7 idiots on Bikes at Ragle park this Sat Afternoon.

[RicoBoccia]

I like your attitude, Miles. I might just add that beeping at a cyclist is usually perceived as a hostile act. Why? Because it so often is. Unless there is something unusual in the situation, e.g. a high wind that makes the sound of an approaching car difficult to hear, by the time you are within 20-30 feet of a cyclist, he/she is well aware of your presence, and blowing the horn is not only not going to help, it's going to make the cyclist think you are either yet one more hostile motorist or at least overly frightened about what might happen next (as many drivers seem to be). What seems from inside your car like a "quick beep" that is an attempt to duplicate the sound of a bicycle bell sounds very different to someone not encased in the safety and sound-deafening of 1-2 tons of glass and steel. At 150-200 feet, you might be far enough back that the cyclist has not yet heard your car and might benefit from a friendly beep, but as I say, he/she is almost always going to hear the sound of your car well before it's time to move all the way to the right. Hope this helps.

[taishon]

Ok..but if the biker almost always hears the car then why aren't they moving out of the way instead of forcing the car to move outside the lines ?!? I have a truck, there are many times when I have been right behind a biker and they act completly oblivious which is crappy on their part. The quick is a gentle reminder that they are being stupid and inconsiderate and need to move over and pay attention more..if they want to perceive it as hostile, I don't care..as long as they move the hell out of the way and use more consciousness next time. If they are being stupid and unsafe, they need an assertive reminder. We are not going to install little bike bells on all our cars. Woudl you prefer yelling out the window ?!? How else do I get an inconsiderate biker to move over ? Closely follow them for miles ?
Sal

I like your attitude, Miles. I might just add that beeping at a cyclist is usually perceived as a hostile act. Why? Because it so often is. Unless there is something unusual in the situation, e.g. a high wind that makes the sound of an approaching car difficult to hear, by the time you are within 20-30 feet of a cyclist, he/she is well aware of your presence, and blowing the horn is not only not going to help, it's going to make the cyclist think you are either yet one more hostile motorist or at least overly frightened about what might happen next (as many drivers seem to be). What seems from inside your car like a "quick beep" that is an attempt to duplicate the sound of a bicycle bell sounds very different to someone not encased in the safety and sound-deafening of 1-2 tons of glass and steel. At 150-200 feet, you might be far enough back that the cyclist has not yet heard your car and might benefit from a friendly beep, but as I say, he/she is almost always going to hear the sound of your car well before it's time to move all the way to the right. Hope this helps.

[Sara S]

This makes sense, but how many people (who don't ride) are aware that the rider can hear the cars so well, or are aware that the beep will be perceived as "hostile"?

I know that when I was behind a rider on Fort Ross Road a few years ago, I beeped the horn to alert him, and got a tirade of anger (it was Tom Ritchey, who owns a place there). And that's one of quite a few times that my attempts to not hit a biker have been met with curses.

I like your attitude, Miles. I might just add that beeping at a cyclist is usually perceived as a hostile act. Why? Because it so often is. Unless there is something unusual in the situation, e.g. a high wind that makes the sound of an approaching car difficult to hear, by the time you are within 20-30 feet of a cyclist, he/she is well aware of your presence, and blowing the horn is not only not going to help, it's going to make the cyclist think you are either yet one more hostile motorist or at least overly frightened about what might happen next (as many drivers seem to be). What seems from inside your car like a "quick beep" that is an attempt to duplicate the sound of a bicycle bell sounds very different to someone not encased in the safety and sound-deafening of 1-2 tons of glass and steel. At 150-200 feet, you might be far enough back that the cyclist has not yet heard your car and might benefit from a friendly beep, but as I say, he/she is almost always going to hear the sound of your car well before it's time to move all the way to the right. Hope this helps.

[RicoBoccia]

I greatly appreciate those willing to discuss this like adults, rather than threaten violence (which, even if meant in humor, is not the least bit funny). We have learned here that the participants in a bike-pedestrian or bike-auto encounter can have dramatically different views of the situation. Like mediators always say, the best way to solve a conflict is to first try to see things from the other person's point of view, so we've already made good progress in that regard.

How would a non-cyclist know that cyclists can hear cars without the use of a car horn? Well, I just told you (and Mr. Ritchey's behavior implied as much, too; he just didn't have the venue to explain it clearly). So if you tell a few people and they each tell a few people and so on, the world is soon a safer, happier place, however incrementally. I think this is how it works with most positive change in this jagged world.

And yes, there will always be people who don't play nice, like the cyclist who doesn't move over. Even though I cycle a lot, I, too, encounter such people when I am in my car. At those times I get just as unhappy as anyone, but I try to remember to take a breath and realize that waiting until there is room to pass safely, even if such is my right and even if I have to drive serveral extra seconds until it appears, is a level of inconvenience that is utterly trivial compared to the unhappiness that would come into *my* life (forget the cyclist's) if I refused to wait those seconds, tried to wedge my car through a space too small, and something bad happened. I find my righteous indignation, while satisfying, I admit, just isn't worth it. Another's mileage may, of course, vary.

[podfish]

... And that's one of quite a few times that my attempts to not hit a biker have been met with curses.

it always amazes me that people are so trusting.
I wouldn't walk around in a public place with earbuds - I don't particularly like them in private, for that matter. But being willing to challenge someone who's wrapped in a steel box weighing a couple of tons while you're out there essentially naked - that's a sense of security I can't imagine. To me it shows a hugely unwarranted trust in human nature.

[Sara S]

I think most of my unpleasant encounters like that just show that a common reaction to sudden fear is instant anger; of course, you could say that just being out there on a bike shows trust of a sort.

it always amazes me that people are so trusting.
I wouldn't walk around in a public place with earbuds - I don't particularly like them in private, for that matter. But being willing to challenge someone who's wrapped in a steel box weighing a couple of tons while you're out there essentially naked - that's a sense of security I can't imagine. To me it shows a hugely unwarranted trust in human nature.

[taishon]

I keep seeing the need to generalize and support 'both sides' in arguments like these and sort of make overall statements about spirituality or humanity. There may be two different perceptions (one of which is just plain wrong) to some of these incidents but there really is only one valid rational one to most of the incidents described. There were two parties involved and one party was acting stupidly, carelessly, and dangerously. You can light all the zen candles and do all the meditation you want, the 'wrong party' may be a wonderful person who, temporarily, acted carelessly, but all that will matter not one bit if someone's kid or loved one gets seriously injured or killed by careless behavior. I shouldn't be the only bike rider talking about stuff like this. There weren't two valid, correct perceptions to the incident I witnessed much as there wouldn't have been two valid correct perceptions to me driving my truck 50 mph down a crowded residential street full of families. Its wrong, its stupid, its arrogant, its careless, its selfish.

As far as the violence issue goes (and I do find the 'bola comments' amusing and tempting :0) sometimes people just need to be decked for being so damned thoughtless. In the incident I mentioned one of the reasons I wasn't even more assertive was that, if I got a caustic response I would have seriously been tempted to use violence and been a bad example to my son. If that makes you feel more enlightened and 'better' than me..then enjoy. Even more fun for me, in the long term, would be some kind of effective legal action but that is damned tough to carry off. I would rather be justifiably aggressive then ineffectually and arrogantly passive-aggressive. Had I been more aggressive maybe they would think twice before endangering someone else. Had I passively moved off the pathway there is no coercion or incentives for them to act differently next time. I have never seen a bully situation where acting like a passive victim made bullies less bullying (except maybe in nature when we are talking about wolves or some such). To take the analogy even more extreme, plenty of studies have shown that fighting off a rapist, rather than being submissive, has a much much higher chance of success. No, the crappy bikers mentioned often in this thread weren't even close to being evil rapists but they did exemplify a much much milder version of the same type of mentality- ie the belief you can act in a way you should know better because you think there are no consequences or you don't care about the consequences because you believe them to be mild.

We can 'Ghandi' this all we want but 'Ghandi' was only successful after a hell of a lot of hurt and killed innocents (and I doubt he would have been effective, at all, against Hitler or the Khmer Rouge..but I digress).

As many seasoned warriors and victims of bullying will attest, sometimes Bullys just need to be beat down by someone tougher and more assertive. Watch episodes of 'Bully Beatdown' and you will see how effective beating down a Bully is (they tend to change and realize that its not that much fun when yer a victim). Obnoxious riders are a form of bully. I never encounter bikers who cuss me out because I am going too slow because I am 6' 220 lbs..not because its all that rare as others can/have attested here. If I was an 80 year old lady who just wanted to enjoy a leisurely afternoon stroll on occasion, I guarantee that I would have more bad encounters from these bullies.


Ok..now I went off on a ridiculous philisophical tangent :0)

Admire your belief in being peaceful and open-minded..believe there are situations where that is ineffective and ultimately bad.

Sal

I greatly appreciate those willing to discuss this like adults, rather than threaten violence (which, even if meant in humor, is not the least bit funny). We have learned here that the participants in a bike-pedestrian or bike-auto encounter can have dramatically different views of the situation. Like mediators always say, the best way to solve a conflict is to first try to see things from the other person's point of view, so we've already made good progress in that regard.

How would a non-cyclist know that cyclists can hear cars without the use of a car horn? Well, I just told you (and Mr. Ritchey's behavior implied as much, too; he just didn't have the venue to explain it clearly). So if you tell a few people and they each tell a few people and so on, the world is soon a safer, happier place, however incrementally. I think this is how it works with most positive change in this jagged world.

And yes, there will always be people who don't play nice, like the cyclist who doesn't move over. Even though I cycle a lot, I, too, encounter such people when I am in my car. At those times I get just as unhappy as anyone, but I try to remember to take a breath and realize that waiting until there is room to pass safely, even if such is my right and even if I have to drive serveral extra seconds until it appears, is a level of inconvenience that is utterly trivial compared to the unhappiness that would come into *my* life (forget the cyclist's) if I refused to wait those seconds, tried to wedge my car through a space too small, and something bad happened. I find my righteous indignation, while satisfying, I admit, just isn't worth it. Another's mileage may, of course, vary.

["Mad" Miles]

"I greatly appreciate those willing to discuss this like adults, rather than threaten violence (which, even if meant in humor, is not the least bit funny). We have learned here that the participants in a bike-pedestrian or bike-auto encounter can have dramatically different views of the situation. Like mediators always say, the best way to solve a conflict is to first try to see things from the other person's point of view, so we've already made good progress in that regard."

Rico,

Flying closely by someone in a park or on a pedestrian/bicycle/equestrian trail anywhere, while shouting aggressively for the right of way, is violent. Both as actual emotional violence, and the greater speed and mass of the rider and their bicycle is a palpable threat of physical violence.

Bicycles won't beat cars or trucks, obviously, but they're made of metal and hard plastic, when you add velocity and the weight of a human body, they are a clear and present danger to pedestrians, especially small ones, and animals, usually of the canine variety in this matter.

One respondent below mentioned actual physical harm done to a friend by violent "accidental" contact with a cyclist. Those of us who read the news know that in the tally of who did what to who, car and truck drivers are far ahead in the damage to cyclists as opposed to the other way around. But a cyclist killed a pedestrian in San Francisco last November.

Granted that's exceptional, rare, but without some comprehensive study (that I'm sure Attic would oppose as overzealous policing! ;-P ) all we have is anecdotal evidence. There seems sufficient hearsay to acknowledge that some cyclists are riding too aggressively and too fast, on shared trails and paths.

This discussion isn't just about right of way, or etiquette, it's about who is threatening whom and why. And why it should not be countenanced.

All of the tongue in cheek references to defensive "violence" need to be understood in that light.

And I will repeat cause it's damned important, when you as a cyclist respond to complaints about obnoxious and threatening cyclists by saying, "...participants in a bike-pedestrian or bike-auto encounter can have dramatically different views of the situation. Like mediators always say, the best way to solve a conflict is to first try to see things from the other person's point of view...", surely you understand that comes off as denial and deflection.

When people are angry for good reason, denial and deflection from those they are angry at, or those claiming to represent those they are angry at, generally exacerbate the conflict, they do not alleviate it.

You know what might ameliorate the conflict?

A clear and visible effort from the recreational biking community to police its own. And for self-appointed representatives to acknowledge the problem without trying to deflect it back to those unhappy for being treated with disrespect and who have been verbally and physically threatened while doing absolutely nothing wrong.

That might be a start. I've seen some acknowledgment here from cyclists that not all "bikers" are angels. But I've also seen those representing them dissembling as much as addressing the problem. Those evasions do nothing but confirm your community's reputation for arrogance, self-entitlement and denial. As I wrote in my previous, it only takes one jerk to ruin it for everybody else.

By the way, tearing up trails on public property that leads to erosion and habitat depletion? Also not helping. Not helping your community's reputation with others, specifically.

I won't belabor the, "not paying for parking" issue, in regional parks, by pedestrians, cyclists, whoever. The PD has been all over that tip.

When this stuff comes up, I think about the lab rat population studies from back in the eighties. How anti-social behavior increases greatly when crowding and resource reductions (food, water) are introduced.

I've always resisted biological determinist explanations for social (and anti-social) behavior. I hated, The Naked Ape, when I read it in the mid-seventies. But sometimes such explanations are hard to resist. The thin veneer of civilization, and all that...

[Attic]

@RicoBoccia Well after reading how the bikers on this thread want to sing kumbaya, light candles, and reincarnate gandhi it makes me think that this is all just excuses for bad biker behavior. It seems that one cyclist on this thread is trying to down play the bad biker behavior by dwelling on the joking comments about a tazer. I may in joke say tazer a cyclist but I'm not the guy endangering other people and being a danger on our roads and trails. The fact of the matter is that when you a biker are making excuses for other bikers bad behavior it makes my tazer comment seem more worthy of actual contemplation. Bikers being dangerous is the cause of this thread but no you cant take a joke about a tazer. So now I have changed my mind as this lack of you being able to even take a joke shows me that you have a sense of entitlement and that no one should put down your biker kin. I would now like to have the police involved. We should give cyclist tickets for speeding not moving to the side of the road as is the law and for their ridiculous bad spandex clad attitudes. Those of you that said take video, I now agree, lets shame the bikers that obviously think this behavior is ok. I will honk or air-horn at every biker that is not obeying the law from now on. Hold hands and sing kumbaya to that.

[podfish]

You know what might ameliorate the conflict?

A clear and visible effort from the recreational biking community to police its own.

that might be nice, but that implies more of a community than I think exists. I doubt there's anywhere near enough feeling of interconnection and mutual responsibility for riders to be a real community, any more than blondes make up a community.
Unless you mean the subset who do self-identify as the riding community; there certainly is a subset of riders who feel that way. But as was pointed out, it only takes a few bad actors (I don't recall the exact term used earlier in this thread) to tarnish the group. It's unlikely there's full overlap between those and the "riding community".

Totally different issue: tearing up trails. Sometimes the definition of "tearing up" is in the eye of the beholder, with more justfication than the claim of there being two sides to ped vs. rider interactions. For someone who hates the damn things anyway, even more if they're motorized, any trace left behind by a cycle is too much. Equestrians and wheeled-offroaders are going to leave traces. As are hikers, as are hoofed wildlife. That problem is more qualitative and subject to negotiation, except to the purist tree-hugger or land-rapers. Let's keep the two conflicts of interest separate.

[taishon]

I think there is a very strong biker community here in this county. Unfortunately, I am coming to believe its of the evangelical myopic variety that doesn't exist in any other many hobbies or passions I am part of. Just as in fundamental religions there seems to be a steadfast belief that their 'religion' is not subject to doubt or questioning or criticism and is fundamentally better than other religions (walkers and motorists). I have posted in 3 very public locations and NOT A SINGLE BIKER HAS COME FORWARD IN ANY KIND OF SYMPATHY OR AGREEMENT OR CONCERN OR OUTRAGE with me !!
Thats highly unusual and really does imitate a fundamentalists religious order. The more I delve into this the more I realize that this is much bigger and more pervasive then the single incident I started this thread with. I am a 'biker'..I am criticizing the biker community. The only replies I have gotten from other bikers are (1) denial of the issue and (2) criticism of the use of the word 'stupid' in my post :0) !

I have held several different careers, participated in at least 8 different passionate hobbies in my lifetime and, in all of them, had I posted similar criticisms I would have gotten many sympathetic responses from within the community.

Hell (pun intended) when I did the fundamental religious think and questioned aspects of the culture I got more sympathetic responses from inside the criticized community !

Sal

that might be nice, but that implies more of a community than I think exists. I doubt there's anywhere near enough feeling of interconnection and mutual responsibility for riders to be a real community, any more than blondes make up a community.
Unless you mean the subset who do self-identify as the riding community; there certainly is a subset of riders who feel that way. But as was pointed out, it only takes a few bad actors (I don't recall the exact term used earlier in this thread) to tarnish the group. It's unlikely there's full overlap between those and the "riding community".

Totally different issue: tearing up trails. Sometimes the definition of "tearing up" is in the eye of the beholder, with more justfication than the claim of there being two sides to ped vs. rider interactions. For someone who hates the damn things anyway, even more if they're motorized, any trace left behind by a cycle is too much. Equestrians and wheeled-offroaders are going to leave traces. As are hikers, as are hoofed wildlife. That problem is more qualitative and subject to negotiation, except to the purist tree-hugger or land-rapers. Let's keep the two conflicts of interest separate.

[Dixon]

Warning: This is slightly tangential, but it does follow from some of what's been said on this thread:

Motorists, bicyclists and pedestrians as groups of humans all show both good and bad behaviors. I want to gripe about the behavior of many, many pedestrians--behavior that's very similar to some that's been mentioned about bicyclists. How many of you, when walking side-by-side with a friend down a sidewalk or walking path, switch to single file when someone is coming the other way, so they don't have to scrunch up or, worse, get off the sidewalk/path entirely to make it by you?

In my experience, many pedestrians are inconsiderate in this way. It's not about much danger of injury; it's about showing basic respect for those around us instead of making the world a little uglier by being a self-centered jerk. Just 2 days ago on the SSU campus, I was walking on a paved footpath, way over to the right side to leave plenty of room for others, when a girl (I won't call her a woman because she didn't conduct herself as an adult) came the other direction waaaay over on my side, even though it was a wide path and she had plenty of room to avoid me. I held my ground rather than get off the path, which would have been necessary to avoid her, and our shoulders hit fairly hard as we passed each other. I have no idea what was going through her little pea-brain, but whatever it was, it had nothing to do with basic consideration or respect for others. :cussing:

Dig this, inconsiderate pedestrians (and I know some of you are reading this because there are so many of you out there): You have no right whatsoever to any more than half the width of the sidewalk or path when someone is trying to pass you (whether they're going the same direction or the opposite one). They should not have to scrunch up their shoulder and balance along the far edge of the walkway, or worse yet, get off it entirely, to avoid you. There is no god-given right to walk side-by-side with your friends, taking up more than half of the walkway. If you're not in the habit of going single file when others need to pass, you're simply thoughtless and inconsiderate. Please take this opportunity to examine your behavior, and the thoughtless attitude that underlies it and probably manifests in other obnoxious behaviors, and change.

["Mad" Miles]

Dixon, She was literally hitting on you! Didn't you get the message? As for the rest of your always rational comments. See my reference to rat studies.

Taishon, It's the endorphins. They justify everything.

[jbox]

I think we can all agree that there will always be a small percentage of habitual knuckleheads and unrepentant quarterwits in any group you want to talk about, be it cyclists, car drivers, dog owners, vegans, pseudo intellectuals, conspiracy theorists, or waccoons. I just try to smile, wave, and get on with my day and my life...

[wildarabella]

As I shared at the beginning of this thread my concern is the safety of park and trail users, this is paramount. Rudeness, verbal attacks are horrible (as I experienced) but if one of these speeding cyclists is unable to avoid a child or dog or person the consequences could be tragic. The reason for 15 mph is it's a safe speed to change direction/slow down/stop. (Yes - you just might have to stop your bike on the trail)

I called the County Parks Division and spoke with Scott Bolin who is the person in charge of the West County Trail to see what can be done about these folks. He said he will review the signage and talk to other staff members. He was quite aware of the problem. Hopefully they will start to warn/ticket speeding cyclists.

Please bicyclists ~ slow down ~ we all share the trails. If you want to go fast stay on the roads. And thank you to the ones who ring their bells to alert walkers to their presence.

Sharing is good.

[taishon]

Wow ! I just wanted to express my gratitude for al the proactive responses to my original post ! I really appreciate it. If the bikers, in question, are up on the boards then I think they got the message..if not, at least there is the possibility of action that will help alleviate the issue.
Thanx !
Sal

As I shared at the beginning of this thread my concern is the safety of park and trail users, this is paramount. Rudeness, verbal attacks are horrible (as I experienced) but if one of these speeding cyclists is unable to avoid a child or dog or person the consequences could be tragic. The reason for 15 mph is it's a safe speed to change direction/slow down/stop. (Yes - you just might have to stop your bike on the trail)

I called the County Parks Division and spoke with Scott Bolin who is the person in charge of the West County Trail to see what can be done about these folks. He said he will review the signage and talk to other staff members. He was quite aware of the problem. Hopefully they will start to warn/ticket speeding cyclists.

Please bicyclists ~ slow down ~ we all share the trails. If you want to go fast stay on the roads. And thank you to the ones who ring their bells to alert walkers to their presence.

Sharing is good.

[Orm Embar]

Hi Everyone,

I have not posted to this thread yet because there is so much here that I could comment on, but life is incredibly busy and I don't have time to write all that I might wish to. I am sorry to hear of Sal's nasty experience at Ragle the other day. Yuck, I hate it when my momma-bear self has to rise up and then the provoker doesn't get to hear my roar. It seems that rudeness has become an acceptable way of interacting with fellow human beings these days. At least here in Northern California where we live. It was not always so, and rudeness is not as accepted in other areas of our country and world. This is something I often contemplate and it would be nice to start addressing this as a community.

I could say I'm a cyclist, as I use a bicycle to transport my children and myself to all the places we go, Monday through Friday. I'm not into mountain biking or road racing, so for some reason I don't identify myself as a "biker". I just use my bike to get to almost every place I go. In my interactions on the road I notice a differences in behavior between commuter cyclists, tourers, racers, recreational cyclists, homeless folks, and children. It is a varied bunch, each individual also has their own way, but there is one thing that I see often and is a behavior common to all the different groups: cyclists often do not come to a full stop at stop signs or stop lights. A few barely even slow down. While most of these instances that I witness do not put anyone in harm's way (empty intersections), some do create unsafe situations. More importantly, this disregard of the law gives a bad impression to our fellow community members.

If all of us on peddled contraptions could do only one thing to make a better impression, I would choose stopping wherever we are required to stop as operators of vehicles. I know it can be annoying and a lot more work to stop at a stop sign when no other vehicles are there, but I can say from experience that people are watching and people appreciate the simple gesture of following this simple rule. I do this with a 60 lb bicycle, loaded with an average of 20lbs of cargo, plus myself and often my 7 year old. When I come to a stop while peddling uphill, admittedly I do not put my foot down, but my wheels do stop for a few seconds while I balance and then continue on my way (as long as it is my turn to go).

I have found that simply stopping at stop signs has rubbed off on other cyclists. Maybe it's a coincidence, but maybe seeing a petite female with a noticeably heavy bike stopping has reminded those with lighter bikes and no loads that we do have to follow the rules of the road. I know of 3 other cyclists that I see frequently who now pause at intersections when they didn't before. Who knows who they have influenced?

-L

[Dixon]

I think we can all agree that there will always be a small percentage of habitual knuckleheads and unrepentant quarterwits in any group you want to talk about, be it cyclists, car drivers, dog owners, vegans, pseudo intellectuals, conspiracy theorists, or waccoons.

Agreed, jbox--though I'm not sure I'd say it's a small percentage.

I just try to smile, wave, and get on with my day and my life...

But I assume (overly optimistically?) that some percentage of these people may actually improve their behavior if they get enough disapproving feedback from those around them. Sometimes they're just so unconscious that they didn't even realize they were stepping on others' toes--most of us have done that at one time or another--so a bit of a "don't tread on me" snarl may help them be more aware. Even if someone's so sociopathic that their (nonexistent) concern for the rights of others cannot be appealed to, it's possible to give them such unpleasant social consequences that they'll think twice before treating others so obnoxiously next time. So I feel not just a right, but in some ways a social responsibility, to stand up for myself and convey strong disapproval when people behave as assholes.

[jbox]

Agreed, jbox--though I'm not sure I'd say it's a small percentage.


But I assume (overly optimistically?) that some percentage of these people may actually improve their behavior if they get enough disapproving feedback from those around them. Sometimes they're just so unconscious that they didn't even realize they were stepping on others' toes--most of us have done that at one time or another--so a bit of a "don't tread on me" snarl may help them be more aware. Even if someone's so sociopathic that their (nonexistent) concern for the rights of others cannot be appealed to, it's possible to give them such unpleasant social consequences that they'll think twice before treating others so obnoxiously next time. So I feel not just a right, but in some ways a social responsibility, to stand up for myself and convey strong disapproval when people behave as assholes.

Yes, Dixon, of course you're right as usual. Believe me, I've stepped on a few toes in my time as my extended family will attest and do feel a moral or civic duty to point out bad or dumb behavior. I once saw a guy litter the sidewalk and I picked up the trash and walked over to him and handed it to him and said "Oh, you dropped this." I'm just saying sometimes you can't sweat the small stuff and it's better to just slide on by. Besides, you never know when a quarterwit may want to have a fistfight or worse.

[Barrie]

One of the most important things cyclists could do to make themselves safe on the roads would be to follow the laws themselves. I say this as a cyclist and as a car driver who is tired of idiots with out helmets coming towards me on the wrong side of the road as I drive my car. We are learning how to do bikes as transportation, not just as toys, and it is taking a while to figure it all out. Pedestrians on paved paths in parks could be more considerate and not take up both sides of the path, especially on paths like the Joe Rodota Trail and the Santa Rosa Creek Trail. Also, dog walkers need to learn how to fit in also. Most are really good, a few don't seem to get the concept of sharing the path. Barrie

About 20 minutes ago I was walking with my young kid on the paved path around Ragle park. A biker came screaming towards us on the hill that occurs after a partly blind turn past the tennis courts. You didn't slow down even though I was glaring at you and getting ready to jump in your way in case my kid didn't get out of your way in time. You yelled that there were 6 other bikes behind you (as if you were somehow royalty or owned the park). The woman behind you was going almost as fast and I loudly said "Why so damned fast !?!" As the rest of your group (who were going at a decently safe speed passed I told them they needed to talk to you as you were going too fast).

My message : YOU ARE F****** INCONSIDERATE SELFISH ENTITLED JACKASS ! THE REST OF YOUR GROUP ARE F******* A******S FOR NOT YELLING AT YOU TO SLOW DOWN ! The speed limit is 15 mph which you and the second in line were breaking and, regardless, you were going too fast for safety for the conditions in the park (blind corners, lots of families strolling, multiple fitness station stops etc). I complained to the park ranger and I wasn't the only one. Honestly, do you the f****** IQ of a Boston Fern or were you dropped on the head as a kid ?!?

Side note- I would have reacted far more confrontationally had my young kid not been with me. Anyone up on legalities as to what my options were ? I strongly considered physically stopping the guy and doing a citizen's arrest or some such.

I love biking and do it often buts a******s like this that give it a bad name. There are PLENTY of places in the county where you can go like a bat out of hell that don't involve imperiling kids and families.

Sal