RE: Debt Ceiling...Action

[Speak2Truth]

one of your silly political citation's compares indentured servitude to socialism. the other compares religious refugees and their effort to live by their belief to socialism. yes i understand the one dictionary definition of socialism you cited. the meaning of this word has been expanded by the political hashing you seem so fond of. you can call any modern mainstream usa pol you want a socialist, and this is another meaning of the word. i have no interest in arguing the meaning of words. when someone like you plays with the meaning of words to count political coup i get irritated. because you are silly, you make no sense, and you want us to take you seriously! a new word i just learned; idiocracy!

Socialism, by definition, vests control over the means of production and the product of labor in the State. It is enforced. The key word there is "control", which is not voluntary "giving". "Control" means power to compel and that power rests in the hands of the Ruling Elite. That's Socialism.

"Charity" and "Sharing" have their own definitions.

The folks at Jamestown were compelled to live under Socialism, as you can learn from the writings of the Jamestown Governors. You can also learn from their writings how the harm done by enforced collectivism was reversed by instituting private ownership of property and the product of labor.

Again, it is a FACT that the Founders of the USA had learned from the horrible consequences of enforced collectivism. They ensured the US Government was chained and bound and given no permission to take wealth from some to redistribute to others like Fannie Mae or GM or folks who are turning in their "clunkers" to get a new car...

[rossmen]

you read more and more like a libertarian. i self describe as an anarchist (of which there are many types). i have a soft spot for libertarians, so close yet so far away from the reality of this day. the question is, how do we move from what is to a world of choice, freedom, and responsibility, and what role does the state have in this journey?

every day we make choices that create the world, very few are political. the most common is how we listen (to often not at all), and learn (truly there is no end to this)! i have checked out your facts and found them to be modern rumor created for a political agenda. i see this a lot from all points of the political spectrum. these are the chains which bind us to the tyranny of government.

Socialism, by definition, vests control over the means of production and the product of labor in the State. It is enforced. The key word there is "control", which is not voluntary "giving". "Control" means power to compel and that power rests in the hands of the Ruling Elite. That's Socialism.

"Charity" and "Sharing" have their own definitions.

The folks at Jamestown were compelled to live under Socialism, as you can learn from the writings of the Jamestown Governors. You can also learn from their writings how the harm done by enforced collectivism was reversed by instituting private ownership of property and the product of labor.

Again, it is a FACT that the Founders of the USA had learned from the horrible consequences of enforced collectivism. They ensured the US Government was chained and bound and given no permission to take wealth from some to redistribute to others like Fannie Mae or GM or folks who are turning in their "clunkers" to get a new car...

[Speak2Truth]

you read more and more like a libertarian.

I suppose I am rather Liberal, in the original sense of the word. I believe in individual Liberty and the idea that we only delegate very limited duties to Government to take care of certain needs, like common defense, that we cannot handle as individuals. In other words, I'm an American.

i self describe as an anarchist (of which there are many types)

I would love to discuss that with you. I don't really understand Anarchists. Could you explain what you mean by it?

how do we move from what is to a world of choice, freedom, and responsibility, and what role does the state have in this journey?

Step One is simply to restore our nation's obedience to the US Constitution. It was created specifically to protect our choice, freedom and personal responsibility as mature adults in control of our own lives. It gave very limited power to Politicians and forbade them from going beyond those limits. Freedom is possible - it was written into Law by the people who created this nation. It is a duty of The People to enforce that Law.

i have checked out your facts and found them to be modern rumor created for a political agenda.

I have repeatedly seen people on this forum make such claims yet they studiously avoid actually presenting evidence to support such claims. I'm waiting...

[rossmen]

evidence isn't needed for the obvious. the cato institute? comparing a proto capitalist 15th century company using indentured servents to populate the first colony in the new world to socialism? the list goes on and on. pointing out the poor quality of your sources is evidence enough, then actually mentioning the silly reasoning i am going beyond what is needed.

anarchists believe that we don't need collective power over authority to be in a beautiful and just world. people who think (NOT), like you are why this is an effective, temporary strategy in a complex world. my political belief encourages me to hope and my realistic assessment and understanding encourages me to participate.

i think the us constitution is cool and you write about it like it is a fixed dead document! thank the goddess this is not true! one thing that i believe is true is that change happens. our nations laws have changed a lot. while we might agree that this has not always been "good", overall the change has been effective in keeping up with citizen wishes. including the current legislative mega committee to guide federal debt/budget decisions. will it work? probably not yet it is a good show:)

enjoys the comments, hoping for the best...

I suppose I am rather Liberal, in the original sense of the word. I believe in individual Liberty and the idea that we only delegate very limited duties to Government to take care of certain needs, like common defense, that we cannot handle as individuals. In other words, I'm an American.



I would love to discuss that with you. I don't really understand Anarchists. Could you explain what you mean by it?



Step One is simply to restore our nation's obedience to the US Constitution. It was created specifically to protect our choice, freedom and personal responsibility as mature adults in control of our own lives. It gave very limited power to Politicians and forbade them from going beyond those limits. Freedom is possible - it was written into Law by the people who created this nation. It is a duty of The People to enforce that Law.



I have repeatedly seen people on this forum make such claims yet they studiously avoid actually presenting evidence to support such claims. I'm waiting...

[Speak2Truth]

evidence isn't needed for the obvious.

Of course not. You need merely make a claim and assert it is obvious. No evidence is needed whatsoever.

LOL!!

anarchists believe that we don't need collective power over authority to be in a beautiful and just world. people who think (NOT), like you are why this is an effective, temporary strategy in a complex world. my political belief encourages me to hope and my realistic assessment and understanding encourages me to participate.

Okay, let's test how realistic the notion is.

Look around you. When there is no authority to impose consequences for wrongdoing, do people become righteous, respectful of others, keep agreements, keep their hands off others' property, treat other as equals...

Is our legal system and police force mere busy-making for a problem that does not exist because humans can live together in peace and harmony when there is no externally imposed consequence for wronging another?

How do Anarchists handle issues like the common defense against aggressors and invaders? Do they have a system of laws to deal with accusations of wrongdoing by one person against another - or are there no wrongdoers in that peaceful and beautiful world?

i think the us constitution is cool and you write about it like it is a fixed dead document!

A very poor choice of words.

Laws restraining wrongdoing against other people are never "dead". So long as humans are capable of mischief, laws that restrain them are wise, contemporary and must be upheld.

If you truly despise Individual Rights, you might be okay with politicians freely ignoring the Constitution after SWEARING to uphold and defend it as a condition of their employment. In that case, you ally yourself with the lawless, with the people who are LEAST trustworthy in a position of power, the people MOST likely to do harm!

[rossmen]

perhaps you suffer from some kind of political autism or something. frustrating writing with someone who can't understand the political agenda of the web sites you present as factual information. this is only the beginning of what you don't seem to understand. i hope you keep doing your own research, please look beyond partisan propaganda.

Of course not. You need merely make a claim and assert it is obvious. No evidence is needed whatsoever.

LOL!!


Okay, let's test how realistic the notion is.

Look around you. When there is no authority to impose consequences for wrongdoing, do people become righteous, respectful of others, keep agreements, keep their hands off others' property, treat other as equals...

Is our legal system and police force mere busy-making for a problem that does not exist because humans can live together in peace and harmony when there is no externally imposed consequence for wronging another?

How do Anarchists handle issues like the common defense against aggressors and invaders? Do they have a system of laws to deal with accusations of wrongdoing by one person against another - or are there no wrongdoers in that peaceful and beautiful world?

A very poor choice of words.

Laws restraining wrongdoing against other people are never "dead". So long as humans are capable of mischief, laws that restrain them are wise, contemporary and must be upheld.

If you truly despise Individual Rights, you might be okay with politicians freely ignoring the Constitution after SWEARING to uphold and defend it as a condition of their employment. In that case, you ally yourself with the lawless, with the people who are LEAST trustworthy in a position of power, the people MOST likely to do harm!

[Iolchan]

L K :

Even the Monetarists & followers of Milton Friedman
Know that We don't have to "Borrow Money"

:

Can Congress Issue Debt Free Money?

The U.S. Supreme Court, in Julliard v. Greenman (110 U.S. 421, 448) in 1884 ruled that:

"Congress is authorized to establish a national currency, either in coins or in paper, and to make that currency lawful money for all purposes, as regards the national government or private individuals."

Nobel Prize winning economist, Milton Friedman describes some of the history of the battle leading up to this historic decision by the U.S. Supreme Court:

"During the Civil War, Congress authorized greenbacks and made them a legal tender for all debts public and private. After the Civil War, in the first of the famous greenback cases, the Supreme Court declared the issuance of greenbacks unconstitutional. One 'fascinating aspect of this decision is that it was delivered by Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, who had been Secretary of the Treasury when the first greenbacks were issued. Not only did he not disqualify himself, but in his capacity as Chief Justice convicted himself of having been responsible for an unconstitutional action in his capacity as Secretary of the Treasury.'

"Subsequently an enlarged and reconstituted Court reversed the first decision by a majority of five to four, affirming that making greenbacks a legal tender was constitutional, with Chief Justice Chase as one of the dissenting justices.

"It is neither feasible nor desirable to restore a gold-or-silver coin standard, but we do need a commitment to sound money. The best arrangement currently would be to require the monetary authorities to keep the percentage rate of growth of the monetary base within a fixed range. This is a particularly difficult amendment to draft because it is so closely linked to the particular institutional structure. One version would be:

"Congress shall have the power to authorize non-interest-bearing obligations of the government in the form of currency or book entries, provided that the total dollar amount outstanding increases by no more than 5 percent per year and no less than 3 percent.’

"It might be desirable to include a provision that two-thirds of each House of Congress, or some similar qualified majority, can waive the requirement in case of a declaration of war, the suspension to terminate annually unless renewed.

"A Constitutional Amendment would be the most effective way to establish confidence in the stability of the rule. However, it is clearly not the only way to impose the rule. Congress could equally well legislate it."

* * *

Quoted from: A Program for Monetary Stability, by. Dr. Milton Friedman, Fordham University Press (N.Y. 1960, 1992), pgs. X, 66-76, 100-101; and, Free to Choose by Dr. Milton & Rose Friedman, Harcourt Brace & Co. (San Diego 1980, 1990), pgs. 307-308.

* * *


"The two major parties are the two wings of the same bird of prey."

- Walter W. Liggett, in a Speech at a Farmer-Labor Chautauqua in Rochester, Minnesota, May 1, 1934 -

[Alex]

[This was originally posted by ubaru. It was reposted by Moderator due to system difficulties. Click for more info.]

I just came upon this long thread and have read some of it. I don't know if anyone mentioned Obomba's big lie. See below.

From Ron Paul's weekly update July 18th 2011

Debt Ceiling Drama

The debt ceiling debate is providing plenty of opportunity for political theater in Washington. Proponents of raising the debt ceiling are throwing around the usual scare tactics and misinformation in order to intimidate opponents into accepting more debt and taxes. It is important to distinguish the truth from the propaganda.


First of all, politicians need to understand that without real change default is inevitable. In fact, default happens every day through monetary policy tricks. Every time the Federal Reserve engages in more quantitative easing and devalues the dollar, it is defaulting on the American people by eroding their purchasing power and inflating their savings away. The dollar has lost nearly 50% of its value against gold since 2008. The Fed claims inflation is 2% or less over the past few years; however economists who compile alternate data show a 9% inflation rate if calculated more traditionally. Alarmingly, the administration is talking about changing the methodology of the CPI calculation yet again to hide the damage of the government's policies. Changing the CPI will also enable the government to avoid giving seniors a COLA (cost of living adjustment) on their social security checks, and raise taxes via the hidden means of "bracket creep." This is a default. Just because it is a default on the people and not the banks and foreign holders of our debt does not mean it doesn't count.


Politicians also need to acknowledge that our debt is unsustainable. For decades our government has been spending and promising far more than it collects in taxes. But the problem is not that the people are not taxed enough. The government has managed to run up $61.6 trillion in unfunded liabilities, which works out to $528,000 per household. A tax policy that would aim to extract even half that amount of money from American families would be unimaginably draconian, and not unlike attempting to squeeze blood from a turnip. This is, unequivocally, a spending problem brought about by a dramatically inflated view of the proper role of government in a free society.


Perhaps the most abhorrent bit of chicanery has been the threat that if a deal is not reached to increase the debt by August 2nd, social security checks may not go out. In reality, the Chief Actuary of Social Security confirmed last week that current Social Security tax receipts are more than enough to cover current outlays. The only reason those checks would not go out would be if the administration decided to spend those designated funds elsewhere. It is very telling that the administration would rather frighten seniors dependent on social security checks than alarm their big banking friends, who have already received $5.3 trillion in bailouts, stimulus and quantitative easing. This instance of trying to blackmail Congress into tax increases by threatening social security demonstrates how scary it is to be completely dependent on government promises and why many young people today would jump at the chance to opt out of Social Security altogether.

We are headed for rough economic times either way, but the longer we put it off, the greater the pain will be when the system implodes. We need to stop adding more programs and entitlements to the problem. We need to stop expensive bombing campaigns against people on the other side of the globe and bring our troops home. We need to stop allowing secretive banking cartels to endlessly enslave us through monetary policy trickery. And we need to drastically rethink government's role in our lives so we can get it out of the way and get back to work.





“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.” - Adolf Hitler

Business as usual.

Let's make it unusual!!!



Restore America Now
www.RonPaul2012.com
www.dailypaul.com
www.RevolutionPAC.com/superbomb


Liz

[Alex]

[INDENT][This was originally posted by ubaru. It was reposted by Moderator due to system difficulties. Click for more info.]

This is Ron Paul's weekly update the following week:

July 25, 2011The Pesky Neighbor and the Debt Ceiling
Imagine you had a pesky neighbor who somehow took out a mortgage on his house in your name and by some legal trickery you were obligated to pay for it. Imagine watching this neighbor throw drunken parties, buy expensive cars, add more rooms to the house, and hire dozens of people to wait on him hand and foot. Imagine that he also managed to take out several credit cards in your name. One by one, he would max them out and then use your good name and credit to obtain another credit card, then another and then another. Each time, this neighbor would claim that he needed the new credit card to pay interest on the other maxed out credit cards. If he defaulted on those cards, your credit score would be hurt and when you wanted to buy something for yourself, it would be more difficult to get a loan and the interest you paid would be higher. Imagine that you mulled this over, and time after time, said nothing as he filled out more credit applications so he would not have to default on the other debt taken out in your name. Meanwhile, another shiny new Mercedes appears in his driveway. At what point do you think you might get tired of this game? And, even though you are left with no really good options, do you think you might eventually tell him to go ahead and default, just stop spending your money!

This analogy demonstrates the position we are in with our government and the debt ceiling. The government has run up a huge debt in the name of the American people, who are sick and tired of being on the hook for it. There are no really good options left. Defaulting on a portion of the debt may not be without costs, but it is better than handing the government yet another credit card.
The government is using the usual scare tactics to strong-arm the people into going along with more spending. Remember the rhetoric surrounding the big bailout of October 2008? We were told, not that this would be calamitous for the banks, but for the people, who would continue to experience massive job losses and foreclosures. We were told that the economy would sink into a deep recession if this money was not handed out to too-big-to-fail corporate cronies. So, after much hand-wringing, leaders from both parties, against unprecedented public outcry, agreed to shower money on the banks and increase the debt. The banks learned nothing, except that Washington will come to their rescue, no matter what. The people, however, continued to lose their jobs and houses anyway, and here we are, still in a deep recession.


When you read the above example, your first reaction might have been to dismiss the neighbor's debt as illegitimate and in no way your responsibility or your problem. You would be right. No fair-minded legal system would hold you responsible for such a debt, and would instead cart your thieving neighbor off to jail. Yet Congress can impose liabilities on you, your children, and grandchildren without your consent, and even without your knowledge. This is another example of government holding itself above the law. Much like the TSA claims the right to molest us, yet arrested a woman who turned the tables last week, stealing somehow becomes legitimate when the government does it.


We supposedly live in a nation of laws. For once, government needs to heed the law regarding the debt ceiling.

Restore America Now
www.RonPaul2012.com
www.dailypaul.com
www.RevolutionPAC.com/superbomb

[Alex]

[This was originally posted by lynn. It was reposted by Moderator due to system difficulties. Click for more info.]

...'restore America now' my a*s!!...

I WISH TO GOD YOU WERE KIDDING!!
Paul is NOT a viable candidate...Won't ever happen...
And anyway...No freakin' way would I EVER vote for Ron Pau!!...

You want to hand the election win off to someone like right wing/corporate kiss-ass freakzoid Perry???

Do you know what happened tonight at the Repub. show???
Do you know what that sick audience applauded???

If sicko nutcase Perry gets elected, I'm gonna' blame the nutbaggers, Ron Paul groupies like you, and lazy bummed so called 'progressives', and anyone else who couldn't stop whining long enough to vote...

Do you even know what Paul says he would like to do if elected? He's freakin' nuts...
He might be right on about a couple things...But hey, so was Hitler!...
Any murderous freak can be right about something, but that sure doesn't mean you should vote for 'em...

This is class war among other things...So please, get a clue...If you don't vote for Obama, then I hope you're happy if Perry get's in, and really shoves most of us, and this country up to where the sun don't shine...
--------------

Obama '2012

[Alex]

[This was originally posted by someguy. It was reposted by Moderator due to system difficulties. Click for more info.]

[COLOR=blue]
Any murderous freak can be right about something, but that sure doesn't mean you should vote for 'em...

This is class war among other things...So please, get a clue...If you don't vote for Obama, then I hope you're happy if Perry get's in, and really shoves most of us, and this country up to where the sun don't shine...
--------------

Obama '2012

Murderous freak = Obama for sure. If you vote for him you are complicit in several wars, and the death of many thousands.

Funny that you hate Rick Perry so much.... He was a democrat, still acts like a democrat (raised taxes twice in Texas), and was Al Gore's campaign manager for Texas when Al Gore ran for president.

Oh and it seems to me like Obama has murdered more people that Rick Perry.....

[Barry]

[Hi Crew - There were a lot of posts to this thread that were made during the period after the last backup was taken. I'm sorry but we can't repost all of them separately. Here's the full text of all the post, sans links and formatting. Sorry about that, but it's the best we can do and stay sane. - Barry]

For the Ron Paul cult: https://www.alternet.org/teaparty/152...me_caution_--_

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09-08-2011 12:19 PM TopTop #74
zenekar

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
Murderous freak = Obama for sure. If you vote for him you are complicit in several wars, and the death of many thousands.

Funny that you hate Rick Perry so much.... He was a democrat, still acts like a democrat (raised taxes twice in Texas), and was Al Gore's campaign manager for Texas when Al Gore ran for president.

Oh and it seems to me like Obama has murdered more people that Rick Perry.....

Yes, Rick Perry is an angel of compassion: https://prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tappe..._death_penalty

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Hotspring 44

09-08-2011 01:08 PM TopTop #75
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Hotspring 44

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

You pro Ron Paul-re's, are obviously too young and inexperienced to know much about Ralph Nader because he was locked out of the debates in 1991 - for the 1992 election cycles and again shut out of debates in 2008 election cycle as are all non corporate and non billionaire 3rd party presidential candidates just like Ron Paul would have been if he didn’t cave-in and register as a republican from Libertarian Party:
After over a year of campaigning as the Libertarian Party nominee, Paul received very little media coverage, and was excluded from Presidential debates.


BTW, here is what Ralph Nader said about the bail out in 2008: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7aC7CyOP0Q
Think about it.

An article (excerpt) by Ralph Nader about Obama's Week leadership in regards to republicans and the debt ceiling:
The headlines came quickly after President Obama concluded the deficit-debt deal with the Republicans Sunday evening. There were few shades of gray. The New York Times editorial was titled "To Escape Chaos, a Terrible Deal: Democrats won almost nothing they wanted except avoiding default."

It was truly, as the Times pointed out, "a political environment laced with lunacy." But don't blame it all on the Republican "mad dogs" on Capitol Hill playing chicken with the economic plight of the American people and its wobbling economy. It was President Obama who surrendered.

In one of the most inept episodes of Presidential-Congressional relations, Mr. Obama managed to give the Republicans more than they expected and leave the Democrats with less than the Republicans offered. The Republicans never expected Mr. Obama to give in entirely on tax increases on the wealthy, on the reviled oil industry giants and other corporate tax escapees. The Republicans even agreed to $800 billion in new revenue over ten years. Obama fumbled the ball day after day, and with the August 2 debt ceiling deadline looming, he fell to the extortionists. Unlike Presidents Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush II, who routinely expected and got debt ceilings raised without conditions.

The rest of the article: https://www.nader.org/index.php?/arch....html#extended

Ralph Nader: Obama Is a Political Coward - Democracy NOW!

Ralph Nader's Solution to Debt Crisis - Democracy NOW!


Ralph Nader: Corporate socialism runs US government

Ron Paul’s anti tax coupled with a republican congress would ultimately maintain (the) status quo of the "corporate socialism" that already exists and would ultimately lead to; more homeless women & children, more starving, unemployed, homeless people, repeals of worker safety laws, Social Security being dismantled, and more homeless elderly with virtually no chance of employment what so ever with the minimizing of and eventual dismantlement of the food stamp program (FDA) etc, etc, etc.

Of course, Rick Perry would do even more harm than Ron Paul.
Rick Perry as president would = a modern day form of GOVERNMENT sponsored McCarthyism that would end up becoming more anti worker, and more so in favor of BIG BUSINESS over everyone else.

The "Republican"/"Libertarian" theme is a cloaked form of what would amount to a BAIL OUT OF BIG BUSINESS in the form as tax exemptions while starving all moneys that now go for protections that we have which have a direct affect on maintaining our well being and health in hard times....

...There would be likely an immediate suspension or outright repeals of many of, if not all the current provisions to the Clean Water and Clean Air Acts, also, no more meaningful or enforced federal worker safety laws (DRILL, BABY, DRILL; to hell with worker safety on the offshore drilling rigs and refineries, allow (the) "free market" to "control" FRACing and get rid of EPA.
Who cares about surface and Well water, the gulf coast environment, or California coast ether for that matter?
We "need" gas!... ...To hell with the environmental protections, FULL SPEED AHEAD, DRILL, BABY, DRILL!... ...Pipe the shale sludge in over pristine land!... ...Let the "Free Market" control the future oil spills from the ruptured pipeline with "corporate socialism"!)...

...Also, a comeback of other harmful things like “allowable levels” of a plethora of toxins: pesticide drift, for (as) example... ...going into your child’s school and your work place which could very well be (you) in the field, on the “farm” working in the cold, wet inclement winter, or 100+ degrees F in the shade but you would be doing back breaking farm labor in the baking hot sun for less than $2.00 per hour and be required during harvest time to work up to 16 hours a day 6 days a week and "only" 8 hours on Sunday, but only if you go to church, with NO workman’s comp because farm labor is exempt or voluntary at best.
Either Ron Paul or Rick Perry would do away with federal minimum wage because otherwise, the corporate agriculture “owners” could not make enough “profits” (the "free market" requires it) ...

...Also, no Social Security or any other federally funded whatsoever; social safety net to depend on WHEN your back goes out or you get Injured, or end up with Cancer from the well known causes of exposure to pesticides, fungicides, herbicides, too much exposure to the direct sunlight and other carcinogens that are all prevalent in corporate, monoculture “farms” and other workplace sources that would become exempt or unfairly minimize their liability exposure from EPA rules or "Class Action Lawsuits" which would all be eliminated, if not sooner, then later, by either Ron Paul or Rick Perry.

Oh, some of (or at least 1 anyway) Ron Paul-re's here stated in other threads; that they only eat food from so-called “healthy” sources; should consider, the very definite possibility of, pollen drift from multinational bank owned or any other corporate (Monsanto, etc.), controlled, GMO monoculture crops devastating the ability to have any truly organic food crops available to you that you all claim to choose for yourselves to eat...

...Then consider also because of the (distorted) interpretations both Paul and Perry have expressed regarding civil rights and States rights; the likely possibility that California would have an influx of people that could easily compare to the historic dust bowl times of when, people from the mid west migrated to California for farm labor jobs which would mean more competition and scarcity of openings for those future “coveted” farm labor and, these days, any other low wage jobs with California’s comparatively higher standards of worker protections, state minimum wage, and other state mandated safety nets that Paul or Perry would do away with on the federal level...

...If they don't get sent to prison labor camps for vagrancy or other discriminatory, prejudice based "laws" like being out on the streets or not "obeying" some sort of "curfew" {predicated on false pretext} (because they have become homeless; because they lost their social safety net) in those increasingly Jim Crow like States that pass or uphold outdated, or wrongful discriminatory laws that are based on prejudice and/or merely attack the symptoms and appearances instead of doing the work of dealing with the root causes, (which may indeed actually be the politicians own lack of ability, willingness, laziness, incompetent and/or they have been bought-off or manipulated by the larger "corporate interests".).

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Dixon

09-08-2011 01:18 PM TopTop #76
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someguy

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote zenekar wrote: View Post
Yes, Rick Perry is an angel of compassion: https://prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tappe..._death_penalty
No he's not.

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09-08-2011 01:28 PM TopTop #77
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Dixon
Deity
Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
Murderous freak = Obama for sure. If you vote for him you are complicit in several wars, and the death of many thousands.
Yup, Obama's a murderous freak. That was clear since before he was elected. This reflects the fact that, in an imperialistic, extremely militarized, war-based economy with strong fascist tendencies, being a murderous freak is a requirement for the job of President. Even when we're not "at war", every President, Democrat or Republican, supports murder and oppression all over the world through various covert operations and through our client states, such as Israel and Indonesia, and our blood-spattered friendly dictators, who help us vampirize their own countries at horrendous cost to their people. I say this not to defend Obama, but to put his murderousness in perspective. And if you think Rick Perry would be less murderous--well, that's just laughable.

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09-08-2011 02:30 PM TopTop #78
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Iolchan
Supporting Member
Re: Debt Ceiling...Action


Yo!

Attila, {aka zenekar,} You referred us to the link:

zenekar wrote:
For the Ron Paul cult: https://www.alternet.org/teaparty/152...me_caution_--_
I opened up the link and found an article by Adele M. Stan, AlterNet's Washington bureau chief. In it, she wrote:

"Paul first drew the attention of progressives with his vocal opposition to the invasion of Iraq. Coupled with the Texan's famous call to end the Federal Reserve, that somehow rendered him, in the eyes of the single-minded, the GOP's very own Dennis Kucinich. Throw in Paul's opposition to the drug war and his belief that marriage rights should be determined by the states, and Paul seemed suitable enough to an emotionally immature segment of the progressive movement, a wing populated by people with privilege adequate enough to insulate them from the nasty bits of the Paul agenda."
Throughout the whole article Adele Stan offers no supporting evidence of this allegation regarding Dennis Kucinich - that he is "the GOP's very own;" i.e. that he belongs to the GOP - it remains just an allegation. Just wondering, Attila: Are you advocating Adele Stan's position on Kucinich?

I am aware that Kucinich's wife is a Massey - an old Anglo-Norman family with close historic ties to the House of Lords, & the City of London. But where is the evidence that Kucinich has sold his soul to the G.O.P.? In my opinion Kucinich seems to be one of the few progressive Democrats still in the field; in spite of his marriage contract with a person of dubious {albeit, illustrious} lineage.

Just wondering. Care to comment?

Cheers,
Mark

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09-08-2011 04:33 PM TopTop #79
rossmen

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

seems to me the writer was comparing paul's situation in the gop to kucinich's place in the democratic party, an outlier who is mostly ignored by his party. they both have a place here on wacco!

Quote Iolchan wrote: View Post

Yo!

Attila, {aka zenekar,} You referred us to the link:

I opened up the link and found an article by Adele M. Stan, AlterNet's Washington bureau chief. In it, she wrote:

Throughout the whole article Adele Stan offers no supporting evidence of this allegation regarding Dennis Kucinich - that he is "the GOP's very own;" i.e. that he belongs to the GOP - it remains just an allegation. Just wondering, Attila: Are you advocating Adele Stan's position on Kucinich?

I am aware that Kucinich's wife is a Massey - an old Anglo-Norman family with close historic ties to the House of Lords, & the City of London. But where is the evidence that Kucinich has sold his soul to the G.O.P.? In my opinion Kucinich seems to be one of the few progressive Democrats still in the field; in spite of his marriage contract with a person of dubious {albeit, illustrious} lineage.

Just wondering. Care to comment?

Cheers,
Mark

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09-08-2011 04:35 PM TopTop #80
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someguy

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote Dixon wrote: View Post
Yup, Obama's a murderous freak. That was clear since before he was elected. This reflects the fact that, in an imperialistic, extremely militarized, war-based economy with strong fascist tendencies, being a murderous freak is a requirement for the job of President. Even when we're not "at war", every President, Democrat or Republican, supports murder and oppression all over the world through various covert operations and through our client states, such as Israel and Indonesia, and our blood-spattered friendly dictators, who help us vampirize their own countries at horrendous cost to their people. I say this not to defend Obama, but to put his murderousness in perspective. And if you think Rick Perry would be less murderous--well, that's just laughable.
And yet liberals still want to give more power and responsibility to the federal government. Does that seem like a good idea to anyone who can actually see the government for these traits?

BTW I agree that Rick Perry would be more murderous, that is why I am voting for Ron Paul, the only anti-war, anti-fascist, and anti-imperialist candidate we have to vote for. I hope all lovers of peace would do the same.

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09-08-2011 04:52 PM TopTop #81
zenekar

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote rossmen wrote: View Post
seems to me the writer was comparing paul's situation in the gop to kucinich's place in the democratic party, an outlier who is mostly ignored by his party. they both have a place here on wacco!
That seems to be a reasonable explanation. I doubt that Kucinich buys into much of Ron Paul's ideology.

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09-08-2011 05:16 PM TopTop #82
zenekar

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
And yet liberals still want to give more power and responsibility to the federal government. Does that seem like a good idea to anyone who can actually see the government for these traits?

BTW I agree that Rick Perry would be more murderous, that is why I am voting for Ron Paul, the only anti-war, anti-fascist, and anti-imperialist candidate we have to vote for. I hope all lovers of peace would do the same.

The power is in the hands of private interest of the elite ruling class and corporations that pull the strings of government. Ron Paul may appear anti war but he's for privatizing most, if not all, government institutions (in a democracy government represents the people, not the dictates of corporations). Lovers of peace? Giving free reign to corporations to loot resources around the world will not bring about peace. Fascism: eliminating women's choice.

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09-08-2011 05:57 PM TopTop #83
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someguy

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote zenekar wrote: View Post
The power is in the hands of private interest of the elite ruling class and corporations that pull the strings of government. Ron Paul may appear anti war but he's for privatizing most, if not all, government institutions (in a democracy government represents the people, not the dictates of corporations). Lovers of peace? Giving free reign to corporations to loot resources around the world will not bring about peace. Fascism: eliminating women's choice.
You might call a women's choice to kill her unborn baby fascism, others call it what it is: murder. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad or guilty, there is always a higher truth to all of these issues. Women already have the right to choose. Tell me, who is forcing women to have an unplanned pregnancy? Protecting life is not fascism, it is humane, natural, sane, compassionate, and peaceful.

And if you think that Ron Paul is giving free reign to corporations to loot resources around the world, you might be thinking of neo-liberals such as Bill Clinton or Barack Obama instead. Check in with yourself on that.

Why wouldn't you want to get rid of the governments influence on our lives if their power is as you say "in the hands of private interest of the elite ruling class and corporations "? Who wants to give those people and institutions more power? I'll tell you who, Obama, Perry, Romney, Bauchmann, and all their wonderful supporters... But not Ron Paul. He is the only candidate who wants to strip that power from the corporate and elite puppet-masters and give the power to the people.

Whats so bad about eliminating the income tax? Don't you want more money to live? I certainly could use it. Don't you want to stop paying for wars, and a government you know very well is corrupt? I do.

Whats so bad about deregulation? Every time a regulation gets passed, its written by the corporate and elite puppeteers and their companies have all the loopholes built in... But there's no loophole built in for the working class, or small business... We all get stuck having to drown in regulations while the big players/controllers are exempt. How about we wipe the slate clean, rid ourselves of these burdens, and give ourselves a chance at success, because with regulations up the ying yang like we have now do nothing but widen the gap between the rich and poor. And hey, if we so feel a regulation is necessary, why not let the local governments take charge on that. We knows whats best for ourselves, and no one size fits all solution is ever going to truly fix a problem.

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09-08-2011 06:25 PM TopTop #84
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Hotspring 44

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
And yet liberals still want to give more power and responsibility to the federal government.
That's not the way I see it.
Of course, "the government" (officials) should follow the same rules "it" requires the rest of us to "follow".

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
BTW I agree that Rick Perry would be more murderous, that is why I am voting for Ron Paul, the only anti-war, anti-fascist, and anti-imperialist candidate we have to vote for. I hope all lovers of peace would do the same.
I knew that Obama was (and still is) a "politician" in Nov 2008, that is 1 of the reasons why I voted for Ralph Nader.
RE: the "debt ceiling":


Confessions of a GOP Operative Who Left "the Cult": 3 Things Everyone Must Know About the Lunatic-Filled Republican Party
Former GOPer: "If you think Paul Ryan and his Ayn Rand-worshipping colleagues aren't after your Social Security and Medicare, I am here to disabuse you of your naiveté."
To those millions of Americans who have finally begun paying attention to politics and watched with exasperation the tragicomedy of the debt ceiling extension, it may have come as a shock that the Republican Party is so full of lunatics.

To be sure, the party, like any political party on earth, has always had its share of crackpots, like Robert K. Dornan or William E. Dannemeyer. But the crackpot outliers of two decades ago have become the vital center today: Steve King, Michele Bachman (now a leading presidential candidate as well), Paul Broun, Patrick McHenry, Virginia Foxx, Louie Gohmert, Allen West.

The Congressional directory now reads like a casebook of lunacy.
It was this cast of characters and the pernicious ideas they represent that impelled me to end a nearly 30-year career as a professional staff member on Capitol Hill.

A couple of months ago, I retired; but I could see as early as last November that the Republican Party would use the debt limit vote, an otherwise routine legislative procedure that has been used 87 times since the end of World War II, in order to concoct an entirely artificial fiscal crisis. Then, they would use that fiscal crisis to get what they wanted, by literally holding the US and global economies as hostages.
It is NOT TRUE that
"Ron Paul, the only anti-war, anti-fascist, and anti-imperialist candidate we have to vote for"
Excuse me, but, I do mean to rain on your parade; Ralph Nader has been a presidential candidate more times than RP... ...True fact.
RP I think is somewhat of a religious and prejudiced (even though he may be in denial of it doesn't mean he is not) that is more of a "my way or the highway" kind of person that has closer ties to the Christian Reconstructionism end of the political spectrum than the truly freedom end of the political spectrum. There seems to me to be a duality... meaning:
"4. n.Theology a. The concept that the world is ruled by the antagonistic forces of good and evil."
...in his persona which I think has a potential to be dangerous because people that strongly favor a particular fundamentalist religious system having a duality at it's core, coupled with the quest for political power has the potential to wreak havoc in a mixed religion and non-religious society of people living together in the same geographical areas like the USA. There is a Bill of Rights as amended into the Constitution for very good reasons.

RP would voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964; he said because of the (private) "property rights element".

He (RP) is in a state of denial to believe there is not or would not be racial and other discrimination today if there were never a Civil Rights Act of 1964... ...E gads!

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09-08-2011 08:19 PM TopTop #85
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ubaru
Supporting member
Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Ron Paul’s anti tax coupled with a republican congress would ultimately maintain (the) status quo of the "corporate socialism" that already exists and would ultimately lead to; more homeless women & children, more starving, unemployed, homeless people, repeals of worker safety laws, Social Security being dismantled, and more homeless elderly with virtually no chance of employment what so ever with the minimizing of and eventual dismantlement of the food stamp program (FDA) etc, etc, etc.
Uh Hotspring, you're leaving out of the equation how much money would be available if the empire building troops were brought home. That alone would radically change our economy and everyone's for the better. RADICALLY!!

I don't understand you Ron Paul haters. Every time he talks he's the only one that dares talk about what matters. He talks straight. He knows his history. It brings him incredible integrity. The rest seem like, well....the rest.

When you guys quote critics of Ron or think of him as a lunatic fringe, that's EXACTLY what the ruling elite and THEIR media would like to have you believe. They either paint him as fringe lunatic, take his words out of context, or when he's just done something great like tied the debate at Ames, Iowa, with Michelle Bachmann, they have a media blackout on him. If Michelle hadn't been on home turf, he'd have won the debate. They are FREAKED OUT that he's doing so well. And he IS doing really well if you tune in to the grass roots sources of info. That should be reason enough to sift the chaff from the wheat when you read something about him.

They put elite, Perry into the race after seeing that Ron is a real threat to the whole corporate power structure. But Perry didn't even show up to debate at Iowa. And Ron is doing REALLY well if you tune in to the grass roots sources of info. That should be reason enough to sift the chaff from the wheat when you read something about him.

Consider his words when you read them. Are you even reading them before you reply? Why do you trust what others say about him (the ruling elite) over your own thoughts about what he is saying? Keep your mind open, if you can, and just listen.

I have an open mind and I'll listen to the strangest people sometimes. Lindsey Williams is a Baptist preacher and spent years rubbing shoulders with the Big Oil guys as their Chaplin in Prudhoe Bay Alaska, where, incidentally, they discovered an oil field bigger than all of Saudia Arabia's. They're keeping it secret. From them he learned that the price of oil was to be manipulated in the summer to fall of 2008 from $143 to $50 a barrel as an act of economic warfare on the Arab nations. It went to $32. I certainly don't agree with Baptist preachers but I took $1,000 and turned it into $33,000 in 2 months on that advice. So consider listening to folks who you wouldn't necessarily agree with, because some of them have the right piece of information at the right time.



Right after 12:25 minutes into this video it hits me again. Ron's got rock solid integrity based on the basics like upholding Habeous Corpus which brought humanity out of the dark ages in the 1500's. Post 9/11 politics has thrown that out for terrorists, and now they're applying it to people like you and me. TSA in the airports anyone? SWAT teams are raiding farmers, a man who didn't pay his student loan, and just about anybody now. Activists like you and me, all war veterans, and Constitutionalists have been reclassified as terrorists. We're at the point of having to think twice before criticizing the state. (If you're not aware of this yet, you soon will be). To me Fascism is the biggest issue, it cannot coexist with the Constitution, and Ron Paul is the only one who can stop it at the Presidential level. If we don't get Ron, we get the Gestapo. That's what his motto is about.

Liz


Restore America Now
www.RonPaul2012.com
www.dailypaul.com
www.RevolutionPAC.com/superbomb

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09-08-2011 09:29 PM TopTop #86
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Hotspring 44

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
...Tell me, who is forcing women to have an unplanned pregnancy?
Any fertile male rapists, and also those that would use the law to prevent a woman from birth control or circumvent or prevent a woman to an emergency visit to the hospital for a preventative "morning after" pregnancy preventative pill or other treatment before actual development of fetus (pre-fetus {before viability} stage after insemination).

Don't forget that there are some circumstances where the life of the mother going to even 1st trimester would have a high likelihood of death to both the mother and the fetus which in some cases has major likelihood of fetal death anyway. Sad, difficult, heart wrenching, but true and a real situation for some unfortunate women's'.

Who is supposed to make the choice under those dire circumstances?
Wouldn't government (law/s) forcing the mother to her death in such dire circumstances be "murder too?
What about the woman?... ...doesn't, or shouldn't she have a say-so in a situation like that?
Why should anyone else but the woman and her family with her input if she is concuss under circumstances like that be making the decision?
At some point, in a siduation like rape and in ones like I described it is a matter of privacy verses someone else's morality. That is where I think that so-called "Pro-Choice" is a privacy matter and not a place for government invasion.


Quote someguy wrote: View Post
Protecting life is not fascism, it is humane, natural, sane, compassionate, and peaceful.
No matter what your morality is, intentionally shooting a doctor dead that happens to preform abortions is still 1st degree murder, but, some would (and have) called it justifiable. I don't.

Why does the so-called compassion from the RW seem to abruptly end when the single mother and her children live in abject poverty and need financial help and ask the government for assistance with nutritional food, safe shelter, heat in the winter, safe, and quality schools in all neighborhoods, urban, suburban and rural alike?

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
And if you think that Ron Paul is giving free reign to corporations to loot resources around the world, you might be thinking of neo-liberals such as Bill Clinton or Barack Obama instead. Check in with yourself on that.
I have.
The country went broke in large part because the Bush era tax cuts for the wealthiest at a critical time and, yes, the republican sponsored bill that Bill Clinton signed that repealed the Glass Steagall Act of 1932: with no safeguards to replace it with a more modern protection; (yes "regulation") in it's place was a horribly bad decision for sure.
The argument for preserving Glass–Steagall (as written in 1987):

1- Conflicts of interest characterize the granting of credit (that is to say, lending) and the use of credit (that is to say, investing) by the same entity, which led to abuses that originally produced the Act.

2- Depository institutions possess enormous financial power, by virtue of their control of other people’s money; its extent must be limited to ensure soundness and competition in the market for funds, whether loans or investments.

3- Securities activities can be risky, leading to enormous losses. Such losses could threaten the integrity of deposits. In turn, the Government insures deposits and could be required to pay large sums if depository institutions were to collapse as the result of securities losses.

4- Depository institutions are supposed to be managed to limit risk. Their managers thus may not be conditioned to operate prudently in more speculative securities businesses. An example is the crash of real estate investment trusts sponsored by bank holding companies (in the 1970s and 1980s).
...and just look at what happened!
Quote someguy wrote: View Post
Why wouldn't you want to get rid of the governments influence on our lives if their power is as you say "in the hands of private interest of the elite ruling class and corporations "? Who wants to give those people and institutions more power? I'll tell you who, Obama, Perry, Romney, Bauchmann, and all their wonderful supporters... But not Ron Paul. He is the only candidate who wants to strip that power from the corporate and elite puppet-masters and give the power to the people.
NOT "the only" one; Ralph Nader is there too!
Ralph Nader also wants to put the shysters in jail and recover as much of the lost, no; STOLEN dollars and property from the fraudulent scammers that now own the R & D political parties.
If anyone here thinks I am, or have been endorsing Obama, you have mistaken my viewpoints for something they are not.

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
Whats so bad about eliminating the income tax?
If there is none of; corporate profit, Import, Capitol gains, Wall Street Transaction taxes or fees of some sort, without a cleaning of the "Fractional Reserve" system first, the country will have a 2nd violent Civil War and go totally broke for real.
It would be extremely dangerous to put the country through a situation of a virtual no revenues input overnight. There has to be a viable structure (plan) to make such a radical change, particularly without recovering or otherwise compensating for the STOLEN revenue ($ trillions) before the changes take affect.

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
Don't you want more money to live?
Yes, but with a "living wage, I don't expect more exemptions for the most wealthy will do much if anything to accomplish that.

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
...Don't you want to stop paying for wars, and a government you know very well is corrupt? I do.
So do I, but I would rather the people realize that and tell our government to just stop waring, otherwise the war will keep going on at the expense of the poorest first, working it's way up the ladder until the privileged (super rich) get pinched for some bucks instead of reaping the spoils of war like they do now.
Unfortunately, the majority of voters still believe the wars are a necessary ("evil"), we are in the minority on that at this point in time. BTW more "Liberals" holding office believe the "wars" need to end now than "Conservatives" holding office do.

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
Whats so bad about deregulation?
It depends on what gets "deregulated", For example:
1- The repeal of the Glass Steagall Act of 1932 was in essence "deregulation".
2- What about the "regulation" that makes ingredients in food containers on the labels?... ...Maybe you are not allergic to anything but some people are so allergic to some foods that eating the wrong food can kill them... ...So, is it OK with you to deregulate that?
3- Is it alright with you that a large corporate entity can depose of toxins into the environment without some sort of regulations; IE: enforceable laws?...
...If you think it is corrupt now, just think what it would be like for small businesses to compete if the big business were the so-called "watch dogs". Their stooges would make the corruption of today look infantile in comparison.
4- I want to have drinking water that is not toxic. Do away with regulations and forget about that altogether.
5- I don't want a nuclear power plant in my neighborhood.
6- I don't want to not have a choice to eat GMO food or not. Food container labeling regulations are the only way to even have a reasonable chance for that "free choice".
Whats wrong with having real and truthful information requirements for food containers?
7- I want my and your automobile tires to be within minimum specifications and be labeled truthfully and accurately.
8- I don't want to have overloaded semi tractor trailers on the highways being commonplace and being a unnecessary danger on the road
8- I would want the anesthesia in the oral surgeons office to be what it says it is on the label and the anesthesiologist to be competent.
9- I expect the law enforcement officers to be properly trained using a reasonable standardized training and tests; (in other words, Regulated using laws that establish minimum requirements).
10- I don't want to have any airplane pilots that are not qualified to fly the aircraft they are flying over my head.
11- Government regulations also regulate the government itself and the holders of office.
I think the real intent of the RW's that are in office now is that what thy really want is for themselves to be deregulated so thy can screw us even harder with their ideology's.
12- there is more but I have said enough for now on that.

Quote someguy wrote: View Post
Every time a regulation gets passed, its written by the corporate and elite puppeteers and their companies have all the loopholes built in... But there's no loophole built in for the working class, or small business... We all get stuck having to drown in regulations while the big players/controllers are exempt. How about we wipe the slate clean, rid ourselves of these burdens, and give ourselves a chance at success, because with regulations up the ying yang like we have now do nothing but widen the gap between the rich and poor. And hey, if we so feel a regulation is necessary, why not let the local governments take charge on that. We knows whats best for ourselves, and no one size fits all solution is ever going to truly fix a problem.
The U.S. Constitution was a "one size fits all" that was a good start, wasn't it?

Leaving all laws up to the local yokels is a recipe for horrible injustices to the minority class without basic human and social rights. The poor would get run out of town and would become too heavy a load on other places that are more humanistic. That would be unjust and has the potential to be used as a form of a precursor of a takeover and insurrection in a "culture war"... ...Looks good on paper but is too generalized the way you presented it; IOW, bad idea as stated; IMHO.

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09-08-2011 10:26 PM TopTop #87
ubaru's Avatar
ubaru
Supporting member
Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

I just want to report that my smart meter activism has gotten enough "attention" from invisible data collectors that when I go to access my hotmail address book, it says:

This profile is temporarily unavailable

You may have posted content to your Profile (often unintentionally) that violates our Code of Conduct. Check your Hotmail inbox or the inbox associated with your Windows Live ID for messages from support.

If you are still not sure why your Profile is unavailable, please contact Windows Live support for additional assistance.

There are no message of "support" in my inbox.

I had just gotten off the phone with 3 other players, and it may be that my phone is tapped. All phones have microphones built in, landlines included.

I wrote in another post that we are past the crossroads and knee deep in Fascism and it's up to us to determine how much of a stranglehold it gets. Fascism has just crossed my threshold and has gone into my computer and confiscated all the contacts in my address book so that it's harder for me to work against it.

You know, the last thing on my mind right now is abortion.

Who's going to vote for Ron Paul with me, because THIS IS JUST TOO MUCH!!!

Liz

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09-08-2011 11:30 PM TopTop #88
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Hotspring 44

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote ubaru wrote: View Post
Uh Hotspring, you're leaving out of the equation how much money would be available if the empire building troops were brought home. That alone would radically change our economy and everyone's for the better. RADICALLY!!
No I haven't at all. It has been you and someguy that have left out Ralph Nader as if he doesn't even exist who has said the same thing.

Quote ubaru wrote: View Post
I don't understand you Ron Paul haters. Every time he talks he's the only one that dares talk about what matters. He talks straight. He knows his history. It brings him incredible integrity. The rest seem like, well....the rest.
First of all, I can't make it any clearer than to say; I DON'T "hate Ron Paul". Please I would appreciate it if you wouldn't confuse my genuine concerns and stated disagreements on the issues with hatred. That is an incorrect assessment of my meaning and statements herein.

To the best of my knowledge, Ralph Nader has not had to reverse anything he said that I am aware of. Ron Paul on the other-hand had a little credibility gap or at least he was not ready for the question on what would he have done otherwise to mitigate the said "property rights issue" on the Chris Mathews show regarding the civil rights act of 1964 as I have covered in a previous post.
Ralph Nader is ready for "Hard Ball" questions because he has gotten used to people trying to trip him up with curve ball questions because he has it covered.

Quote ubaru wrote: View Post
When you guys quote critics of Ron or think of him as a lunatic fringe, that's EXACTLY what the ruling elite and THEIR media would like to have you believe.
Same happens with Ralph Nader; I can only say as a piece of advise is; get use to it it is part of politics and the situation surrounding them. Besides the Tea Partier's (BTW, I am not referring to Paul) for the most part are "lunatics" IMHO.
I never said Paul was a "lunatic".
Quote ubaru wrote: View Post
They either paint him as fringe lunatic, take his words out of context, or when he's just done something great like tied the debate at Ames, Iowa, with Michelle Bachmann, they have a media blackout on him.
Hay wait a minute, I mentioned the so-called media "blackout" of RP in a previous post, the same one where RP said in his own words that he would have voted against the civil rights act of 1964 because of the "property rights issue".. He said that; I am not "putting words in his mouth" so, please don't confuse me with others that do.

Quote ubaru wrote: View Post
If Michelle hadn't been on home turf, he'd have won the debate. They are FREAKED OUT that he's doing so well. And he IS doing really well if you tune in to the grass roots sources of info. That should be reason enough to sift the chaff from the wheat when you read something about him.
Michelle and Perry are aggressive RWer's and they are preaching to their base in those places.
Of course Paul is going to be subject to their wrath; you might as well get used to it, it's not going away any time soon.

Quote ubaru wrote: View Post
IThey put elite, Perry into the race after seeing that Ron is a real threat to the whole corporate power structure. But Perry didn't even show up to debate at Iowa. And Ron is doing REALLY well if you tune in to the grass roots sources of info. That should be reason enough to sift the chaff from the wheat when you read something about him.
I do even better than that, I listen to and read quotes and go to Paul's website and separate the "wheat from the chaff" more effectively that way.

I just don't believe that doing away with Social Security is a good idea at all. It seems to me that Paul instead of revising it, he wants to get rid of it and call it welfare. That is one of the places, but not the only one where he looses my potential vote.
Perry, on the other hand, thinks Social Security is unconstitutional and a "ponzi scheme" which is lunacy as far as I am concerned.

Quote ubaru wrote: View Post
Consider his words when you read them. Are you even reading them before you reply? Why do you trust what others say about him (the ruling elite) over your own thoughts about what he is saying? Keep your mind open, if you can, and just listen.
As I have stated, to the waccobb board, I have read and listened to Paul, and I just disagree with him on some important to me issues, plane and simple.
Just because I don't have the same viewpoint as you do does not mean I am parroting others opinions.

Quote ubaru wrote: View Post



Right after 12:25 minutes into this video it hits me again.
OK I watched it, thanks for the "12:25 minutes" info, I do agree with him on that; I never stated that I didn't, it's not new news to me.
Too bad the Tea Party and the other Republicans don't agree with him, as is all too clear in that video.
As far as I can tell, he doesn't have much of a chance for wining the primary based on that scene.

Just admit that the majority of the Republicans running for presidential office of today are quasi-fascist at best or they are the real deal neo-fascists.

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09-08-2011 11:42 PM TopTop #89
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Hotspring 44

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

Quote ubaru wrote: View Post
I just want to report that my smart meter activism has gotten enough "attention" from invisible data collectors that when I go to access my hotmail address book, it says:

This profile is temporarily unavailable

You may have posted content to your Profile (often unintentionally) that violates our Code of Conduct. Check your Hotmail inbox or the inbox associated with your Windows Live ID for messages from support.

If you are still not sure why your Profile is unavailable, please contact Windows Live support for additional assistance.

There are no message of "support" in my inbox.

I had just gotten off the phone with 3 other players, and it may be that my phone is tapped. All phones have microphones built in, landlines included.

I wrote in another post that we are past the crossroads and knee deep in Fascism and it's up to us to determine how much of a stranglehold it gets. Fascism has just crossed my threshold and has gone into my computer and confiscated all the contacts in my address book so that it's harder for me to work against it.

You know, the last thing on my mind right now is abortion.

Who's going to vote for Ron Paul with me, because THIS IS JUST TOO MUCH!!!

Liz

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09-09-2011 01:18 AM TopTop #90
Hotspring 44's Avatar
Hotspring 44

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action

FYI, for those that believe that Social Security and medicare are the largest debit drivers, here is some info about the misleading media situation that we have been and are still in:
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showth...533#post140533

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09-09-2011 05:57 AM TopTop #91
lynn

Re: Debt Ceiling...Action


lolchan..."That was the last time I ever voted for any presidential candidate at all... Since then, I have basically followed the old Anarchist aphorism, “Don’t Vote; It Only Encourages Them.”
..."To tar me with the LaRouche brush, Dear Lynn, is a bit of a low blow – but I’ll take my own words about The Four Agreements, to heart, and not take it personally. Bless you."...


Nice to know you encourage tyranny.
And all those Corporatists who like it when people don't show up to vote, give you a big fat wet kiss right now!...
I think you should trade places with someone who is living under tyranny right now, who can't vote...I'm sure they would appreciate it...
Nice to know all those women, and others who struggled and died to get the vote doesn't mean anything to you...
My statements were not 'taring' you with 'LaRouche'...you misunderstood my meaning...
And yes, I think it's really silly to think of Obama as a 'stepin-fetchit'...
He knew exactly what he was getting into...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And here's a diferent take than the typical idea on 'stepin'-fetchit'....

..."The way they make it sound, it's like black people are permanently harmed by Stepin Fetchit," Walker says. "And I don't agree with that — I don't think it's a bad character. I think it's a funny character." Walker points out that the Fetchit character is actually a subversive trickster — he never got around to fetching anything.
"The lazy man character that [Perry] played was based on something that had come from slavery," Watkins says. "It was called 'putting on old massa' — break the tools, break the hoe, do anything to postpone the work that was to be done."
Finally, the white characters would become exasperated and do the work themselves. "And blacks understood it perfectly, and laughed heartily at it," Watkins says. For his part, Perry was laughing all the way to the bank. By the mid-1930s, he was a millionaire with a fleet of luxury cars and expensive suits."...
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5245089

===========================================================================

someguy - Murderous freak = Obama for sure. If you vote for him you are complicit in several wars, and the death of many thousands.
---------------
And we've basically had a war economy since WW2...
I'm going to assume you are homeless and penniless, and some kind of 'breatharian' since you must never buy anything like food with U.S. mint money...

...BTW I agree that Rick Perry would be more murderous, that is why I am voting for Ron Paul, the only anti-war, anti-fascist, and anti-imperialist candidate we have to vote for. I hope all lovers of peace would do the same.'...


Another way of stating you will be happy to allow Perry (or who-ever they nominate - and no, it won't be Paul) to get voted in...

===================================

Hotspring...." "

Maybe it's something in the water??...

..."Just admit that the majority of the Republicans running for presidential office of today are quasi-fascist at best or they are the real deal neo-fascists."

***The term 'fascist' has been gettin' thrown around way to casually for yrs. now...I wish people would stop it...It's inappropriate...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

OBAMA '2012

[Hotspring 44]

Maybe it's something in the water??...

Psycho-cotic/active ingredients in the “Tea” perhaps?

The term 'fascist' has been gettin' thrown around way to casually for yrs. now...I wish people would stop it...It's inappropriate...

Yo, lynn,
In my case; here in this discussion, I disagree because the way I used the word "fascist" is correct and is quite ‘appropriate’ and I do believe what I stated has a reasonable basis in fact.

When I used the word "fascist", I meant it as:

"2. n (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) any person regarded as having right-wing authoritarian views"

Of course if you either do not except that definition; (1) I think that it is on you to at least explain why the definition as stated above is incorrect regarding why the actual meaning of what I said is (so) “inappropriate”, (if that is what you were referring to: my use of the word “fascist”), or, (2) if you believe that Rick Perry doesn't have or has not expressed "Right-wing authoritarian views" that is one thing where we may have an honest disagreement where we can have differing views on that, which could be a worthy topic to discuss; otherwise, the discussion of the usage of certain types of "buzz words" (?) and the role they play in the realm of semantics (spin?) should probably be a thread of it’s own.

It’s interesting that our language has single words which have differing connotations depending on the context and intent of the person using them.

There is a natural tendency for people to sometimes misinterpret the intended meaning of the actual statement someone makes.

There are many ways we can misinterpret a particular statement that someone made even though the statement if interpreted as was meant would otherwise make (more contextual) sense; of course, weather we agree with a statement as it was intended or not, is another matter.

Semantics can be cumbersome at times, that is for sure.
Sometimes the best we can do in some cases is to make an honest attempt to understand what was actually meant.

[Hotspring 44]

[Hi Crew - There were a lot of posts to this thread that were made during the period after the last backup was taken. I'm sorry but we can't repost all of them separately. Here's the full text of all the post, sans links and formatting. Sorry, about that, but its the best we can do and stay sane. - Barry]

Thanks Barry, Alexia and others (?).
Staying "sane" is a good thing.

[lynn]

iolchan..."I don’t encourage tyranny at all - anywhere. I am especially opposed to economic tyranny...
I am living under tyranny. Right Now. Here, in America."...

I figured someone would say that sooner or later...
There's been tyranny for god-knows how long...This is the world...Full of injustice, and horrible things sometimes...
Nothing new...We are all a part of it, whether we like it or not...
And most of us probably know at least one person who currently lives here, wants to live here, who came from another country. Because as far as 'tyranny' goes...This is a pretty mild form of it...Tons of people living in other countries still want to come here...For good reason...
We've still got the right to vote, and other things - and I'm sick of people whining, and being passive nit-wits...
I sure know I do not want to live in a country where I can't vote!...

That 'anarchist aphorism' (posted earlier) is bullshit...
Jehovah's witnesses, and other religious people don't vote either, because they are waiting for the second coming of Christ, or God to come save the world...
Those that love to abuse power, don't want people to vote...They don't give a crap why anyone doesn't vote, and when people don't, that gives them even more advantage.


"There are only two jurisdictions in the entire Western Hemisphere where the Excel Model, Sun-Mar toilet is not allowed; and Sonoma County is one of them. Fact.
"Friends of mine who are paralegals informed me"...

Well, don't know why that toilet is banned, but if it's for no good reason...That really sucks...and sounds like people should keep trying to change that law, and get rid of it...
Okay, so I understand at least one reason why you don't vote...

"The Bankers who hired O’Bama to do their dirty work are the real racists. They continually refer to Arabs as “sand-niggers” and goodness only knows what they say about Obama behind his back. He is their footservant, and he can be replaced."...

I'm sure the Arabs have plenty of laughs at what they call us Americans, and other people too. The Arabs have so much money dripping out of their ears, and laughing while walking to the bank for decades now, I doubt if they even give much of a crud who calls them 'sand-niggers'...
And I know some of their extremists wouldn't mind blowing me up just because I'm an American...The only ones I feel bad for are those women who feel, and are oppressed...
(not sure why you brought up the Arabs, but, oh well)...

And I don't give a damn if people think Obama is some 'footservant'...This is the country and government we have right now - and it's darn better than most...
It still makes a difference who our President is...And if Perry or someone like him is the other one coming down the pike, we should work our damn butts off to try and stop that.

If it doesn't matter to people who gets appointed to the SCOTUS, who is our Rep., or if public schools disappear, and labour is even more demeaned, and women's choices are ruined, that old people will lose Social Security, and more leaders don't care if you die because you can't afford health care...
Then fine...sit on your duff, be a lazy fool, and keep whining away while the extreme, right-winger- nutcase corporatists keep taking over...

"O.K. Lynn, I concede it may have been a little silly to put it that way – but it isn’t racist."

I wasn't thinking it was racist...Just silly...

..."then Obama is worse than you could possibly imagine. So I ask you, why are you still supporting him after the Budget betrayal? – in 2012, no less?"...

(Oh man...Can't any of you left-winger idealists, get off your - "I won't vote, or support anyone who doesn't fit into my perfect sense of justice" mode?
NO-ONE is going to fit into your perfect little box!...Every single politician who becomes president will probably lie about something, change their minds, and disappoint you greatly if you have much of any expectations about him/her.)

Okay, let me attempt to make this perfectly clear...AGAIN!...

BECAUSE I DON'T WANT A WHACKJOB,
NASTY (EXTREME right-winger-corporatist-kiss ass, anti-social security, GO AHEAD AND DIE IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD HEALTH CARE) Repub. LIKE RICK PERRY TO BE OUR NEXT PRESIDENT!!

Next to Rick Perry and the others, Obama is a SAINT!

Clear enough?
---------------------------------------------------------

OBAMA 2012!!!!!!!

[Iolchan]

Reply to Lynn

iolchan wrote:
"That was the last time I ever voted for any presidential candidate at all... Since then, I have basically followed the old Anarchist aphorism, “Don’t Vote; It Only Encourages Them.”

..."To tar me with the LaRouche brush, Dear Lynn, is a bit of a low blow – but I’ll take my own words about The Four Agreements, to heart, and not take it personally. Bless you."...

lynn wrote:
Nice to know you encourage tyranny.

I don’t encourage tyranny at all - anywhere. I am especially opposed to economic tyranny - to the palpably horrible tyranny of Wall Street and the City of London; the multinational Corporations that reside in Basel, Geneva & Zurich; to the Bank for International Settlements and the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, and to their fiscal agent on Wall Street, the Federal Reserve Bank.

The Money Lords are the authentic tyrants, and they are the ones who select who will win, place, and show, in the rigged elections for “Republicans” & “Democrats” in this duopoly of theirs.

lynn wrote:
And all those Corporatists who like it when people don't show up to vote, give you a big fat wet kiss right now!...

The reason I no longer vote is simple: In the Year 2003, The Permit and Resource Management Department of Sonoma County sent me a “boilerplate letter” essentially threatening to come down my right-of-way with a D-6 Bulldozer, and tear down my hand-crafted Cottage in the hills; All because I did not have a Septic System hooked up to the toilet. Instead, I have a Sun-Mar Excel model, state-of--the-art non-flush composting toilet, which is the appropriate technology for this land.

There are only two jurisdictions in the entire Western Hemisphere where the Excel Model, Sun-Mar toilet is not allowed; and Sonoma County is one of them. Fact.

Friends of mine who are paralegals informed me that I would stand a better chance of not losing my house – and land - to the State, if I went down to the Voter Registrar’s office, and read myself off the lists of Registered Voters. So I did. I am now a non-resident alien. I am not a “resident” of the State of California. Instead, I am a Sovereign Soul who dwells on the Earth, and I acknowledge, I am only passing through. I have hope of a better city - one not made with hands.

lynn wrote:
I think you should trade places with someone who is living under tyranny right now, who can't vote...I'm sure they would appreciate it...

I am living under tyranny. Right Now. Here, in America.

lynn wrote:
Nice to know all those women, and others who struggled and died to get the vote doesn't mean anything to you...

It so happens I come from three generations of Feminists on my maternal side. My great-grandmother, Ida Fleischer, was an activist as a Suffragette. She got arrested, more than once. Throughout, She had the complete support of her husband, Charlie Fleischer. Edith Fleischer , my grandmother, joined the Flatbush chapter of the Young People’s Socialist League in 1914, when she was thirteen, and very pro-actively organized and marched for Woman’s Suffrage throughout her teens, until it came about, in 1919. My mother, Marda Liggett Woodbury, was a member of the League for Women Voters, for many, many decades. I honor and revere their Memory.

lynn wrote:
My statements were not 'taring' you with 'LaRouche'...you misunderstood my meaning...

Actually, Lynn you did say :

lynn wrote:

Maybe, you should go hang out with the LaRouche (Obama is Hilter) culties, and yak with them...

What was I to do with that? So I iterate: I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the U.S. Labor Party, nor of the National Caucus of Labor Committees. However I do not hate or despise ol’ Lyn Marcus, either. I don’t hate anyone - including O’Bama. In fact, I pray for him. Things would be very much more dreadful if some “lone [right wing] nut” took it in hand to shoot the Man. Civil War = Race War, in the streets.

lynn wrote:
And yes, I think it's really silly to think of Obama as a 'stepin-fetchit'...

O.K. Lynn, I concede; to say that O’Bama is a “Steppin- fetchit” may not be le mot juste. And it may have been a little “silly” to put it that way – but it isn’t racist. The Bankers who hired O’Bama to do their dirty work are the real racists. They continually refer to Arabs as “sand-niggers” and goodness only knows what they say about Obama behind his back. He is their foot-servant, and he can be replaced.

Obama is a Chicago politician who got elected by invoking the Legacy of Martin Luther King, Junior, but in practice, he has shown himself to be a Warmonger of the first order. He is the lackey and servant of the Bankers and the Bond-holding Class. There, is that better?

I confess, I am just a little angry at this calculated and cynical betrayal of the American people. I loved Martin Luther King, Jr. He was a Mentsh.

lynn wrote:
He knew exactly what he was getting into...

Did he? If he actually did know what he was getting into, and what he would actually have to do, in order to please his Masters, and stay alive – and not get smoked, like John Fitzgerald Kennedy, {who was not filling in the dots the way he was supposed to do} - then Obama is worse than you could possibly imagine. So I ask you, why are you still supporting him after the Budget betrayal ? – in 2012, no less?

As I wrote on another thread :

The President has not Surrendered. He is only following Orders = Orders which come from the folks at the top of the Pyramid, the Men@Rockefeller Center, who hang in the snazzzy Men's Club in the closed Quarters at the top of Bankers' Trust @ 16 Wall Street, kids. Those are the Men who hired 'Bama to do his Job on the American People. In this respect the recent installment of the "Debt-ceiling Crisis" was a charade and a farce. It is Theatre. Not the sort of Play we go to enjoy at Shakespeare in the Park, but Theatre none-the-less.

The so-called "hard right," the "tea party" folks, who sleep in their offices in the Congress Building, are not the Power Elite, kids. They are not the ones pulling the strings behind Debt-Collection. The tea party folks are simply, vestigially, trying to Remember a moment when the Grand Old Republican Party stood for "balanced budgets." This in itself is not bad. -- And most of the Tea-partiers were not reading from a prepared Script; one they did not write, the way 'Bama continually does.

No, this is not "political war" - It is Class War - and the main players are not the ones who get to be seen on prime-time network Television. The main action was behind the Scenes, kids: among Los Ricos; the Bond-holders, who were supposed to get their Quarterly dividends on the first of July. Their checks were late, and they were Pissed !

- Mark Walter Evans -

[lynn]

Don't know if that 'lolchan' post above is an accidental repost, or what?
I 'got' all that other stuff 'lolchan'....I don't have time to respond to everything...
And no, I don't think Obama just 'follows orders'...Disagree with you bigtime on that...
========================

To Barry and moderators -

What? You guys and gals want to stay sane??

What are you, NUTS?


-------------------------------

Obama 2012

[Barry]

To Barry and moderators -

What? You guys and gals want to stay sane??

What are you, NUTS?


-------------------------------

It's too late......

[ubaru]

This August 8th weekly update from Ron Paul is also pertinent to this thread:

Super Congress A Gift to K Street

The Super Congress created by the recent debt ceiling increase deal is a typical example of something nefarious attached to a bigger bill that is rushed through Congress without giving Members ample opportunity to consider the full ramifications. This commission may turn into an early Christmas present for the well-heeled lobbyists of K Street. This is because the commission presents a huge opportunity for lobbying firms to sneak their client's pet projects and issues into whatever legislation is created by the commission. The fact that automatic cuts to defense are named if the committee deadlocks simply signals to the military industrial complex to bring their A game to the lobbying effort.

One red flag I am constantly aware of in my position as a Congressman is that highly complex and convoluted legislation frequently has dangerous provisions hidden in the fine print. Elaborate legislative packages force lawmakers to take the bad with the good, and often if they refuse, they are accused of voting against the positive provision - never mind the blatant Constitutional violations in the bill, the spending, the waste, and the unchecked expansion of government. I don't usually have to read too much of a bill like that before encountering something unconstitutional, or simply unwise. Then I have to vote no.

That doesn't seem to be the case with a majority of legislators, unfortunately. In order to ram through one special interest's favorable treatment or giveaway, a certain amount of horse-trading is done. The end result is mammoth bills with myriads of unrelated provisions that favor those with the best lobbyists at the expense of everyone else.

The creation of a 12 member committee to preside over $1.5 trillion in spending decisions, and the exclusion of the rest of Congress also means lobbying firms can focus their efforts on an anointed few, which is certainly more manageable for them than having to deal with the entire Congress. Every cut considered will, of course, have a recipient on the other end whose livelihood is being threatened. The probable outcome is that any cuts realized will be more a function of lobbying prowess than the merits or demerits of the actual programs on the chopping block.

Make no mistake - I am enthusiastically for cutting government spending. The goal should be to eventually reduce government down to the size and scope of its constitutional limitations. However, the process of getting there must also be constitutional. Concentrating such special authority to fast track legislation affecting so many special interests to a small, select committee is nothing more than an unprecedented power grab. Only fears of an impending catastrophe could have motivated Members to allow this legislation to be rushed through Congress. The founding fathers had strong feelings about taxation without representation and under no circumstances would they have felt excluding 98% of Congress from fiscal decisions was appropriate.

I see nothing good coming out of this Super Congress. I suspect it will be highly vulnerable to corruption and special interests. No benefit can come from such careless disregard of the Founders' design.


Restore America Now
www.RonPaul2012.com
www.dailypaul.com
www.RevolutionPAC.com/superbomb

[ubaru]

And the fallout as described by Ron Paul in his August 15th, 2011 weekly update:

S&P States the Obvious

Politicians did not get much time to pat themselves on the back for supposedly rescuing the economy with the debt limit deal last week. The ink was barely dry when Standard & Poor's downgraded the US debt ratings anyway, roiling world financial markets. Anyone who has taken an honest look at the government's fiscal situation, taken into account how Washington works and the direction it is going would have a very difficult time arguing with S&P's decision, although a strong case can be made that this was too incremental a downgrade and that it took far too long for S&P to admit the obvious.

Nonetheless, the administration nitpicked over a $2 trillion "mistake". S&P rejoined with the fact that $2 trillion here or there hardly makes a difference in the time frame under discussion. That, if nothing else, should tell you the magnitude of the problem. $2 trillion has become a drop in the bucket.

S&P cited Congress's inability to act like grownups and make necessary, meaningful cuts, which is true. I must take issue however, with their suggestion that tax increases are part of the answer. Taking capital out of the private sector, where it can create real value in the form of new jobs and products, and instead giving it to Washington to waste and squander is not the solution. Tax increases may seem penny-wise to some, but in reality they would be very pound-foolish. The government currently takes in $2.2 trillion in taxes per year, which is far too much already. It spends $3.7 trillion, which is ridiculous and criminal. The problem is runaway government spending, not the American people having too much money.

And yet we can't even have a serious discussion about bringing our troops home and ending our expensive occupations around the world – things the president used to claim to favor!

Even without this downgrade, major investors are waking up to what lies down the road for the United States in fiscal terms. China is showing more signs of losing its taste for our debt. Others are following suit. What we are about to see is the end of the dollar as the reserve currency of the world. When that happens, we will no longer be in a position to have pretend debates about things we probably should spend a little bit less on - we will be forced to implement serious spending cuts as our sources of credit dry up. Of course, we can try to postpone the day of reckoning by printing more money but the resulting “inflation tax” will be far worse than a reduction in government benefits.

Hyperinflation devastates the middle class. After Weimar Germany hyper-inflated their currency in the 1920s, an entire life savings couldn't buy a postage stamp. The bank wouldn't even send customers a check for all the money they had saved their whole lives. It wasn't worth the paper it was printed on or the stamp to send it. This is what is meant when it is said that the middle class gets wiped out. The pieces for this to happen here are all falling into place, and have been since 1971. The only way to avoid that sort of chaos now is for Congress to immediately reduce federal spending and take the Constitution seriously again. The welfare/warfare state will end either way, but winding it down responsibly is a far better way to do it.



Restore America Now
www.RonPaul2012.com
www.dailypaul.com
www.RevolutionPAC.com/superbomb

[zenekar]

Ron Paul would do away with Social Security. This is the action of a sane Senator who understands that his job is to represents the people's interest in Congress:

Sanders Introduces Bill to Strengthen Social Security
https://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/...-b2734cf38bdbs

[Hotspring 44]

Ron Paul would do away with Social Security. This is the action of a sane Senator who understands that his job is to represents the people's interest in Congress:

Sanders Introduces Bill to Strengthen Social Security
https://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/...-b2734cf38bdbs

Thanks zenekar .

Raise the "cap" (!!), that is what I have been saying here on waccobb for quite some time now.

The Ron Paul enthusiasts here seem to (for the most part) fit into 1 of 2 categories; 1- younger "voter" that seemingly has no personal reference to Social Security as a benefit for them...
...They think of it as either insolvent, unsustainable, or an outright scam that they will never receive any benefits from by the time they are too old to work competitively enough to either get or hold on to a “job”...


...They seem to have little or no clue to the real possibility that they could become disabled and that they may not have any other adequate means of financial support...


...They give the appearance of thinking they are invincible and therefore need not any social safety net and are willing (itching) to have government yank that right out from under the ones that do (or will) need and use the safety net of Social Security.

2- Older (45+ years), collage educated, self employed, privately insured, professional, individuals that don't think that the money they have been required by law to put into Social Security was as good of an investment as they could have made with the same money if only they didn't have to pay into SS; which BTW may or may not be true, but that is not the point of Social Security to compete with "possibilities", no, SS is a social safety net contract with the people not to be intermingled with speculation like it is somehow supposed to be compared to the boom / bust cycles of the so-called "free market" and Wall Street.

It would simply be wrong to make such an argument why someone shouldn't pay into or have an opt-out option to paying into Social Security.

In the simplest of terms, if it weren't for the Bush tax cuts and the 2 unnecessary wars there would not be a need for such high numbers to go to as far as the amount of $trillions "debt ceiling" is concerned.

Blaming the huge majority of the amount of debt on the poor, sick, disabled, "Liberals", and "Progressives", is essentially, the serial assailant blaming the victims and those who resist the assault.

[Iolchan]

Note: I found this story on : beforeitsnews.com

China’s Central Bank to ‘liquidate’ U.S. Treasuries; NOT
U.S. Dollars, Seeking a More Stable Currency, Like Gold

The debt markets have been warned.


A key rate setter-for China’s central bank let slip – or was it a slip? – that Beijing aims to run down its portfolio of US debt as soon as safely possible.


“The incremental parts of our of our foreign reserve holdings should be invested in physical assets,” said Li Daokui at the World Economic Forum in the very rainy city of Dalian – former Port Arthur from Russian colonial days.


“We would like to buy stakes in Boeing, Intel, and Apple, and maybe we should invest in these types of companies in a proactive way.”


“Once the US Treasury market stabilizes we can liquidate more of our holdings of Treasuries,” he said.


To my knowledge, this is the first time that a top adviser to China’s central bank has uttered the word “liquidate”. Until now the policy has been to diversify slowly by investing the fresh $200bn accumulated each quarter into other currencies and assets – chiefly AAA euro debt from Germany, France and the hard core.


We don’t know how much US debt is held by SAFE (State Administration of Foreign Exchange), the bank’s FX arm. The figure is thought to be over $2.2 trillion.


The Chinese are clearly vexed with Washington, viewing the Fed’s QE as a stealth default on US debt. Mr Li came close to calling America a basket case, saying the picture is far worse than when Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher took over in the early 1980s.


Mr Li, one of three outside academics on China’s MPC, described the debt deals on Capitol Hill as “just trying to by time”, saying it will not be enough to stop America’s “debt dynamic” turning dangerous.


Fair enough, but let us be clear: the reason China has accumulated the equivalent of 6pc of global GDP in reserves (like the US in the 1920s) is because it has held down its currency to gain market share. As Michael Pettis from Beijing University points out tirelessly, the mercantilist policy hollows out US industries and forces America to choose between debt bubbles or unemployment – or, of course, protectionism, though we are not there yet.


Until it abandons that core policy, it has to keep buying foreign assets and lots of dollars. The euro can absorb only so much – 800bn euros so far – before Europeans realize (the French already realize) that Chinese bond purchases are double edged, and the yen the Swissie can’t absorb anything at all. (The governments are intervening to stop it). Besides, China has the same misgivings about euro debt as it does about dollar debt. Perhaps more so after Euroland’s long-running soap opera.


So what Li Daokui said is not bad for the dollar as such. He said there is “$10 trillion” waiting to be invested in the US, if America will open its doors.


It is bad for bonds – or will be. The money will go into strategic land purchases all over the world, until the backlash erupts in earnest. It will go into equities, until Capitol Hill has a heart attack. It will go anywhere but debt.


Yet another reason to be careful of 10-year Treasuries and Bonds below 2pc yields. There is a big seller out there, just itching to let go...

For full story:

https://members.beforeitsnews.com/story/1107/145/Chinas_Central_Bank_to_liquidate_U.S._Treasuries_NOT_U.S._Dollars,_Seeking_a_More_Stable_Currency_Like_Gold.html

[Iolchan]

From: the BBC World News,19 September 2011

Obama plans taxes and spending cuts to reduce deficit

President Obama's call for tax increases will face opposition from Republicans in Congress

President Barack Obama is to unveil plans to cut the US deficit by more than $3tn (£1.9tn) in the next decade.

A White House official said his proposals include an overhaul of the tax code that would raise $1.5tn.

The official said the president would not agree to cuts in health care for the elderly if there were no provisions for rich Americans to pay more tax.

Republicans in Congress have already said they will not agree to any plans to increase taxes.

Mr Obama's plans will be submitted to a congressional deficit-reduction "super-committee" already considering how to cut $1.5tn from the budget deficit.

The committee faces a November deadline to find savings and is not obliged to accept the president's ideas.

The president is scheduled to announce his long-term deficit reduction plan at the White House at 10:30 (14:30 GMT) on Monday.

The proposals being unveiled on Monday are a mix of cuts to spending and tax code changes that would increase rates on the rich.

They include nearly $250bn in cuts to Medicare spending - the healthcare programme for the elderly.

But those cuts will depend on the approval of his plans to raise new tax revenue from high-earners and corporations, reports say.

"He will veto any bill that takes one dime from the Medicare benefits seniors rely on without asking the wealthiest Americans and biggest corporations to pay their fair share," Reuters news agency quoted an Obama administration official as saying.

The $3tn figure includes an estimated $1tn of savings over the next decade from the expected withdrawal of military forces from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Closing loopholes
Over the weekend officials provided journalists with a preview of what the president's plan includes.

On Saturday, officials said Mr Obama wanted a "Buffett Rule" that would see Americans who earn more than $1m pay the same share of tax as those who earn less.

The proposal refers to billionaire financier Warren Buffett, who has complained that he and his wealthy peers pay relatively less tax than the people who work for them.

Many high-income Americans benefit from tax loopholes that see earnings on investment taxed at lower rates than wages.

But its unclear how much such a rule would increase revenues, as the administration will not give specific details on how it would be implemented, calling it one of the guiding principles of tax code reform.

Republicans roundly criticized the president's plans, with Paul Ryan, who chairs the House of Representatives budget committee, describing them as "class warfare."

"It is disappointing the president has nothing but a fresh slogan for the same job killing small-business tax hikes opposed by bipartisan majorities in Congress," said Michael Steel, spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner.

Last week Mr Boehner said any tax increases were "off the table".

The US economy has been growing only slowly while the unemployment rate remains stubbornly high, above 9%. Facing an election next year, Mr Obama has had a battle in Congress over how to reduce the ballooning deficit while the economy remains stagnant.

Ratings agency Standard and Poor's cut the US AAA rating in August after the country went to the brink of a default over an extended battle in Congress over raising the government's debt limit.

[podfish]

From: the BBC World News,19 September 2011

off topic - but a web safety issue: the link is to a potential link-hijacker (it's meant to be "www.bbc.co.uk" but it's "www.Bbbc.co.ok", which mirrors it, and is registered out of the Virgin Islands). If you use a browser plugin like WOT it'll help spot these for you. Also, check (usually at the lower-left of your browser) where a link will take you by mousing over it before clicking it.

[Iolchan]

Why Obama's Fix Won't Work

Conspicuously absent from Obama's proposed "fixes" to the Budget / deficit mess, without a doubt, will be any attempt to de-fund outlandish, un-Constitutional, Imperialist Wars on behalf of the Oil Cartels, Haliburton Corporation, and Brown & Root. Also outside the box of the Democratic proposals, intended entirely for purposes of electioneering in the 2012 Campaign for President - for which Obama is already on the march - will be any move to assert the power of Congress to issue debt-free money, in accordance with the U.S. Supreme Court Decision, in Julliard v. Greenman (110 U.S. 421, 448) in 1884, which ruled :

"Congress is authorized to establish a national currency, either in coins or in paper, and to make that currency lawful money for all purposes, as regards the national government or private individuals."

Neither will the Democrat who currently occupies the White House be likely to endorse or promote AMENDMENT XXVIII, which could fix the deep systemic economic mess we find ourselves in. Most of the professional politicians of the Democratic Party, like the politicians of the Republican Party, are committed to a policy of serving the Corporate masters of Wall Street, who underwrote, financed, and filled their campaign chests with the big bucks.

Thus, both parties are committed to perpetuating the present monetary system, whereby money is issued by a private Corporation - the Federal Reserve Bank, and returns enormous, phenomenal, quarterly dividends for the lucky few who just happened to inherit the right stock in the right banks - the money-market, Prime Banks, of Wall Street. Both wings of the duopoly work for the Rockefeller Center. Together, they function as a controlling dialectic over politics in America. Both establishment "schools" of Economics - Keynesian and Monetarist, work symbiotically, also, in a controlled dialectic over the field of Money.

Why We Need Amendment XVIII, Now

Amendment XVIII does several things that are timely:

Amendment XXVIII Re-Asserts the Constitutional principle that Congress – the Representatives of We, the People - should control, and be the ultimate Arbiter over the Creation of Money and Credit.

Amendment XXVIII Nationalizes the private ownership of the Federal Reserve Bank, and subsumes the creative functions of that institution into the Treasury Department, creating a Sub-Treasury “Common-Wealth Central Bank” - to be established and dedicated to the Interest of the People – not Wall Street.

Amendment XXVIII Authorizes Congress to recall the National Debt, and transforms, by Congressional Fiat, the fraudulent “National Debt,” held by prime banks in the form of U.S. Treasury Securities, into an actual National Blessing {Alexander Hamilton’s words} in the form of trillions of Dollars of “Common-Wealth” to be deposited in the New “Common-Wealth, Central Bank” by recalling, and transforming the U.S. Treasury Bonds, by Fiat, into a new, non-interest-bearing, dollar-denominated credit instrument: the “National Credit-Receipt.”

Amendment XXVIII cleans out the Augean Stables of the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve Bank, and opens the Books, Documents, and Records of those Institutions to the minutest Public Scrutiny. Amendment XXVIII also asserts “…there shall be no further issues of Treasury Securities, or Bonds.”

Amendment XXVIII opens, once again, the Treasury Mints to the free coinage of silver and gold. The new Commodity Money coins shall be stamped with their weight and fineness, not denominated in terms of “dollars.” This one reform will vastly enhance the money-supply of the nation, and also allow folks who prefer to deal in "hard money" an additional supply of Money to do business with. The current token "copper-sandwich coins" shall remain in circulation, to make small change for dollar-denominated business transactions with the new Fiat Dollars; but the "value" of the New, solid, Specie coins shall be allowed to fluctuate, according to the Market.

Borrowing a page from the Articles of Confederation, Amendment XXVIII grants, once again, to the State Governments the power to create Credit within their own jurisdictions. This will be of great help to the infrastructure and to Health, Education, and Welfare within the fifty states. And it will serve the Interest of the People; though it displease the banking elites and their minions.

Since State governments are empowered to grant charters to State Banks, which enable these Banks to create Credit, States also should be empowered to Create, with the stroke of a pen, sufficient Credit within their own jurisdictions to assist Human needs.

If Amendment XXVIII intended only to restore a lawful system of Constitutional money - with Fiat Treasury Bills replacing the interest-bearing debts known as "Federal Reserve Notes," then indeed, no Amendment would be necessary. The Constitution already provides Congress with the power to issue such notes as interest-free money. Also, the U.S. Supreme Court, in Julliard v. Greenman (110 U.S. 421, 448) in 1884 ruled that: “Congress is authorized to establish a national currency, either in coins or in paper, and to make that currency lawful money for all purposes, as regards the national government or private individuals.” {A broad interpretation of Article I, Section 8, clause 5, of the Constitution.}

An elegant solution, Amendment XVIII, also Nationalizes the National Debt; and transforms the Treasury Department into a Treasury of Common-wealth; and fills the coffers of this new institution with several trillions of "dollars" of Credit & establishes a new specie of credit-instrument, a dollar-denominated "National Credit Receipt" to be just as serviceable as “Dollars” on the international market.

Amendment XVIII makes a distinction between the U.S. Savings Bonds that were purchased by Ma and Pa bond investors and those U.S. Treasury Securities that were purchased by the Prime Banks at Bond Auctions held under the auspices of the Federal Open Market Committee, the Federal Reserve’s Window on Wall Street. Commercial Banks have always utilized the “multiplier” of the fractional reserve system to purchase U.S. Treasury Securities at cents on the dollar.

In recognition of this Fact - that such transactions are, and have always been, from the beginning, Fraudulent - AMENDMENT XVIII renders the outstanding “Debt” that is “owed” to the Prime Banks of this – and every other Nation - at a mere 7% [Seven per cent] of the face value of such Fraudulent, Banker-secured paper “Debt.”

This reduction of the Debt to a Sum that is payable in Credit, on the Books of the new Sub-Treasury Central Bank-of-Issue, the “Common-Wealth Central Bank” is, in Reality, exceedingly fair and Just, in recognition of the Fraud that has been committed by the Community of International bankers, in foisting the former system upon the unsuspecting Public.

Thus, AMENDMENT XVIII allows a large amount of Credit to be created on the books of the new Common-Wealth Central Bank - as compensation for that portion of the investment of the Banks in the National Debt, that might actually be deemed ‘legitimate.” This gives the Prime Banks some interest - but no stock - in the new Institution.

The aggregate effect of these Reforms is to establish an Institution that benefits All Americans - and not just the small elite who were fortunate to inherit the right stock in certain Wall Street Money Market Banks.

Amendment XXVIII dissolves the Federal Reserve Bank into the Treasury Department, and subsumes the creative, credit-creation function of the Federal Reserve into the new Sub-Treasury "Common-Wealth Central Bank." Henceforth, the Treasury shall not be compelled to issue interest-bearing Treasury Securities to "back" all of the paper "dollars" that the Federal Reserve currently issues. Instead, the Treasury shall issue non-interest-bearing Treasury notes, as Abraham Lincoln and John Fitzgerald Kennedy were able, for a short time, to do.

Significantly, Amendment XXVIII also grants the fifty States the power to create credit within their own sovereign jurisdictions, to meet their crushing deficit burdens, instead of having to float endless bond issues and borrow more "money" at interest from banks and investors of the bond-holding class. The Articles of Confederation, drafted by the revolutionary Continental Congress of 1777, allowed the States this power - and it should be restored to the several States, in order for there to be a healthy society in North America.

Thus, Clause 9 reads: "Furthermore, it amends and modifies Article II, Section 10, clause 1, to empower State Treasuries to create [a limited amount of] non-inflationary Credit, in the form of check-book money in order to meet the pressing needs of the States."

Sincerely,

Mark Walter Evans,
Hood Mountain,
California,
Summer, 2011

Iolchan wrote:

Amendment XXVIII & Apologia