 more people to invest, he or she will make a profit with just a small investment.

Further, the new people become recruiters and each one is in turn required to enlist an additional 10 people, resulting in a total of 100 more people. Each of those new recruits is also obligated to pay their investment to the person who recruited him or her. Recruiters get a profit of all of the money received, minus their initial investment paid to the person who recruited them. The process continues until the base of the pyramid is no longer strong enough to support the upper structure, and there are no more recruits. (From pyramid schemes to envelope stuffing, there are a lot of scams masquerading as legitimate part-time work. Read more in "Recognize And Avoid "Work At Home" Scams.")

The Fraud
The problem is that the scheme cannot go on forever, because there are a finite number of people who can join the scheme (even if all the people in the world were to join). People are deceived into believing that by giving money, they will make more money; however, no wealth has been created, no product has been sold, no investment has been made, and no service has been provided.

The fraud lies in the fact that it is impossible for the cycle to sustain itself, so people will lose their money somewhere down the line. Those who are most vulnerable are those toward the bottom of the pyramid, where it becomes impossible to recruit the number of people required to pay off the previous layer of recruiters. This kind of fraud is illegal in the U.S. and most countries throughout the world. It is estimated that 90% of people who get involved in a pyramid scheme will lose their money.



Fraud Disguised

Despite the illusion of legality presented by these revamped schemes, they are still illegal. Therefore it is important to recognize the characteristics of such so-called investment plans.

Many schemes will adopt the guise of gift-giving or loans that take place in investment clubs because none of these activities are technically illegal. However, the practice of donating a gift to someone (the recruiter), then having to recruit people into the club in order to receive a return on your investment (or your gift, rather) is essentially a pyramid scheme in disguise.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/04/042104.asp

[Barry]

I thought I add my , timidly (being a man and all )

... I know women who appear to be genuinely empowered by these circles. Not because of the money as an investment, but because they are challenged through the weekly group processes to change their relationship to money. And they do. I have heard many times the shift in energy immediately opened them to receive in all areas of life. The original chunk of change was perhaps a small price to pay, considering how much money is spent on workshops and self improvement classes with no chance for monetary return on the investment! ...

This is one of the things that caught my interest that prompted me to start this thread. The "circle" is definitely a pyramid, but it is also an (expensive) ticket into an ongoing group process. You might even call it a workshop. Aside from the tortured logic and language ("archaic, patriarchal paradigm", AKA "math") that is employed to obfuscate that is a pyramid, I'm sure that the group process helps many women, including some of the ones that end up on the short end of the stick. There is a community building aspect and there is a positive thinking aspect. Either or both could be helpful to some women, and yes, even those aspects may turn negative for some women when the money fails to appear.

Also, I have very limited second-hand knowledge of the circles' workings, but I'm guessing that many of the levels are only partially filled, possibly down several levels. If that's true (anybody?) then that throws off the math being discuss here (89% chance of losing your "gift"). It would make for less-rich desserts, and a lower proportion of losers to winners.

...I would love to invite the waccos to come up with the next phase of these circles. Fantasize. What WORKS about the gifting circles? Why are they so popular?... How then could they be improved upon?...

How it could be improved is easy! Lower the investment! Say, to just 10% of the current $5,000 (just $500). That way there is still enough money to focus the mind and create some inspiration (and some real money if you come out ahead), and an amount that could be chalked up to an educational expense if lost. If it's really about "the weekly group processes to change their relationship to money" then $500 should be sufficient. After that it's just greed.

[PDines]

This is what confuses me. If it's a workshop, why not call it a workshop? If it's a group with an entry fee, why not call it that? If someone isn't going to get their money back, or if it's just expected to come back in some indirect abundance belief system, why not just say that? If it's presented in these ways, it avoids being a pyramid scheme. To me, the simple solution is to be HONEST and FAIR in the offer or promise that one makes. That to me is also how the teachings and support would have the most validity and be based on integrity.

But, in the pitches I've heard, it's not presented that way. You are told you will directly get the money back many times over, and that it will come from new people coming in, so there's a strong incentive to bring people in -- not only by your own desires, but those in the line above you. When that's done in a pyramid structure, that will inherently create ripping off the people who get brought in. And people are NOT told the way the math makes sure that later and later people will increasingly get ripped off. And usually your friends and people in your community. That's inherent in the structure. We don't need to tinker with the structure, or make it cheaper, or anything along those lines. We don't need a cheaper ripoff. The structure is rotten. We need to just have a different structure.

To me this is a really clear distinction and I don't understand how that gets lost.

Also Barry, you might also be interested in my prior post about how the figure of 89% loss doesn't reflect the asymmetrical nature of the loss. i.e. the ones who start it have the best odds of getting paid, which reduces down to zero as one goes down the pyramid. To me that's clearly why con men start this in the first place. They know they'll make good money from it. I don't think a sincere ethical person would come up with a structure like this.

Also, while maybe some people *of their own volition* are able to make lemonade from lemons, I don't think this is the best way to create the lessons and it has a collateral damage -- harming relationships, causing people to be more suspicious and less open to real magic, etc.

I'd like us to aim higher and create structures that a wise community would have to teach and empower people in wise, caring, and ethical ways. I think when we ask that question, we get very different answers. I don't think pyramid schemes would emerge from that question.

Why are people so committed to justifying pyramid schemes? Why can't we nurture love, empowerment, and lessons without lying and ripping people off?

The "circle" is definitely a pyramid, but it is also an (expensive) ticket into an ongoing group process. You might even call it a workshop. ...

[joybird]

Very clearly stated -thank you
It's the COVER STORY that is the problem.
Joy

I thought it might be helpful to state again what a pyramid scheme is....

[joybird]

$5000 or $500 - unless you change the cover story and the structure it's still a pyramid scheme.

Joy

How it could be improved is easy! Lower the investment! Say, to just 10% of the current $5,000 (just $500). That way there is still enough money to focus the mind and create some inspiration (and some real money if you come out ahead), and an amount that could be chalked up to an educational expense if lost. If it's really about "the weekly group processes to change their relationship to money" then $500 should be sufficient. After that it's just greed.

[Shandi]

Just making an initial report: I've had 6 responses and all have basically said they were ripped off, even my friend who indicated there had been 2 times! One woman had never heard of it.....

I'm sharing what I've just sent to my entire mailing list of women:

"I want to ask if you or anyone you know have ever been involved in a "Women's Gifting Circle",where large amounts of money are gifted to join the circle, in order to help other women, and become empowered by making money together.

It's not something that's advertised, but comes through one on one invitations. They may be called "Garden Parties"
or by other names. Ever heard of them, or have any experience? I was involved in one when I lived in Hawaii, and was invited to another when I lived in Marin. I'm gathering stories, and would appreciate any you might have."

I will report any responses that I get, unless asked to keep in confidence.

[Shandi]

I think that the appeal of making $40,000 (which is what one woman I know made) is a lot more exciting than just $4,000., if the entry ticket was only $500. If you had a choice of gaining $40,000 or $4,000, and you could be "sponsored" for your investment what would your choice be? These things are promoted in a way that has no mention of losing. (That might put doubt in someone's mind!) It's much like many promotions we're subject to, the downside is seldom mentioned, except maybe in "fineprint" I'd rather make a $500 investment for a true educational workshop where I'm clear on what I'll get for my money. Otherwise, I'd just as soon buy Lotto tickets, and be clear up front about the odds.

It seems that whenever a circle of women gather there is an exchange of thoughts, feelings, and experiences. This is also an education of sorts that can change the direction of lives through bonding and support, and many times can be achieved for very little investment. And the positive results can be with us the rest of our lives.

[math corrected. ~Barry]

Lower the investment! Say, to just 10% of the current $5,000 (just $500). ...

[podfish]

I recently decided not to join a gifting circle...not because of any of the above expert stated opinions, ... Women are so inspired by this movement that they are willing to pay for others to join so they can have the experience......

Many of the negative comments (or so-called warnings) in this post are direct representations of why men are not invited to these circles. Logics make little way for the fluidity required to step into these circles in an empowered way.

ok, if you're going to prejudge us because of our gender, I'll cop to being a man right off. (I never thought I'd be on Joe Manthey's side of an issue! weird..) Sure sounds like you're disparaging women, too. Women are fluid and not logical? or disempowered by logic but not by fluid?? I really don't get it... and I don't want to get into your implication about the irrelevance of 'experts'.

but do realize, you're basically saying that it's ok to be swindled since there are higher values being served, and the fact that the organizers are swindlers isn't enough reason to avoid them and their program.

[kpage9]

Podfish, I think Hummingbird IS saying it's ok to be swindled since there are higher values being served...not in so many words of course, and H please correct me if I'm wrong.

But let's put this is a bigger context for a moment. How many of us will admit to putting up with being bullied--sometimes cruelly--in programs like est? Some of us pay heaps of money to chat with "your own live psychic" and keep coming back for more, cynically doled out with little teasers to return. Others of us--this may be diminishing--will marry or otherwise mate with someone with a teeny tiny little closed-up heart in the belief that we alone have the key that will unlock that sad-sack's wonderfulness.

Here's just a few of the varieties of mistreatment we voluntarily sign up for:

• Swindles, 6 ways from Sunday*
• Bullying
• Flat-out lies
• Romantic delusion-induced misery

This conversation is focusing on one really interesting example, and my hope is that the perps get justice, and the good to be found in these circles can evolve into a no-greed format.

But if we step back i think we'll see that the outrage deployed toward this particular slice of human behavior ignores the larger point, which i herewith take a stab at articulating: There are deep, biological and ancient yearnings in us humans for meaningful connection. Our prevailing culture has swapped Stuff for connection, and our economy depends on the continued ascendency of that swap. We are all suffering for it, or most of us anyway. And blindly we grope for a return...willing to forego good sense, dignity, even safety in order to get a little oxytocin flowing in, the milk of human kindness, manna and nectar...connection. Love.

These gifting circles come SO CLOSE but with a cynical core that has nothing to do with the beautiful ideas or even beautiful experiences some can have--until they don't. But the circles, the brilliant human potential programs, the promise of connection to the Great Beyond, the adorable lying lovers, and god knows the lovely new $250 shoes....all part of an economic system that inevitably, inexorably floods us with false needs, floating us toward satisfying those needs as if it were really the right thing to do.

Okay I am now waxing lofty and don't think i can really come to a decent conclusion here--my wings are starting to melt in the heat--but am grateful, SO grateful for this conversation.

...and to barry for making the frame for it.

kathy



*archaic term meaning "a lot of different ways, or just a lot"

[Shandi]

Kathy,

If it's o.k. to be swindled if higher values are being served, than it must be o.k. to swindle if I perceive that higher values are being served.

We are all vulnerable to predators, and they know just what we want/need to hear. Some of them even take courses in "mind control" or neuro-linquistic programming. Some are just very good at sales. That's really what it comes down to.....sales through maniupulation. Because if the truth was visible, we might not buy.

I never did the EST training, but know people who did. I've only used a live psychic once, and pretty much trust my own instincts. But I've been manipulated out of large sums of money, in my prior business. I had no knoiwledge or training in contract law. Once I learned the moves of one trickster, I tried to warn a large hotel, like the Hyatt, that this person would leave in the middle of the night, without paying his bill. They didn't believe me, and may have thought I was a bit off, but he did just as I said he would.

Whenever a friend is about to spend money on a service, I try to make sure that she's informed about the details of what will be provided, and the total cost, along with a written agreement. I've never had anyone warn me about things, so I do believe it's a great thing to do for people we care about.

Only 2 days ago, I saw a dead branch hanging in a neighbor's tree. It was about 5' long, and the large end pointed straight down....above the path they use every day to their front door. I pointed it out to them, and the woman said "Oh thank you, we'll take that down right away". Guess what.....it's still hanging! It will fall eventually, with a strong wind, and hopefully no one will be underneath it. I wouldn't chance it myself. There are enough things to be aware of, without inviting trouble.

I do agree that we all seek connection, but it can come through so many avenues at hardly any cost at all. I would advise anyone who feels the need to connect, to look at volunteering for something that resonates with you. This can bring meaningful connection along with oxytocin, and even improved health!

Podfish, I think Hummingbird IS saying it's ok to be swindled since there are higher values being served...

But let's put this is a bigger context for a moment. How many of us will admit to putting up with being bullied--sometimes cruelly--in programs like est? Some of us pay heaps of money to chat with "your own live psychic" and keep coming back for more, cynically doled out with little teasers to return.
...
There are deep, biological and ancient yearnings in us humans for meaningful connection. ...

[hummingbird]

Podfish, I think Hummingbird IS saying it's ok to be swindled since there are higher values being served...not in so many words of course, and H please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, I'm not saying that. Thanks for asking though. It's terrible how quickly folks posting here jump to put words in another's mouth. I makes me hesitate about posting.

The only thing I will say about swindling is that it is present every where in our lives. I've seen the graceful art of off-ripping in legit businesses in down town...by the business owners. I have known few landlords who are not out to swindle and exploit to some degree. I just don't get why we are so quick to judge. What these women are doing is certainly no worse than the stock market. Doesn't someone have to lose for you to win there?

What if these circles are evolving? What if the skeletal pyramid has layed the tracks for something new and different? Is it possible that they have not been penetrated by the devil himself ? Is it possible for something to emerge that is not your old black and white 11% game?

Maybe something cool is happening and the folks posting here just don't get it. Maybe our obsession with justice has narrowed our view. Frozen our nuro-pathways. Constricted. Closed. Tight.

Regardless of the of the opinions stated here, I am still grateful to these women for bending the rules. As we speak they are experimenting with new ways of working with and looking at relationship to money. They are not doing workshops. They are on the ground running. That takes courage. I'm sure there will be something valuable to learn for all involved. I actually fully support the $5000. Jump off and go for it!!! For most women throwing down $5000 takes a leap of faith. The act in and of itself is worth it.... unless you are looking at the numbers only...

The fact that the numbers seem to be the most important piece to some saddens me. I attempt to live for the experience, not the numbers. Many of the women in the groups might be attempting to do the same. If they are, perhaps they are richer than us all. I yearn for the day when my life is not ruled by fear and numbers. I hope the rest of my species finds a way out as well.

I once gave something I loved away, for the practice. I still think about it 10 years later. Good lesson. Good experience.

$5000 is only money. It's not my money these women are playing with, so I will just leave it be.

I do not support this witch hunt.

I am sorry for those whose limited views have painted such an ugly picture of a creative process.

It's really just money.... no different than anything else we chose to value.

[PDines]

Wow, Hummingbird, what a fascinating viewpoint. I appreciate you sharing it just so we can see it. Of course, anyone is allowed to steer their life by any viewpoint they want. However I think there's some key things you're missing/conflating.

* What I hear you say is that it's only money. But it's not. It's trust betrayed, relationship betrayed, lies told, people hurt. These experiences are real, this pain is real, but seems to appear nowhere in the story you're telling here. Do you just not care? Do you need others to be willing to be ripped off and not complain?

* Also, you might not care about money, but do you have a right to tell people that they're not supposed to care if their money is taken under false pretenses? For some people, money is not a pure evil to be avoided, nor the opposite of consciousness. Instead, it represents work accomplished and the ability to pay their rent and the ability to create possibility in their lives. They have a right to get honest information about what the deal is when they give that money to someone else.

* As to the other aspects of these circles -- the connection, empowerment, etc. -- it's not that these qualities in life aren't valuable -- they're very valuable. It's just of concern if they're used as a coverup to keep people from seeing or discussing that people's money is being taken on the basis of lies. I think all the qualities of empowerment and community and lessons can be achieved in tangible real ways without lying and ripping people off. In fact, I think they're better accomplished that way. So I'm becoming increasingly astonished that some people can't seem to imagine those positive paths to those outcomes. Really, we can't imagine better ways to learn and connect??

* I hear you say that there's a range of people making a profit in our society -- as if there's no difference in people making it by lying vs. other means -- as if other people being dishonest makes it right and we should never call it out. But I think it's appropriate to call it out in constructive ways in many places, and to aspire for a culture that's better than that. Without accountability, it won't get better but worse.

But I don't think that because New Age language is used those people should be exempt from being called out, or that every conversation needs to discuss every instance in a society. That's too unwieldy. I think it's reasonable to talk about one case at a time. Plus this is a situation where people can have a direct effect -- by watching out for the real financial structure of offers that they receive. Also, to me there's something especially painful here -- where the community relationships and new age language hide the real game and result in people being ripped off by a friend, by someone who says they care about you and want to empower you. Can't you see why that's more personally painful than for ex. some big financial wheeling-and-dealing on Wall Street?

* It seems that you think it's more conscious to not care about money. But I don't think you see how that's enabling to the person doing the ripoffs. If you're willing to be ripped off to get lessons, that's your choice. But I don't think it's compassionate or conscious not to care if other people get ripped off, or to object when people try to warn others about how it's being done.

* I hear you say that you've learned by giving away things that matter to you. That's your journey, and was your choice. But can you really not see the difference between you knowing that you're giving a gift when you give it, vs. thinking that it's an investment and you'll get it back and more? Doesn't it matter what the promise is?

* I hear that you think people bringing this up is a witch hunt, unfairly attacking people who are doing cool innovative things around money, and that people stuck in our materialistic paradigm just can't get it. But to me that conflates a bunch of things that aren't the same.

First, I don't like non-fact-based personal attacks in general -- but I don't see those being made here. People have stated their concerns strongly, but not as personal attacks but by describing in a factual way how these covert pyramid schemes are cloaked by pretty language. We've also talked about some people being more innocent than others in understanding why this structure is a ripoff. So what I see us doing is warning people about a hidden hazard in the road, so they can better protect themselves. Certainly if they don't care about the problems with this structure, they can still choose to participate -- and bear the consequences. But there are many folks who would prefer to accurately know when something is a gift vs. an investment that will be returned and multiplied. And they would rather not recruit their friends to be ripped off either. Or pay the consequences of all that. They'd rather be informed so they can make more conscious choices. It concerns me that you object to that.

Second, to me, the pyramid structure is the opposite of consciousness, and is totally consistent with the cold-hearted materialistic culture that you decry. I don't think a person of integrity would create this financial structure. If people are doing cool innovative things, great - as long as they're making honest claims instead of lying to get people's money. I don't hear people here making blanket statements that negate being innovative. We're just objecting when it's covering up a ripoff. That's a key distinction that's being made, that I don't hear reflected in your story. Is there really no way to innovate without lying to people about whether they'll get their money back or not?

>> The bottom line to me is that I think your approach is a setup for someone to get ripped off. I want to create a world that's safe for idealism and love and growth and all sorts of wonderful things. But I've also had to learn that some people aren't working to create that world, but instead are taking advantage of those ideals and creating a world that's unsafe instead. They're like predators and will say anything to get money. You might not care about money, but they do, and they're glad to take it off your hands! They look for people who are idealistic rather than street smart, who are willing to be ripped off to get a lesson, who don't believe in accountability. You might be fine with being treated that way -- but a lot of people aren't. And to me love, compassion, empowerment, and consciousness need to be based on a foundation of caring about other people and acting from integrity -- or it's just the old game in new clothing.

>> Which makes me wonder -- have you ever played a role in one of these circles? Did you lose money or make a profit? Perhaps that's influencing the arguments that you're making?

No, I'm not saying that. Thanks for asking though. It's terrible how quickly folks posting here jump to put words in another's mouth....

[joybird]

The thing is that it is easy enough to see that these circles/pyramids are evolving in the direction of more evolved sounding rhetoric. But the nature of the scheme has not evolved. I did one 25 years ago- it also was about support and bending the rules (which is part of why I loved it until I figured it out- hooray for bending the rules! really). We were told we were laying tracks for something new to emerge. We wanted new things for ourselves and others and our relationships to money. NONE of that has happened, because this scheme is based on not speaking the whole truth. And new great things do not flow out of lies and deception.

The support, the looking at how we perceive receiving, how we relate to giving are cool and powerful. I am not looking at this with a closed, constricted mind. I WAS there. All of the possibilities were so exciting.

It is still a pyramid scheme where most people will lose money.And that is not spoken about honestly or directly. If all were told the full truth and came to join with choice about it fine. But that is not so. I am not looking at numbers only. I am looking at a lack of honesty in asking new women in.

Joy

[Shandi]

Gratitude just doesn't say enough about your compassionate insight and intelligence in speaking to this topic. I so appreciate your willingness to take the time to share your truest feelings and perspective, with no need to attack or criticize another's point of view. You are a real treasure in my book!

Wow, Hummingbird, what a fascinating viewpoint. I appreciate you sharing it just so we can see it. Of course, anyone is allowed to steer their life by any viewpoint they want. However I think there's some key things you're missing/conflating....

[Shandi]

I agree with you on one thing for sure, and that is "I'm sure there will be something valuable to learn for all involved". Those who win, and those who don't, all learn something of value, as perceived by them.

The thing about the stock market, the lottery, or gambling at the local casino (which draws a lot of criticism!) that's different than the "women's circle" way of investing, is that we know up front that we're gambling, and the odds really aren't in our favor, but we want to try anyway, because we know that if we don't play we can't win,. In the "circle", we are told that our chances are good to not only get back our original investment, but to make a "killing" (so to speak) by getting 4, 5, maybe even 6 times our investment! And if we don't have the money, our sisters will "provide" it because they really care about us, and want us to succeed in making this hunk of cash. And, since we're all in this wonderful, caring, spiritual circle together, it's a "win-win". Who could resist this? Who has been able to, after being approached by a dear and loving, trusted friend? Not me, not then....... but now.
You see, I did learn "something valuable", and since my life consists of sharing valuable information, this is just one more bit to pass on. But without manipulation or lies, or even any attachment.

We all have our separate journeys, and caring doesn't mean trying to control another adult's choices, except in cases where we are the caretakers of an adult who's mentally/emotionally impaired. Then, we have a responsibility to step in to restrain the action that may hurt them or another person. I've been called on to stop impending suicides, but have actually had second thoughts after seeing the lives of those people I saved. We can only do so much, in the end, it really is a journey of the self. We have to be aware of the signposts that are always on the path. Some might even say that our "angels" place them there to guide us. Asking for "higher guidance" may be wise counsel before making uninformed decisions that will have a large impact on our lives.

Another great exercise before playing in the circle is to ask yourself what you'd do with the $40,000-$50,000 that you're hoping to get. This will take you to revealing places in your spirit. I'd love to know what some of these actions might be. What wonderful things can a gift of money buy for ourselves and those we love, or even strangers......?

Have you ever received an unexpected large amount of money? I have. The interesting thing was that it was the exact amount of money that had been swindled from me 15 years earlier. I gave half of it away to someone in great need.

[kpage9]

Shandi, just a brief re-visit of your post and pdines'. you praised hers as having compassionate insight...and...no need to attack or criticize.

but the part she directed toward hummingbird
"Do you just not care? Do you need others to be willing to be ripped off and not complain?"

just doesn't seem so compassionate to me. it seems like an accusation of heartless sociopathy.

kathy

[Shandi]

In my perception, which is all I have, these are valid questions that have been asked of someone who blatantly refuses to acknowledge that most women have been harmed by this practice, as much as women are harmed by other practices, where manipulation is the real name of the game. This kind of similar game has been practiced by highly respected "spiritual teachers/gurus". Many people, both men and women, have become dissolutioned with the "incongruity" between the words and the actions. This practice reflects much similarity.

Maybe you two should start a circle with those who want the empowerment that comes with the "gift". You stand a chance of making some good money, and teaching others how to get out of the "black and white", patriarchal mindset.

Step up to the plate, make some calls, see how many you can get to play with you. That's the test. Words come easy. Just be sure to start with those who haven't heard much about the possible downside, or "gift" of losing money to their sisters. And of course, you won't mention it, will you? And, be sure to tell them not to say anything about it to anyone. It's just between you sisters.

Shandi, just a brief re-visit of your post and pdines'. you praised hers as having compassionate insight...and...no need to attack or criticize.

but the part she directed toward hummingbird
"Do you just not care? Do you need others to be willing to be ripped off and not complain?"

just doesn't seem so compassionate to me. it seems like an accusation of heartless sociopathy.

[hummingbird]

Where are the folks who where ripped off? Did they ask you to speak for them? I suggest the current model has evolved. Right now. Not the past. Of course you will make an effort to make me a bad guy. From where I stand the only posts in this thread that carry reason and compassion are those suggesting the narrow, panicked ones let it rest. All I see in many posts are hatred and anger dressed up as "I'm here to help" or so-called justice.

Before I read this thread I had thought little of the circles, decided to let them be not something I would join. After reading some of the writing from the the lynch mob, I see that what these women are doing is a huge threat to the status quo. This I fully and whole heartedly support. This is not because I am uneducated in these regards like you work hard to illustrate. Nor am I immoral.

So, I thank you for actively placing words in my mouth again…. The word for word lawyer style argumentation makes for not really trying to understand what is truly being said. What do you have to lose in letting your perspective rest for even a wee moment? Obviously not $5000. Needing the last word, makes for poor listening. What IS being said here by folks who disagree with you? What is between the lines? Not what do you need to prove here in order to make your point, but what is really being said? How are you being asked to stretch your mind?


I guess what I suggest is that there are no victims or perpetrators here. If we are commited to someone being the bad guy. We are just as commited to the world being full of potential victims. I'm not in that party. No way. I don't support or condone any behavior that forces any one to stay in the roll of victim. The perp/victum stance that many here give voice to says more about the writers inner experience than any thing they point the finger at.

Many of us are commited to being victims, perpetrators, or rescuers. The rescuers are completely lost with no one to save. What would you lose if the women in these circles were given responsibility for their own choices. Who would you rescue?


Again, I have never participated in these circles. I have never joined a pyramid, but have been invited to plenty. One offered cashing in on some rocking vibrators. Difficult to resist! I only support pushing the edge, I don't think money is bad, nor is earning it. I just think it's funny how rigid your opinion is. How limited and tired. Makes me yawn. I can hear the grand parents hollerin'. "Thats not the way we made money when I was a kid, I had to shovel shit for a nickel a day."

If you don't want to join the circles, please join me in not participating. Just please get of the high horse.


A total tangent, or perhaps not:

When I go to cross at main street and Hwy12 on fridays around lunch time, I cross on the side of the street that does not host the man saluting. I realize that he must have invested something big in his ideas about right and wrong, perhaps a huge part of his heart. He came out to the street a couple of years ago, after the women in black, actively opposing their peaceful stance. I realize that everything he stands for is not wrong and offensive, but because of the apparent anger he holds in delivering his message I avoid him and send him love from a distance. I'm sure there is a reason he holds so tightly to his ideas. He appears to carry trauma from a war in his body and actions. It's sad.

Since you ask the question if I'm have some dark past with these women's circles, I have to ask... Are the nay saying writers here paid by the right wing to scream and holler about anything on the internet that pushes the edges of normal for society? Are you internet trolls? In all honesty, I know you are not, but some of the rhetoric does start to appear redundant and fear based.

Fear based. Not where I want to live. No thank you.

[joybird]

I was ripped off and I speak for my self.

Joy

Where are the folks who where ripped off? Did they ask you to speak for them? ...

[hummingbird]

I'm curious about recent rip-offs. Are there any new phase rip-off postings? Also, 25 years ago were women being sponsored to join in? I know several women doing this now and most were sponsored to join. That feels like it changes the game to me. It's no longer your devil begotten old pyramid when the women at the "top" willingly sponsor others and then drop to the bottom again and start again after they receive. 11% is no longer accurate.

[Shandi]

Have you ever had your purse stolen. Ever been raped? Have you had your house broken into? Your child murdered? Would you consider any of these events "crimes"? Any "victims"? No, o.k. you're entitled to your opinion. Has there ever been a time in your life when you felt victimized? That is, before you came to your present enlightened realization of no victims/no perpetrators. How did you get to the other side of that? I would think that an enlightened person would want to share the process to bring others to a more evolved position, which would benefit ourselves and the planet.

"I suggest the current model has evolved". And I do believe that current models of many things have evolved, but you don't give any evidence of your perception on this. Is this just wishful thinking? Little girls are being targeted by online predators, which are making the whole model much easier than the old ways. But then, the little girls shouldn't be talking to strangers, ....oh yeah, that's the old model.

Before this thread, you say you thought little about circles "Before I read this thread I had thought little of the circles, decided to let them be not something I would join." I wonder if you even knew of them, but I want to believe that you did, and for some reason, you aren't telling.....why you decided not to join. If you fully and whole heartedly support them, why hesitate to join, and participate, rather than speak about something from a distance that you really haven't experienced? Something's not congruent here. I may need some help from other smarter members. Am I not seeing a clear picture?

Rather than ask "what is really being said", tell us what you "think" is really being said. Because, intelligence dictates knowledge of many perspectives and interpretations of words. We can all read different things "between the lines". Give us the benefit of your reading. One thing I get is that you think that this is a "witch hunt". Now, were witches victims, or not? If not, then why call this discussion a term well known by many as a crime. Maybe you think there were no Holocaust victims either. Or even better, that it never happened. Will you stand up for your beliefs, or shrink away in silence?

I can get into the perception of no victims, and no perpetrators, especially with the belief that we all "unconsciously" choose our reality. Even an unborn baby may choose her earthly life from beyond this realm. But we're talking about "conscious" choices, and how we make them, based on the information we have at hand. How else do we make all the daily choices we're faced with? I avoid going into unlit places at night, not out of fear, but from available information at hand. I don't talk on my cell phone or text while driving, because nothing is more important at that moment than focusing on the task at hand, which is moving a powerfully heavy piece of equipment that can maim and kill in seconds, if I'm not paying attention. Fear or wisdom?

It's interesting to me that you share your choice to cross away from the man who salutes, and instead avoid his anger, and send him love from a distance. What might happen if you spoke with this man? Is avoidance the best use of your judgement, and I think, perhaps a bit of fear?

You aren't bad. What if there is no bad or good? Try this instead....."Wanted or Unwanted", which places the responsibility on me, not anyone or anything. A manipulative process which robs anyone of their money, or peace of mind is for me....."UNWANTED", and it seems for you, too. Since you've been approached several times, and didn't take the bait. Also "UNWANTED" is this ongoing discussion by a "lynch mob" which has proved uncomfortable for you. I'd say, it may be time to re-focus your energy on things that you whole heartedly support....."evolved women's circles". Know about any? Please share with us when you find them. This could change the whole direction of this thread!

I suggest the current model has evolved. Right now. ...

I guess what I suggest is that there are no victims or perpetrators here. If we are commited to someone being the bad guy. We are just as commited to the world being full of potential victims. I'm not in that party. No way. I don't support or condone any behavior that forces any one to stay in the roll of victim. The perp/victum stance that many here give voice to says more about the writers inner experience than any thing they point the finger at.

Many of us are commited to being victims, perpetrators, or rescuers. ...

[Svea]

Some version of the Women's gifting circle seems to be floating around again these days.

What do you think about it? Is it a pyramid? Is it a scam? Is it a valid way to create wealth, community, inspiration, focus, and other worthy non-financial outcomes?

Did you participate the last time around? How did it work out for you? Are you doing it again?

....just a reminder of where this topic started. We probably won't hear from too many current participants, as it would be counter productive for them.

I for one would love to see all the energy, money and time that gets thrown at these gifting circles applied directly to the local economy and local community as a whole, and not just a select few who hang out in a secret circle trying to recruit others into it to keep it going. At least that is what it appears to be. If anyone can make a valid case for how these gifting circles are adding value to our local economy and culture, then please lay it all out for us here to understand.

Svea

[podfish]

I'm curious about recent rip-offs. Are there any new phase rip-off postings? Also, 25 years ago were women being sponsored to join in? I know several women doing this now and most were sponsored to join. That feels like it changes the game to me. It's no longer your devil begotten old pyramid when the women at the "top" willingly sponsor others and then drop to the bottom again and start again after they receive. 11% is no longer accurate.

you really really do want to find a way that this is all good, don't you?

The willingness of women to sponsor others and start over is sweet of them, probably. It could still be cover, since they've gained more by their brief stay at the top of the pyramid than it can ever cost them to take another trip through it. Remember, the math works both ways - no individual is going to lose the same amount that a winner will reap. It's just that there are a lot more players than winners.

But sure, despite your fear that we're all hateful and trying to go all lawyerly on you, most posters haven't been focused on disparaging the reasons that people want to participate. Many do, however, question whether pure motives "change the game" as you feel they do, when the game itself is harmful. Personally, I engage in plenty of activities that some might consider harmful. To me, the reason that's acceptable is that I'm willing to and interested in understanding the risks vs. the appeal of the activity. You seem to start down that path in some of your posts, but then you wander off into attacking the validity of even raising those questions or the motives of those asking them (" The perp/victum stance that many here give voice to says more about the writers inner experience" and "Are the nay saying writers here paid by the right wing to scream and holler about anything on the internet that pushes the edges of normal for society? Are you internet trolls?" - just for example).

A lot of Wacco posts are focused on issues that are bad for the community, or are attempts at getting people to think more critically about their world and their actions. This fits right into that tradition. It's rare that the O.P. will acknowledge the validity of any critiques, or show much sign of rethinking their position. Not being in the targeted demographic of these circles, I had little idea how widespread they seem to be. The information in the posts in this thread may help a lot of people avoid these questionable groups in their quests to find community and support.