To Snip or not to Snip that is the question?

[mykil]

I was asked a serious enough question from a close friend that is due to have a baby soon enough. Most everyone knows this lovely woman, and of course the title of the post says it all, to snip or not to snip. Circumcision is a serious question in this day and age.


Her concerns are for the child and the child only, since we are the spirituality fore front of the child in question, meaning we are all going to be the church of Little River Littlewig she would like to know what we think. As far a what women what for one, virus what is best for the child. So please feel free to give her your best, we all have thoughts and she will be reading this post so let if flow freely...

[Nemea Laessig]

If it was my child I would *not* circumcise. There is no medical reason for it and I believe it does damage to not only the male organ, later making it not as sensitive and sometimes leading to sexual dysfunction, but a wound to the male psyche that lasts a lifetime. Intact America

[Barry]

For non-Jews, I think it is clearly best not to circumcise.

For Jews (I'm Jewish) it's more complicated. Breaking a 4,000 year "covenant with God" is not trivial. When my children were born, after much consternation, I decided to circumcise. Nicely enough, I got a pass - 2 girls!

If I had to do it over again, I would choose not to circumcise. I think the ritual served a purpose for many years, but now consciousness has evolved to make it no longer necessary.

Many blessings to Little River and his wonderful parents!

[someguy]

"making it not as sensitive" "but a wound to the male psyche that lasts a lifetime." Intact America

I have no opinion one way or another on this subject, but I would like to point out that being a circumcised male myself, my penis has not ever been a wound to my psyche, nor can I say that my penis is any less sensitive than someone's uncircumcised wang. I can't say that with complete certainty, for obvious reasons, but I will testify before you all that I have said to myself from time to time 'my god is my penis sensitive!' hehehe... So far I have no regrets, no complaints, and I can say that I would definitely consider circumcising my child.

[NorseViking869]

What hurts is as a man who's parents thought it was necessary for me to have one before I was able to make the decision, I do not know if I would have enjoyed my sexual life with an uncut member. I think that it should be considered a cosmetic procedure and left up to the adult who is old enough to make the decision.

[lifequest]

Couldn't have said it any better Someguy...and as an added bonus if I buy wine at Safeway when they scan me they won't know or care whether or not I've been snipped.

[Dynamique]

A few years ago Randi Rhodes mentioned a saying to the effect that as Israel goes, so goes the U.S. There seems to be a lot of validity to that observation, especially with respect to constructing walls on borders.

Until recently, Israel and the U.S. were the only countries in which the majority of the males are circumcised as infants. Amazing coincidence? Or maybe its that collective psychic wound being expressed. Hmmmm

[Juggledude]

< to snip or not to snip. Circumcision is a serious question in this day and age. . . .

Her concerns are for the child and the child only, s...

Aside from outdated societal mores, are there ANY reasons to modify an infant's body?

Not that I'm aware of. Frankly, knowing the mother, I'm shocked that the question is even being asked.

Why on earth would you snip? (are you a closet Jew?)

Royce

[mykil]

Now that this lovely subject has emerged from deep in the fog, it has brought up some emotional turmoil deep from within. What would have happened if I had not been sniped? Might I spend more time playing with my jewels? I already am fascinated to the point that I will show it to just about anyone that wants to take a peek and can't seem to keep my hands off of this awesome spectacle I have still not named due to the fact that I have not cum up with a name suitable. I try to get every woman I know to put her hands on this bad boy. But what would it be like to not have had the ole snip arony? What am I missing out on, and could I even begin to handle such a monstrosity? Are you sniped Royce ole man? I forgot to look last time you were in the pool...


I know an old man, he is 88, he is not sniped and has to wash his hands before and after each and every time. I know another old man whom is no longer with us that had his done when he was around 55, due to an infection due to poor hygiene. I have heard stories about this over and over and have always coincided myself lucky, but know I am not so sure. What am I missing??? Do the ladies really like it much more better without the ole snip snip? Is it a better feeling? oh man there goes my ego!!!

[NorseViking869]

i think the Jim Morrison's poem "Lament for the cock" off of American Prayer would best describe how many a poor boy of any age must feel.

Now that this lovely subject has emerged from deep in the fog, it has brought up some emotional turmoil deep from within. What would have happened if I had not been sniped? Might I spend more time playing with my jewels? I already am fascinated to the point that I will show it to just about anyone that wants to take a peek and can't seem to keep my hands off of this awesome spectacle I have still not named due to the fact that I have not cum up with a name suitable. I try to get every woman I know to put her hands on this bad boy. But what would it be like to not have had the ole snip arony? What am I missing out on, and could I even begin to handle such a monstrosity? Are you sniped Royce ole man? I forgot to look last time you were in the pool...


I know an old man, he is 88, he is not sniped and has to wash his hands before and after each and every time. I know another old man whom is no longer with us that had his done when he was around 55, due to an infection due to poor hygiene. I have heard stories about this over and over and have always coincided myself lucky, but know I am not so sure. What am I missing??? Do the ladies really like it much more better without the ole snip snip? Is it a better feeling? oh man there goes my ego!!!

[benissimus]

If she really wants what is best for the child, then she will not change his perfect little body when he is born. There is seriously something sick with our society when parents have the mentality that they must welcome their perfect little baby into the world with bloodcurdling agony and mutilation. Do your research and you will see their are no health benefits ( Circumcision Information and Resource Pages ). These guys saying their penis works just fine don't even know what they are missing, how can they offer a fair assessment? Working "good enough" means nothing, you can never have too much pleasure in your penis, but circumcision removes an enormous amount of nerves there. I recommend telling your friend to watch a video of the procedure, and only if she can tolerate that should she even consider putting her own child through that.

The best thing for the baby is to leave him in one piece!

I was asked a serious enough question from a close friend that is due to have a baby soon enough. Most everyone knows this lovely woman, and of course the title of the post says it all, to snip or not to snip. Circumcision is a serious question in this day and age.


Her concerns are for the child and the child only, since we are the spirituality fore front of the child in question, meaning we are all going to be the church of Little River Littlewig she would like to know what we think. As far a what women what for one, virus what is best for the child. So please feel free to give her your best, we all have thoughts and she will be reading this post so let if flow freely...

[Hugh7]

... I have said to myself from time to time 'my god is my penis sensitive!'

Interestingly, intact guys never seem to describe their penes as being "extremely sensitive" like this, but we often hear circumcised guys say "If it were any more sensitive, I'd have a heart attack!" and the like. I think this is indicative of an actual change, and not necessarily for the better. For many intact men, their glans is extremely sensitive - to pain. The foreskin contains ~20,000 specialised nerves, concentrated in a ridged band running round the inside (so that they only come into play when it comes out to play). Cutting those off, or most of them, means that what is left has to do the work they did, and almost inevitably must mean, not so well. The foreskin has been described as conferring "a symphony of sensation" and men circumcised in adulthood describe the difference as like going colourblind. So it's not just the quantity but the quality.

[Hugh7]

I know an old man, he is 88, he is not sniped and has to wash his hands before and after each and every time.

Well, some say everyone should. Is that such a hardship?

I know another old man whom is no longer with us that had his done when he was around 55, due to an infection due to poor hygiene. I have heard stories about this over and over...

And his problem was poor hygiene, not having a foreskin. And you never hear about the literally billions of intact men who never have any trouble.

Do the ladies really like it much more better without the ole snip snip? Is it a better feeling? oh man there goes my ego!!!

More to the point , should we be cutting babies to cater to the tastes of hypothetical future partners?

I wish people would stop using the word "snip". Watch a video of it being done and then see if you can call it that.

[cutboy]

Infant genital mutilation is the work of madmen. www.sexasnatureintendedit.com

[cutboy]

Cut any child when he or she is powerless; you have traumatized him or her for life...male of female. Google, Tinari/MRI, to find out why most American men seem to be walkin around in a trance.

[Mrs. Wacco]

I have always preferred snipped over not-snipped. It's prettier.

Interestingly, after extensive research (and loads of fun), I have only encountered un-snipped about 3 times. And have been with far more non-Jewish men than Jewish men. So go figure....

I circumsized my son with an official briss in my house. His distress lasted about 60 seconds. When he was about 10, he complained that he thought too much was taken off because he was smaller than a friend. Other than that, I haven't heard any complaints. (not that I would)

What am I missing??? Do the ladies really like it much more better without the ole snip snip? Is it a better feeling? oh man there goes my ego!!!

[rare_gem57]

Thanks for the question, Mykil. Years ago, when I was pregnant, I did a lot of reading on the subject. I decided that if I had a boy, I would not circumcise. I ended up having a daughter, so the point became moot. However, the most pressing arguments in favor (cleanliness, appearance, and being like the majority of his peers) did not seem compelling enough to make me want to choose it. Cleanliness is something we teach our children, and it's their choice later in life to continue or not. I've had wonderful partners, both cut & uncut... as well as less-than-wonderful in both categories. No guarantees! M

I was asked a serious enough question from a close friend that is due to have a baby soon enough. Most everyone knows this lovely woman, and of course the title of the post says it all, to snip or not to snip. Circumcision is a serious question in this day and age.


Her concerns are for the child and the child only, since we are the spirituality fore front of the child in question, meaning we are all going to be the church of Little River Littlewig she would like to know what we think. As far a what women what for one, virus what is best for the child. So please feel free to give her your best, we all have thoughts and she will be reading this post so let if flow freely...

[mykil]

A while ago cutboy suggested, in a post that was deleted most likely, that is would be a snap to keep your little pecker clean as long as you were taught right to take care of your own personal hygiene. I have to contribute to this one factor the best I can.


My friend Howard that is 88 year sold still has problems with this, and I don't mean he is unsanitary at all. He is one of those people that takes great care in his well being as an individual, he still has every single one of his teeth in his mouth for gawd sakes at 88. Lets see anyone else pull this off. But he does have to be extremely careful while playing with his pecker. WE used to work in the woods together a lot when I was growing up and he would have oil and dirt on his hands, having to deal with just watching him take a leak was almost as bad as trying to convince a woman it is alright to pull her pants down on the side of the road to go tinkle. He would have to go find water, or a towel, or anything to make sure his hands were kept clean just in order to archive a simple task. Not the best scenario for a man that worked in the woods everyday of his life.


Now knowing how little river is to be raised, you know on the river, running wild in the trees and forest is everyone certain that not getting snipped is the right answer. There seems to be a reason people started getting snipped in the first place, mutilation or not mutilation. The ones that are calling it mutilation are well bent over the matter, while the ones tend to really believe in the outcome of the event. I am still not set on it yet I believe there is a purpose for the little snip snip for sure.

["Mad" Miles]

There was a previous thread from a couple of years ago where people were more forthcoming with various factual claims. I just did a search for it and couldn't find it. Was it on the previous email list? Claims and counter-claims about HPV, AIDS and other STD transmission were made, if I recall correctly.

I never thought of my wang as "pretty", thanks for that! I woke up today and started writing alternative lyrics to the song from West Side Story, "I Feel Pretty!". Didn't write them down. I had a problem with too many syllables per phrase. "My Penis is pretty, oh so pretty, oh so pretty and lovely and", ahhh I'm not gay! Except in the archaic sense!

Remember when Everything You Wanted To Know About Sex* But Were Afraid To Ask came out back in the early seventies? It introduced the concept of smegma to an entire generation of adolescent males, of which I was one, and generated an entire new category of insults!

[CSummer]

Thank you for this, Barry. It most certainly is clearly best not to violate a male human infant's rights by removing a normal, functioning part of his anatomy. As far as God is concerned, I once wrote:

God got it right
When he made your son
If anyone says: "Circumcise!"
They've got it wrong!

Hence, to circumcise is an insult to the Creator and a perversion of her/his/its healthy, wise intentions. (I believe it has traditionally been done for the psychological effect of putting "teeth" into clan loyalty.) Routine infant circumcision (RIC) is nothing more than ritual abuse of defenseless infants, has no medical benefit, unless you count the financial benefit to the MD and supporting personnel and companies. Infants have died as a result of complications arising from RIC.

As Nemea says, the psychological effects (e.g., PTSD) can last a lifetime, and few males would even have any awareness of either the reality or origin of these effects except through many years of in-depth psychological exploration. Visit the Intact America link in Nemea's post or the National Organization of Circumcision Information Resource Centers site (which has a video of Dr. Dean Edell speaking on the subject) for more info about the risks and the bogus studies that purport to validate the benefits of circumcision.

In short, if the question is to snip or not to snip, the answer will hopefully be obvious to anyone who cares about their infant and wants to protect him (as her) from harm.

Peace,
C. Summer

For non-Jews, I think it is clearly best not to circumcise.

For Jews (I'm Jewish) it's more complicated. Breaking a 4,000 year "covenant with God" is not trivial. When my children were born, after much consternation, I decided to circumcise. Nicely enough, I got a pass - 2 girls!

If I had to do it over again, I would choose not to circumcise. I think the ritual served a purpose for many years, but now consciousness has evolved to make it no longer necessary.

Many blessings to Little River and his wonderful parents!

[CSummer]

Someguy writes: "my penis has not ever been a wound to my psyche." Your penis may not be a wound, but what about the experience of being circumcised? Do you have any recollection of what that was like for you? Or how it could have changed you psychologically?

It took me close to 45 years and perhaps 15 years of psychological work before I recognized my symptoms of PTSD and even longer to discover that they originated almost certainly with my circumcision experience. Of course, many of these symptoms are considered "normal," just the way men are: cut off from their feelings, out of touch with their bodies, etc.

Infant circumcision is a crime against a male human in that it violates his rights to an intact body and freedom from violent assaults. It is also a crime against humanity, as it can profoundly affect the relationships (e.g., ability to trust) and attitudes toward other humans. Rape and other violent acts may well be traceable - at least in part - to the effects of circumcision. Violence in - violence out; unresolved traumatic experiences can result in callousness toward the needs and feelings of others - as well as one's own.

Many addictive behaviors can arise in an attempt to mask over the unmet needs and unexpressed feelings carried along with such experiences. And though it may be buried well below conscious awareness, those feelings, needs and the beliefs formed around them will continue to have a powerful influence on our lives and relationships.

Want to know why our society and world are the way they are? Look at the attitudes and treatment of infants and children. These have the most formative effects on our consciousness, and it is from that consciousness that our society has arisen. (Which is why I feel it's so important people know the truth about circumcision.)

C. Summer

I have no opinion one way or another on this subject, but I would like to point out that being a circumcised male myself, my penis has not ever been a wound to my psyche, nor can I say that my penis is any less sensitive than someone's uncircumcised wang. I can't say that with complete certainty, for obvious reasons, but I will testify before you all that I have said to myself from time to time 'my god is my penis sensitive!' hehehe... So far I have no regrets, no complaints, and I can say that I would definitely consider circumcising my child.

[Tinque]

This is completely selfish and I am aware of this and still feel how I feel.. I love a circumcised penis. It is beautiful , clean and yummy. I have seen the circumcision of a "Jewish" baby I was taking care of years ago and I admit it was intense. I gave birth to a son and after MUCH debate and research , I had him circumcised .I did not watch. My mother went in with him , I did not want to. I would not take it against anyone for not being circumcised , as I would not disrespect any ones opinion on the matter. I just thought I would add my thoughts on the subject ! How about all those piercings ! Talk about invasive or not.. Old enough to have an opinion of what to do with your own body. I can only hope that my son is happy with my choice.. But how could he know any different ? As I first said... A selfish choice...on my part.

[CSummer]

To make their daughters more desirable to men is exactly the reason some African cultures perform female genital mutilation, which can have devastating effects on the victims of this practice. Would you do that to your daughter? If not, why do it to your son?

> Interestingly, after extensive research (and loads of fun), I have only encountered un-snipped about 3 times. And have been with far more non-Jewish men than Jewish men.

Somehow, I have difficulty seeing what's interesting about the fact that men who had no choice in the matter ended up "snipped." It was a very common practice after WWII, so most male baby boomers were circumcised. Fortunately, the procedure is becoming much less common.

I have always preferred snipped over not-snipped. It's prettier.

Interestingly, after extensive research (and loads of fun), I have only encountered un-snipped about 3 times. And have been with far more non-Jewish men than Jewish men. So go figure....

I circumsized my son with an official briss in my house. His distress lasted about 60 seconds. When he was about 10, he complained that he thought too much was taken off because he was smaller than a friend. Other than that, I haven't heard any complaints. (not that I would)

[Garden Goddess]

More to the point , should we be cutting babies to cater to the tastes of hypothetical future partners?

My two sons are not circumsised, neither is my brother. I have had experience with one partner who was "intact".

I have never seen this in print before, but in my experience, I have had trouble having orgasms. This problem did not exist with the intact partner.

There is a cuddly, cushiony thing that happens that also has a vibratory component. Physiologically, I think that is what is meant to happen.

So, ladies, think twice, just what are you being selfish about?

[2Bwacco]

Our world never fails to offer limitless variety of the human condition. One thing is for sure, since the time of the Inca, child sacrifice has been practiced. Sadly, it continues today.

If you can stomach it, the full article can be "googled:" "Child sacrifice on the rise in Uganda."

The article offers a positive aspect to being circumcised:

"...Mawa's agency has helped with several recent cases of child sacrifice. A 2-year-old boy had his penis cut off by a witch doctor in eastern Uganda and now urinates through a tube, Mawa said.

A 12-year-old named Shafik had a knife put to his throat when a female witch doctor realized the boy was circumcised.

Witch doctors don't kill children who are circumcised or who have pierced ears because they are considered impure, Mawa said.

As a result, some parents have taken their children to get piercings or circumcisions."

[sharingwisdom]

Yes, it is truly sad that ritual abuse, mutilation and sacrifice occurs all over the world, not just in 3rd world countries, under the premise of religious tradition. I agree with CSummer that the act of circumcision can be long lasting and a deeply repressed issue having taken men into trance where they remembered this horrific act at birth or soon after. I have 2 grown sons and daughters, and though my parents were part jewish, I'd never do this to my children and am glad it wasn't done to my grandson.

I found this article, from a Mohel (rabbi who makes a living circumsizing) to be difficult in a tradition of martyrdom of Abraham thinking God wanted this.
In Kabbalistic terms, the foreskin symbolizes a barrier which prevents growth. For example, when the Torah speaks about getting close to God, it calls upon us to "remove the Orlah, the foreskin of your heart" (Deut. 10:16).
Traditional Circumcision (Bris Milah) 845.323.9567 - Bris Milah:Beautiful or Barbaric

I'm surprised that he doesn't cut out the real heart, like the Mayans did, with this kind of interpretation. Why does torturing a male baby make him closer to the energy that runs through all of creation. These are outdated belief systems that do not serve the evolving journey we are on.

And the article goes on to say "It is a foundation of Judaism that we are to control our animal desires and direct them into spiritual pursuits. Nowhere does a person have more potential for expressing "barbaric" behavior than in the sex drive. That's why the Bris is done on this specific organ. If we bring holiness into our life there, then all other areas will follow."

I just can't imagine that it's 'holy" to mutilate children and to purposely attempt to make their sexuality a terrible experience from the start. What makes a child unholy to be born with everything intact? Why does a 4000 year tradition still hold rules that continue to harm children and create sexual shame?

"The Talmud forbids male masturbation, as it leads to unnecessary spilling of semen, or the impure thoughts of women other than the man's lawful wife and can cause the rath of God." And this is true for many religions and sects... outdated, restrictive, painful beliefs that attempt to stop us from shining who we really are. I truly believe that we really need to rethink carfully what traditions help support raising conscious, loving beings.

Our world never fails to offer limitless variety of the human condition. One thing is for sure, since the time of the Inca, child sacrifice has been practiced. Sadly, it continues today.

If you can stomach it, the full article can be "googled:" "Child sacrifice on the rise in Uganda."

The article offers a positive aspect to being circumcised:

"...Mawa's agency has helped with several recent cases of child sacrifice. A 2-year-old boy had his penis cut off by a witch doctor in eastern Uganda and now urinates through a tube, Mawa said.

A 12-year-old named Shafik had a knife put to his throat when a female witch doctor realized the boy was circumcised.

Witch doctors don't kill children who are circumcised or who have pierced ears because they are considered impure, Mawa said.

As a result, some parents have taken their children to get piercings or circumcisions."

[NorseViking869]

Foreskin restoration for circumcised males

This page has some interesting information. i would like to have this done if at all possible.Even if it only functioned for about a day after the healing, it would be worth it.

[sambacat]

My son fell asleep during the procedure. It is not as big a deal as I was stressing that it would be. I think concern about circumcision and PTSD is yet another unnecessary fear.

[alanora]

I seem to recall some group that enjoyed/employed weights applied to the remaining skin with stretching it intended to appear more like intact. just a thought... Was it Jews in hiding from nazi's that employed that method?!

Foreskin restoration for circumcised males

This page has some interesting information. i would like to have this done if at all possible.Even if it only functioned for about a day after the healing, it would be worth it.

[Tinque]

That is because "It's so pretty , oh so pretty" and we know where that gets you ! It's "superlicious"! (This is only meant as a funny statement for my friend Mykil .) In no way, please, should any one take offense. .Thanks

A while ago cutboy suggested, in a post that was deleted most likely, that is would be a snap to keep your little pecker clean as long as you were taught right to take care of your own personal hygiene. I have to contribute to this one factor the best I can.


My friend Howard that is 88 year sold still has problems with this, and I don't mean he is unsanitary at all. He is one of those people that takes great care in his well being as an individual, he still has every single one of his teeth in his mouth for gawd sakes at 88. Lets see anyone else pull this off. But he does have to be extremely careful while playing with his pecker. WE used to work in the woods together a lot when I was growing up and he would have oil and dirt on his hands, having to deal with just watching him take a leak was almost as bad as trying to convince a woman it is alright to pull her pants down on the side of the road to go tinkle. He would have to go find water, or a towel, or anything to make sure his hands were kept clean just in order to archive a simple task. Not the best scenario for a man that worked in the woods everyday of his life.


Now knowing how little river is to be raised, you know on the river, running wild in the trees and forest is everyone certain that not getting snipped is the right answer. There seems to be a reason people started getting snipped in the first place, mutilation or not mutilation. The ones that are calling it mutilation are well bent over the matter, while the ones tend to really believe in the outcome of the event. I am still not set on it yet I believe there is a purpose for the little snip snip for sure.