Gangstalking Conspiracy?

[arthunter]

Not so fast, Dixon ... the information that you provided was new to me ( thank you ) and so I did a bit more research ... it seems that Kucinich gave an interview following the changes in his bill in which he states that the changes were made "under pressure" ... with all of the suppression of information lately ( whistle-blowers jailed, journalists disappearing ) I think that there's a good chance that he was just silenced ...

https://www.rense.com/general20/cc.htm

It's a bit misleading to only give half the story. The bill you refer to is HR 2977. It wasn't written by Kucinich. It was written by some friends of his who have some ideas that even you, arthunter, would probably find pretty strange (aliens, time travel, etc.). Apparently Kucinich didn't read the bill before introducing it, and he later disassociated himself from it--an embarrassing episode for him. It certainly didn't help his already slim chance at the Presidency--a shame, since I think he's one of the few good, progressive politicians. Here's a good article on the whole mess:
https://contrailscience.com/kucinich...s-and-hr-2977/
And here's a relevant excerpt from the article:
"So what’s Kucinich's involvement in this? It's difficult to say. Kucinich is anti-war, so perhaps that's his motivation. He does have a lot of new-age, UFO-believing, friends, but he's also running for president. When he was made aware of the nature of the "exotic weapons" language in the bill, it was re-written, and when questioned about it, he said "I'm not into that. Understand me. When I found out that was in there, I said, 'Look, I'm not interested in going there.'"

[arthunter]

You might very well be right, Dixon, ... we will never know ... but before you make assumptions you should educate yourself ... here's a good article about this story and the weapons involved ...

https://communities.washingtontimes....yard-shooting/

Okay, here's what I make of it after having read the article you link to: All of the facts reported are consistent with a psychotic disorder. I understand that they're also consistent with your hypothesis. I'm leaning toward the psychotic disorder interpretation, partly because, even if the scenario you describe is really happening, I assume paranoid psychosis of various types is more common (in the millions in this country alone). Also, even if we assume that the voice commands were planted there by someone, why would Alexis choose to follow the horrible commands? Hearing voices is one thing; being crazy enough to attribute godlike authority and following the orders is another. The people I've personally known who've done horrible things due to command hallucinations (such as John, a very pleasant local guy who cut off his own hand because the voice told him to), all had pretty classic psychotic disorders.

[arthunter]

and here's more from the Washington Times about the shooter ...

https://communities.washingtontimes....ncy-attacks-t/

[kpage9]

arthunter (and alexis?) i'm not seeing here the post i'm referencing...rats! starting to think there's nefarious forces at work!

i read the article from the Washington Times, and am extracting this quote:

"While Boorda ostensibly shot himself because of an imminent story in the U.S. press that he was in the habit of wearing medals he never earned some lurid reports have surfaced that he was murdered because he was about to reveal sinister undertakings by the Navy in mind control and brain warfare.”

ok you guys answer me this: do you acknowledge the existence of mass delusion?

kathy

[arthunter]

Kathy,
Before I answer your question, can you give me an example of mass delusion? ... and please don't reference ancient times ( the world being flat, etc. ) ... I mean in the current century ...

arthunter (and alexis?) i'm not seeing here the post i'm referencing...rats! starting to think there's nefarious forces at work!

i read the article from the Washington Times, and am extracting this quote:

"While Boorda ostensibly shot himself because of an imminent story in the U.S. press that he was in the habit of wearing medals he never earned some lurid reports have surfaced that he was murdered because he was about to reveal sinister undertakings by the Navy in mind control and brain warfare.”

ok you guys answer me this: do you acknowledge the existence of mass delusion?

kathy

[arthunter]

Another targeted individual speaks out, and I sincerely hope that he's wrong about what's going on ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7grbMw_s3M#t=1165

[arthunter]

and also Kathy, ... how do you see our nation at the moment? ... do you think that it's right that we are all being spied upon? ... do you think that it's right that whistle-blowers are being jailed? ... do you think that it was right that the Occupy movement was infiltrated and destroyed? .... do you think that it's right that many that are trying to tell the truth are being destroyed with Cointelpro tactics? ...

Do you believe in cover ups? ... do you believe that our government has silenced many serious threats to government policy? .... ( both in the past and in the present ) ... do you believe that disinformation agents are present in abundance on the internet? ... do you believe that our government has engaged in non consensual experimentation? ... do you think that a lot of our government has been bought up by corporate interests?

do you trust our government not to abuse it's power?

Kathy,
Before I answer your question, can you give me an example of mass delusion? ... and please don't reference ancient times ( the world being flat, etc. ) ... I mean in the current century ...

[arthunter]

and one more point, Kathy ... what kind of mass delusion includes high-positioned government whistle-blowers, an ex-governor, a ton of intelligent authors, policemen, doctors, lawyers, tv reporters, journalists, activists, giant support groups, etc. etc. ... isn't it more likely that they're trying to tell us something?

and also Kathy, ... how do you see our nation at the moment? ... do you think that it's right that we are all being spied upon? ... do you think that it's right that whistle-blowers are being jailed? ... do you think that it was right that the Occupy movement was infiltrated and destroyed? .... do you think that it's right that many that are trying to tell the truth are being destroyed with Cointelpro tactics? ...

Do you believe in cover ups? ... do you believe that our government has silenced many serious threats to government policy? .... ( both in the past and in the present ) ... do you believe that disinformation agents are present in abundance on the internet? ... do you believe that our government has engaged in non consensual experimentation? ... do you think that a lot of our government has been bought up by corporate interests?

do you trust our government not to abuse it's power?

[kpage9]

Arthunter you challenge us--out here, the skeptics about gangstalking--to "do the research", and I take you seriously. I DO check out the links you post, and have been sharing what I find. It's not ME discrediting the individuals i report back on, it's their own words and actions.

For example, Ted Gunderson, who was in fact an FBI agent with lots of responsibility. The following is also true and easy to find in Wikipedia:

'Gunderson warned about the proliferation of secret Satanic groups, and the danger posed by the New World Order, a shadow government that would be controlling the US government.^[9] He also claimed that a "slave auction" in which children were sold to men in turbans had been held in Las Vegas, that four thousand ritual human sacrifices are performed in New York City every year, and that the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City was carried out by the US government.^[9] Gunderson believed that in the US there is a secret widespread network of groups who kidnap children and infants, and subject them to Satanic ritual abuse and subsequent human sacrifice.^[10][11]"

In response to our characterization of delusion on a mass level, you say it couldn't be--because there are so many people, including doctors, lawyers etc on board. Well the truth is that delusion is honestly an equal-opportunity condition and anyone can be hit by it. Brains, money, youth, position--doesn't matter.

I'm not sure why a few of us can't let go of this conversation, if we're so sure you're just spouting delusional nonsense Maybe it's because one leg of your position is so awful and so true--about real suppression of the likes of MLK, and government lies, and massive covert surveillance. All true, and all so deserving of our attention.

And maybe it's because you seem like a lovely person in other respects--I really appreciated your kind words of concern about my son. And--I may be wrong about this--but you do seem deeply troubled by your convictions, so I keep feeling moved to try and combat them. Probably nunna my beeswax.

But given that i can't let go yet, I put to you my question from before: do you acknowledge the existence of mass delusion? Would YOU consider doing some homework outside the laser-focused search for yet more mentions of gangstalking? Like would you look up "mass delusion" and just read about it?

kathy

I quoted a line of information from a reputable source ... thank you for adding your information ... it does not change the point I was making though ...

Let's see, you've managed to discredit Dr.John Hall ... and me ... and anyone else who's complaining about this abuse ... would you like to have a go at the rest of the links? ... you haven't addressed Ted Gunderson, Jesse Ventura, Robert Duncan, the Santa Cruz Police, a couple of TV stations, or the other author that I mentioned ... I can also give you a list of large support groups, many well published activists, and many more authors who have written about this ... if you're interested, that is ...

[arthunter]

Kathy,

Thank you for your concern but I am fine.

This whole thing started with my warning about organized crime in our community, and I'm not the only one who has sounded this alarm. I do believe that this is a part of the new Cointelpro program ( government silencing and suppression ) and I could certainly name others in Sonoma County who suspect this as well. Also, I am in contact with several residents who are victims of government experimentation but prefer to remain anonymous, but one is writing a book about it ...

You are forgetting a very important point here ... I have stated several times that I have proof of what I've gone through ... I can not disclose this proof as I am now involved in two class action lawsuits about this, but this would prove to you that this is not a delusion. Others also have proof..... I also have a whistle-blower ... a lot of people have been involved in this harassment and one promised to expose this should I become diseased or should I die. There's a lot of blackmail and coercion going on and not everyone is happy about their role in this abuse. This person realized, like you, that I am a sweet, caring person, and that I didn't deserve this ... I'm very grateful to this person ...

I did look up mass delusions and most of them seem to involve occult issues like satanism and witchcraft ... this is a crime protocol that closely mirrors Cointelpro ... it is not a mass delusion ... sorry ...

If you look at this movie trailer, at the bottom you will see that there's approximately 300,000 victims of this protocol in America. The perpetrators of this huge injustice cannot silence us all ... this story is coming out and I don't think that anything will stop that from happening at this point ....

Now I've answered your question, ... perhaps you could answer my questions?

https://www.newbreedmovie.com

Arthunter you challenge us--out here, the skeptics about gangstalking--to "do the research", and I take you seriously. I DO check out the links you post, and have been sharing what I find. It's not ME discrediting the individuals i report back on, it's their own words and actions.

For example, Ted Gunderson, ...

I'm not sure why a few of us can't let go of this conversation, if we're so sure you're just spouting delusional nonsense Maybe it's because one leg of your position is so awful and so true--about real suppression of the likes of MLK, and government lies, and massive covert surveillance. All true, and all so deserving of our attention.

And maybe it's because you seem like a lovely person in other respects--I really appreciated your kind words of concern about my son. And--I may be wrong about this--but you do seem deeply troubled by your convictions, so I keep feeling moved to try and combat them. Probably nunna my beeswax.

But given that i can't let go yet, I put to you my question from before: do you acknowledge the existence of mass delusion? Would YOU consider doing some homework outside the laser-focused search for yet more mentions of gangstalking? Like would you look up "mass delusion" and just read about it?

kathy

[kpage9]

first, i'm happy to answer your questions if i can--didn't see any though.

second, i can't imagine where you looked up (mass) delusions and found mostly satanism and witchcraft. here's a quote--again from good old wiki:
Persecutory delusions

Main article: Persecutory delusion
Persecutory delusions are the most common type of delusions and involve the theme of being followed, harassed, cheated, poisoned or drugged, conspired against, spied on, attacked, or otherwise obstructed in the pursuit of goals. Persecutory delusions are a condition in which the affected person wrongly believes that they are being persecuted. Specifically, they have been defined as containing three central elements:^{[12][page needed]} The individual thinks that

1. harm is occurring, or is going to occur.
2. the persecutor(s) has(have) the intention to cause harm.
3. they are constantly being prejudged or profiled.

I have to say it seems strange to hear that you're fine! In spite of such an unbroken stream of horrible things happening to you .

k

Kathy,

Thank you for your concern but I am fine. ...

[arthunter]

Kathy,

I'm getting the feeling that you're not really reading my words ... my questions to you are a few comments back in this thread ...

I also mentioned that I and others have proof of this protocol ... did you miss that?

I also think that there might be other psychological conditions that we should be discussing here like denial and cognitive dissonance ...

I have published enough factual information about this protocol to fill a small publication and I could fill a book if you like ... delusional people don't usually organize into global activists groups with daily sophisticated conference calls, ....they usually don't initiate ( and win ) multiple lawsuits ... they usually aren't investigated and confirmed by ex-governor, ex-Navy Seal, public figures ... they usually don't petition Congress, and the President, and the Senators ( pages of petitions - look it up ) ... they usually don't testify, en masse, to the president's Bioethics Committee ... they usually don't involve the UN's Special Rapporteur on Torture .... they usually don't write books with well documented facts to back up their claims ... and I could go on and on ...

I have to wonder, after all that I've shared, why you are so convinced that this is all a delusion? ... are you unaware of history and the great harm done to innocent people in the past? ... are you unaware that the diagnosis of mental illness has been used to discredit political dissent repeatedly? ... why are you not looking at these possibilities ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry

https://geeldon.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/the-use-of-mental-health-system-to-silence-targets/

and I have trouble accepting this because it's so awful, but here is real information presented in a lawsuit against the NSA ...

https://www.whale.to/b/nsa7.html

To answer your question, .... I am fine because, in spite of this harassment, I am engaged in the most important role of my life, that of exposing massive corruption and injustice ... I believe that this covert protocol will absolutely destroy any freedom or democracy in the world ... I believe that this is a method of controlling the population and I'm fighting for the children out there who deserve a fair chance ... this keeps me strong ....

first, i'm happy to answer your questions if i can--didn't see any though.

second, i can't imagine where you looked up (mass) delusions and found mostly satanism and witchcraft. here's a quote--again from good old wiki:
Persecutory delusions

Main article: Persecutory delusion
Persecutory delusions are the most common type of delusions and involve the theme of being followed, harassed, cheated, poisoned or drugged, conspired against, spied on, attacked, or otherwise obstructed in the pursuit of goals. ...

[kpage9]

Arthunter I'm having the scary thought that you might be seeing me as part of the oppressor network--part of those who "use mental illness diagnoses to discredit political dissent". Scary because if you do see me as part of the apparatus organized to torment targeted individuals--what might you do to ME? I am no longer just a fellow person to you.

When we take this out of the theoretical and into the personal...which is after all where we live...the fear gets contagious. If indeed it's fear you're feeling. You say you feel strong and fine. I'm still having a hard time reconciling your experience of constant, random awfulness and your apparent peace of mind.

kathy

[arthunter]

Kathy,

Nothing could be further from the truth ... I have no reason at all to suspect that you are trying to harm me ... I'm just confused because you are ignoring my questions and the facts that I have presented ... that puzzles me .... you seem like a rational person so why would you continue on with this conversation in this way?

The information that I have shared is meant to educate people ( you included ) about one aspect of this protocol ... it is covered up by a diagnosis of mental illness, and there is a long history of this tactic being used for political reasons.

I am not fearful ... far from it ... I have a great deal of support any time that I want it ... I can give you contact information for at least one hundred other people who will verify this protocol ... that also gives me strength ... one is a middle aged emergency room physician, who didn't just go delusional one day and decide to search the internet for a good fantasy ...

It is you that I'm worried about because you are so insistent on portraying me as delusional that you are forgetting what it is to converse. Could you answer my questions please?

Arthunter I'm having the scary thought that you might be seeing me as part of the oppressor network--part of those who "use mental illness diagnoses to discredit political dissent". Scary because if you do see me as part of the apparatus organized to torment targeted individuals--what might you do to ME? I am no longer just a fellow person to you.

When we take this out of the theoretical and into the personal...which is after all where we live...the fear gets contagious. If indeed it's fear you're feeling. You say you feel strong and fine. I'm still having a hard time reconciling your experience of constant, random awfulness and your apparent peace of mind.

kathy

[arthunter]

Kathy ( and any one else interested ),

Please do some research so that we can talk intelligently about this.

On this page you find 4 reports from mainstream news, 5 radio interviews, 11 press releases, and more ... all concerning this subject ... this is the organization which assisted the FBI with the Aaron Alexis case, as I mentioned previously ... the president of this organization is an ex- military- NSA employee. There are conference calls, many international which I can publish as well ... this organization has 2500 members, ... all victims ... the last press release featured the following speakers, just to give you an idea of the caliber of the members ...

EVENT SPEAKERS: (in alphabetical order)
Chris Crowder, Mechanical Engineer
Dr. John Hall, Anesthesiologist, Author, A New Breed: Satellite Terrorism in America
Robert Duncan O'Finioan, former Manchurian Candidate
Rep. Jim Guest, Missouri House of Representatives
Cyndie Spanier, Ph.D., Clinical Psychologist
Dr. Terry Robertson, Anesthesiologist
Tim White, Human Rights Activist, Telecommunications Engineer
Katherine Moore, former Vice-Mayor, Wilmington, NC
Mary Ann Stratton, Human Rights Activist
Michael Lauria, commercial airline pilot, ret.
Joan Germano, Real Estate Agent
Jo Rabjohn, Author
Brian Uram, Real Estate Agent

https://www.freedomfchs.com/id21.html

[arthunter]

I just reread this comment, Kathy, and I'd like to answer your question ...

What would I do to you if I thought that you were involved with this? ... I'd do my best to ignore you ... I'd pity you ... I'd pray for you ...

Your fear is completely unjustified ....now who's paranoid? ...

Very few targets act out in any vengeful way because we all know that framing is a huge part of this protocol ...

You've asked me how I manage to keep my composure during this harassment ... well research and activism is one way that I do that ... trying to help other targets is another way that I do that ... I'm also very good at selective focus ... I see goodness and beauty all around me, I certainly don't have to focus on this sick, twisted crap all of the time ..

I'm a ten year volunteer at Home Hospice in Sebastopol .... I'm at the thrift store on Saturdays ... come by yourself and see how good I am at coping ....

Arthunter I'm hayving the scary thought that you might be seeing me as part of the oppressor network--part of those who "use mental illness diagnoses to discredit political dissent". Scary because if you do see me as pbart of the apparatus organized to tormyent targeted individuals--what might you do to ME? I am no longer just a fellow person to you.

When we take this out of the theoretical and into the personal...which is after all where we live...the fear gets contagious. If indeed it's fear you're feeling. You say you feel strong and fine. I'm still having a hard time reconciling your experience of constant, random awfulness and your apparent peace of mind.

kathy

[kpage9]

1, a tiny detail: "alphabetical order"? not in the same alphabet i use.

2. answer your questions? honestly i would if i could find them, and if i had any answers.

3. (and most significant, i think) i actually AM trying to discredit your beliefs by way of a mental health diagnosis (you probably noticed). so how would i not be part of the effort to target you? i mean...why exempt me from that charge?

[arthunter]

Kathy,

At this point I think that we should just agree to disagree ... I'm sorry but I'm not really interested in conversing with someone who ignores what I write ... this just feels like a waste of my time ...

Thank you for your interest and good luck to you and your son ... I wish you every happiness and I wish him a speedy recovery ...

1, a tiny detail: "alphabetical order"? not in the same alphabet i use.

2. answer your questions? honestly i would if i could find them, and if i had any answers.
t
3. (and most significant, i think) i actually AM trying to discredit your beliefs by way of a mental health diagnosis (you probably noticed). so how would i not be part of the effort to target you? i mean...why exempt me from that charge?

[arthunter]

This is a link to a page of Mark Rich's book "The Hidden Evil" .... if you want to read the whole book then just hit the link at the bottom of the page which will take you to the table of contents .... many people agree with Mark, especially since this protocol is being reported internationally and also because his book is so well documented .... it's a fascinating read ...

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/hiddenevil/hiddenevil17.htm

[arthunter]

This is a talk given by Dr. Terry Robertson and Dr. John Hall and I believe that it was given at Sonoma State ... Listen to this please and tell me if you think that these people are delusional ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZtfpqVxmzU#t=916

[jbox]

This is a talk given by Dr. Terry Robertson and Dr. John Hall and I believe that it was given at Sonoma State ... Listen to this please and tell me if you think that these people are delusional ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZtfpqVxmzU#t=916

OK, Arthunter, everybody believes you believe. Now for our peace of mind and for yours, please give this thing a rest. Go do something else for a while.

[Rick Grie]

I can attest to what I called "psychological lynching" in my color of law complaint's addendum I recently filed with the Justice Dept and FBI. I had to close my law office in 2012 in Pinellas County, Florida due to continued hacking of my internet access, email accounts, iphone (personal still hacked), phony potential clients constantly calling me, etc. I was a member in good standing of the Florida Bar, without disciplinary history, since 1977. My home of over 20 years is now in foreclosure and my previous excellent credit is ruined. I have also been impliedly threatened with disability and selective enforcement of the law.

The "reasons"? I dated the wife of a high ranking law enforcement officer (major) while I was her divorce attorney in 2003. We dated until 2011. She was a neighbor I only knew in passing who had told me of her five year plan of divorce, but called me a year later to represent her. I have been smeared as a pedophile and child molester for viewing a lot of adult consenting porn, some gay, while I was a Big Brother. I would gladly be tested to disprove the smear. I never would have a gay/bisexual encounter. I did not involve my Little Brother in any way with porn, etc. Of course, local police deny even harassing me.

I was harassed by Pinellas County Sheriff's Office detective cars by my house for a month just after my ex-girlfriend and I started dating - illegal, but understandable. But five years later beginning in 2008 (the ex-husband had retired a few months earlier), I started getting harassed by law enforcement vehicles, almost daily, for two years. This type of harassment tapered off and more subtle harassment - "psychological lynching" - began by people harassing me in ordinary places (a few I know, but most I don't). I later learned that this phenomenon is called gang stalking, community mobbing, etc. I don't buy into the articles claiming mind control, microwave bombardment, etc. I recently created a website (url - systematicpoliceharassment-pinellascountyflorida; title - My Five Years of Systematic Police Harassment in Pinellas County Florida") detailing some of the incidents.

[ Rick Grie joined WaccoBB today and is based in Florida - Barry]

[arthunter]

jbox,

I wasn't the one to resurrect this subject and I didn't initiate this thread. When Dixon began this thread I thought that we were finally going to look at the facts of this, and I was happy to supply those. This meeting of the minds, which took place in our own back yard, is a very important addition to the body of knowledge which I've already shared.

If you have no interest in this protocol, which could be accurately described as one of the most potent threats to human rights on the planet, then I suggest that you just skip over these posts. You would be less inclined to "give this thing a rest" if it were your rights being trampled on ... and you know, someday it might be your rights on the chopping block ...

OK, Arthunter, everybody believes you believe. Now for our peace of mind and for yours, please give this thing a rest. Go do something else for a while.

[arthunter]

Thanks so much, Rick, for coming forward with your story.

This story is very similar to stories that I hear every day from others. This is a total abuse of power, which is why I'm trying to expose it. This has nothing to do with terrorism or criminality and everything to do with personal revenge. Many women who are subjected to this harassment suspect that it is because of turning down advances or breaking away from someone with "connections" ... and their whole lives are being destroyed, just as you describe ... slander, financial sabotage, harassment, stalking ... etc.

I will look at your website a bit later. In the meantime, please realize that you are not alone and that thousands of other people are coming forward with similar stories.

I can attest to what I called "psychological lynching" in my color of law complaint's addendum I recently filed with the Justice Dept and FBI. ...

[arthunter]

Yet another petition ... this one from the president of Freedom from Covert Surveillance and Harassment ... only awareness can stop this ...

https://www.change.org/petitions/u-s...est&utm_term=1

[Dixon]

I wasn't the one to resurrect this subject and I didn't initiate this thread. When Dixon began this thread...

Wait a minute! I started this thread? No way! Not that it matters much, but just for the sake of accuracy, this thread was broken off from a different thread by Barry because it had become tangential. The fact that Barry chose to "start" this thread with a post from me doesn't mean I started this conversation. If you look at my post that's now designated #1 in this thread, you'll see I was responding to comments on this subject made by you, arthunter. Let's try to keep our facts straight.

[Barry]

Kathy,

I'm getting the feeling that you're not really reading my words ... my questions to you are a few comments back in this thread ...

I believe she is referring to this post.

[Barry]

TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS THREAD:

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[kpage9]

Assuming these are the questions you think i didn't answer...well, a couple posts ago i added my dismay to yours about all of this. Really. All of it.

and no i do not trust our government not to abuse its power. but i do not think it has a vast coordinated network of people wreaking havoc in the lives and minds of regular people.

kathy

and also Kathy, ... how do you see our nation at the moment? ... do you think that it's right that we are all being spied upon? ... do you think that it's right that whistle-blowers are being jailed? ... do you think that it was right that the Occupy movement was infiltrated and destroyed? .... do you think that it's right that many that are trying to tell the truth are being destroyed with Cointelpro tactics? ...

Do you believe in cover ups? ... do you believe that our government has silenced many serious threats to government policy? .... ( both in the past and in the present ) ... do you believe that disinformation agents are present in abundance on the internet? ... do you believe that our government has engaged in non consensual experimentation? ... do you think that a lot of our government has been bought up by corporate interests?

do you trust our government not to abuse it's power?

[arthunter]

Oh sorry ... I had no idea ... well then thank you Barry for giving me the chance to present this information ...

Wait a minute! I started this thread? No way! Not that it matters much, but just for the sake of accuracy, this thread was broken off from a different thread by Barry because it had become tangential. The fact that Barry chose to "start" this thread with a post from me doesn't mean I started this conversation. If you look at my post that's now designated #1 in this thread, you'll see I was responding to comments on this subject made by you, arthunter. Let's try to keep our facts straight.