Single Payer Now

[Iolchan]

Single Payer Now

Protect and Expand Medicare
Attend and Build Our
July 30 Medicare Meeting
3pm 255 9th St San Francisco

Dear Healthcare Activist,

I hope you can attend our wonderful Medicare Meeting on Saturday, July 30 in San Francisco. With Medicare under attack, this is a very important meeting. See leaflet below and attached.

We also need help building the meeting.
Please let us know if you can attend and if you can help build the meeting.
___ Yes, I plan to attend the 3pm meeting on July 30.
___ Yes, I can come at 2:20 to help set up.
___ Yes, I have forwarded this alert.
___ Yes, I can help call our phone tree. I will send you local names and a suggested script. Please let me know how many numbers you can call.

Thank you,
Don Bechler
Chair – Single Payer Now
www.singlepayernow.net
415-695-7891

Why We Support
Medicare for All
and SB 810,
The California Universal Healthcare Act

July 30 is the 46th Anniversary of Medicare's Passage into Law
Before Medicare: In 1964, only 51 percent of Americans 65 and older had health care coverage.
After Medicare: Today, virtually all Americans 65 and older have health care coverage.
Before Medicare: In 1964, nearly 30 percent of seniors lived below the poverty line.
After Medicare: Today, 7.5 percent of seniors live below the poverty line.
Today, Medicare provides comprehensive health care coverage to 47 million Americans, including: 39 million seniors; and 8 million people under age 65 with disabilities.

Come to a discussion on the importance of expanding Medicare to everyone.

Speakers:
Carl Finamore: former President (ret), Air Transport Employees, Local Lodge 1781, IAMAW & current delegate, SF Labor Council, AFL-CIO.
Barry Hermanson: Co-chair, California Green Party Coordinating Committee
Flora Luo and Jimmy Nguyen: Core Member and Youth Organizers with Chinese Progressive Association
Michael Lyon: Gray Panthers
Gordon Mar: Jobs with Justice
Rachel Schapira: Potrero Hill Democratic Club

Sat. 3:00pm July 30
255 Ninth St – SF
At ILWU Local 6 Union Hall
2 blocks south of Market between Howard and Folsom
Civic Center BART/MUNI

Sponsored by Single Payer Now. For more information call 415-695-7891 or visit www.singlepayernow.net

labor donated posted 7/10/11

Single Payer Now survives on the generosity of our supporters.
Please consider making a donation.

www.SinglePayerNow.net | 415-695-7891 | [email protected]

[Speak2Truth]

Who do you want making health care decisions for you? You and your doctor? Or government bureaucrats who see you as a statistic ( and who run the DMV and post office so very well...)

https://mnfmi.org/2009/06/25/single-...d-health-care/

[rossmen]

hey speaks your truth,
are you really interested in connected discussion? i have checked out many of your links, and found them to be consistently partisan bs (like this one). health care is a crisis, and if we really read each other, we would probably agree. i share your values(i guess), around healthcare, free market and individual responsibility. are you interested in honey? or do you want to stay with your vinegar?
mrs ross

Who do you want making health care decisions for you? You and your doctor? Or government bureaucrats who see you as a statistic ( and who run the DMV and post office so very well...)

https://mnfmi.org/2009/06/25/single-...d-health-care/

[Speak2Truth]

It is because I am concerned about keeping health care as good as possible that I don't want faceless bureaucrats running it the way they run so many other government organizations.

I have no illusions that health care can ever be made perfect. It will ALWAYS be a "crisis" to the sick or injured person. There is no possible way to provide perfect health care to all.

I think we could do a lot to reduce the cost of health care by cutting back the things that drive up the costs:

Lawyers sucking away at doctors' malpractice insurance even when the patient was not likely to survive

Americans subsidizing health care materials for other nations

Americans forced to care for tens of millions of people who legally must be removed from this country - because they are here illegally

Government bureaucracies adding unnecessary cost to health care manufacturers and implementers

I think we would both agree that every person wants better health care. We want it all. At someone else's expense. That's where I begin to object, most strongly.

Unfortunately, folks in Government pushing for Federally-controlled health care (which is illegal per our Constitution) have motive to help drive up the costs. They bully Arizona for trying to stop the invasion of more illegal health care dependents. They coddle the lawyers who suck away at our dollars. They come up with all sorts of fun new ways to "regulate" health care and manufacture of related products to drive up the cost in this country. They have motive. They're not on our side in this issue.

[rossmen]

health care is in crisis because the system is needlessly expensive and does not serve people or health workers. single payer would be far better than the employer insurance broke down system we have now, comparing us to other modern nations proves this.

we need a system that rewards good health choices and uses the market to move cost down and info and quality up. this is the reality in alternative health and teeth and eyecare. the sophisticated technology and surgery we experience at the dentist and opthamologist would cost ten times more if it was usually covered by medical insurance.

california already has medical tort reform. makes a big difference in the cost of practicing medicine. we (as in the gov) need to change the system so it is easy to get paid for providing medical help. insurance is a stupid way to pay for a basic human need.

It is because I am concerned about keeping health care as good as possible that I don't want faceless bureaucrats running it the way they run so many other government organizations.

I have no illusions that health care can ever be made perfect. It will ALWAYS be a "crisis" to the sick or injured person. There is no possible way to provide perfect health care to all.

I think we could do a lot to reduce the cost of health care by cutting back the things that drive up the costs:

Lawyers sucking away at doctors' malpractice insurance even when the patient was not likely to survive

Americans subsidizing health care materials for other nations

Americans forced to care for tens of millions of people who legally must be removed from this country - because they are here illegally

Government bureaucracies adding unnecessary cost to health care manufacturers and implementers

I think we would both agree that every person wants better health care. We want it all. At someone else's expense. That's where I begin to object, most strongly.

Unfortunately, folks in Government pushing for Federally-controlled health care (which is illegal per our Constitution) have motive to help drive up the costs. They bully Arizona for trying to stop the invasion of more illegal health care dependents. They coddle the lawyers who suck away at our dollars. They come up with all sorts of fun new ways to "regulate" health care and manufacture of related products to drive up the cost in this country. They have motive. They're not on our side in this issue.

[Speak2Truth]

health care is in crisis because the system is needlessly expensive and does not serve people or health workers. single payer would be far better than the employer insurance broke down system we have now, comparing us to other modern nations proves this.

Which? And, which have had bad experiences with it?

Have any US States tried this yet? Did it work out for them, without outside contribution from other States?

we need a system that rewards good health choices and uses the market to move cost down and info and quality up. this is the reality in alternative health and teeth and eyecare. the sophisticated technology and surgery we experience at the dentist and opthamologist would cost ten times more if it was usually covered by medical insurance.

Yes! Because there are so many people who get free care, including illegal aliens, the payers have to pay many times as much. The government-run system would not change that. It would still cost the payers a whole lot to hand out care to non-payers. Cost to payers goes up if non-payers demand more services, further impoverishing people who struggle to make a living and pay taxes.

Or, Government says that costs must come down so... payment to doctors and medical innovaters gets cut. Or medical services do.

I'm sure there are countering arguments about what COULD happen. The question is the intentions of the people who will end up running the system. They're the same ideological sorts who handed us Obamacare. Remember how Pelosi told us it is such a wonderful thing and that they'd parachute in or pole vault over us to get it implemented?

Pelosi’s District Gets 20% of Latest ObamaCare Waivers
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/2...macare-waiver/

SEIU Gets Three More Obamacare Waivers; Union's PAC Spent $27 Million Backing Obama's Election
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...ama-s-election

Over Half of All Obamacare Waivers Given to Union Members
Also: Their generous "cadillac" insurance plans were exempted from being taxed until 2018
https://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs...rs_561115.html

Obamacare Packs Crushing New Taxes
https://www.newsmax.com/GroverNorqui...1/14/id/382849

That's Fascism for ya.

[theindependenteye]

The most common argument against a government-operated single-payer medical system is that our health care will be controlled by "faceless bureaucrats." I've never understood this idea.

In the countries whose health care systems result in better health statistics for lower costs than ours, health care is in the hands of doctors, whose compensation is indeed controlled by faceless bureaucrats.

In the US, health care is in the hands of doctors, whose compensation is also controlled by faceless bureaucrats -- in the employ of insurance companies whose mandated function is to make as big a profit as possible. The profit motive makes them less faceless? Less bureaucratic? More humane?

Ah, but COMPETITION will induce them to be less faceless? Before becoming eligible for Medicare, I was paying much more for health insurance than for my mortgage, with a sizeable co-pay for every medical visit. Somehow the myth of the benevolent function of competition didn't apply to me. But then I guess nobody has a right to exist just because they want to.

Arguments about tort reform or the drain on our system from undocumented aliens (or fully-documented citizens) may be justified, but in the whole picture that's just diddling around the edge of the problem. Talk to someone who can't afford health insurance or is being bled dry by the insurance companies or has had to go to the mat to get approval for a treatment or can't hire employees because they can't afford even group premiums, and then tell me about freedom from faceless bureaucrats.

Cheers--
Conrad

[Speak2Truth]

Conrad - there's plenty of abuse and rationing in other nations with nationalized health care. Once you allow government to own your health, you allow them to dictate your lifestyle and anything that can affect your health. Dictate, as in use force to control you. That gets ugly.

They're already inflicting taxes on foods that bureaucrats deem "unhealthy" - in response to Michelle Obama freaking that her daughters are little "fatties" and insisting the rest of the nation must do as she say regarding diet. Oh, crap. And we're not talking about really unhealthy stuff like sugar substitutes and corn syrup - we're just talking about fries and a burger. Nutritious food and good, when eaten in moderation.

I prefer not to have government-rationed health care if I work hard at education, develop my job skills, make good money and try to afford better. However, I can't get an Obamacare waiver like so many buddies of the Democrat elite can. Could I get a waiver from being forced to buy into this other single-payer system?

I believe the real problem here is distrust in the intentions of the people trying to impose this system on us. This country's leftist politicians must be scrutinized on their own merits. Pelosi crowed about how great the Obamacare bill would be (but it had to be approved so we could find out what's in it) then went out of her way to secure exemptions for people her Party likes - because it's so crappy.

So, what are the intentions of the folks pushing this Single Payer plan on us? After that betrayal by Pelosi and her ilk, can these folks be trusted any further?

They ARE the party devoted to the "de-development" of the United States, in the words of Obama's science Czar, Cass Sunstein. They are the Party serving George Soros, who has crashed several other nations and is now working on doing the same to us. They are the Party that actually hates American prosperity, insisting we must give it all away to everyone else because we have it too good. They are doing all they can to drive this nation into unrecoverable debt by pushing one unaffordable program after another on us.

Do we trust them to allow us to become more prosperous and have cheaper goods and services? No. They've told us outright that's not their intention.

Hidden behind their nice-sounding schemes are not nice intentions. Just look how important it was to them to exempt their good friends from the Obamacare scam they are forcing on the rest of us. Not good. And they know it.

There is good reason to distrust those faceless bureaucrats who answer to The Party.

I sympathize with people who cannot afford health insurance. (I also recognize that nobody can afford all the health care they think they need in life - they will ALWAYS have less than "could" be given them). If all the wealthy people moaning about this, movie stars, politicians, Soros, MoveOn.org, would devote their money to the cause they believe in, they could do a lot of good.

It is ILLEGAL for our Federal Government to create a mandatory health care system.

It may be unwise to allow our State government Democrats to, considering how seriously they've already bankrupted California. How does a bankrupt state create yet another super-expensive government program?

[Speak2Truth]

I raised the question - how does a bankrupt State afford yet another super-expensive program? It doesn't.

As Karl Marx explained, a prospering capitalist system must be brought down in order to impose Socialist rule.

Does that help explain why the Democrat Party is doing all it can to bankrupt government, from the City to Federal level? Yeah, it does.

If somebody wanted our nation to crash and burn, the unsustainable increases in government spending and debt are a great way to get the job done. It MUST come crashing down. They are doing all they can to stop us from restoring fiscal sustainability.

Their intentions are revealed by their actions. Don't let them fool you.

[rossmen]

competition works very well for medical procedures not covered by government or private insurance. even advanced tech stuff using expensive equipment. the cost of lazer eye surgery has gone down 10 fold and quality is up. you go in, get an exam, and they tell you how much. you can even shop around comparing prices and outcomes.

i have catastrophic coverage so pay for all medical out of pocket. the insurance clerks up front look at me blankly when i ask how much? what if the government covered everything over 10k? then everyone would be asking how much. we would be taking better care of ourselves to. true preventative care happens by personal lifestyle choices.

when most health care receivers are empowered spenders health providers will be focused on value and service. health programs to help the poor would also cost society less because the whole system will be more efficient and affordable.

private health insurance is sold as competition by insurance companies. your experience demonstrates how this is not true. government provided health care is less expensive. by all working together in a responsive system where we are empowered and rewarded for good health choices we can do even better.

The most common argument against a government-operated single-payer medical system is that our health care will be controlled by "faceless bureaucrats." I've never understood this idea.

In the countries whose health care systems result in better health statistics for lower costs than ours, health care is in the hands of doctors, whose compensation is indeed controlled by faceless bureaucrats.

In the US, health care is in the hands of doctors, whose compensation is also controlled by faceless bureaucrats -- in the employ of insurance companies whose mandated function is to make as big a profit as possible. The profit motive makes them less faceless? Less bureaucratic? More humane?

Ah, but COMPETITION will induce them to be less faceless? Before becoming eligible for Medicare, I was paying much more for health insurance than for my mortgage, with a sizeable co-pay for every medical visit. Somehow the myth of the benevolent function of competition didn't apply to me. But then I guess nobody has a right to exist just because they want to.

Arguments about tort reform or the drain on our system from undocumented aliens (or fully-documented citizens) may be justified, but in the whole picture that's just diddling around the edge of the problem. Talk to someone who can't afford health insurance or is being bled dry by the insurance companies or has had to go to the mat to get approval for a treatment or can't hire employees because they can't afford even group premiums, and then tell me about freedom from faceless bureaucrats.

Cheers--
Conrad

[Dixon]

Who do you want making health care decisions for you? You and your doctor? Or government bureaucrats who see you as a statistic...

You forgot to mention the money-grubbing suits who run the HMOs, who also see us as statistics and pay their doctors to maximize their corporate profits by withholding needed tests and procedures.

[Speak2Truth]

what if the government covered everything over 10k? then everyone would be asking how much. we would be taking better care of ourselves to. true preventative care happens by personal lifestyle choices.

I think you make a very significant point.

If they don't have to pay for their health care, they don't take care of themselves. They just want someone else to pay the costs of fixing whatever they do to themselves.

I've seen this for myself. Why should the fellow take care of his teeth when he can have someone else pay for his dental work? Why should he eat right and exercise when he can have someone else pay for the corrective medical procedures resulting from his lifestyle choice? Why should he bother going to work when he can get someone else to pay his living expenses?

I'm the guy who spends the extra on good quality food, the health club, take good care of myself... and I object to being ROBBED to pay for the schmuck who chooses to ruin himself.

[Speak2Truth]

You forgot to mention the money-grubbing suits who run the HMOs, who also see us as statistics and pay their doctors to maximize their corporate profits by withholding needed tests and procedures.

A good point. I also forgot to mention the doctors who will order all kinds of extra, unnecessary tests and procedures because the hospital is being bankrupted by illegal aliens and a customer just happens to come in with extensive health care insurance. It's a way of bringing desperately needed revenue into the hospital.

Whatta mess, huh?

Step 1: Obey the Constitution and "repel invasion". That would solve a myriad of problems.

[theindependenteye]

>>>Conrad -

I'm not sure why this was directed to me. My post was about single-payer insurance. This post was largely about how much he loathes the Democrats who scotched it, and the US government to boot. No worries: after the next election we're very likely to go right back to the system we've had, minus most of Medicare: the best health care in the world for the Saudi princes who can afford it.

-Conrad

[rossmen]

speaks no truth you clearly have little understanding of what you are writing about. the way us pays for health care is a sickly burden on the economy. most other modern nations do a better job, ie less money and more health. obama's plan might be a bandaid but it has been better than nothing at all. i'm glad to read you eat quality food, i worry the fumes from keeping your head up your idealogical ass have overcome you.

I raised the question - how does a bankrupt State afford yet another super-expensive program? It doesn't.

As Karl Marx explained, a prospering capitalist system must be brought down in order to impose Socialist rule.

Does that help explain why the Democrat Party is doing all it can to bankrupt government, from the City to Federal level? Yeah, it does.

If somebody wanted our nation to crash and burn, the unsustainable increases in government spending and debt are a great way to get the job done. It MUST come crashing down. They are doing all they can to stop us from restoring fiscal sustainability.

Their intentions are revealed by their actions. Don't let them fool you.

[rossmen]

barry has asked me to not attack personally. i can understand how this pithy post could be taken this way.

s2t i do not think you literally have your head up your ass. this post is an expression of my frustration in trying to connect with you. to have a meaningful discussion about what is really important to you. the idealogical content of your posts and links obscures your meaning for me. i have expressed this frustration several times in different ways. asking if you are an astroturd, pointing out where you come to agreement about context and meaning and then go back to idealogical purity, sharing deeply personal meaning for me...

still trying to get why you are posting here. this is why i have been replying to your posts. i'm curious, enjoy online community, a little worried the process.
mrs ross

speaks no truth you clearly have little understanding of what you are writing about. the way us pays for health care is a sickly burden on the economy. most other modern nations do a better job, ie less money and more health. obama's plan might be a bandaid but it has been better than nothing at all. i'm glad to read you eat quality food, i worry the fumes from keeping your head up your idealogical ass have overcome you.

[Speak2Truth]

most other modern nations do a better job, ie less money and more health.

I believe we can both find plenty of information both for and against that claim. I've read plenty of reports of long (even deadly) waits for nationalized health care, shortages, floods of immigrants bankrupting the system (a real threat in the USA).

The real crime of it is that it robs the person who takes good care of themselves to provide funds for the ever increasing demands of those who do not - and expect someone else to pay for their poor lifestyle choices.

I really am on the fence about this. I do believe in some degree of catastrophic injury coverage. However, I would not free the individual from the costs of their own life choices. That would be a Wrongdoing against those who try to do the right thing.

[Speak2Truth]

barry has asked me to not attack personally.

Good. His forum guidelines are clear on the intention of his forum and those guidelines sum up pretty well why I come here to seek views different from mine, to see if there is compelling evidence that should change my views, to engage in discussion with others, to speak only what I genuinely believe to be True based on what information I have seen. That is the core of being a liberal intellectual - pursuit of information to help form a reasonable worldview.

I try not to argue mere viewpoints. Viewpoints can be wrong. That's why I ask people who disagree with me to present evidence that might sway me to agree with their particular viewpoints. A valid viewpoint is one supported by the evidence.

Some areas of disagreement are beyond evidential support. Still fun to discuss, though.

Some of the topics in here, like the Neanderthal discussion, are simply fascinating. I hope you don't mind that I enjoyed discussing the Neanderthals.

[zenekar]

Good. His forum guidelines are clear on the intention of his forum and those guidelines sum up pretty well why I come here to seek views different from mine, to see if there is compelling evidence that should change my views, to engage in discussion with others, to speak only what I genuinely believe to be True based on what information I have seen. That is the core of being a liberal intellectual - pursuit of information to help form a reasonable worldview.

I try not to argue mere viewpoints. Viewpoints can be wrong. That's why I ask people who disagree with me to present evidence that might sway me to agree with their particular viewpoints. A valid viewpoint is one supported by the evidence.

Some areas of disagreement are beyond evidential support. Still fun to discuss, though.

Some of the topics in here, like the Neanderthal discussion, are simply fascinating. I hope you don't mind that I enjoyed discussing the Neanderthals.

I've read some of your posts -- too many to have time for and I don't have time or inclination to challenge your "liberal intellectual(?)" reactionary and paranoid world view. But I have to ask, do you honestly believe that everyone in the US has the same opportunity to enjoy the so-called "middle class" life? Do you deny that institutionalized racism exists in the US? Do you believe that every child has access to good schools K-12, and affordable higher education?

Do you really want evidence to help you understand what life is like for those who don't share your white male privileged "lifestyle?" If you are open, then please settle down a bit, don't post so much here, and read the book, Savage Inequalities -- Children in America's Schools by Jonathan Kozol, long-time educator who writes from direct experience.

I know this thread is about health care and I would like for you to realize that one child out of five live under the poverty level. It is not their fault, and in most cases their parents are not to blame. Please don't go on about a few who have gone from "rags to riches."

In this so-called "Christian" country where are the moral values that were attributed to Christ?

"There is enough for everyone's need, but not for everyone's greed" - Mohandas Gandhi

[rossmen]

you attack people personally all the time. your enemy images include democrats, obama, communists, muslims who want their religious law to be part of the civil code (something you claim is true for us) ect. as you and i have explored in replying to each other, we share some values which we believe could guide things like reforming the health care system.

my pointed critique of your discussion process, often illustrated by colorful metaphor, is not intended as anything but trying to get you to get how i experience engaging with you. so far i have not seen you reply to this part of my posts directly. this is a deeper level of engagement than idealogical bantering. i am willing to try this with you because i worry the volume and tone of your posts will make wacconet less inviting for all.

Good. His forum guidelines are clear on the intention of his forum and those guidelines sum up pretty well why I come here to seek views different from mine, to see if there is compelling evidence that should change my views, to engage in discussion with others, to speak only what I genuinely believe to be True based on what information I have seen. That is the core of being a liberal intellectual - pursuit of information to help form a reasonable worldview.

I try not to argue mere viewpoints. Viewpoints can be wrong. That's why I ask people who disagree with me to present evidence that might sway me to agree with their particular viewpoints. A valid viewpoint is one supported by the evidence.

Some areas of disagreement are beyond evidential support. Still fun to discuss, though.

Some of the topics in here, like the Neanderthal discussion, are simply fascinating. I hope you don't mind that I enjoyed discussing the Neanderthals.

[Speak2Truth]

But I have to ask, do you honestly believe that everyone in the US has the same opportunity to enjoy the so-called "middle class" life?

Of course not. In NO human society does everyone enjoy the same opportunities. It would be insane to expect that.

In this country, everyone has the same opportunity to be unimpeded by others in their PURSUIT of whatever lifestyle they want. That's sensible.

Do you deny that institutionalized racism exists in the US?

Of course not. Affirmative Action anyone? NAACP? Etc.

Do you believe that every child has access to good schools K-12, and affordable higher education?

I wonder what you define as a "good school". The expense and luxury of the structure or the quality of teaching? I'm amazed at how "bad" the "good schools" of today really are. To get a quality education, featuring breadth and depth of useful knowledge as well as reasoning ability, one might have to wind the clock back.

Don't we complain about the "dumbing down" of students by the public education system? Yes, we do.

In this so-called "Christian" country where are the moral values that were attributed to Christ?

If you spend time among Christians, you'll find out.

The worst thing that can be done to our people is to convince them that "the government will take care of you" so "you don't have to take care of one another". It destroys notions of charity, personal caring, volunteering to help others.

To make matters worse, those who would contribute to help others have their assets seized by Government to pay a bunch of bureaucrats - then dole the paltry remainder out to win votes. That directly de-funds the Christian values of our nation.

I spend time among Christians (real ones) and can say that Christian moral values are strong.

[rossmen]

the statistics of what different nations spend on healthcare per capita and health statistics are clear. and the details are interesting too. for example brits spend half as much as us and are in better health. their better health probably has most to do with walking more, ie less car centric society. they eat a similar diet.

i believe that government provided single payer catastrophic care is the way to go. here is what convinced me;
www.theatlantic.com/david-goldhill/

I believe we can both find plenty of information both for and against that claim. I've read plenty of reports of long (even deadly) waits for nationalized health care, shortages, floods of immigrants bankrupting the system (a real threat in the USA).

The real crime of it is that it robs the person who takes good care of themselves to provide funds for the ever increasing demands of those who do not - and expect someone else to pay for their poor lifestyle choices.

I really am on the fence about this. I do believe in some degree of catastrophic injury coverage. However, I would not free the individual from the costs of their own life choices. That would be a Wrongdoing against those who try to do the right thing.

[zenekar]

the statistics of what different nations spend on healthcare per capita and health statistics are clear. and the details are interesting too. for example brits spend half as much as us and are in better health. their better health probably has most to do with walking more, ie less car centric society. they eat a similar diet.

i believe that government provided single payer catastophic care is the way to go. here is what convinced me;
www.theatlantic.com/david-goldhill/

Interview with an Insurance Executive exposing the rip-off insurance industry.
https://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html
With almost 20 years inside the health insurance industry, Wendell Potter saw for-profit insurers hijack our health care system and put profits before patients. Now, he speaks with Bill Moyers about how those companies are standing in the way of health care reform.

[zenekar]

Of course not. In NO human society does everyone enjoy the same opportunities. It would be insane to expect that.

[In this country, everyone has the same opportunity to be unimpeded by others in their PURSUIT of whatever lifestyle they want. That's sensible.

It's insane to expect that people should have equal opportunity? So, a company that rewards the CEO with millions$$ and pays employees minimum wage in sweatshop conditions, is not impeding the choices of the person who must struggle to survive while the company rakes in the profits? That's sensible? No, that's selfishness and greed. Very un-Christianlike.


Of course not. Affirmative Action anyone? NAACP? Etc.

By your answer you reveal that you don't have an understanding of institutionalized racism in the US. The NAACP and Affirmative Action are responses to the racism and white privilege in this society.


I wonder what you define as a "good school". The expense and luxury of the structure or the quality of teaching? I'm amazed at how "bad" the "good schools" of today really are. To get a quality education, featuring breadth and depth of useful knowledge as well as reasoning ability, one might have to wind the clock back.

Don't we complain about the "dumbing down" of students by the public education system? Yes, we do.

A good school is one that provides caring instructors and a sound environment for the development of a child. A civilized society needs to provide education opportunity for all regardless of economic strata. The public school system is broken from constant cuts in education.


If you spend time among Christians, you'll find out.

The worst thing that can be done to our people is to convince them that "the government will take care of you" so "you don't have to take care of one another". It destroys notions of charity, personal caring, volunteering to help others.

What is needed is a caring, not-for-profit health care system for all, not charity.


To make matters worse, those who would contribute to help others have their assets seized by Government to pay a bunch of bureaucrats - then dole the paltry remainder out to win votes. That directly de-funds the Christian values of our nation.

Assets seized for helping others? de-funding Christian values? Huh? Never mind, please don't try to explain.


I spend time among Christians (real ones) and can say that Christian moral values are strong.

I also spend time with decent people who are Christian, and Moslems, Jews, Pagans and folks with various other beliefs, and non-believers of fairytales. But the capitalist system is not based on the values of Christ or any sane moral values.

[zenekar]

I wasn't sure how to respond line for line after the previous message had responded to me line for line. The red text is my response to S2T.

[Iolchan]

Let's Hear it for Socialized Medicine

What we need is simple. It used to be called "Socialized Medicine." Meaning, a government- provided, free, health-care system that is available for Everyone. If some of us want to - or can afford to - have personal physicians, and private health insurance, by all means, that should be an option; of course.

But in order to get "Socialized Medicine," at this junction in history, I suggest that we need to set before us, as a primary and immediate goal, the Nationalization of Credit, and, also, the Dispossession of the Franchise to create Credit; that has been farmed out to the Federal Reserve Bank, ever since 1914. This must be the first order on the Agenda if there is to be any viable Progressive Movement forward, at all.

That way, with a Common-Wealth Central Bank having replaced the auld, rapscallion, oligarchically-inclined Federal Reserve Bank; and with the parasites who used to be known as the "Bond-holding Class," having been cut out of the Federal gravy-train, there will be plenty of Credit and "Money" for worthy and useful social projects like Socialized Medicine, and free Higher Education, to benefit the Masses.

Sincerely,

Mark Walter Evans
www.paleoprogressives.org