DUI and DWB (Driving While Brown)

[zenekar]

[This thread was split of from DUI checkpoint tonight in Santa Rosa thread. - Barry]

Miles -

I agree completely with your concern about the use of checkpoints to impound the cars of sober drivers without licenses!

But why not post your note in Spanish, on laundromat walls, and send a text to KBBF, KXTS, KRRS and KTOB - the Spanish language radio stations? They can reach the population that is being unfairly discriminated against. WACCOBB just seemed a counter intuitive place to share this information!

And yes, it is 'public' information.

I've wondered why the Sonoma County Human Rights Commission doesn't take a stand on this? Even with their limited authority they have the capacity to keep it in front of the administrators of public safety agencies and their elected bosses. And what if the Grand Jury could look at this question!

P.S. What about my comment led you to believe I wouldn't see it your way?

P.P.S. It is only a free county if you have money.

__

The Committee for Immigrant Rights, Sonoma County (CIRSC) has, for several years, been actively working on the issue of car impounds of drivers who cannot obtain a license but must drive to work. The So.Co. Commission on Human Rights has drafted a recommendation for the So.Co. Board of Supervisors to discuss this issue as well as the issue of Family Unity. So far this hasn't been put on the Board's agenda for discussion.

In the meantime, CIRSC is in the streets during checkpoints warning Spanish language drivers. When English speakers ask what does the sign mean, we say: if you can't read the sign go through the checkpoint. This is not done to protect drunk drivers but to deal with a situation that is unfair to those who's work benefits the community but the law doesn't allow them to have a drivers license.

[Sunshinehartfulofluv]

That the community could get more creative in alternative forms of transportation. This could be used as a potential marker in the quest to minimize pollution, traffic is a problem in Sonoma County if you havent noticed! I think that unliscenced drivers should NOT be behind the wheel, they are most likely not insured, if 'you' are so interested in getting these workers to thier jobs on time, then perhaps 'you' should carpool them.

I know this is slightly off the subject, but myself, I would love a job that I can work seasonally in a garden, or harvesting fruit, even part-time, and there are no jobs available. In my hard time, I have applied to the State of California for food stamp benifits, because I could not find work, and I was denied on the basis that I applied under the "seasonal migrant worker" status(because I am a self-employed musician/artist that migrates seasonally) , but was told since I am not hispanic, and I had to fight and almost be dishonest just to get a little help.

When I did not have a licsence, I did not drive. I "adapted" to alternate forms of transportation, the bus or train, BICYCLES!!!! even hitchhiking, and I had some very wonderful experiences doing such. Not to mention that there are way too many cars on the road now, I was appalled at the amount of traffic the last time I came home to Sonoma County.

I just realized...Having a drivers licsense means that one has studied, taken AND PASSED the driving knowledge requirements in order to drive safely behind the wheel. How many of you feel comfortable knowing that there are unliscenced drivers out there, who may not know the "rules of the road", may cause an accident that could harm you or one of your loved ones, or damage property that WILL not be covered by thier insurance (because they haven't got any)

Perhaps someone around town could opperate a carpool/taxi service, offering this service to folks...

I have been trying to find more information on this "CIRCS" program, because I am descended from immigrants, (I am white, though, and does anyone consider whites to be immigrants?) and there are those who migrate even within the states, and they are discriminated against, called "homeless" and vagrants, "transients" and while these terms may be accurate in some ways, they are all derogitory. I grew up in Sebastopol, there is no other place I hold as dear to me in Northern California, but I feel excluded from the community, because I choose to travel and live in a converted school bus (rv) and go to other places, mostly for my work, and since the campground closed up, and living in an rv on the county streets is considered "illegal camping" I don't like feeling that since I have chosen an alternative form of lifestyle, to be discriminated against by the country I love so much...

I thank the local law enforcment for helping to keep the streets safe for all of us, and I hope the next time you come across me and my bus, just enjoying the place and getting my artistry work done, that you will at least let me sleep in peace.

[Barry]

Of course there is one "violation" that white folks don't have to worry about, which is DWB (driving while brown).

I

[zenekar]

I

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This cartoon would be funny if the situation weren't so tragic.

[zenekar]

That the community could get more creative in alternative forms of transportation. This could be used as a potential marker in the quest to minimize pollution, traffic is a problem in Sonoma County if you havent noticed! I think that unliscenced drivers should NOT be behind the wheel, they are most likely not insured, if 'you' are so interested in getting these workers to thier jobs on time, then perhaps 'you' should carpool them.

I know this is slightly off the subject, but myself, I would love a job that I can work seasonally in a garden, or harvesting fruit, even part-time, and there are no jobs available. In my hard time, I have applied to the State of California for food stamp benifits, because I could not find work, and I was denied on the basis that I applied under the "seasonal migrant worker" status(because I am a self-employed musician/artist that migrates seasonally) , but was told since I am not hispanic, and I had to fight and almost be dishonest just to get a little help.

When I did not have a licsence, I did not drive. I "adapted" to alternate forms of transportation, the bus or train, BICYCLES!!!! even hitchhiking, and I had some very wonderful experiences doing such. Not to mention that there are way too many cars on the road now, I was appalled at the amount of traffic the last time I came home to Sonoma County.

I just realized...Having a drivers licsense means that one has studied, taken AND PASSED the driving knowledge requirements in order to drive safely behind the wheel. How many of you feel comfortable knowing that there are unliscenced drivers out there, who may not know the "rules of the road", may cause an accident that could harm you or one of your loved ones, or damage property that WILL not be covered by thier insurance (because they haven't got any)

Perhaps someone around town could opperate a carpool/taxi service, offering this service to folks...

I have been trying to find more information on this "CIRCS" program, because I am descended from immigrants, (I am white, though, and does anyone consider whites to be immigrants?) and there are those who migrate even within the states, and they are discriminated against, called "homeless" and vagrants, "transients" and while these terms may be accurate in some ways, they are all derogitory. I grew up in Sebastopol, there is no other place I hold as dear to me in Northern California, but I feel excluded from the community, because I choose to travel and live in a converted school bus (rv) and go to other places, mostly for my work, and since the campground closed up, and living in an rv on the county streets is considered "illegal camping" I don't like feeling that since I have chosen an alternative form of lifestyle, to be discriminated against by the country I love so much...

I thank the local law enforcment for helping to keep the streets safe for all of us, and I hope the next time you come across me and my bus, just enjoying the place and getting my artistry work done, that you will at least let me sleep in peace.

____

Sunshine, I can appreciate what you write here but your situation is quite different from those immigrants who are forced to move from their homeland because US "Free Trade" treaties have displaced them from their farms or they can't earn a living wage in the offshore US corporate sweat shops. Yes there are immigrants from other areas besides south of the US border but there is a long history of US farms and businesses hiring (exploiting) Latino labor (which we all benefit from).

Just because a person can't obtain a drivers license does not mean they cannot drive. They are responsible drivers as most and likely more vigilant of traffic laws so they won't be stopped. Also, it's possible to have a licensed owner of the car being driven, to have the car insured. CIRSC works on immigrant rights issues for recent immigrants and their families. If you want justice for all, help change unjust laws -- that includes US foreign policy that creates migration of families in search of a way to survive.

[someguy]

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US farms and businesses hiring (exploiting) Latino labor (which we all benefit from).

If you are benefiting from exploited Latino labor, you should try changing your shopping habits rather than spending your time and energy on reforming policies. Surely, we all don't need to partake in exploitation of anyone, and gladly, not all of us do. Shopping locally is a big part of breaking away from the corporate stranglehold on our lives, while also diminishing profit for those same people who are content with being big turd sandwiches by exploiting people.

[zenekar]

If you are benefiting from exploited Latino labor, you should try changing your shopping habits rather than spending your time and energy on reforming policies. Surely, we all don't need to partake in exploitation of anyone, and gladly, not all of us do. Shopping locally is a big part of breaking away from the corporate stranglehold on our lives, while also diminishing profit for those same people who are content with being big turd sandwiches by exploiting people.

____

Good suggestions about supporting local businesses but it's now quite as simple as you might like to imagine. We all benefit from the labor of immigrants. Who planted and harvested the food on your table? Do you drink wine? Do you eat at at restaurants (who is the cook, who's bussing tables, washing the dishes?) etc.

[someguy]

____

Good suggestions about supporting local businesses but it's now quite as simple as you might like to imagine. We all benefit from the labor of immigrants. Who planted and harvested the food on your table? Do you drink wine? Do you eat at at restaurants (who is the cook, who's bussing tables, washing the dishes?) etc.

I buy probably 85% of my food directly from farmers and the rest mostly from local food suppliers. I pretty much know where I spend my money, who gets it, and what they do with it. Except of course when I pay taxes. Then it goes to pay for covert military operations, corporate bailouts, and unjust law enforcement.... Lame. If we just think a little when we shop/eat we can basically avoid supporting the machine. It's fairly easy.

[zenekar]

I buy probably 85% of my food directly from farmers and the rest mostly from local food suppliers. I pretty much know where I spend my money, who gets it, and what they do with it. Except of course when I pay taxes. Then it goes to pay for covert military operations, corporate bailouts, and unjust law enforcement.... Lame. If we just think a little when we shop/eat we can basically avoid supporting the machine. It's fairly easy.

____

Typo in my previous post - I meant write "not quite as simple... Do the farmers you buy from do all the work on their farms? and the food from suppliers? What may seem fairly simple and easy to you may not be that easy for others. Many families survive with tight budgets and shop where they can.

[zenekar]

someguy wrote:
...try changing your shopping habits rather than spending your time and energy on reforming policies.
___

I didn't reply to this before -- Do you consider it not necessary to change policies that do harm?

[someguy]

____

Typo in my previous post - I meant write "not quite as simple... Do the farmers you buy from do all the work on their farms? and the food from suppliers? What may seem fairly simple and easy to you may not be that easy for others. Many families survive with tight budgets and shop where they can.

It doesn't matter if the farmer I buy directly from does all the work him/herself, what matters is that he/she doesn't exploit illegal immigrants or anyone else for that matter. Same with the local food suppliers I buy from. Same with practically everything I spend my money on. And BTW I am not rich by any means, lowest tax bracket here, and I can afford to do this. It is all about priorities.

[someguy]

someguy wrote:
...try changing your shopping habits rather than spending your time and energy on reforming policies.
___

I didn't reply to this before -- Do you consider it not necessary to change policies that do harm?

I personally think that it is easier and more effective to create change through the almighty dollar rather than betting on sleazy politicians to do something that actually benefits us. The vast majority of our political system is bought and paid for by big business, making it ultimately impossible to change policies in a way that benefit the people. So why not just make it sort of impossible for the big business folk to keep buying off politicians? Most Americans, after all, are giving these big business jerks our money voluntarily while simultaneously complaining about their impact on our political system. I find this approach much more direct, with an actual chance of creating change, rather than pleading for change from a political system that will promise it all day long, and never ever deliver.

[zenekar]

It doesn't matter if the farmer I buy directly from does all the work him/herself, what matters is that he/she doesn't exploit illegal immigrants or anyone else for that matter. Same with the local food suppliers I buy from. Same with practically everything I spend my money on. And BTW I am not rich by any means, lowest tax bracket here, and I can afford to do this. It is all about priorities.

___

Do you know if the persons doing the work on the farms are receiving a living wage? It's good that you have the privilege to make those choices and have access to the sources. Perhaps you'd like to share your sources for food.

[wendymd4]

Yes certainly share who your food sources are! A good way to educate people of their options.

___

Do you know if the persons doing the work on the farms are receiving a living wage? It's good that you have the privilege to make those choices and have access to the sources. Perhaps you'd like to share your sources for food.

[someguy]

Yes certainly share who your food sources are! A good way to educate people of their options.

For all things poultry, eggs, whole lambs, and whole pigs I choose Felton Acres.

For Duck eggs, and honey I go to Salmon Creek Ranch, who can be found at the Farmers Market Saturdays in Santa Rosa.

For Grass fed beef, I buy from John Ford, who also can be found at the SRFM. Good stuff from Willits!!! Occasionally I buy some Grass fed beef from Hicks Valley. They can be found at Oliver's Market.

I buy my raw milk from Organic Pastures and Claravale. And we get our Heavy whipping cream, butter and yogurt from Straus.

We also get a box of veggies from Laguna Farm CSA, and I grow my own in my backyard.

Plus we go to a lot of Farmers Markets.

We don't really eat grains very often but the Grindstone Bakery around here is a great source! We are lucky to be able to have access to that stuff!

Hope this helps.

[zenekar]

For all things poultry, eggs, whole lambs, and whole pigs I choose Felton Acres.

For Duck eggs, and honey I go to Salmon Creek Ranch, who can be found at the Farmers Market Saturdays in Santa Rosa.

For Grass fed beef, I buy from John Ford, who also can be found at the SRFM. Good stuff from Willits!!! Occasionally I buy some Grass fed beef from Hicks Valley. They can be found at Oliver's Market.

I buy my raw milk from Organic Pastures and Claravale. And we get our Heavy whipping cream, butter and yogurt from Straus.

We also get a box of veggies from Laguna Farm CSA, and I grow my own in my backyard.

Plus we go to a lot of Farmers Markets.

We don't really eat grains very often but the Grindstone Bakery around here is a great source! We are lucky to be able to have access to that stuff!

Hope this helps.

_______

Thanks for the resources. Yes, you are lucky to be able to have access to all that and can choose those options. It takes some diving around, right? Those who can't have a drivers license might not want to risk driving as much. And food is cheaper at Food Max and Costco. So, those are the options for some folks who may be working at some of the places you frequent. Do I need to go into further detail why some people must drive without a license?

[Dixon]

I personally think that it is easier and more effective to create change through the almighty dollar rather than betting on sleazy politicians to do something that actually benefits us.

You make some very good points and I respect your buying choices, but let's not set up a false dichotomy here; changing things through our buying habits and changing things through policy change are not mutually exclusive. We can do both.

[Sabrina]

Thank you Dixon, I was JUST going to say that. We can work through both ways. We must try to change policies and use the power of our dollars to go where we feel it's fit. I too am a low income person who tries to eat as organic and naturally as possible, always w/ fair wages / trade in mind. But the nature of my life situation would never allow me the time to do all that driving around to different farms, although I LOVE the idea if it were more accessible to me, i.e. time, money, gas...etc.

[someguy]

You make some very good points and I respect your buying choices, but let's not set up a false dichotomy here; changing things through our buying habits and changing things through policy change are not mutually exclusive. We can do both.

Oh of course! My personal opinion though is that changing things through our buying habits is potentially more effective.

[someguy]

But the nature of my life situation would never allow me the time to do all that driving around to different farms, although I LOVE the idea if it were more accessible to me, i.e. time, money, gas...etc.

I just wanted to say that my style of food shopping may even be less time consuming and gas consuming. When I buy a whole pig or three whole sheep from Felton Acres, that is one stop shopping for many many pounds of meat that will last my family months! When I go to the farmers market, I have dozens of vendors available to me. This provides a good opportunity to get a lot of variety of food in one place. Then a trip or two to Olivers or the Community Market every now and then doesn't seem like that much driving to do all in all. I feel that this type of buying might save time and gas money overall. But maybe not.

[Imagery]

____

Sunshine, I can appreciate what you write here but your situation is quite different from those immigrants who are forced to move from their homeland because US "Free Trade" treaties have displaced them from their farms or they can't earn a living wage in the offshore US corporate sweat shops. Yes there are immigrants from other areas besides south of the US border but there is a long history of US farms and businesses hiring (exploiting) Latino labor (which we all benefit from).

I'm just curious -
How are these immigrants "forced" to move from their homeland? You base your claim on the NAFTA agreement? Take a look around you local supermarket, especially taking note of the produce boxes. They have the country of origin listed on them. See where the fruits and vegetables come from? South America, Mexico, Central America...
What really keeps immigrants coming (and keeps them here) is all of the social programs that hand them everything they want, just for the asking. It's akin to a poor mans' "banker bailout"...free medical care, free food stamps, free education (or the illusion of one), and having society cater to them here.

["Mad" Miles]

Imagery, you're passing on falsehoods about immigrants coming here for a "free ride" at our expense. It's late, there are plenty of reliable resources that disprove your claims, claims you're regurgitating from xenophobic pressure groups. Here's a start:

https://www.nclr.org/index.php/publi...united_states/

There's an extensive archive here on waccobb that covers this debate. https://www.waccobb.net/forums/searc...earchid=205762

Plenty of back and forth to choose from. Your claims, are untenable, but seem to be well established in the popular view. Just like a lot of other falsehoods.

[Imagery]

Imagery, you're passing on falsehoods about immigrants coming here for a "free ride" at our expense. It's late, there are plenty of reliable resources that disprove your claims, claims you're regurgitating from xenophobic pressure groups. Here's a start:

https://www.nclr.org/index.php/publi...united_states/

Plenty of back and forth to choose from. Your claims, are untenable, but seem to be well established in the popular view. Just like a lot of other falsehoods.

La Raza, a very much biased advocate, is probably NOT the best source for unbiased information.

Spend a day observing people at the welfare office. Go by your local hospital emergency waiting rooms. Look at the reality as it is, not some document written by people who aren't in fact doing these things, or twist numbers until they come out looking good for their side. Notice that La Raza uses Texas as their "example" state, and not California. Any particular reason?

["Mad" Miles]

La Raza documents every one of their claims to fact with footnoted citations from independent sources. I anticipated your response. Typical. Who is going to make an argument defending undocumented workers other than their advocates?

And I note you do not respond to the massive amount of discussion already held here, as provided to your fingertips by my simple search results on this site. I'm not interested in a back and forth refutation contest with you.

As to who shows up in offices that provide services to poor people, well, Duh...!? The "Five Questions About Immigration" specifically addresses the issue of pay and poverty for immigrants in our economy.

Keep ably displaying your ignorance and blinkered thinking on this and other matters, it's what you're good at. Don't you have a mob to incite and send in some poor person or persons direction? Your modus operandi has been well established here, by you, repeatedly.

[Imagery]

Don't you have a mob to incite and send in some poor person or persons direction? Your modus operandi has been well established here, by you, repeatedly.

No, I hear that would lead to people seizing land and selling it for fractions of pennies on the dollar in back-room deals to benefit the wealthy.
I know you don't care enough to do so, but perhaps you should take a look at my last ten or fifteen posts.

[Dixon]

Imagery, you're passing on falsehoods about immigrants coming here for a "free ride" at our expense. It's late, there are plenty of reliable resources that disprove your claims, claims you're regurgitating from xenophobic pressure groups. Here's a start:
https://www.nclr.org/index.php/publi...united_states/
There's an extensive archive here on waccobb that covers this debate. https://www.waccobb.net/forums/searc...earchid=205762

Hey Miles, neither of these links worked for me. The first one took me to the NCLR site, where I had to register just to download the document (!), then it downloaded a blank page. The second one gave me a "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms" message.

The failure of the first link may somehow be my computer's fault, as it sounds like that link worked for Imagery.

I'm sure you're familiar with my position on immigration from previous posts: The problem is that the Indians didn't have a tight enough immigration policy in 1492. They should have killed that notorious murderer, rapist, torturer, slaver, invader, Columbus and his brutal men on first sight, in self-defense--but how could they have known then that he was the point man for the biggest genocide of all time? Of course, stealing something, even a continent, doesn't really make it yours (unless you're using the logic of sociopaths), so this entity known as the U.S.A. doesn't really own the land it claims, which means that its imaginary borders are invalid. The whole idea of the progeny of the white invaders telling the progeny of the brown original occupants that they can't cross borders on their own continent is, obviously, ludicrous and immoral.

["Mad" Miles]

Imagery,

I read everything you write here. I have since you joined waccobb. Sometimes you write things I agree with. Often you take an alarmist, accusatory and blinkered position that I either ignore, or respond to if I see fit.

Your repetition of stereotypes, negative ones that are all too common, of undocumented workers and their families got me to respond. As I would to anyone who did the same.

I don't expect us to agree. Based on our mutual experience here, I suspect that would be a rare event.

As for your championing John Jenkel in his plight with the law and The Man, I've already commented on where I see the problem lays. And it's squarely with him.

He's been on his current trajectory for years, the latest developments are not surprising or unexpected. It does go to illustrate a major social problem, one of many that we face in our society.

Without available affordable mental health care for those who can't afford it, or in some, many fewer cases, those who refuse to avail themselves of it, what is to be done when a mostly functional adult engages in self-destructive behavior which clearly stems from a delusional malady?

What we do now is to let them, so long as they don't physically harm themselves or others, follow their own path. Whatever the consequences. John inherited a butt load of money and property. That has allowed him to pursue his interests, as ludicrous and irritating as they may be. Aside from offending many, many people with his antics, he's not harmed anyone, at least not seriously.

He lost in court to his neighbor, he refused to pay the financial penalty. He's right, everyone else is wrong, or actively engaged in a government conspiracy to muzzle him.

I just hope he's able to keep enough of his resources for himself so that he doesn't end up on the street. Raving like the other untreated and self-medicating mentally ill and impoverished. As far as I know, and what I know about him is from the political scene, his broadsides and the press coverage he's engendered, I don't know him personally even though I've seen him a few times in public and have had brief conversations with the economically marginal people he employs, "rents" to, and has inveigled into his folie a few, he doesn't engage in substance abuse. So maybe, even if he does tank financially, he'll have the means to keep some basic material comforts for himself.

Imagery, what I see you doing, often, is rushing to judgment, extrapolating from limited evidence to the worst possible conclusions about others, and then calling for retribution for their "crimes". In the case of the rapist in Sebastopol a few years ago, I had sympathy with your position. But other times, including these two cases, I think you need to find out a bit more before you organize the posse and start handing out the torches and pitchforks.

Here's a hint. Most of the shit that goes down is the result of systemic causes. Personalizing social problems and focusing on the "individuals" responsible, even though that's understandable and may be necessary at times, is overall a recipe for spinning your wheels and wallowing in a swamp of recrimination and demonisation.

I've never seen the percentages in that approach to our problems. It's been pretty well tried for untold generations, and I don't see things getting any better from focusing on that set of "solutions".

And there lies the difference between us. And between me and many, many others. I'll follow the light of my own understanding of what is Reason, thank you very much.

["Mad" Miles]

Dixon,

The first link works for me, and I'm not "registered" with La Raza. The second, for the waccobb.net search, is now dead. Just do a search here for "Immigration" and observe the wonder.

As for your take on property relations in the poorly named Americas, we're on the same page. But as we both know, the Devil is in the Details.

"Can't we all just get along?"

[zenekar]

La Raza, a very much biased advocate, is probably NOT the best source for unbiased information.

Spend a day observing people at the welfare office. Go by your local hospital emergency waiting rooms. Look at the reality as it is, not some document written by people who aren't in fact doing these things, or twist numbers until they come out looking good for their side. Notice that La Raza uses Texas as their "example" state, and not California. Any particular reason?

______
_____

Imagery, I advise that you spend a day observing the people working in the vineyards, restaurants, hotels, doing construction, landscaping, day labor... Look for yourself at the "reality as it is" as you say. And yes, they pay taxes. Don't blame immigrants for the greed of the elite who, wile profiting from cheap labor of immigrants, create a climate of immigrant bashing to divide us so we don't focus on the real criminals and parasites -- the elite.

BTW, the imported produce you see in supermarkets are mostly foods that are seasonal, when those crops don't grow in the north. Also, most of those crops are grown on large plantations owned by huge corporations like Dole, that have displaced subsistence farmers who either work for unimaginably low wages on the plantations or migrate to where they can earn a living. You might be forced to make the same decision if you were in their shoes.

[Imagery]

______
_____

Imagery, I advise that you spend a day observing the people working in the vineyards, restaurants, hotels, doing construction, landscaping, day labor... Look for yourself at the "reality as it is" as you say. And yes, they pay taxes. Don't blame immigrants for the greed of the elite who, wile profiting from cheap labor of immigrants, create a climate of immigrant bashing to divide us so we don't focus on the real criminals and parasites -- the elite.

BTW, the imported produce you see in supermarkets are mostly foods that are seasonal, when those crops don't grow in the north. Also, most of those crops are grown on large plantations owned by huge corporations like Dole, that have displaced subsistence farmers who either work for unimaginably low wages on the plantations or migrate to where they can earn a living. You might be forced to make the same decision if you were in their shoes.

You make a very good case for my point, thank you.
I'm not blaming immigrants for the greed of the elite. If you'll notice, you mention that immigrants are "forced" to come here - in order to get away from the corporate greed and not being able to make a living wage. What do they face here in America? Well, if La Raza is to be believed, they face the same conditions (not making a living wage) that they face at home.

Perhaps I look at it differently, from the economic law of supply and demand.

We'll say, for a hypothetical example, that someone you know owns a vineyard, a small farm, or a restaurant.

If they have a small labor pool to choose from, then they would wind up having to compete with other business owners for the people to fill those positions. I believe that they would have to offer something (additional wages, perhaps?) in order to obtain the best labor for their business. In the current economy, they have people lined up around the block to take that job...what motivation do they have to offer a living wage? They can offer minimum wage (or possibly less), and some desperate person will sign up just to make a pittance that they offer.

So with that in mind, why are immigrants still illegally crossing the borders?


Here's a real world example of some greedy f***er using this law of supply and demand(a REAL job posting on Craigslist):

Employee drivers needed for blueprint delivery in the San Rafael/Marin County area.

You will use YOUR small 4 cylinder car for work. Routes are Monday thru Friday. Pay: $440 a week.

Drivers must be willing to drive 150+ miles per day. Must be clean appearance and willing to lift up to 50 lbs. Must be able to speak and write English.

Advancement and overtime may be available, please call 877-RIP-UOFF(selectively edited) today for more information.

Compensation: $440 a week
Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster.
Please, no phone calls about this job!
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.

If you figure it out, based on an "average" older 4-cylinder getting 25mpg, that's a minimum of 6 gallons of gas. 6 x $4.20/gal. and add in, perhaps $3/day for insurance costs, and you see where this is going.

$440/wk. = $88/day

$88 - $28 = $60/day

I haven't started counting vehicle maintenance, etc.

Is THIS what you would refer to as a "living wage"? If the labor pool is too large, it affects other parts of the job market. I could find you at least ten of these examples - where companies want to exploit the labor of others for their own profit.