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  1. TopTop #1
    d-cat
    Guest

    Global Warming Fraud?

    It sure has been getting warmer lately. I also heard from my friends abroad who report of record breaking temperatures. It seems we really are now experiencing global warming. But is this warming man made, or is it due to a natural cycle of the sun and our planet? As we are now starting to hear about proposed global warming taxes, I thought it might be a good time to look into what the scientists are saying. I've come across some documentaries on the subject, and I thought I'd share them with you.

    Global Warming Doomsday Called Off (Canada)
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...10462407994295

    The Great Global Warming Swindle (UK)
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...10842208417568

    Climate Catastrophe Cancelled: What You're Not Being Told (Canada)
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...13209160533271

    Green House Conspiracy (Australia)
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...34802461518010

    ARTICLE: Majority Of Scientists Do Not Support Man Made Warming Theory
    https://infowars.net/articles/august...807Warming.htm
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  2. TopTop #2
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Hi,

    Sorry but I'm not sure I understand your point. The article is by Steve Watson, a British writer for Info Wars and is not put out by the Dept of Energy as you state. The survey is by Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte and was submitted to the journal Energy and Environment, and Daily Tech has a pre-publication copy:

    https://www.dailytech.com/Survey+Les...rticle8641.htm

    You have a link to the Dept of Energy but I'm having trouble understanding what the connection is. Do you have any info that Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte's survey was not scientific?

    Just to be clear, the article does not state that global warming isn't real, but that it being man made is a fraud.

    Thanks.


    Quote Clancy wrote: View Post
    LOL, the 'Definitive proof' (ARTICLE: Majority Of Scientists Do Not Support Man Made Warming Theory) that global warming is a fraud comes from a publication put out by the Department of Energy whose goals are "to advance the national, economic, and energy security of the United States."
    https://www.netl.doe.gov/about/index.html

    The 'survey' they cite is not scientific, and is not a peer reviewed study, and isn't even available for review.
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  3. TopTop #3
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote Clancy wrote: View Post
    The Journal of Energy and Environment is a DOE publication, and the 'survey' cited has not been peer reviewed, because it isn't a scientific study.
    Thanks for the clarification Clancy. I see that 'The Journal of Energy and Environment' is a DOE publication, but what was mentioned in the article is the journal 'Energy and Environment' which is in the UK.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_and_Environment

    From what I understand, Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte's survey involved looking at 500+ peer reviewed scientific research papers, written between 2004 and 2007. What is the significance of whether his survey of scientific papers was peer reviewed and how does it relate to the subject at hand?

    Thanks again.
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  4. TopTop #4
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Yes, I can understand the confusion.

    According to Wikipedia (btw it was revealed recently that they can't be trusted), "Energy and Environment is an interdisciplinary journal aimed primarily at social scientists, published by Multi-Science. The journal's editor is Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, a global warming skeptic[1][2] and reader in geography at the University of Hull in England and researcher in the political aspects of climate change." Is this pretty much the same as The Journal of Energy and Environment?

    One thing though, I am also a skeptic of the man made catastrophic global warming theory, and also have interest in the subjects they published which you listed, but I do not serve the oil industry (I in fact hate them and drive a veggie oil car )

    Do you have a link to something that would show me that the UK's Energy and Environment serves the oil industry?

    I do understand the purpose of a peer review for a scientific paper, but in this case I understood that Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte's survey of peer reviewed scientific papers was more of a count of yays and nays. I respectfully have to disagree with you in regard to not knowing how he came up with the results (he got it from the 500+ peer reviewed research papers), and disagree about having no way of checking them (it's just a matter of checking the research papers). I was under the impression that the delay of the publication was due it was being reviewed.


    Quote Clancy wrote: View Post
    You are right, but the journal Energy and Environment is the UK equivalent of The Journal of Energy and Environment, and since their names are almost identical, and they serve an identical purpose, you may understand the confusion. Both publications serve the oil and gas industries, they don't publish scientific, peer reviewed studies. This is from their home page;

    Some recent papers in Energy and Environment
    The politics of fuel pricing in Latin America and their implications for the environment
    Jorge Rogat (Denmark)
    Market diffusion of new renewable energy in Europe: explaining front-runner and laggard positions
    Per-Ove Eikeland and Ingvild Sáéverud (Norway)
    Voluntary agreements for energy efficiency: review and results of European experiences
    Paolo Bertoldi & Silvia Rezessy (Italy, Hungary)
    The economics of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge Emily Schaeffer & Walter Block (USA)
    Viewpoints and Technical Communications China's hunt for oil in Africa in perspective
    Zhongxiang Zhang (USA)
    The impact of energy policies on the development of renewable energies
    Martin Gastal (Switzerland)
    Problems with publishing scientific information on the web: how unusual were temperatures in Svalbard, Norway?
    Willis Eschenbach (Alaska)
    An economist looks at recent energy policy statements
    John Gault (Switzerland)
    https://www.multi-science.co.uk/ee.htm

    And to answer your question "What is the significance of whether his survey of scientific papers was peer reviewed and how does it relate to the subject on hand?"

    The significance is, you don't know how he came up with the results, and you have no way of checking them.
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  5. TopTop #5

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    You are being amazingly obtuse about this. What the guy pretended to do is called a meta-analysis, here's an explanation
    https://wilderdom.com/research/meta-analysis.html

    When you can show us a meta-analysis that supports his claim, it will be front page news, and the entire scientific world will sit up and take notice.

    Quote d-cat wrote: View Post
    Yes, I can understand the confusion.

    According to Wikipedia (btw it was revealed recently that they can't be trusted), "Energy and Environment is an interdisciplinary journal aimed primarily at social scientists, published by Multi-Science. The journal's editor is Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, a global warming skeptic[1][2] and reader in geography at the University of Hull in England and researcher in the political aspects of climate change." Is this pretty much the same as The Journal of Energy and Environment?

    One thing though, I am also a skeptic of the man made catastrophic global warming theory, and also have interest in the subjects they published which you listed, but I do not serve the oil industry (I in fact hate them and drive a veggie oil car )

    Do you have a link to something that would show me that the UK's Energy and Environment serves the oil industry?

    I do understand the purpose of a peer review for a scientific paper, but in this case I understood that Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte's survey of peer reviewed scientific papers was more of a count of yays and nays. I respectfully have to disagree with you in regard to not knowing how he came up with the results (he got it from the 500+ peer reviewed research papers), and disagree about having no way of checking them (it's just a matter of checking the research papers). I was under the impression that the delay of the publication was due it was being reviewed.
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  6. TopTop #6
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Clancy,

    This exchange seems to be going off on tangents and getting nowhere. I guess you believe that Dr. Schulte's survey is not reliable as you believe that he is pretending to do meta-analysis. I have not yet seen the survey so I'll withhold judgement.

    I asked you to back up your claims because so far, you have stated that the "Majority Of Scientists Do Not Support Man Made Warming Theory" was an article put out by the Dept of Energy (it was put out by Info Wars), that the two journals serve an identical purpose (you wouldn't answer my question about that), and that the journal 'Energy and Environment' serves the oil industry (which you wouldn't substantiate).You started this exchange with an LOL (about something you were wrong about) and now you call me obtuse.

    I don't know if you watched the documentaries or not but if you did, you might understand why I question the politicians' and corporate media's version of global warming. This exchange has been time consuming and confusing, with no new knowledge gained for me. So I hope you'll understand why I do not wish to continue this exchange any further.

    I put up this thread because I have come across an alternative explanation to global warming, and I thought open-minded people would find it interesting. I'm looking for answers; I'm not looking to be right.
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  7. TopTop #7
    OrchardDweller
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    d-cat, thanks for the links. Very interesting!
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  8. TopTop #8

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    I focused on the fake study because you don't even seem to be able to understand that if it were true, the myriad economic interests that have a stake in 'debunking' global warming due to carbon emissions would already have sponsored a scientific meta-analysis of the data, it would be huge news, and you'd be posting IT instead of hearsay about a 'survey' that no one can look at.

    As for the journal Energy and Environment, they've pulled a similar stunt before and been caught.
    https://seattlepi.nwsource.com/natio...warming02.html








    Quote d-cat wrote: View Post
    Clancy,

    This exchange seems to be going off on tangents and getting nowhere. I guess you believe that Dr. Schulte's survey is not reliable as you believe that he is pretending to do meta-analysis. I have not yet seen the survey so I'll withhold judgement.

    I asked you to back up your claims because so far, you have stated that the "Majority Of Scientists Do Not Support Man Made Warming Theory" was an article put out by the Dept of Energy (it was put out by Info Wars), that the two journals serve an identical purpose (you wouldn't answer my question about that), and that the journal 'Energy and Environment' serves the oil industry (which you wouldn't substantiate).You started this exchange with an LOL (about something you were wrong about) and now you call me obtuse.

    I don't know if you watched the documentaries or not but if you did, you might understand why I question the politicians' and corporate media's version of global warming. This exchange has been time consuming and confusing, with no new knowledge gained for me. So I hope you'll understand why I do not wish to continue this exchange any further.

    I put up this thread because I have come across an alternative explanation to global warming, and I thought open-minded people would find it interesting. I'm looking for answers; I'm not looking to be right.
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  9. TopTop #9
    OrchardDweller
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote Clancy wrote: View Post
    I focused on the fake study because you don't even seem to be able to understand that if it were true, the myriad economic interests that have a stake in 'debunking' global warming due to carbon emissions would already have sponsored a scientific meta-analysis of the data, it would be huge news, and you'd be posting IT instead of hearsay about a 'survey' that no one can look at.

    As for the journal Energy and Environment, they've pulled a similar stunt before and been caught.
    https://seattlepi.nwsource.com/natio...warming02.html
    Is Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte, who conducted the recent, yet to be published survey, connected to this 2003 study? If he is, I think you might be on to something. I don't find his name mentioned in the article.

    Your article does mention Ross Gelbspan:

    Ross Gelbspan, a former Boston Globe reporter and editor whose 1997 book, "The Heat is On," details industry efforts to discredit climate change science, said conclusions that greenhouse gases are causing the planet to heat up are the result of the "most rigorously peer-reviewed scientific collaboration in history.

    "The contradictory statements of a tiny handful of discredited scientists, funded by big coal and big oil, represent a deliberate -- and extremely reckless -- campaign of deception and disinformation."


    I thought you might be interested to know that The Boston Globe for which Ross Gelbspan was an editor, is owned by the New York Times. On their board of directors are members of the Carlyle Group (with connections to arms and oil via James Baker and Bush Sr.). Bush Sr and James Baker were shareholders and advisors of the Carlyle Group, until they "retired" since the start of the Iraq war.
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  10. TopTop #10
    OrchardDweller
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    I had posted something about the NYT/Carlyle Group connection on another thread a while back: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23567

    "I did a little snooping on the NYT and was pretty surprised to see some major corporate players on the board of directors."

    "Their board of directors consist of members of the Carlyle Group, Big Pharma, and ex-Proctor and Gamble execs, to investment bankers and a handful of other corporations that have interests to protect.

    Sorry to be the one to tell you, but this isn’t front page news folks.

    Corporations have been using their money to influence what we read in the newspaper from the beginning.

    Freedom of the press, the guaranteed in the Bill of Rights, wasn’t for the corporations or the government, it was for us.

    Wm. Kennard, board director and member of the Carlyle Group once said, ”When hundreds of stations are owned by just one person or company, service to local communities and coverage of local issues lose out.”

    I guess his allegiances changed once he joined the firm.

    Newspapers owned by the NYT
    The Boston Globe
    The Courier (Houma, LA)
    The Daily Comet (Thibodaux, LA)
    The Dispatch (Lexington, NC)
    The Gadsden Times (AL)
    The Gainesville Sun (FL)
    International Herald Tribune
    The Ledger (Lakeland, FL)
    The New York Times
    The Press Democrat (Santa Rosa, CA)
    Petaluma Argus-Courier (CA)
    Sarasota Herald-Tribune (FL)
    Spartanburg Herald-Journal (SC)
    Star-Banner (Ocala, FL)
    TimesDaily (Florence, AL)
    Times-News (Hendersonville, NC)
    The Tuscaloosa News (AL)
    The Star News (Wilmington, NC)
    The Worcester Telegram & Gazette
    Controlling what we know about the issues and framing it in a way that serves their corporate masters is the name of the game.
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  11. TopTop #11
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Very interesting. With Saudi Arabia's biggest oilfield Ghawar now in decline, could the corporate elite be looking for new ways to supplement their future income? Keeping the public scared can be very profitable. And government money does not always go where it's supposed to.

    (underlined words above are links)

    ARTICLE: Green taxes 'are making billions'
    https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6972759.stm


    .
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  12. TopTop #12
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    here are some interesting articles I've found:

    Sun's Output Increasing in Possible Trend Fueling Global Warming
    https://www.space.com/scienceastrono...ut_030320.html

    Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says
    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...s-warming.html

    Climate change hits Mars
    https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...cle1720024.ece

    MIT researcher finds evidence of global warming on Neptune's largest moon
    https://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1998/triton.html

    Pluto is undergoing global warming, researchers find
    https://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2002/pluto.html
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  13. TopTop #13
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    and these!

    Scientists threatened for 'climate denial'
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai.../ngreen211.xml

    Death Threats for man-made-global-warming-doesn't-exist scientist
    https://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/cover031207.htm
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  14. TopTop #14
    OrchardDweller
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    d-cat, I've come across this video where it appears that Al Gore misrepresented a photo of polar bears to falsely illustrate the effects of global warming.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKAC4kfHruQ

    I don't know if Al Gore was misinformed, or if he was truly being deceitful, but if Dr. Schulte's survey of 528 peer reviewed scientific research papers is published and proves that the IPCC was indeed lying about there being a consensus among scientists about global warming being man-made, I certainly will think that something really fishy is going on.

    Thanks for all the info!
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  15. TopTop #15
    OrchardDweller
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote Clancy wrote: View Post
    The dumbing down of America has been a fantastic success.
    Sure looks like it! I guess you are familiar with Charlotte Iserby's book "The deliberate dumbing down of America". You can download it for free here:
    https://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/

    I was educated in Europe. Where in America were you educated, Clancy?
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  16. TopTop #16
    OrchardDweller
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote Clancy wrote: View Post
    LOL, so, you believe science when you think (erroneously) that it supports your ideology but you doubt it when it doesn't. Sorry, your preferences are irrelevant to science.

    The same scientific process that has shown that Venus experienced runaway global warming is the same scientific process that shows that man's carbon emissions are causing earth's current global warming.
    Is someone here doubting the science as you claim? It's not the science that is in question here. It's the IPPC's claim of a consensus among scientists that is in question. It's what the scientists are really saying that is of interest here.

    This is the second time you use LOL and then not make any sense afterwards. Is LOL your way of saying that you're Leaving Out Logic?
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  17. TopTop #17
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    The first reaction to truth is hatred. - Tertullian

    Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the first, it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident. - Arthur Schopenhauer

    Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad. - Aldous Huxley

    The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it. - Ayn Rand

    The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth. - Pierre Abelard

    There is nothing to fear except the persistent refusal to find out the truth, the persistent refusal to analyze the causes of happenings. - Dorothy Thompson

    The search for truth is more precious than its possession. - Albert Einstein

    Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false. - Bertrand Russell

    The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear. - Herbert Sebastien Agar

    The modern susceptibility to conformity and obedience to authority indicates that the truth endorsed by authority is likely to be accepted as such by a majority of the people. - David Edwards

    Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. - Buddha

    In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
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  18. TopTop #18
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Let's see, global warming or not? Who really cares? It's not an issue worth arguing about in my opinion.

    All the things we can do to curb "greenhouse" gases are things we should be doing anyway!!!!

    Things like: conserving energy and water, limiting population size, preserving nature, preventing desertification, reducing pollution, cleaning up environmental disasters, saving forests, cleaning up air and water, etc., etc..

    There is nothing to argue about.

    -Jeff
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  19. TopTop #19
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    In one mans opinion, it doesn’t matter if it's man made or a natural reoccurring cycle, were all going to get wet! We need to prepare for this it is coming. We can whine all we want, that isn’t going to stop us from getting wet! Just like a squirrel prepares for winter gathering all it’s nuts and berries, there are things we can do for the whole, slowly draw back from the oceans to a safe distance. Move back from rivers and streams that are going to see double or triple the rainfall in the coming seasons. Focus all our energies into prevention of disasters for mankind and work as a team to prepare instead on playing the blame game… soooo annoying and stupid!!!
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  20. TopTop #20
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Yes the blame game! Preparation is our only chance clanc

    Quote Clancy wrote: View Post
    If it were naturally occuring, there'd be nothing we could do about it, and that's what the oil industry wants us to think.

    The fact is that it's due to greenhouse gases being released by humanity, so there's obviously things we can do about it, but it means making some big changes.
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  21. TopTop #21
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote d-cat wrote: View Post
    Global Warming Doomsday Called Off (Canada)
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...10462407994295

    The Great Global Warming Swindle (UK)
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...10842208417568

    Climate Catastrophe Cancelled: What You're Not Being Told (Canada)
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...13209160533271

    Green House Conspiracy (Australia)
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...34802461518010
    Some coverage on US television on the subject:

    20/20 Stossel- GMAB - Al Gore Global Warming Debate
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...62744733742246


    .
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  22. TopTop #22
    Zeno Swijtink's Avatar
    Zeno Swijtink
     

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote d-cat wrote: View Post
    Some coverage on US television on the subject:

    20/20 Stossel- GMAB - Al Gore Global Warming Debate
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...62744733742246


    .
    I don't like videos on complicated topic like this. Esp. when they seem to be the only sources you marshall to support your point of view.

    They have no footnotes that allow you to do follow-up on claims. They have no dates when they were created. They pass by quickly without you having the opportunity to take in and ponder ideas and information.

    [The Gore film came at least with a book with transcript and references.]

    Why do you guys base your views always on videos?? Don't you know how to read?

    I think the most interesting website on global climate change, both because of the scientists who contribute, the references to peer reviewed literature, and the comments from the lay public, is

    https://www.realclimate.com

    For instance, about the "Hockey Stick" graph see

    https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...switch_lang/fr
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  23. TopTop #23
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote Zeno Swijtink wrote: View Post
    I don't like videos on complicated topic like this. Esp. when they seem to be the only sources you marshall to support your point of view.

    I don't really have a concrete opinion on the subject one way or another. The 'global warming is man-made and we must tax you' argument gets a lot of press; I post here the other view that doesn't get much fair press coverage by mainstream corporate media. I do find the close-mindedness of some people here on the subject very interesting.


    Quote Zeno Swijtink wrote: View Post
    Why do you guys base your views always on videos?? Don't you know how to read?
    Yes, I know how to read. Do you know how to read threads? If you did, you would have seen that there are many articles on this thread. Including ones about other planets experiencing warming.

    Quote Zeno Swijtink wrote: View Post
    I think the most interesting website on global climate change, both because of the scientists who contribute, the references to peer reviewed literature, and the comments from the lay public, is

    https://www.realclimate.com

    For instance, about the "Hockey Stick" graph see

    https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...switch_lang/fr
    Thanks for the links. If you haven't yet, try watching one of the documentaries posted here for a different explanation and see what other scientists have to say about the hockey stick. That is, if you have an open and curious mind.
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  24. TopTop #24
    Zeno Swijtink's Avatar
    Zeno Swijtink
     

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote d-cat wrote: View Post
    I don't really have a concrete opinion on the subject one way or another. The 'global warming is man-made and we must tax you' argument gets a lot of press; I post here the other view that doesn't get much fair press coverage by mainstream corporate media. I do find the close-mindedness of some people here on the subject very interesting.

    Yes, I know how to read. Do you know how to read threads? If you did, you would have seen that there are many articles on this thread. Including ones about other planets experiencing warming.

    Thanks for the links. If you haven't yet, try watching one of the documentaries posted here for a different explanation and see what other scientists have to say about the hockey stick. That is, if you have an open and curious mind.
    I am sorry, and I need to apologize: I missed some of the written articles you have referred to in this thread.

    The scientific issues around long term climate are very complicated and the main tool that integrates the many factor that determine future climate development, computer modeling, makes climate theory into a science unlike anything we have seen before: highly complex and multidisciplinary.

    The stakes are high: our society is in a "carbon lock-in" (Gregory Unruh's term) and to reverse our near total dependency on fossil fuels will take an enormous effort. On the other hand fossil fuel use has caused many negativities: from lung disease to environmental collapse to population explosion (thru fertilizers used in food production). It has also created unprecedented wealth and prosperity for us. Can we preserve our prosperity, have the billions of poor and destitute people in the world increase their prosperity, and phase out our dependency on fossil fuels in a manner that is democratic and does not depend on topdown, draconic, and dictatorial measures?

    How is someone like you, who may not have expertise in any of the scientific fields that make up this multidisciplinary science, but who wants to form his own opinion about the validity of it all, to proceed?

    If you have not done so I suggest that you start with a general book on the aspects of climate science. In my class at SSU called "Philosophical Problems of Global Climate Change" I use as required text

    John Houghton, Global Warming: the complete briefing, 3rd edition, Cambridge University Press, 2004

    My course covers epistemological and ethical issues, such as "What kind of science is this? How does it compare with other sciences? Given the complexities and uncertainties how can a lay person decide on a response? What are the moral issues involved and what stand is each of us taking in response to our studies?

    It is a challenge for me to teach this course in such a way that all students, independent of their personal opinions, feels comfortable to discuss the material and questions we raise in class.

    I also suggest that you depend less on the partisan articles and videos, either pro or con: they are mostly written by people with no expertise in the matter who approach the issues from a predetermined political point of view and who look for scientific, or what they think as scientific, papers that support their point of view. This goes against the basic principles of critical thinking where we always want to test our opinions against possible refutations.

    In the end though, as lay persons, we cannot check scientists completely in what they analyze, measure, etc. Some measure of depending on trust is unavoidable. I myself gravitate towards trusting scientific credentials and peer reviewed literature.
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  25. TopTop #25
    Willie Lumplump
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote d-cat wrote: View Post
    Some coverage on US television on the subject:

    20/20 Stossel- GMAB - Al Gore Global Warming Debate
    https://video.google.com/videoplay?d...2744733742246.
    In principle, every argument should be evaluated on its own merits, but just for your information, Stossel is a notoriously unreliable propagandist for right-wing causes.
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  26. TopTop #26
    Willie Lumplump
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote d-cat wrote: View Post
    I don't really have a concrete opinion on the subject one way or another.
    You don't have a concrete opinion about a claim that is supported by the entire world community of professional climatologists? Are you reserving judgment until you hear from all the CEO's of the major oil corporations and their hirelings who try to pass themselves off as legitimate scientists?
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  27. TopTop #27
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote Willie Lumplump wrote: View Post
    You don't have a concrete opinion about a claim that is supported by the entire world community of professional climatologists?
    that's one of the things in question Willie. That's one of the things people are saying is not true. You may be convinced but I'm watching what both sides have to say.

    Quote Willie Lumplump wrote: View Post
    Are you reserving judgment until you hear from all the CEO's of the major oil corporations and their hirelings who try to pass themselves off as legitimate scientists?
    no
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  28. TopTop #28
    Willie Lumplump
    Guest

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote d-cat wrote: View Post
    that's one of the things in question Willie. That's one of the things people are saying is not true. You may be convinced but I'm watching what both sides have to say.
    The word "sides" is the trick part of your sentence. It is true that there are two sides to every question. One side thinks that the world was created 4.2 billion years ago, while another side thinks it was created in 4004 B.C. One side thinks that germs cause disease, while another side thinks that disease is caused by sin. One side thinks that rape is a crime against women, while another side thinks that generally women are responsible for their own rape by tempting men beyond their limits of self-control. My point is that the willingness to impartially consider both sides of a question is not necessarily a sign of a rational mind. In fact, the opposite may be true. If you could present a list of respected climatologists who disbelieve in global warming, there would be two sides to consider. But if all you've got to go on is a list of hirelings of the petroleum industry whose job it is to misconstrue the findings of legitimate scientists, then keeping an open mind is not a good sign. In fact, it is a very bad sign. Let's take a specific case. James M. Taylor has been in the news a lot recently "debunking" global warming. Who is he? What are his academic credentials? Who pays his salary? What are his professional affiliations? What research papers has he published and in which refereed journals? Or maybe your own professional credentials qualify you to analyze the data yourself so that you don't even need to depend on the opinions of internationally recognized experts?
    Last edited by Willie Lumplump; 11-27-2007 at 12:03 AM. Reason: clean up stray word
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  29. TopTop #29
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    d-cat, what is your personal aim with this thread?

    Why did you start it?

    What behaviors would you like to see changed as a result of Waccobb members reading what you're posting here?

    What do you stand to gain by us changing our behaviors in these ways?

    Thanks,

    -Jeff
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  30. TopTop #30
    Zeno Swijtink's Avatar
    Zeno Swijtink
     

    Re: Global Warming Fraud?

    Quote Braggi wrote: View Post
    d-cat, what is your personal aim with this thread?

    Why did you start it?

    What behaviors would you like to see changed as a result of Waccobb members reading what you're posting here?

    What do you stand to gain by us changing our behaviors in these ways?

    Thanks,

    -Jeff
    I don't want to talk for d-cat, but what I see happening with some people is this:

    For a long time, we have been campaigning to get the attention from the public and from the politicians for global climate change. Some people started working on this more then twenty years ago.

    We complained that the "mainstream" media did not cover this, or covered it as a controversy between two groups of scientists. All the time the urgency of lowering green house gas emissions became more and more a very pressing problem in the eyes of scientists and environmentalists.

    Now the situation has changed dramatically and the government - especially here in California - and the media have started to give a lot of attention to the issue, causes, consequences, what can be done about it, how, where, when.

    This attention in the press has gotten the attention of a new group of people who had not been following the problem. Some of these people are suspicious of "corporate," or "mainstream media," many have a libertarian or anarchists leaning.

    They are rightly upset since the most obvious "solutions" to slow down or reverse global warming seem to be topdown and dictatorial. Successful action in this area seems to reduce freedom and individual choice.

    So we need these people to come up with other solutions. Unfortunately many of them have chosen to deny human caused climate change or believe nothing can be done about in.
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