Gangstalking Conspiracy?

[Dixon]

...I don't quite agree ... personal experience when added to many other cases of identical personal experience...

Again, let's not confuse our direct experience with the inferences we make from it.

...carries a bit of weight ...

Okay, I'll grant that it carries a bit of weight--just not enough to be compelling unless you've also accounted for alternative explanations of your experience.

Re: your example of police harrassment--I have no idea whether your interpretations are true or false; I just don't know enough about what really happened (as opposed to what people say happened, which memories and interpretations are subject to numerous sources of distortion) to assess it.

I think that when you have a whole lot of people experiencing the same thing at the same time then you should pay attention ... when this happens you are beyond the realm of personal interpretation of events and into the territory of "collective experience", and that to me is a whole different ball game ...

Millions of people have had experiences which lead them to believe that, for instance, natural disasters are God's punishment for homosexuality, or for our not being Muslim, or not believing in Jesus, or believing in evolution. They are wrong; they've inferred meanings in their experiences that weren't really implied. Do you think that a million people making the same wrong inference makes it true? Incorrect inferences constitute zero evidence. Zero times a million still equals zero. The plural of "wrong inference" is not "evidence". When everyone inferred from their experience that the world was flat, their misinterpretation didn't mean the earth was really flat; it was just a misinterpretation. Until you and your zillion friends who agree with you seek out and openly consider alternative interpretations, your "collective experience" (really your collective interpretations of your experience) is far from compelling evidence. No matter how many people agree with you, your position is weak until you've openly considered alternative interpretations of your experience/evidence. And that's true for those who disagree with you, too.

[arthunter]

Throughout this long saga of explanations and analysis, my position has been that certain experiences, especially when shared with thousands of other people, need to be taken seriously and explored ... so essentially we are saying the same thing ... I am suggesting that people do their own research and come up with their own conclusions about anything and everything that I post and I have stated openly that I am open and indeed appreciative of all viewpoints ...

But I have to go back to my initial question many posts back ...

When you are experiencing abuse and thousands of others are experiencing identical abuse, and government whistleblowers ( who know about such things ) are exposing similar abuse and actually signing affadavits to be used in court cases about such abuse, and government agencies are reporting thousands of records of such abuse, and there are multiple lawsuits about such abuse, and mainstream media has covered this abuse, and law enforcement has admitted the existence of such abuse, and many, many books have been written about this abuse ... at what point do you conclude that this abuse is actually an ugly part of our world which needs to be addressed?

The only apposing viewpoint can be that this abuse is not really happening and that all of the millions of references to such abuse are fabricated and some kind of mass delusion ... is this likely? I don't think so ... why am I not willing to accept this conclusion? ... because there's absolute, undeniable proof of such abuse ... lawsuits have actually been won about this abuse ... credible witnesses to such abuse ... video proof of such abuse ... honestly, what does it take?

At some point we, as a caring and intelligent community, have to look at the evidence and make a decision about these things ... we can analyze any claim, gather all of the information, gather opinions based on the information, but the information must be shared and verified before any of this can take place, ... analysis can not take place without all of the information needed to determine the facts ...

Though I agree that one must look at all interpretations of data to make sure that data is interpreted correctly, it is equally damaging to dismiss a claim before examining all of that data ....

Again, let's not confuse our direct experience with the inferences we make from it.


Okay, I'll grant that it carries a bit of weight--just not enough to be compelling unless you've also accounted for alternative explanations of your experience.

Re: your example of police harrassment--I have no idea whether your interpretations are true or false; I just don't know enough about what really happened (as opposed to what people say happened, which memories and interpretations are subject to numerous sources of distortion) to assess it.


Millions of people have had experiences which lead them to believe that, for instance, natural disasters are God's punishment for homosexuality, or for our not being Muslim, or not believing in Jesus, or believing in evolution. They are wrong; they've inferred meanings in their experiences that weren't really implied. Do you think that a million people making the same wrong inference makes it true? Incorrect inferences constitute zero evidence. Zero times a million still equals zero. The plural of "wrong inference" is not "evidence". When everyone inferred from their experience that the world was flat, their misinterpretation didn't mean the earth was really flat; it was just a misinterpretation. Until you and your zillion friends who agree with you seek out and openly consider alternative interpretations, your "collective experience" (really your collective interpretations of your experience) is far from compelling evidence. No matter how many people agree with you, your position is weak until you've openly considered alternative interpretations of your experience/evidence. And that's true for those who disagree with you, too.

[Dixon]

Throughout this long saga of explanations and analysis, my position has been that certain experiences, especially when shared with thousands of other people, need to be taken seriously and explored ... so essentially we are saying the same thing ... I am suggesting that people do their own research and come up with their own conclusions about anything and everything that I post and I have stated openly that I am open and indeed appreciative of all viewpoints ...

Agreed!

If we have any "disagreement", it's that I'm wondering if you and your fellow "Targeted Individuals" (TIs) have really sought out more prosaic explanations for your experiences or are jumping too readily into what may in some cases be paranoid interpretations, then mutually reinforcing those interpretations through your community. Unfortunately, I haven't found the time to look at most of your links. I do recall at least one of your links a few months ago leading to a site that featured a lot of really dubious, even wacky, stuff. (Unfortunately, I don't recall the details.)

While being open to your claims, let me say that even if some or all of them are true, a community the size of the TI community will attract a lot of folks who have psychotic stuff going on, ranging from Simple Paranoia to complex, bizarre delusional systems as seen in disorders like Paranoid Schizophrenia. These disorders are real, they've existed for thousands of years, and they're associated with claims very similar to many of those we hear from you. I'm guessing that the TI community lovingly accepts nearly all claims without making much effort to separate the wheat from the chaff. If so, this undercuts your credibility.

I do agree that this stuff deserves research, and regret that I haven't found much time to look into it. After looking at your first couple of links, I got overwhelmed by the sheer volume of links you proffered and sort of gave up. I have no doubt that there is some truth to some of the claims of people being stalked or harassed, but when so many different kinds of things get roped into the same category, it's hard to follow, and starts to look like the kind of paranoid interpretation that sees a threat behind every bush. This then makes some of us skeptical about all of the associated claims. It might be good to tease out the separate threads and have discussions of, e.g., evidence for (and against) people being harassed with energy weapons versus vandalism of their home or car, versus verbal/behavioral harassment by their roommates or strangers on the street, etc. etc. We might then find that some of the claims are credible and others less so, thus trimming down the issue to a more manageable size.

The only apposing viewpoint can be that this abuse is not really happening and that all of the millions of references to such abuse are fabricated and some kind of mass delusion ...

Not true. The more likely explanation is that some of the claims are true and others not. Incidentally, some may very well be mass delusion, which is a more common phenomenon than most folks realize.

...we can analyze any claim, gather all of the information ... analysis can not take place without all of the information needed to determine the facts ...

In principle, I agree, but this issue as you've defined it is so huge and inchoate, with so many claims and associated data points, that it'd take ten lifetimes to analyze all of the data. Again, I urge you to break it down into sub-claims and focus on the best evidence.

Though I agree that one must look at all interpretations of data to make sure that data is interpreted correctly, it is equally damaging to dismiss a claim before examining all of that data ....

Agreed! And again, has the TI community been seeking out skeptical interpretations of their data?

One more thing: a huge factor that makes me skeptical of your claims is your belief that an accumulated total of many wo/man-hours of effort has been invested in harassing you and others like you. I can readily believe that shady forces in our society can afford to spend lots of effort and money to harass/discredit influential people like Martin Luther King; indeed we know that the FBI and others did just that. But to imagine that you or I are so important in the scheme of things that cumulatively many thousands of dollars worth of effort by many people would be invested in harassing us just seems grandiose--and such grandiosity is a hallmark of paranoia. I understand that in some cases people could be randomly selected for experimentation, or targeted due to a personal beef with someone who's, e.g., an FBI insider, but I don't think those explanations account for the sheer number of self-styled TIs who think they're so important as to be very expensively targeted. So if you expect the general public to take your concerns seriously, the TI community must start clearing out the deadwood in terms of disassociating itself from the most paranoid and least credible claims and claimants.

All the best to you, arthunter.

[arthunter]

Yes, you are right, Dixon ... good advice ... here is my focus on the best evidence as you suggest ...

If you do a search on this topic you will indeed find "wacky" stuff ... though we could start a whole other thread about what is "wacky" and what is not, as this seems like subjective opinion, does it not? .... Also, things can seem wacky when you are uninformed about them ... a hundred years ago all of our modern technology would have sounded wacky ...

Frequently when researching this, you will find many warnings about this "wackiness" and how there are many fake targets publishing total unrealistic BS to discredit the real victims ... it's the old disinformation game again and obviously it's working ...

And to address your assumption, no the targeted community certainly does not accept all claims from just anyone who shows up, we're very guarded and extremely aware of disinformation campaigns ... we also do not just accept any person claiming to be targeted for the same reason ... you soon learn to separate the wheat from the chaff, to use your expression ...

I find it interesting that your focus should rest on the "wacky" stuff and not the rest of it, but as you've stated you have been overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information on the subject ... fair enough ... I believe you ...

I suggest that you focus on the following information when determining if this is some "wacky" delusion involving thousands of people ....

Ted Gunderson, ex FBI chief, certainly wasn't "wacky" when he signed his court affidavit stating that this harassment protocol exists ... https://gangstalkingismurder.wordpre...ief-affidavit/

Dr. John Hall, a medical doctor and anesthesiologist, certainly wasn't "wacky" when he wrote his well reviewed book about this ... https://www.amazon.com/A-New-Breed-S.../dp/1606939440

Lieutenant Larry Richard of the Santa Cruz Police Dept. certainly wasn't "wacky" when he stated that this is a growing criminal problem ... https://stalkingvictims.com/phpbb3/v...p?f=282&t=8820

the DOJ certainly wasn't "wacky" when they issued their report of January, 2009 verifying components of this protocol ... https://gangstalkingismurder.wordpre...alking-report/

KENS TV of Houston, Texas certainly wasn't "wacky" when they reported this on their local TV news program in 2010 ... https://www.kens5.com/news/Stalked-d...n-Antonio.html

MSNBC - KMIR TV6 Palm Springs News certainly wasn't "wacky" when they reported this in 2012 ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6dk0MCOur8

ABC New TV10 in Sacramento certainly wasn't "wacky" when they reported on this in 2011 ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=471QxZbN3Og

Robert Duncan, ex CIA, FBI, Justice Department & DARPA employee with degrees from Harvard and Dartmouth, certainly wasn't wacky when he exposed some of the technology involved in this harassment on Jesse Ventura's "Brain Invaders" show ... ( btw, his show was discontinued shortly after this program aired ) ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXe-W2QPOuA he also wrote several books disclosing this information

GmB Bailey, author and researcher, certainly wasn't wacky when he wrote "Closing the Gap" which exposes this protocol ... https://www.amazon.com/Closing-The-G.../dp/1453803319

and I could go on ...

You've mentioned all of the different elements of this protocol ... yes, it is confusing ... it is a program which involves all of these things ... sorry, but that's the truth ... in fact, it is the protocol (and not the individual crimes) which makes it recognizable among victims ... imagine having 10 ridiculous crimes happen to you and then meeting someone else with the exact same story ...

I understand skepticism about this ... it took me months to believe it ... and more months to accept the technology involved ... I didn't want to believe it ... cognitive dissonance? ...

You should be careful not to make the assumption that the old Cointelpro is anything like the new Cointelpro ... this is a different animal ... we have emergency room physicians and normal every day housewives being targeted along with activists, whistle blowers and non conformists ... I think that this is a crime of revenge, social cleansing and hate, as much as anything else ... and I'm guessing that somewhere there's a profit motive ... perhaps corrupt connections to government spending?...

I certainly don't know all of the answers ... I just know that I am not delusional, that this is going on, that exposure about this is increasing, and that I'm gathering evidence and looking for a lawyer ... today I received a totally bogus government letter ... it was threatening and when I reported it to the appropriate government agency they had no knowledge of it ...

and on it goes ....

Agreed!

If we have any "disagreement", it's tha...

[kpage9]

The only one of the links i checked out was the following...and in fact while it interviews a group of men who think they're being targeted, the news piece really put it in the context of delusion. I don't think that's what you intended as evidence for the reality of this phenomenon?

kathy

MSNBC - KMIR TV6 Palm Springs News certainly wasn't "wacky" when they reported this in 2012 ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6dk0MCOur8

[arthunter]

Hi Kathy,

I included this piece because these guys are claiming that there are 300 victims hearing voices in the Palm Springs area ... that's incredible ...

The piece is actually inconclusive ... you have the guys claiming to hear voices and the psychologist claiming that it must be mental illness ... as any psychologist would, I might add, not knowing that there now exists technology that produces this affect ... in fact, there's a brief shot in the video of the patent for this technology but the news team doesn't pick up on that ...

But if you look at the Jesse Ventura piece you will discover that there is indeed technology which produces voices in the head and it's called "Voice of God" ,... it was partially developed by Robert Duncan, an ex CIA whistle-blower who exposes it in this video .... if I remember correctly, he even demonstrates the technology on a stunned Jesse Ventura ..

I've never experienced this so I'm like the rest of you, struggling to believe, but there are a great many targets who claim that they hear voices ... and they are very credible professional people with absolutely no history of mental illness ... imagine the affect of this technology on an unsuspecting person ... not only would the person feel mentally ill but all around him or her would assume this as well ...

Here is some more info about this subject:

https://peacepink.ning.com/forum/top...voice-to-skull

The only one of the links i checked out was the following...and in fact while it interviews a group of men who think they're being targeted, the news piece really put it in the context of delusion. I don't think that's what you intended as evidence for the reality of this phenomenon?

kathy

[QUOTE
MSNBC - KMIR TV6 Palm Springs News certainly wasn't "wacky" when they reported this in 2012 ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6dk0MCOur8 QUOTE]

[Dixon]

Hi, arthunter! Thanks for providing some links in an earlier post. I have not yet had time to look at them, except that your discussing the Palm Springs video here led me to watch it.

I included this piece because these guys are claiming that there are 300 victims hearing voices in the Palm Springs area ... that's incredible ...

Auditory hallucinations, sometimes just noises but usually voices, are very common in mental disorders such as Schizophrenia, Schizoaffective Disorder, some forms of Bipolar Disorder, etc., and have been for centuries. (Ironically, the "expert" interviewed in the video invoked Delusional Disorder, which does not involve prominent auditory hallucinations!) They commonly say terrible things and/or issue commands. Around 1% of the adult population could be expected to experience such voices from these causes. The population of Palm Springs was 44,552 as of the 2010 census. The "Palm Springs area", however defined, would include somewhat more people than that--maybe what, up to 50,000? Thus, we could expect around 450-500 people (1% of 45,000-50,000) in the Palm Springs area to experience "voices" just from mental illnesses, even if there were no "gang stalking" happening. The 300 figure you cite is low! It certainly provides zero evidence for any skullduggery of any kind.

The U.S. population is over 316 million. At some time in their lives, over 3 million of them should experience "voices" due to mental illness. If you and other TIs ("Targeted Individuals") are citing numbers of people reporting voices in the hundreds or even thousands as evidence for gang stalking, understand: these numbers, in and of themselves, constitute zero evidence of any sort of foul play. I'm not saying we know that such foul play isn't going on--only that citing large numbers of reports of "voices" as evidence of such is fallacious and undercuts your credibility. Okay?

But if you look at the Jesse Ventura piece you will discover that there is indeed technology which produces voices in the head and it's called "Voice of God" ,... it was partially developed by Robert Duncan, an ex CIA whistle-blower who exposes it in this video .... if I remember correctly, he even demonstrates the technology on a stunned Jesse Ventura...

I just read the Wikipedia article on the microwave auditory effect and it is indeed real. One researcher is quoted therein as saying "The sounds heard were not unlike those emitted by persons with an artificial voice box...". It makes me wonder if the technology has improved to the point of producing more natural sounding "voices". If not, that would call into question the "gang stalking" hypothesis in most or all cases of "voices", which are typically reported as sounding like real people.

Note that one of the guys in the video complained that the voices were commenting on his thoughts. This goes way beyond claims of simple "voice insertion"! For the voices to comment on his thoughts, the stalkers would have to be reading his mind from a distance before broadcasting the voices. This suggests to me that the voices were produced by his own mind. Or is the TI community also claiming that the stalkers can read your thoughts at a distance and immediately tailor the "voices" to comment thereon?

[arthunter]

Thanks for your astute observations, Dixon ...

Most targeted individuals are over the age of 40 ... this quote is from the National Alliance on Mental Health ...

Schizophrenia typically occurs in a window of the mid- to late-teens to the early 30s (this age range is a few year later for females, often the presentation is early- to mid-20s as opposed to the teen years).

As you said your self, all information and viewpoints for and against your point of view must be considered ... I suggest that you find the time to watch the Jesse Ventura video ... in spite of it's cheesy format, the research in that program is quite important, as is the amazing interview with CIA whistle-blower Robert Duncan, a person who personally worked on this technology ... If you don't have time to watch the whole program then advance the video to 37.25, the Robert Duncan interview ....

Yes, the technology has become sophisticated enough to mimic actual voices ...

Here is another video about this out of Iceland ... I wish that they had eliminated the weird music and painted faced lady singing, but it contains a lot of factual information, including the history of such experimentation in America ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfqxN5DHFvU#t=2460

Yes, there is a claim about mind reading, it's called Remote Neural Monitoring ... Robert Duncan explains it in his book "Matrix Deciphered" which can be found for free on the internet ... if this is true then I'm in denial about it ... seriously, as a victim of some of this, there are some things that I don't want to acknowledge, ... I'm already horrified by what I know, ..... but a lot of TIs swear that it's true ...

Think of medical imaging and the ability of science to take photos of your body and brain without touching you ... this is the basis for Remote Neural Monitoring ... the same with directed energy weapons, think of tasers, remote controls, and even wi fi ... same principle ... invisible energy which accomplishes work ...

I will say that the technology being used is way beyond anything that we know about ... and that, my friend, is the scary part ....

Hi, arthunter! Thanks for providing some links in an earlier post. I have not yet had time to look at them, except that your discussing the Palm Springs video here led me to watch it.


Auditory hallucinations, sometimes just noises but usually voices, are very common in mental disorders such as Schizophrenia, Schizoaffective Disorder, some forms of Bipolar Disorder, etc., and have been for centuries. (Ironically, the "expert" interviewed in the video invoked Delusional Disorder, which does not involve prominent auditory hallucinations!) They commonly say terrible things and/or issue commands. Around 1% of the adult population could be expected to experience such voices from these causes. The population of Palm Springs was 44,552 as of the 2010 census. The "Palm Springs area", however defined, would include somewhat more people than that--maybe what, up to 50,000? Thus, we could expect around 450-500 people (1% of 45,000-50,000) in the Palm Springs area to experience "voices" just from mental illnesses, even if there were no "gang stalking" happening. The 300 figure you cite is low! It certainly provides zero evidence for any skullduggery of any kind.

The U.S. population is over 316 million. At some time in their lives, over 3 million of them should experience "voices" due to mental illness. If you and other TIs ("Targeted Individuals") are citing numbers of people reporting voices in the hundreds or even thousands as evidence for gang stalking, understand: these numbers, in and of themselves, constitute zero evidence of any sort of foul play. I'm not saying we know that such foul play isn't going on--only that citing large numbers of reports of "voices" as evidence of such is fallacious and undercuts your credibility. Okay?


I just read the Wikipedia article on the microwave auditory effect and it is indeed real. One researcher is quoted therein as saying "The sounds heard were not unlike those emitted by persons with an artificial voice box...". It makes me wonder if the technology has improved to the point of producing more natural sounding "voices". If not, that would call into question the "gang stalking" hypothesis in most or all cases of "voices", which are typically reported as sounding like real people.

Note that one of the guys in the video complained that the voices were commenting on his thoughts. This goes way beyond claims of simple "voice insertion"! For the voices to comment on his thoughts, the stalkers would have to be reading his mind from a distance before broadcasting the voices. This suggests to me that the voices were produced by his own mind. Or is the TI community also claiming that the stalkers can read your thoughts at a distance and immediately tailor the "voices" to comment thereon?

[arthunter]

This just came in ... brilliant timing ...

Dr. John Hall wrote a book about this protocol and is now producing a movie about it ... this is a 24 minute interview with him discussing the problem ... the whole interview is interesting, but if you're short on time, he discusses the difference between technological audio affects and Schizophrenia at the 14:30 minute mark ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piHm1ogAEE8#t=24

[kpage9]

oh arthunter...it seems like you of all people haven't done your homework here, or for that matter paid attention to the real world. there are adult and aging schizophrenics all over the place. it BEGINS during that window you "quote" from NAMI.

kathy

Thanks for your astute observations, Dixon ...

Most targeted individuals are over the age of 40 ... this quote is from the National Alliance on Mental Health ...

Schizophrenia typically occurs in a window of the mid- to late-teens to the early 30s....

[arthunter]

yes, and I'm saying that for targeted individuals it begins after age 40 ... please, I've given two important links here ... do a moment of research, would you? ... listen to either one ... one man is a CIA whistle-blower and the other man is a medical doctor ... aren't you the least bit curious?

oh arthunter...it seems like you of all people haven't done your homework here, or for that matter paid attention to the real world. there are adult and aging schizophrenics all over the place. it BEGINS during that window you "quote" from NAMI.

kathy

[kpage9]

you tried to say that schizophrenics are only young people...i'm correcting that.

i listened to the (Alex Jones!) interview with the MD--an anesthesiologist who showed up on tv in his scrubs, apparently a friend of the family of one young woman complaining of voices--yep, a medical doctor. but not necessarily an expert in any of these matters.

i am curious, yes. and sorry for the trauma that all this causes anyone! but pretty sure we're talking about encapsulated delusion. in itself a weird and isolating phenomenon, except for those blessed moments when one finds others similarly afflicted.

kathy

yes, and I'm saying that for targeted individuals it begins after age 40 ... please, I've given two important links here ... do a moment of research, would you? ... listen to either one ... one man is a CIA whistle-blower and the other man is a medical doctor ... aren't you the least bit curious?

[arthunter]

I quoted a line of information from a reputable source ... thank you for adding your information ... it does not change the point I was making though ...

Let's see, you've managed to discredit Dr.John Hall ... and me ... and anyone else who's complaining about this abuse ... would you like to have a go at the rest of the links? ... you haven't addressed Ted Gunderson, Jesse Ventura, Robert Duncan, the Santa Cruz Police, a couple of TV stations, or the other author that I mentioned ... I can also give you a list of large support groups, many well published activists, and many more authors who have written about this ... if you're interested, that is ...

you tried to say that schizophrenics are ntaonly young people...i'm correcting that.

i listened to the (Alex Jones!) interview with the MD--an anesthesiologist who showed up on tv in his scrubs, apparently a friend of the family of one young woman complaining of voices--yep, a medical doctor. but not necessarily an expert in any of these matters.

i am curious, yes. and sorry for the trauma that all this causes anyone! but pretty sure we're talking about encapsulated delusion. in itself a weird and isolating phenomenon, except for those blessed moments when one finds others similarly afflicted.

kathy

[jbox]

yes, and I'm saying that for targeted individuals it begins after age 40 ... please, I've given two important links here ... do a moment of research, would you? ... listen to either one ... one man is a CIA whistle-blower and the other man is a medical doctor ... aren't you the least bit curious?

Arthunter,

I guess what I just don't understand is why on earth would there be a concerted, elaborate effort requiring the coordination of many people and presumably involving great expense and personal risk to intimidate, harass, and otherwise ruin the life of an ordinary innocent individual. Is it the government who is behind this or is it just a club of sadistic perverts? Who pays for all the abuses heaped on the "victims". Surely in all of these links there is some rationale? Claims are not evidence. Show me some real evidence. Show me the money.

[Alex]

Arthunter,

I guess what I just don't understand is why on earth would there be a concerted, elaborate effort requiring the coordination of many people and presumably involving great expense and personal risk to intimidate, harass, and otherwise ruin the life of an ordinary innocent individual. Is it the government who is behind this or is it just a club of sadistic perverts? Who pays for all the abuses heaped on the "victims". Surely in all of these links there is some rationale? Claims are not evidence. Show me some real evidence. Show me the money.

Could you please give some examples of what you would consider real evidence since you'll probably never have any direct personal experience with the subject matter?
Thank you.

[arthunter]

jbox,

I have asked myself the exact same questions ... why me? ... Who would spend all of this money and time to destroy the life of a peaceful, friendly 60 year old gardener, animal rescuer and Home Hospice volunteer? ... it doesn't make sense ...

Honestly, this is something that I think about all of the time ... and this isn't lightweight harassment ... we're talking animals killed, property destroyed, poisonings, emergency room visits, brakes failing, many near accidents on the road, carbon monoxide vents blocked in my home, financial sabotage, break ins, surveillance, slander, police harassment, and let's not forget stalking ... and I can prove most of this ... I am literally afraid for my life and this is why I continue to publicize this ...

I've done nothing but research since this started two years ago ... and from everything that I read this is organized crime hiding within legitimate government and if you listen to the Robert Duncan interview he feels the same way ....

Why me? ... I have a few theories ... 1) Many targets have some kind of law enforcement in their families, .... two that I have known personally had fathers who were judges ... my uncle was a cop ... perhaps he put one of these people away and now my whole family is paying for it ... I have strong reasons to believe that my mother was targeted, now that I know the facts ... 2) 70% of the targets are women ... a lot of the women I know who are targets are beautiful and independent ... there is a theory that women are targeted for revenge after refusing advances or getting out of an abusive relationship ... I have done both ... 3) I was diagnosed with late stage lyme disease in my late 30s ... at the time I had a business with 8 employees ... I got so sick before it was discovered, that my whole financial and business world collapsed ... since the world seems to be run by bankers maybe that put me on the "list" as a non-conformist or a "risk" when this happened .... 4) I called the cops on criminals in my neighborhood ... I didn't know they were criminals, I was just trying to get the all night parties and gun firing stopped, but one of them was arrested and then they were evicted ...

Now to the money aspect ... if this is government experimentation, and a lot of people think that it is, then it is well funded ... and the person who "sells" you to the government as a human lab rat probably gets well paid for just "doing his job" ... of course, there would be a lot of slander involved and justification for the choice of this person, and that's where the revenge comes in ... Our government has been experimenting using innocent citizens for decades and I can produce lots of proof of this ...

A lot of the experimentation that's been done is psychological in nature ... look up MKUltra for verification of this ... and now, according to a lot of good information, the world is actually in a secret arms race, rapidly developing directed energy weapons ( like those already used in Iraq )... I have read that the gang stalking protocol, as well as being used to silence activists and whistle-blowers, is also used before experimentation begins to keep a subject defenseless ... not only does it discredit the person and make them appear mentally ill ( because it's so insane that when they report it no one believes them ) but it strips them of all that they would need to fight back ...

As far as proof, I urge you to read Ted Gunderson's affidavit and read it very carefully, especially his credentials ... just scroll down this page until you find it ...

https://gangstalkingismurder.wordpre...ief-affidavit/

Arthunter,

I guess what I just don't understand is why on earth would there be a concerted, elaborate effort requiring the coordination of many people and presumably involving great expense and personal risk to intimidate, harass, and otherwise ruin the life of an ordinary innocent individual. Is it the government who is behind this or is it just a club of sadistic perverts? Who pays for all the abuses heaped on the "victims". Surely in all of these links there is some rationale? Claims are not evidence. Show me some real evidence. Show me the money.

[jbox]

jbox,

I have asked myself the exact same questions ... why me? ...

Now to the money aspect ...

As far as proof, I urge you to read Ted Gunderson's affidavit and read it very carefully, especially his credentials ... just scroll down this page until you find it ...

https://gangstalkingismurder.wordpre...ief-affidavit/

OK, I get that something might be going on. After reading your link I think that for to have this happen over a long period of time under the direction of the FBI and other intelligence agencies just seems so outrageous that this sort of pointless, vast conspiracy should have folded or imploded long ago. So, all I can say is - Show me the money.

[jbox]

Could you please give some examples of what you would consider real evidence since you'll probably never have any direct personal experience with the subject matter?
Thank you.

Emails, definitive financial transactions or records, policy statements, official reports, arrests, prosecutions, anything but f#%@+*g Jesse Ventura. He makes Ahnold look like Albert Schweitzer.

[arthunter]

well there goes Jesse ... ex Navy Seal and ex-governor ... am I to understand that you just don't like his personality? ... well then to hell with the information he uncovers, eh? ... and the Robert Duncan interview? is that trashed because it's conducted by Jesse?

almost like saying that a doctor isn't credible because he's wearing scrubs and he actually knew the victim that was featured in his book ... now there's some logic for ya ...

and one of the reasons that this protocol is still going on is that the powers that be threaten or pay off many people ( I'll be nice and call them undercover agents ) who join in and discredit anyone who reports it ... have you ever heard of Cointelpro infiltration? ... if not do some research ... it's right at the top of the list for controlling opposition ...

and what on earth makes you think that any government injustice is just going to fold and implode? ... my God, it took a break in to retrieve Cointelpro files, they were exposed, they were told to stop, and I can post many credible links showing that they haven't ... once again, listen to the Robert Duncan interview, look at his credentials ...

I have proof of my case, others have proof of their cases, and there are several lawsuits in the works ... none of us will actually publish that proof before the court hearings ... we'd be stupid to do that ...

for convictions there's James Walbert ... since he won his court case for electronic harassment he's been approached by television for his story ... here's the coverage by wired.com ...

https://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/07/court-to-defendant-stop-blasting-that-mans-mind/

and here is just a small sampling of other court cases about this ...

https://peacepink.ning.com/profiles/...-control-v2k-1

Emails, definitive financial transactions or records, policy statements, official reports, arrests, prosecutions, anything but f#%@+*g Jesse Ventura. He makes Ahnold look like Albert Schweitzer.

[arthunter]

And should you doubt that the technology exists and therefore all of these people are crazy, just look at this ... this is fact, not interpretation ....

US Patent 4,335,710 Device for the induction of specific brain wave patterns
US Patent 6,219,657 Device and method for creation of emotions
US Patent 6,238,333 Remote magnetic manipulation of nervous systems
US Patent 6,536,440 Method and system for generating sensory data onto the human neural cortex
US Patent 6,587,729 Apparatus for audibly communicating speech using the radio frequency hearing effect
US Patent 6,889,085 Method and system for forming an acoustic signal from neural timing difference data
US1749090 Apparatus for obtaining criminal confessions
US2304095 Method and apparatus for inducing and sustaining sleep
US2703344 Cutaneous Signaling -1949
US2860627 Pattern Photic Stimulator
US2902030 Alertness indicator
US2968302 Multibeam Focusing Irradiator (Sound) 1956
US3393279 Nervous System Excitation Device
US3398810 Ultrasonic Sound Beam
US3499437 Method and Apparatus for treament of organic structure
US3568347 Psycho-Acoustic Projector
US3576185 Sleep inducing method and arrangement using modulated sound and light
US3612061 Flexible Cutaneous Electrode Matrix 1969
US3773049 Apparatus for treatment of neuropsychic & somatic diseases with heat light sound & VHF electromagnetic radiation
US3967616 Multi channel system for & multi factorial method of controlling the nervous system of a living organism
US4227516 Apparatus for Electro-Physiological Stimulation
US4315502 Frequency Stimulation Device
US4349898 Sonic Weapon System
US4388918 Mental Harmonization Process
US4395600 Auditory subliminal message system and method
US4616261 Method and apparatus for generating subliminal visual messages
US4686605 Method and apparatus for altering a region in the earth’s atmosphere, ionosphere, and/or magnetosphere
US4692118 Video Subconscious Display Attachment
US4699153 System for accessing verbal psycho-biological conditions of a subject
US4712155 Method and apparatus for creating an artificial electron cyclotron heating region of plasma
US4717343 Method of changing a person’s behavior
US4734037 Message Screen (Subliminal)
US4777529 Auditory subliminal programming system
US4821326 Non-Audible Speech Generation Method & Apparatus
US4834701 Apparatus for inducing frequency reduction in brain wave

https://patft.uspto.gov/

[kpage9]

Every time I give this idea another try and follow a random one of your links, I come up with the same thing. Either the source is a well-known wingnut (Alex Jones, in the case of the doc), or the article/video you're using to prove your point actually adds fuel to the "other side"--in the case of the Wired magazine article, it's the latter. Their conclusion is that the TI market is a lucrative one for unscrupulous people offering to sweep your brain for implants, or to shield you...now THIS makes you a Targeted Individual, but only by clever, greedy, exploitive people who want to sell you something.

I know we (those of us who keep trying) won't talk you out of this terrible conviction--I assume it's terrible, that you're suffering needlessly. And I know you say you're suffering not from the conviction but from the wide variety of bad things that have happened to you. And I believe you think your consuming focus on this issue will result--or may help in some way--in dismantling the apparatus behind it all.

I do keep wondering how you explain what would have to be a big coordinated net of people behind it--operating entirely clandestinely, with fabulous technology and lots of money and time on their hands--and to accomplish what, exactly? To drive someone nuts?

I mean: is the fact that you are suffering so many awful things that you can barely think about anything else really serving some grand and nefarious purpose?

And: how WOULD you define delusion?

Arthunter, my 32-year-old is now telling me that he knows what God is thinking, that he (my son) can influence others' thoughts as he is now as powerful as God...and that anyone who hasn't repented had better watch out, because he (said son) will "take care of" them.

Would you say that's delusional?'

How about the guy I sat next to at the Denny's counter who complained that he was having a hard time getting maternity clothes to fit him? and plus wasn't being treated very respectfully by the saleswomen...

delusional?

ah but not you and your fellow TIs...because there's lots of you?

you might say to just go away and leave you alone, and i might just do that...but you do seem to want to engage the rest of us in conversation.

wishing us all peace and a good night,

kathy

[arthunter]

I see no attempt by you to face the facts of what I'm sharing. Your intent seems to be one of discrediting any source of information which I provide. Now it's Alex Jones that is the problem.... you haven't focused at all on the interview by a well known doctor and author who's trying to expose this thing, who's actually had coverage by mainstream news reporting in Texas ... no, he couldn't possibly be correct because it's Alex Jones interviewing him ...

And the wired.com piece about James Walbert ... you are not focused on the facts of the case and that it was decided in James Walbert's favor, or that he is supported by a member of the house of representatives and the UN ... no, you'd rather focus on the fact that business is looking at the profit potential of such cases ...

and who's logic is fuzzy here?

and what about all of the other links? ... how will you discredit two government whistle-blowers, mainstream news reporting, the Santa Cruz Policeman, pages of petitions to Congress, and multiple court cases ?

If you want an answer to your question then I suggest that you watch the Robert Duncan interview ... this is technology meant to disable and control people ... it was actually used in Iraq ... there are patents ... it is being tested for crowd control, etc. ... some say that these are the ultimate weapons of control being developed by those in power who have nothing but money to burn .... and yes, you're dam right I'm focused on it ...

I'm sincerely sorry to hear about your son ... yes, he does sound delusional ... and yes, a man worried about maternity clothes fitting would concern me ... but to take all of the information that I've provided and compare it to these two cases? ... are you kidding me?

once again, what is your agenda here? ... I don't see you discussing the facts at all ...

Every time I give this idea another try and follow a random one of your links, I come up with the same thing. Either the source is a well-known wingnut (Alex Jones, in the case of the doc), or the article/video you're using to prove your point actually adds fuel to the "other side"-...

[arthunter]

This is an intelligent article about the technologies which exist today ... it is well documented ... it's the kind of article that I hate to read because one realizes that this technology is a secret and, therefore, possibly in dangerous hands ...

https://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/0...iction-beyond/

[arthunter]

At this point in the exploration of this theory, I want to remind all of you of Cointelpro. A lot of what's happening to me and others is very similar to past Cointelpro tactics. As some of you know, I have a petition circulating which addresses the modern day Cointelpro. It has over a thousand signatures and the comments will reveal that many of the signers consider themselves victims of this protocol ... when I publicize this petition I usually experience computer problems and/or vandalism to my car and property ... I have also been threatened ...

Cointelpro is not a theory ... it is well documented .... here is a link from that petition which discusses Cointelpro today:

https://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/COINTELPRO/cointelpro-methods.html

The author of this article, Brian Glick, is a clinical associate professor of law at Fordham University ... here is his biography ...

https://law.fordham.edu/faculty/brianglick.htm


Recently, I was sent information about a famous Cointelpro victim ... her name was Jean Seberg and she was a successful actress until she made the mistake of giving financial support to activist groups ... Here is her story on Wikipedia, including her proven destruction by government agents ...( she finally killed herself at age 40 )... notice that this account of her harassment includes constant stalking and character assassination ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Seberg


There is one more possibility for my targeting which I neglected to mention. My mother was a published activist fighting primarily for women's rights. She loved men but she wanted the ability to earn equal pay for equal work. She was very vocal and published in newspapers around the country.

When she was around my age she started complaining about harassment. She also abruptly lost her job, without any real reasons being given. She was also reporting strange events around her home which were difficult to explain. Her health also started to deteriorate in spite of a very healthy lifestyle.

I didn't think anything of this at the time because I was busy trying to cope with Lyme disease and property renovation while running a complex business. I thought that she was just "losing it" due to the stress in her life. She finally died an early death due to serious medical misdiagnosis.

Shortly after she died, things in my life started to decay as well. My healthy cat suddenly died, my house caught on fire, and my husband of 20 years suddenly became verbally violent. I also developed strange electrical abnormalities ( witnessed by many other people ) and business problems which were beyond my control.

Now look at the Jesse Ventura episode I've referenced where he interviews targeted individuals ... you will see that they all have one thing in common, and that is activism against US government policies.

All just a coincidence? ... I'll let you decide ...

[arthunter]

This is Robert Duncan's new book ... he's the man who is interviewed on Jesse Ventura's "Brain Invaders" ... he worked for the CIA as well as many other government alphabet agencies and had a role in developing the systems which are now being used against innocent citizens ... obviously, he is now a whistle-blower ...

You can read some of the book on this Amazon page by clicking on "Look Inside" and then manipulating the arrows and scrolling feature ...

https://www.amazon.com/How-Tame-Demo...o+tame+a+demon

[Sara S]

I'm reminded of the discussions here a couple of years ago about the terrible, harmful contrails in the sky.....

[arthunter]

This came in this morning ... the interesting thing about Aaron Alexis is that he contacted the largest gang stalking support group to say that he was being electronically harassed ... he was begging for help, but before the president of that organization could make contact with him he went on his shooting rampage ... make of it what you will ....

https://canadafreepress.com/index.ph...rkMAyE.twitter

[arthunter]

Also, did you know that Denis Kucinich introduced a bill that would ban space based weapon systems, including those used for mind control? ... this stuff is difficult for me to believe and accept, but the information regarding it is overwhelming so I include it .... this is a very informative article ...
..
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_psy.chotronicweapons10.htm

[Dixon]

Also, did you know that Denis Kucinich introduced a bill that would ban space based weapon systems, including those used for mind control?

It's a bit misleading to only give half the story. The bill you refer to is HR 2977. It wasn't written by Kucinich. It was written by some friends of his who have some ideas that even you, arthunter, would probably find pretty strange (aliens, time travel, etc.). Apparently Kucinich didn't read the bill before introducing it, and he later disassociated himself from it--an embarrassing episode for him. It certainly didn't help his already slim chance at the Presidency--a shame, since I think he's one of the few good, progressive politicians. Here's a good article on the whole mess:
https://contrailscience.com/kucinich...s-and-hr-2977/
And here's a relevant excerpt from the article:
"So what’s Kucinich's involvement in this? It's difficult to say. Kucinich is anti-war, so perhaps that's his motivation. He does have a lot of new-age, UFO-believing, friends, but he's also running for president. When he was made aware of the nature of the "exotic weapons" language in the bill, it was re-written, and when questioned about it, he said "I'm not into that. Understand me. When I found out that was in there, I said, 'Look, I'm not interested in going there.'"

[Dixon]

... the interesting thing about Aaron Alexis is that he contacted the largest gang stalking support group to say that he was being electronically harassed ... he was begging for help, but before the president of that organization could make contact with him he went on his shooting rampage ... make of it what you will ....

Okay, here's what I make of it after having read the article you link to: All of the facts reported are consistent with a psychotic disorder. I understand that they're also consistent with your hypothesis. I'm leaning toward the psychotic disorder interpretation, partly because, even if the scenario you describe is really happening, I assume paranoid psychosis of various types is more common (in the millions in this country alone). Also, even if we assume that the voice commands were planted there by someone, why would Alexis choose to follow the horrible commands? Hearing voices is one thing; being crazy enough to attribute godlike authority and following the orders is another. The people I've personally known who've done horrible things due to command hallucinations (such as John, a very pleasant local guy who cut off his own hand because the voice told him to), all had pretty classic psychotic disorders.