Sex and Christians

[dw41552]

Butch, you must have written your last post in anger, you even left out God Bless.
I have not mocked you, even though you might feel this way, I only questioned the foundation of your beliefs.
I can tell that it's hard for you to swallow that there are people who have a different interpretation of the bible.
Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)
Most people don't take the bible literally since this leads to extremism and misinterpretation. (see your sample above)
We're all struggling to become a better person, on a daily basis.
I'm glad to hear that you are convinced that you will end up in heaven, whatever that may be and wherever that may be.
Take care.

MsTerry I humbly apologize. Please forgive me! Like I said before I'm a work in progress. You're right! I do get frustrated. Believe it or not I really do care about people. Before I was Born again I cared for no one but myself except for my son. Since then God has taught me that loving others is putting their needs before my own, and expect nothing in return. And I want everyone to know the peace I know now compared to what I knew before, to be able to love like never before. In the past I would have told everyone here who disagreed with me to F off and never wrote another post. Shoot For that matter I would have never even responded to this Web site. Today I work as a volunteer with street kids and I love it and it has become a huge passion of mine. A few years ago these kids were nothing but punks to me, but God has shown me, I am them, and they are me, by reminding me how it felt to be abused and abandoned just like them. Jesus is turning me into someone He can use to help these kids. Imagine taking a macho, egotistical, screwed up, fight at the drop of a hat, 6'- 4" 300lb. bully like I was, and turning me into what the kids call me, a big old teddy bear. Those Kids I used to write off I love to death. I could not have gotten to where I am, without Jesus. I promise you, I did not get here on my own. I spent most of my life fighting Him, but He won and I thank God He did. I was a broken man and Jesus picked me up out of the gutter and cleaned me up and now he uses me to give those broken kids what they are all looking for and that is love, someone to be there for them, and I can't imagine a better purpose for my life. Sorry I didn't mean to rattle on. It's just really hard to keep these kinds of emotions to myself.

As far as when the 27 books of the new testament were written and by who, this is my understanding. These are approximate dates when they were written, in order, and the author.

James - 45 - 48 AD by James, believed to be the half brother Of Jesus.
The Gospel of Mathew - 50 AD by the Apostle Matthew.
Thessalonians 1 & 2 - 50 - 54 AD by The Apostle Paul These were actually letters to the Thessalonians from Paul.
Corinthians 1 - 54 - 55 AD by the Apostle Paul. This is actually the second letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The first one was lost.
Corinthians 2 - 56 - 57 AD by the Apostle Paul. This is actually the fourth letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The third one was also lost.
Romans - 57 - 58 AD by the Apostle Paul. Physically written by Tertias, dictated by Paul.
The Gospel of Mark - 57 - 59 AD by Mark an associate of the Apostle Peter.
The Gospel of Luke - 58 - 60 AD by Doctor Luke, a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul.
Ephesians - 60 AD by the Apostle Paul.
Colossians - 60 - 61 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Philippians - 61 - 62 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Philemon - 62 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Acts - 60 - 62 AD by Doctor Luke.
1, 2, and 3 John - 60 - 65 AD by the Apostle John.
1 Timothy and Titus - 63 - 66 AD by the Apostle Paul.
1 Peter - 64 AD by the Apostle Peter.
2 Peter - 64 - 68 AD by the Apostle Peter.
2 Timothy - 67 AD by the Apostle Paul. His last letter.
Hebrews - 68 - 69 AD Author unknown. Many believe it was Barnabas, another of Apostle Paul's traveling companions.
Jude - 67 - 80 AD by Jude, also believed to be a half brother of Jesus.
The Gospel of John - 85 - 95 AD by the Apostle John.
Revelations - 95 - 96 AD by the Apostle John the only Apostle to die a natural death. The rest were all martyred.

Andrew: Crucified.
Bartholomew: Crucified.
James, son of Alphaeus: Crucified.
James, son of Zebedee: Death by the sword.
Matthew: Death by the sword.
Peter: Crucified upside-down at his own request (he did not feel worthy to be crucified in the same manner as the Lord).
Philip: Crucified.
Simon the Zealot: Crucified.
Thaddaeus: Death by arrows.
Thomas: Death by a spear thrust.

As you can see most of the New Testament was in fact written by the Apostles, and all of it was written Within the first hundred years AD.

Most people don't take the bible literally since this leads to extremism and misinterpretation.

The world is full of extremism. We are surrounded by it, bombarded with it daily. It takes extremism to wake us up, especially considering how extremely stubborn we are. The misinterpretations come from a lack of faith and trying to interpret with ones own understanding. In other words it is my faith that gives me understanding. I didn't get hardly anything the bible said until my desire to understand was sincere, and I was willing to open my mind to God to help me get what I was reading. Now I see the beauty of Jesus words and how perfect they are. If we were to live our lives according to how the New Testament tells us to, this world would be an absolute paradise. But it's us living outside of God's will that makes this a hell on earth.

We're all struggling to become a better person, on a daily basis

I wish that were true MsTerry believe me, but I have to disagree. Most people stumble through life not having a clue why they're here or what their purpose is because most don't care. This has become a narcissistic society. We grow and move forward scientifically and technologically, but we go backwards mentally and emotionally. The world is not becoming a better place. It's become a dangerous, scary place. I remember the day you could send your 10 year old kid to the grocery store and not have to worry whether or not he would be safe. Shoot today I worry every time my 17 year old son walks out the door. Parental stress over the safety of their children is ten fold from when I was a kid. When I became old enough to understand, I was able to see pride and love of this country. Now all I see is whining and complaining and no body willing to do anything about it. When our country was attacked at Pearl harbor and we lost 3000 of our fellow countrymen, people flooded the recruiting stations in droves so they could do their part to protect our freedom. They couldn't get signed up fast enough because they put their country first. After the killing of 3000 of our fellow countrymen in 9/11 the recruiting stations actually saw a drop in recruiting. People just don't care about this country or their neighbors like we did 40, 50 years ago. Our world is on the brink of self annihilation because we've lost the desire to put others before ourselves, to look out and stand up for those around us, to lend a helping hand, and we've lost these because we've lost our faith.

I'm glad to hear that you are convinced that you will end up in heaven, whatever that may be and wherever that may be.

I'm convinced it's there for you too, and I hope some day you'll be as convinced as I am
God bless

[MsTerry]

I don't know about you but I have never ever heard of anyone else, or know anyone who's heard of anyone else being perfect and who never commited a sin except Jesus.

I forgot to show you this,
Conception and birth


Maya Devi Temple in Lumbini, Nepal.



Birth of Buddha at Lumbini. Picture of a painting in a Laotian Temple.


Siddhartha was born in Lumbini^[7] and raised in the small kingdom or principality of Kapilvastu, both of which are in modern day Nepal. At the time of the Buddha's birth, the area was at or beyond the boundary of Vedic civilization; it is even possible that his mother tongue was not an Indo-Aryan language.^[8] His community does not seem to have had a caste system, and their society was not structured according to Brahminical theory. It was not a monarchy, and seems to have been structured either as an oligarchy, or as a form of republic.^[9] According to the traditional biography, however, his father was King Suddhodana, the chief of the Shakya nation, one of several ancient tribes in the growing state of Kosala; Gautama was the family name. His mother, Queen Maha Maya (Māyādevī) and Suddhodana's wife, was a Koliyan princess. On the night Siddhartha was conceived, Queen Maya dreamt that a white elephant with six white tusks entered her right side^[10], and ten lunar months later Siddhartha was born. As was the Shakya tradition, when his mother Queen Maya became pregnant, she left Kapilvastu for her father's kingdom to give birth. However, she gave birth on the way, at Lumbini, in a garden beneath a sal tree.
The day of the Buddha's birth is widely celebrated in Theravada countries as Vesak.^[11] Various sources hold that the Buddha's mother died at his birth, a few days or seven days later. The infant was given the name Siddhartha (Pāli: Siddhatta), meaning "he who achieves his aim". During the birth celebrations, the hermit seer Asita journeyed from his mountain abode and announced that the child would either become a great king (chakravartin) or a great holy man.^{[citation needed]} This occurred after Siddhartha placed his feet in Asita's hair and Asita examined the birthmarks. Suddhodarna held a naming ceremony on the fifth day, and invited eight brahmin scholars to read the future. All gave a dual prediction that the baby would either become a great king or a great holy man.^{[citation needed]} Kaundinya (Pali: Kondanna), the youngest, and later to be the first arahant, was the only one who unequivocally predicted that Siddhartha would become a Buddha.^[12]
While later tradition and legend characterized Śuddhodana as a hereditary monarch, the descendant of the Solar Dynasty of Ikṣvāku (Pāli: Okkāka), many scholars believe that Śuddhodana was the elected chief of a tribal confederacy.

Early life and marriage

Siddhartha, destined to a luxurious life as a prince, had three palaces (for seasonal occupation) especially built for him. His father, King Śuddhodana, wishing for Siddhartha to be a great king, shielded his son from religious teachings or knowledge of human suffering. Siddhartha was brought up by his mother's younger sister, Maha Pajapati.^[13]
As the boy reached the age of 16, his father arranged his marriage to Yaśodharā (Pāli: Yasodharā), a cousin of the same age. Though this is the traditional account, an early source casts doubt as to the historicity of his married life.^[14] According to the traditional account, in time, she gave birth to a son, Rahula. Siddhartha spent 29 years as a Prince in Kapilavastu. Although his father ensured that Siddhartha was provided with everything he could want or need, Siddhartha felt that material wealth was not the ultimate goal of life.^[13]

Departure and Ascetic Life


The Great Departure. Gandhara, 2nd century CE.


At the age of 29, Siddhartha left his palace in order to meet his subjects. Despite his father's effort to remove the sick, aged and suffering from the public view, Siddhartha was said to have seen an old man. Disturbed by this, when told that all people would eventually grow old by his charioteer Channa, the prince went on further trips where he encountered, variously, a diseased man, a decaying corpse, and an ascetic. Deeply depressed by these sights, he sought to overcome old age, illness, and death by living the life of an ascetic.
Siddhartha escaped his palace, accompanied by Channa aboard his horse Kanthaka, leaving behind this royal life to become a mendicant. It is said that, "the horse's hooves were muffled by the gods"^[15] to prevent guards from knowing the Bodhisatta's departure. This event is traditionally called "The Great Departure".

The Buddha as an ascetic. Gandhara, 2-3rd century CE. British Museum.


Siddhartha initially went to Rajagaha and began his ascetic life by begging for alms in the street. Having been recognised by the men of King Bimbisara, Bimbisara offered him the throne after hearing of Siddhartha's quest. Siddhartha rejected the offer, but promised to visit his kingdom of Magadha first, upon attaining enlightenment.
Siddhartha left Rajagaha and practised under two hermit teachers. After mastering the teachings of Alara Kalama (Skr. Ārāḍa Kālāma), Siddhartha was asked by Kalama to succeed him, but moved on after being unsatisfied with his practices. He then became a student of Udaka Ramaputta (Skr. Udraka Rāmaputra), but although he achieved high levels of meditative consciousness and was asked to succeed Ramaputta, he was still not satisfied with his path, and moved on.^[16]

Gandhara Buddha. 1st–2nd century CE, Tokyo National Museum.


Siddhartha and a group of five companions led by Kondanna then set out to take their austerities even further. They tried to find enlightenment through near total deprivation of worldly goods, including food, practising self-mortification. After nearly starving himself to death by restricting his food intake to around a leaf or nut per day, he collapsed in a river while bathing and almost drowned. Siddhartha began to reconsider his path. Then, he remembered a moment in childhood in which he had been watching his father start the season's plowing, and he had fallen into a naturally concentrated and focused state that was blissful and refreshing, the jhana.

Enlightenment


Prince Siddhartha Gautama or Supreme Buddha.


After asceticism and concentrating on meditation and Anapana-sati (awareness of breathing in and out), Siddhartha is said to have discovered what Buddhists call the Middle Way—a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence and self-mortification. He accepted a little milk and rice pudding from a village girl named Sujata, who wrongly believed him to be the spirit that had granted her a wish, such was his emaciated appearance. Then, sitting under a pipal tree, now known as the Bodhi tree in Bodh Gaya, India, he vowed never to arise until he had found the Truth. Kaundinya and the other four companions, believing that he had abandoned his search and become undisciplined, left. After 49 days meditating, at the age of 35, he attained Enlightenment; according to some traditions, this occurred approximately in the fifth lunar month, and according to others in the twelfth. Gautama, from then on, was known as the Buddha or "Awakened One." Buddha is also sometimes translated as "The Enlightened One." Often, he is referred to in Buddhism as Shakyamuni Buddha or "The Awakened One of the Shakya Clan."
At this point, he is believed to have realized complete awakening and insight into the nature and cause of human suffering which was ignorance, along with steps necessary to eliminate it. This was then categorized into 'Four Noble Truths'; the state of supreme liberation—possible for any being—was called Nirvana. He then allegedly came to possess the Nine Characteristics, which are said to belong to every Buddha.
According to one of the stories in the Āyācana Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya VI.1), a scripture found in the Pāli and other canons, immediately after his Enlightenment, the Buddha was wondering whether or not he should teach the Dharma to human beings. He was concerned that, as human beings were overpowered by greed, hatred and delusion, they would not be able to see the true dharma, which was subtle, deep and hard to understand. However, Brahmā Sahampati, interceded and asked that he teach the dharma to the world, as "there will be those who will understand the Dharma". With his great compassion to all beings in the universe, the Buddha agreed to become a teacher.

Formation of the sangha


Painting of the first sermon depicted at Wat Chedi Liem in Thailand.


After becoming enlightened, two merchants whom the Buddha met, named Tapussa and Bhallika became the first lay disciples. They are given some hairs from the Buddha's head, which are believed to now be enshrined in the Shwe Dagon Temple in Rangoon, Burma. The Buddha intended to visit Asita, and his former teachers, Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta to explain his findings, but they had already died.
The Buddha thus journeyed to Deer Park near Vārāṇasī (Benares) in northern India, he set in motion the Wheel of Dharma by delivering his first sermon to the group of five companions with whom he had previously sought enlightenment. They, together with the Buddha, formed the first saṅgha, the company of Buddhist monks, and hence, the first formation of Triple Gem (Buddha, Dharma and Sangha) was completed, with Kaundinya becoming the first stream-enterer. All five soon become arahants, and with the conversion of Yasa and fifty four of his friends, the number of arahants swelled to 60 within the first two months. The conversion of the three Kassapa brothers and their 200, 300 and 500 disciples swelled the sangha over 1000, and they were dispatched to explain the dharma to the populace.
It is unknown what language the Buddha spoke, and no conclusive documentation has been made at this point. However, some modern scholars, primarily philologists, believe it is most likely that the Buddha spoke a vulgate then current in eastern India, Mâgadhî Prakrit.

Travels and teaching


Gautama Buddha with his protector Vajrapani (here holding a flywisk). Gandhara, 2nd century CE.


For the remaining 45 years of his life, the Buddha is said to have traveled in the Gangetic Plain, in what is now Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and southern Nepal, teaching his doctrine and discipline to an extremely diverse range of people— from nobles to outcaste street sweepers, mass murderers such as Angulimala and cannibals such as Alavaka. This extended to many adherents of rival philosophies and religions. The Buddha founded the community of Buddhist monks and nuns (the Sangha) to continue the dispensation after his Parinirvāna (Pāli: Parinibbāna) or "complete Nirvāna", and made thousands of converts. His religion was open to all races and classes and had no caste structure. He was also subject to attack from opposition religious groups, including attempted murders and framings.

A Tang Dynasty (618–907 AD) Chinese silk landscape painting depicting the young Sakyamuni shaving his head. This is one of the earliest visual presentations of the Gautama Buddha in the history of painting


The sangha travelled from place to place in India, expounding the dharma. This occurred throughout the year, except during the four months of the vassana rainy season. Due to the heavy amount of flooding, travelling was difficult, and ascetics of all religions in that time did not travel, since it was more difficult to do so without stepping on submerged animal life, unwittingly killing them. During this period, the sangha would retreat to a monastery, public park or a forest and people would come to them.
The first vassana was spent at Varanasi when the sangha was first formed. After this, he travelled to Rajagaha, the capital of Magadha to visit King Bimbisara, in accordance with his promise after enlightenment. It was during this visit that Sariputta and Mahamoggallana were converted by Assaji, one of the first five disciples; they were to become the Buddha's two foremost disciples. The Buddha then spent the next three seasons at Veluvana Bamboo Grove monastery in Rajagaha, the capital of Magadha. The monastery, which was of a moderate distance from the city centre was donated by Bimbisara.
Upon hearing of the enlightenment, Suddhodana dispatched royal delegations to ask the Buddha to return to Kapilavastu. Nine delegations were sent in all, but the delegates joined the sangha and became arahants. Neglecting worldly matters, they did not convey their message. The tenth delegation, led by Kaludayi, a childhood friend, resulted in the message being successfully conveyed as well as becoming an arahant. Since it was not the vassana, the Buddha agreed, and two years after his enlightenment, took a two month journey to Kapilavastu by foot, preaching the dharma along the way. Upon his return, the royal palace had prepared the midday meal, but since no specific invitation had come, the sangha went for an alms round in Kapilavastu. Hearing this, Suddhodana hastened to approach the Buddha, stating "Ours is the warrior lineage of Mahamassata, and not a single warrior has gone seeking alms", to which the Buddha replied

That is not the custom of your royal lineage. But it is the custom of my Buddha lineage. Several thousands of Buddhas have gone by seeking alms

Suddhodana invited the sangha back to the royal palace for the meal, followed by a dharma talk, after which he became a sotapanna. During the visit, many members of the royal family joined the sangha. His cousins Ananda and Anuruddha were to become two of his five chief disciples. His son Rahula also joined the sangha at the age of seven, and was one of the ten chief disciples. His half-brother Nanda also joined the sangha and became an arahant. Another cousin Devadatta also became a monk although he later became an enemy and tried to kill the Buddha on multiple occasions.
Of his disciples, Sariputta, Mahamoggallana, Mahakasyapa, Ananda and Anuruddha comprised the five chief disciples. His ten foremost disciples were completed by the quintet of Upali, Subhoti, Rahula, Mahakaccana and Punna.
In the fifth vassana, the Buddha was staying at Mahavana near Vesali. Hearing of the impending death of Suddhodana, the Buddha went to his father and preached the dharma, and Suddhodana became an arahant prior to death. The death and cremation led to the creation of the order of nuns. Buddhist texts record that he was reluctant to ordain women as nuns. His foster mother Maha Pajapati approached him asking to join the sangha, but the Buddha refused, and began the journey from Kapilavastu back to Rajagaha. Maha Pajapati was so intent on renouncing the world that she led a group of royal Sakyan and Koliyan ladies, following the sangha to Rajagaha. The Buddha eventually accepted them five years after the formation of the Sangha on the grounds that their capacity for enlightenment was equal to that of men, but he gave them certain additional rules (Vinaya) to follow. This occurred after Ananda interceded on their behalf. Yasodhara also became a nun, with both becoming arahants.

Devadatta tries to attack the Buddha. Picture of a wallpainting in a Laotian monastery.


During his ministry, Devadatta (who was not an arahant) frequently tried to undermine the Buddha. At one point Devadatta asked the Buddha to stand aside to let him lead the sangha. The Buddha declined, and stated that Devadatta's actions did not reflect on the Triple Gem, but on him alone. Devadatta conspired with Prince Ajatasattu, son of Bimbisara, so that they would kill and usurp the Buddha and Bimbisara respectively. Devadatta attempted three times to kill the Buddha. The first attempt involved the hiring of a group of archers, whom upon meeting the Buddha became disciples. A second attempt followed when Devadatta attempted to roll a large boulder down a hill. It hit another rock and splintered, only grazing the Buddha in the foot. A final attempt by plying an elephant with alcohol and setting it loose again failed. Failing this, Devadatta attempted to cause a schism in the sangha, by proposing extra restrictions on the vinaya. When the Buddha declined, Devadatta started a breakaway order, criticising the Buddha's laxity. At first, he managed to convert some of the bhikkhus, but Sariputta and Mahamoggallana expounded the dharma to them and succeeded in winning them back.
When the Buddha reached the age of 55, he made Ananda his chief attendant.

Death / Mahaparinirvana


An artist`s portrayal of Buddha's entry into Parinirvana.


According to the Mahaparinibbana Sutta of the Pali canon, at the age of 80, the Buddha announced that he would soon reach Parinirvana or the final deathless state abandoning the earthly body. After this, the Buddha ate his last meal, which he had received as an offering from a blacksmith named Cunda. Falling violently ill, Buddha instructed his attendant Ānanda to convince Cunda that the meal eaten at his place had nothing to do with his passing and that his meal would be a source of the greatest merit as it provided the last meal for a Buddha.^[17] The precise contents of the Buddha's final meal are not clear, due to variant scriptural traditions and ambiguity over the translation of certain significant terms; the Theravada tradition generally believes that the Buddha was offered some kind of pork, while the Mahayana tradition believes that the Buddha consumed some sort of truffle or other mushroom.
The Mahayana Vimalakirti Sutra claims, in Chapter 3, that the Buddha doesn't really become ill or old but purposely presents such an appearance only to teach those born into samsara about the impermanence and pain of defiled worlds and to encourage them to strive for Nirvana.

"Reverend Ánanda, the Tathágatas have the body of the Dharma—not a body that is sustained by material food. The Tathágatas have a transcendental body that has transcended all mundane qualities. There is no injury to the body of a Tathágata, as it is rid of all defilements. The body of a Tathágata is uncompounded and free of all formative activity. Reverend Ánanda, to believe there can be illness in such a body is irrational and unseemly!' Nevertheless, since the Buddha has appeared during the time of the five corruptions, he disciplines living beings by acting lowly and humble."[14]

Ananda protested Buddha's decision to enter Parinirvana in the abandoned jungles of Kuśināra (present-day Kushinagar, India) of the Malla kingdom. Buddha, however, reminded Ananda how Kushinara was a land once ruled by a righteous wheel-turning king that resounded with joy:

44. Kusavati, Ananda, resounded unceasingly day and night with ten sounds—the trumpeting of elephants, the neighing of horses, the rattling of chariots, the beating of drums and tabours, music and song, cheers, the clapping of hands, and cries of "Eat, drink, and be merry!"

The sharing of the relics of the Buddha.


Buddha then asked all the attendant Bhikshus to clarify any doubts or questions they had. They had none. He then finally entered Parinirvana. The Buddha's final words were, "All composite things pass away. Strive for your own liberation with diligence." The Buddha's body was cremated and the relics were placed in monuments or stupas, some of which are believed to have survived until the present. For example, The Temple of the Tooth or "Dalada Maligawa" in Sri Lanka is the place where the relic of the right tooth of Buddha is kept at present.
According to the Pāli historical chronicles of Sri Lanka, the Dīpavaṃsa and Mahāvaṃsa, the coronation of Aśoka (Pāli: Asoka) is 218 years after the death of Buddha. According to one Mahayana record in Chinese (十八部論 and 部執異論), the coronation of Aśoka is 116 years after the death of Buddha. Therefore, the time of Buddha's passing is either 486 BCE according to Theravāda record or 383 BCE according to Mahayana record. However, the actual date traditionally accepted as the date of the Buddha's death in Theravāda countries is 544 or 543 BCE, because the reign of Aśoka was traditionally reckoned to be about 60 years earlier than current estimates.
At his death, the Buddha told his disciples to follow no leader, but to follow his teachings (dharma). However, at the First Buddhist Council, Mahakasyapa was held by the sangha as their leader, with the two chief disciples Mahamoggallana and Sariputta having died before the Buddha.

[MsTerry]

New Testament manuscripts


Folio 65v from Codex Alexandrinus contains the Gospel of Luke with decorative tailpiece.


The New Testament has been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work, having over 5,700 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian. The dates of these manuscripts range from the 2nd century up to the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. The vast majority of these manuscripts date after the 10th century.
When one compares one manuscript to another, with the exception of the smallest fragments, no two copies agree completely in their wording throughout the comparable manuscript (keep in mind that if one compares a one page manuscript to a ten page manuscript and there is one misspelling of a place name, then it disqualifies exactitude in wording). There has been an estimate of between 200,000 and 300,000 variations among all the manuscripts (from the 2nd to 15th century) which is more variations than words in the New Testament. Though, this is unreliable because it is a comparison of texts across linguistic boundaries. More realistic estimates focus on comparing texts grouped by language and then making comparisons. When this is done, the numbers are vastly smaller. By the far, the vast majority of these are accidental errors made by scribes, and easily identified as such: an omitted word, a duplicate line, a misspelling, a rearrangement of words. On occasion, though, some variations involve apparently intentional changes, which can make it more difficult for scholars to determine whether they were corrections from better exemplars, harmonizations or ideologically motivated.^[3] Paleography is the study of ancient writing, and textual criticism is the study of manuscripts in order to reconstruct a probable original text.
The difficulty, in all of this, though is in where the manuscripts are coming from. Oftentimes, especially in monasteries, a manuscript cache is little more than a manuscript recycling center where imperfect and incomplete copies of manuscripts were placed while the monastery or scriptorium decided what to do with them. ^[4] There were several options on what to do with these unwanted and mistake laden manuscripts. The first was to simply "wash" the manuscript and reuse it later on for something else; this was very common in the ancient world and even up into the Middle Ages and is known as a palimpsest, the most famous of these being the Archimedes Palimpsest. If this was not done within a short period of time after the papyri was made, then washing it was less likely since the papyri might deteriorate and thus be unusable. If washing it was no longer an option, then the second and third options would be resorted to: the manuscripts could either be burned (since, containing the accepted words of Christ, the Apostles, and Prophets, Saints, etc. they were considered to have had a higher level of sanctity than secular literature ^[5] and burning them was considered more reverent than simply throwing them into the nearby garbage pit, although that was not unheard of as in the case of Oxyrhynchus 840). The third and final option was simply to leave them be what is known as a manuscript gravesite allowing time to deal with them. When scholars stumble upon manuscript caches, especially those found at Saint Catherine's Monastery in the Sinai (source of the Codex Sinaiticus), Saint Sabbas Monastery outside Bethlehem, and various other monasteries, they are not stumbling upon libraries, but of storehouses of rejected texts ^[6] (sometimes, strangely enough, kept in boxes or very back shelves in the libraries due to space constraints) which are unacceptable because of their scribal errors and contain corrections inside the lines ^[7] demonstrating that the scribes at the monastery were comparing it to what had to have been a master text. In addition, texts which were judged complete and correct and had deteriorated due to heavy usage and/or had missing folios for the same reason, etc. would also be placed in these caches. Once in a cache, insects and dampness due to nearby rivers, floods, and changes in weather patterns would oftentimes continued to deteriorate what was left. ^[8]
Complete and correctly copied texts would usually immediately be placed into use and thus usually wear out fairly quickly which would lead to their needing to be repeatedly copied. Further, because the copying of manuscripts was highly costly at the time, a manuscript would only be made when one was commissioned in which case the size of the parchment, script used, any illustrations (thus raising the price), whether it was one book or a collection of several, etc. would be determined by the one commissioning the work. The idea of stocking extra copies would probably have been considered at best wasteful and unnecessary since the form and a manuscript was more often than not customized to the aesthetic tastes of the buyer. This is the reason why scholars are more likely to stumble upon incomplete and at times conflicting segments of manuscripts rather than complete and largely consistent works. ^[9]
Distribution of Greek manuscripts by century ^[10]

	New Testament Manuscripts			Lectionaries
Century	Papyri	Uncials	Minuscules	Uncials	Minuscules
2nd	2	-	-	-	-
c. 200	4	-	-	-	-
2nd/3rd	1	1	-	-	-
3rd	28	2	-	-	-
3rd/4th	8	2	-	-	-
4th	14	14	-	1	-
4th/5th	8	8	-	-	-
5th	2	36	-	1	-
5th/6th	4	10	-	-	-
6th	7	51	-	3	-
6th/7th	5	5	-	1	-
7th	8	28	-	4	-
7th/8th	3	4	-	-	-
8th	2	29	-	22	-
8th/9th	-	4	-	5	-
9th	-	53	13	113	5
9th/10th	-	1	4	-	1
10th	-	17	124	108	38
10th/11th	-	3	8	3	4
11th	-	1	429	15	227
11th/12th	-	-	33	-	13
12th	-	-	555	6	486
12th/13th	-	-	26	-	17
13th	-	-	547	4	394
13th/14th	-	-	28	-	17
14th	-	-	511	-	308
14th/15th	-	-	8	-	2
15th	-	-	241	-	171
15th/16th	-	-	4	-	2
16th	-	-	136	-	194

Historic editions

See also: Biblical manuscript, Bible translations, and Textual criticism

The Codex Gigas from the 13th century, held at the Royal Library in Sweden.


When ancient scribes copied earlier books, they wrote notes on the margins of the page (marginal glosses) to correct their text—especially if a scribe accidentally omitted a word or line—and to comment about the text. When later scribes were copying the copy, they were sometimes uncertain if a note was intended to be included as part of the text. See textual criticism. Over time, different regions evolved different versions, each with its own assemblage of omissions and additions.
The autographs, the Greek manuscripts written by the original authors, have not survived. Scholars surmise the original Greek text from the versions that do survive. The three main textual traditions of the Greek New Testament are sometimes called the Alexandrian text-type (generally minimalist), the Byzantine text-type (generally maximalist), and the Western text-type (occasionally wild). Together they comprise most of the ancient manuscripts.
There are also several ancient translations, most important of which are in the Syriac dialect of Aramaic (including the Peshitta and the Diatessaron gospel harmony), in the Ethiopian language of Ge'ez, and in Latin (both the Vetus Latina and the Vulgate).
In 331, the Emperor Constantine commissioned Eusebius to deliver fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople. Athanasius (Apol. Const. 4) recorded Alexandrian scribes around 340 preparing Bibles for Constans. Little else is known, though there is plenty of speculation. For example, it is speculated that this may have provided motivation for canon lists, and that Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus are examples of these Bibles. Together with the Peshitta, these are the earliest extant Christian Bibles.^[15]
The earliest surviving complete manuscript of the entire Bible is the Codex Amiatinus, a Latin Vulgate edition produced in eighth century England at the double monastery of Wearmouth-Jarrow.
The earliest printed edition of the Greek New Testament appeared in 1516 from the Froben press, by Desiderius Erasmus, who reconstructed its Greek text from several recent manuscripts of the Byzantine text-type. He occasionally added a Greek translation of the Latin Vulgate for parts that did not exist in the Greek manuscripts. He produced four later editions of this text. Erasmus was Roman Catholic, but his preference for the Byzantine Greek manuscripts rather than the Latin Vulgate led some church authorities to view him with suspicion.
The first printed edition with critical apparatus (noting variant readings among the manuscripts) was produced by the printer Robert Estienne of Paris in 1550. The Greek text of this edition and of those of Erasmus became known as the Textus Receptus (Latin for "received text"), a name given to it in the Elzevier edition of 1633, which termed it as the text nunc ab omnibus receptum ("now received by all").
The churches of the Protestant Reformation translated the Greek of the Textus Receptus to produce vernacular Bibles, such as the German Luther Bible and the English King James Bible.
The discovery of older manuscripts, which belong to the Alexandrian text-type, including the 4th century Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, led scholars to revise their view about the original Greek text. Attempts to reconstruct the original text are called critical editions. Karl Lachmann based his critical edition of 1831 on manuscripts dating from the 4th century and earlier, to demonstrate that the Textus Receptus must be corrected according to these earlier texts.
Later critical editions incorporate ongoing scholarly research, including discoveries of Greek papyrus fragments from near Alexandria, Egypt, that date in some cases within a few decades of the original New Testament writings.^[16] Today, most critical editions of the Greek New Testament, such as UBS4 and NA27, consider the Alexandrian text-type corrected by papyri, to be the Greek text that is closest to the original autographs. Their apparatus includes the result of votes among scholars, ranging from certain {A} to doubtful {E}, on which variants best preserve the original Greek text of the New Testament.
Most variants among the manuscripts are minor, such as alternate spelling, alternate word order, the presence or absence of an optional definite article ("the"), and so on. Occasionally, a major variant happens when a portion of a text was accidentally omitted (or perhaps even censored), or was added from a marginal gloss. Fortunately, major variants tend to be easier to correct. Examples of major variants are the endings of Mark, the Pericope Adulteræ, the Comma Johanneum, and the Western version of Acts.
Critical editions that rely primarily on the Alexandrian text-type inform nearly all modern translations (and revisions of older translations).
However for reasons of tradition, especially the doctrine of the inerrancy of the King James Bible, some modern scholars prefer to use the Textus Receptus for the Greek text, or use the Majority Text which is similar to it but is a critical edition that relies on earlier manuscripts of the Byzantine text-type. Among these scholars, some argue that the Byzantine tradition contains scribal additions, but these later interpolations preserve the orthodox interpretations of the biblical text—as part of the ongoing Christian experience—and in this sense are authoritative.

As far as when the 27 books of the new testament were written and by who, this is my understanding. These are approximate dates when they were written, in order, and the author.

James - 45 - 48 AD by James, believed to be the half brother Of Jesus.
The Gospel of Mathew - 50 AD by the Apostle Matthew.
Thessalonians 1 & 2 - 50 - 54 AD by The Apostle Paul These were actually letters to the Thessalonians from Paul.
Corinthians 1 - 54 - 55 AD by the Apostle Paul. This is actually the second letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The first one was lost.
Corinthians 2 - 56 - 57 AD by the Apostle Paul. This is actually the fourth letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The third one was also lost.
Romans - 57 - 58 AD by the Apostle Paul. Physically written by Tertias, dictated by Paul.
The Gospel of Mark - 57 - 59 AD by Mark an associate of the Apostle Peter.
The Gospel of Luke - 58 - 60 AD by Doctor Luke, a traveling companion of the Apostle Paul.
Ephesians - 60 AD by the Apostle Paul.
Colossians - 60 - 61 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Philippians - 61 - 62 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Philemon - 62 AD by the Apostle Paul and Timothy.
Acts - 60 - 62 AD by Doctor Luke.
1, 2, and 3 John - 60 - 65 AD by the Apostle John.
1 Timothy and Titus - 63 - 66 AD by the Apostle Paul.
1 Peter - 64 AD by the Apostle Peter.
2 Peter - 64 - 68 AD by the Apostle Peter.
2 Timothy - 67 AD by the Apostle Paul. His last letter.
Hebrews - 68 - 69 AD Author unknown. Many believe it was Barnabas, another of Apostle Paul's traveling companions.
Jude - 67 - 80 AD by Jude, also believed to be a half brother of Jesus.
The Gospel of John - 85 - 95 AD by the Apostle John.
Revelations - 95 - 96 AD by the Apostle John the only Apostle to die a natural death. The rest were all martyred.

Andrew: Crucified.
Bartholomew: Crucified.
James, son of Alphaeus: Crucified.
James, son of Zebedee: Death by the sword.
Matthew: Death by the sword.
Peter: Crucified upside-down at his own request (he did not feel worthy to be crucified in the same manner as the Lord).
Philip: Crucified.
Simon the Zealot: Crucified.
Thaddaeus: Death by arrows.
Thomas: Death by a spear thrust.

As you can see most of the New Testament was in fact written by the Apostles, and all of it was written Within the first hundred years AD.

[mykil]

Mornings are alwayz a time to develop a thought pattern towards an eternity! I find the Christian path of enlightenment you are on totally boring. This is beneath me, maybe not everyone, but certainly me! Preaching the word of god is your only goal when you take the oath err allow Jesus in your heart. Why stop there? Why not try to evolve and find a way to make this world a better place. Why not include all religions and really have a go of it. Why segregation toward others? In my own eyes being a Christian is almost as wild and absurd ad saying you are a Jehovah whiteness!!! I have been a Christian for many years and I have seen the animosity toward other religions, “they are not right! There is only one god, one way to do things and it is our way, those other folks will not go to heaven only us good Christian's”! Scare tactics from hell if you as me! Who believes this shit anywayz, besides a gullible child??? IF you where all truly enlightened and as holy as you say, instead of preaching the word of god you might change this to the word of our oceans, our air or our planet instead of worshiping the almighty load Jesus, you might actually save our planet and our selves by doing it this way. You have a billion followers to mold, a billion people wasting time praising a fictional god when you can truly praise a real god, our world! IT is this religion alone that is destroying our planet, it is this religion alone that is narcissistic in that you only care about one thought pattern and screw the rest, if you cant convert you aint with us and we don't give a rats ass about you! Now if you where a real religion you would be provoking others to save our planet, god helps those who help themselves right!

When talking about Jesus the conversation alwayz turns to the book and quotes from the bible get into a heated arguments and everyone forgets the true meaning of our world and even what everyone is fighting about, as long as you are winning the fight and throwing those passages and praises toward one another right? Get into the 21^st century folks! I can’t even stomach reading most of the posts once the bible is brought into the picture, you lost me, if you want to communicate with people you might want to use your own brain or are you afraid to actually use it? That is what it is on your shoulders for, think of you own thoughts and write those down so we don’t have to go over the same old boring quotes that everyone has been using for millenniums well you, err can you? I truly don’t think you would have a leg to stand on if you didn’t have such passages stuck in your head, you truly need to use your mind and then you might actually evolve and find there is another world sitting right next to you, maybe a parallel universe to speak. Maybe something you might be missing? Maybe a better world after all! One that is not so conceded or shallow or all mighty toward one goal, that is to get you one your knees and pray for an egotistical god that you say even exists! Be warned my god can beat up your god and he is on his way!!! You might want to start worshiping me now…

[dw41552]

I forgot to show you this,
Conception and birth...

Let's see, no where does it say in this Wikepedia article that Buddha was sinless, (Perfect), that he performed even one miracle, and he's still dead and hasn't risen, so please, explain to me how Buddha comes even close to comparing to Jesus. Oh! And the most important fact of all is, Buddha didn't give his life for us all. He died from eating rotten food. You know what, when you're in line waiting to account for your life before Jesus, and you will face Him, make sure you look around because Buddha may be standing right behind you.

God Bless

[dw41552]

New Testament manuscripts...

This entire article and this list are talking about copies, not the originals. Even secular scholars agree that at least some of the books were indeed written by the Apostles, which means they would have to have been written during the first century AD. This totally refutes your statement below.

Your ststement: Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)

God Bless

[MsTerry]

This is what I wrote

The dates of these manuscripts range from the 2nd century up to the invention of the printing press in the 15th century.

Nothing about copies.
I like to see that link that proves a direct one to the anointed one.

This entire article and this list are talking about copies, not the originals. Even secular scholars agree that at least some of the books were indeed written by the Apostles, which means they would have to have been written during the first century AD. This totally refutes your statement below.

Your ststement: Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)

God Bless

[MsTerry]

Let's see, no where does it say in this Wikepedia article that Buddha was sinless, (Perfect), that he performed even one miracle, and he's still dead and hasn't risen, so please, explain to me how Buddha comes even close to comparing to Jesus. Oh! And the most important fact of all is, Buddha didn't give his life for us all. He died from eating rotten food. You know what, when you're in line waiting to account for your life before Jesus, and you will face Him, make sure you look around because Buddha may be standing right behind you.

You're getting judgmental again.
Buddha' life has been recorded from birth to death.
He gave up a life of wealth and privilege for poverty
Show me what sins he committed.
Jesus' life has BIG gaps, no one knows what sins he commited during that time.
Buddha decided to forgo Nirvana and instead traveled the country to share his teachings of life's suffering because of our attachments.
And you are right, just like Jesus, he CHOOSE his time of death.
Here you can read about his miracles
Miracles of Gautama Buddha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[dw41552]

This is what I wrote

Nothing about copies.
I like to see that link that proves a direct one to the anointed one.

MsTerry this article Which you got from Wikepedia is about the New Testament manuscripts, copies, and translations made from 200AD and on. It's not about when the original books were actually written or who the authors were. So it in no way proves your statement: Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)

Do you really believe that out of the 13 Apostles and the many others who followed Jesus during the three years of His ministry, that not one of them would wright about their experiences, what they heard, and what they saw.

Here's what Wickepedia says about when the New testament was written and by who, which you conveneintly left out.
Click on the blue: New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here's an article that backs my side. We can go back and forth like this for ever. Click on the blue: Wasn't the New Testament written hundreds of years after Christ? | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry.

God bless

[MsTerry]

Do you really believe that out of the 13 Apostles and the many others who followed Jesus during the three years of His ministry, that not one of them would wright about their experiences, what they heard, and what they saw.

there is no reference in the bible, whatsoever, that any of these poor working class apostles was literate.

Here's what Wickepedia says about when the New testament was written and by who, which you conveneintly left out.
Click on the blue: New Testament - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NO, Butch, it doesn't say who WROTE it, it says "traditionally ascribed to "
HUGE DIFFERENCE!!!
READ ON

Each of the Gospels narrates the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth. The traditional author is listed after each entry. Modern scholarship differs on precisely by whom, when, or in what original form the various gospels were written.

[dw41552]

MsTerry I didn't know you were Buddhist.

You're getting judgmental again.

I'm not judging him personally. I'm judging what he teaches. That I have a right to do.

Buddha' life has been recorded from birth to death.

Yes, and so is mine, what does that prove?

He gave up a life of wealth and privilege for poverty

Wealth never even entered Jesus mind, and He lived in poverty.

Show me what sins he committed.

He put more importance on his teachings than that of God's'. He lived according to his own will instead of God's. He led many people away from God.

Jesus' life has BIG gaps, no one knows what sins he commited during that time.

He is God and God being perfect means that Jesus had to be perfect, meaning it was impossible for Him to sin.

Buddha decided to forgo Nirvana and instead traveled the country to share his teachings of life's suffering because of our attachments.

Jesus not only traveled to teach a better way through Him but healed all the sick who believed in Him, rose people from the dead, fed thousands with just a few fish and loaves of bread twice, not to mention all the other miracles He performed. Then He gave His life for you, me, and Buddha. Buddha was asked by a woman to raise her child from death but only tried to convince her to except her childs death because he couldn't do it.

And you are right, just like Jesus, he CHOOSE his time of death.

Not so. Buddah was accidently poisened by some poisen mushrooms given to him by Cunda, a close friend of his. He did not choose to die this way or at the time he did. this is common Knowledge.


Here you can read about his miracles
Miracles of Gautama Buddha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I did, and these are a joke. I bet David Copperfield, or Chris Angel could perform any one of these tricks. I didn't see any healings, or rasing anyone from the dead, or feeding thousands from practically nothing. These tricks were probably to try and convince whoever supposedly saw them of his superiority. And the first supposed miracle says how he feels about himself.


It is said that immediately after the birth of Siddhartha Gautama, who later became known as The Buddha, he stood up, took seven steps north, and fearlessly uttered:
"Supreme am I in the world
Greatest am I in the world.
Noblest am I in the world.
This is my last birth,
Never shall I be reborn"

Sounds like he's pretty stuck on himself.

I got this rediculous piece of info from a Buddhist web site.

It is said that having sacred mantras on your computer works the same as a traditional prayer wheel. As the computer's hard disk spins thousands of times per hour, it sends out this peaceful prayer of Compassion to all directions and to all beings, purifying the area. As this prayer wheel spins, we pray compassionately for the liberation of all beings.

Have you put your mantras on your computer yet?

God bless

[MsTerry]

He is God and God being perfect means that Jesus had to be perfect, meaning it was impossible for Him to sin.

Butch, this pre-emptive statement is so utterly ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.
If Jesus is God, who was taking care of heaven while he is walking on earth?
Jesus was a mere mortal with all human emotions and pitfalls.

Wealth never even entered Jesus mind, and He lived in poverty.

I find it interesting that YOU know what entered Jesus' mind 2000 years ago.
Buddha was born into wealth, he did not seek it, he renounced it when he came into maturity.

I bet David Copperfield, or Chris Angel could perform any one of these tricks. I didn't see any healings, or rasing anyone from the dead, or feeding thousands from practically nothing. These tricks were probably to try and convince whoever supposedly saw them of his superiority. And the first supposed miracle says how he feels about himself.

I bet Chris and David could perform any of Jesus' tricks.
In fact Jesus was a copycat, Buddha walked on the water 400 years before him!

He put more importance on his teachings than that of God's'. He lived according to his own will instead of God's. He led many people away from God.

There was no NT or OT where he lived, 400 years BC.
He taught compassion and awareness, I guess you are trying to tell me these aren't chistian values.

[dw41552]

Butch, this pre-emptive statement is so utterly ridiculous, I don't know where to begin.
If Jesus is God, who was taking care of heaven while he is walking on earth?
Jesus was a mere mortal with all human emotions and pitfalls.

I find it interesting that YOU know what entered Jesus' mind 2000 years ago.
Buddha was born into wealth, he did not seek it, he renounced it when he came into maturity.
I bet Chris and David could perform any of Jesus' tricks.
In fact Jesus was a copycat, Buddha walked on the water 400 years before him!

There was no NT or OT where he lived, 400 years BC.
He taught compassion and awareness, I guess you are trying to tell me these aren't chistian values.

Look MsTerry if you want to worship Buddha that is your perogative. If you know for a fact that following Buddha will lead you to a better life and after life, I wish you all the luck in the world. I for one Choose God and His way. Obviously I'm never going to change your mind and you certainly won't change my mind, so I think we need to leave this right here. Regardless I still love ya!

God bless

[MsTerry]

MsTerry I didn't know you were Buddhist.

Butch, I don't think you knew Jesus studied and practiced Buddhist teachings. The reason I keep on mentioning the Lost Years of Jesus is the following'

Elmer R. Gruber, a psychologist, and Holger Kersten, a specialist in religious history claim that Buddhism had a substantial influence on the life and teachings of Jesus.^[1] Gruber and Kersten claim that Jesus was influenced by the teachings and practices of Therapeutae, teachers of the Buddhist Theravada school then living in the Bible lands. They assert that Jesus lived the life of a Buddhist and taught Buddhist ideals to his disciples; their work follows in the footsteps of the Oxford New Testament scholar' Barnett Hillman Streeter, who established as early as the 1930s that the moral teaching of the Buddha has four remarkable resemblances to the Sermon on the Mount.

As I said before, he imitated Buddha walking on the water.

[Dynamique]

This is no more ridiculous (note correct spelling of the word) than any other religious drivel and dogma.

Now would both of you pluh-eeese turn off your computers and go watch Maher's Religulous. Thank you!

I got this rediculous piece of info from a Buddhist web site.

It is said that having sacred mantras on your computer works the same as a traditional prayer wheel. As the computer's hard disk spins thousands of times per hour, it sends out this peaceful prayer of Compassion to all directions and to all beings, purifying the area. As this prayer wheel spins, we pray compassionately for the liberation of all beings.

Have you put your mantras on your computer yet?

God bless

[dw41552]

Butch, I don't think you knew Jesus studied and practiced Buddhist teachings. The reason I keep on mentioning the Lost Years of Jesus is the following'



As I said before, he imitated Buddha walking on the water.

Believe what you want to believe. I know better!!!

God bless

[dw41552]

This is no more ridiculous (note correct spelling of the word) than any other religious drivel and dogma.

Now would both of you pluh-eeese turn off your computers and go watch Maher's Religulous. Thank you!

Wow! I bow to your superior spelling skills mam. Now did that make you feel better about yourself? I hope so!

[Zeno Swijtink]

Tuning in, and then again out, of this tread, I now wonder how Christians experience their "sex." Why do they bother?

Christian women, why not opt for artificial insemination by semen from your own husband?

[MsTerry]

Believe what you want to believe. I know better!!!

Nonononononono Butch.
You base your thinking on faith not on research, so you don't know things better, you believe in things.
Here is some research for you, about how Jesus got his insights and knowledge.
The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa - Notovitch
Lost years of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ
The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ

let me know if you need more facts

[Dynamique]

No, but it made me feel better about the value of a spell-checker and a dictionary!

Wow! I bow to your superior spelling skills mam. Now did that make you feel better about yourself? I hope so!

[stiltbat]

Many recent studies indicate that Christian divorce rates are even or sometimes "much" higher than divorce rates of other faith-based groups. If staying married is one's ideal then one may want to consider other religious options. Also, it seems, that when divorced, a large percentage of Christians feel a sense of rejection by their community. I believe sex should be based on the individual's and/or the couple's or group's needs and desires not a set dogma. Stiltbat

[This thread was split off from https://www.waccobb.net/forums/conscious-relationship/51171-sex-sake-sex.html#post86482 ]

I'd love to give a response from a Christian view point. But first I must say, these are my beliefs like them or not. You have the choice to except or reject them that's up to each individual. Either way I just want everyone to know I do not feel superior to anyone. We are all equals. I'm just sharing what I believe with all my heart God has taught me.

I do not believe in fornication. In my opinion sleeping together just for the sake of sex, is just sex. I also believe God intended sex for two purposes, procreation and a reward for two people, a man and a woman who take the time to really get to know each other and fall truely in love without the distraction of sex, and then marry making a life time commitment to each other.

Oh, I can just hear it now. How ya gonna know if it's any good unless you take it for a test drive. I get this one all the time. We're not talking about a car here for crying out loud.

Let me explain it this way. I'm sure most all of you like cake right? My favorite is orange cake with orange icing. A man and a woman meet. They make a good first impression so they start dating. They've decided to refrain from sex as they are both Christians. In 18 months they have gotten to know each other inside and out and enjoy each other to the point of truely falling in love. They have baked the cake. The cake being the foundation for the next step, marriage. Now that they are married it's time to ice the cake. I don't like the word sex at this point, I like to think of it as, "making love" the icing on the cake. Now you can have the icing without the cake and it tastes pretty good, but it's just not the same as having a moist warm orange cake smothered with orange icing.

I truely believe if couples would instead of connecting at the hips first, connect first with their hearts and minds, the divorce rate wouldn't be near as high as it is. And don't forget, look what happens when people use sex for other than what God intended it for. Abortions, STDs, babies having babies, single moms, children being born to extreme poverty and dying from starvation, and the list goes on, none of which would happen if used God's way.

I have a question for every one. What percentage of marriages where sex was no longer a possibility would survive?

God bless

[dw41552]

Nonononononono Butch.
You base your thinking on faith not on research, so you don't know things better, you believe in things.
Here is some research for you, about how Jesus got his insights and knowledge.
The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa - Notovitch
Lost years of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ
The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ

let me know if you need more facts

Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes MsTerry!!! I may rely on my faith now that I know the truth, but before I came to that faith I did indeed do a ton of research. So you are wrong again. When I finally stepped out in faith it all came together and because of the many goose bump moments I have because of the things God does in my life and many others I know my faith keeps on getting even stronger. So I'm not going to waste my time reading the stuff you sent me or plan on sending me in the future because I do know better!!!!! So don't waste your time either.

God bless

[MsTerry]

Butch I am surprised that someone who is so devoted to Jesus isn't interested in finding out every thing that is available about him.
Has it occurred to you yet that God might have send me on your path so you can find out the truth about Jesus?
Don't cover your ears and close your eyes when the truth is in front of you.
Unless you think I am the devil.

Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes MsTerry!!! I may rely on my faith now that I know the truth, but before I came to that faith I did indeed do a ton of research. So you are wrong again. When I finally stepped out in faith it all came together and because of the many goose bump moments I have because of the things God does in my life and many others I know my faith keeps on getting even stronger. So I'm not going to waste my time reading the stuff you sent me or plan on sending me in the future because I do know better!!!!! So don't waste your time either.

[dw41552]

No, but it made me feel better about the value of a spell-checker and a dictionary!

Incidentally, the short American form of the French word "madame" that you are attempting to use here is spelled "ma'am". What you used is the phoneme for a breast or teat, as in "mammary".

Geesh! Is your life that boring where you have to follow me around to correct my spelling. I'm sure you've never miss spelled a word yourself, right? You ever heard of being in a hurry. And I really don't care if what I write is imperfect, everyone else here knows what I'm saying.

God bless

[dw41552]

Butch I am surprised that someone who is so devoted to Jesus isn't interested in finding out every thing that is available about him.
Has it occurred to you yet that God might have send me on your path so you can find out the truth about Jesus?

Nope!

Don't cover your ears and close your eyes when the truth is in front of you.
Unless you think I am the devil.

I believe he's speaking through you.

God bless

[mykil]

I was just reading an article in the San Francisco Chronicle and this phrase really caught my eye, I immediately thought of you guyz!

"We were less than 30 miles from the end of the voyage," he said by phone from Taipei. "But I still feel lucky that everyone survived. It was a miracle. God or Buddha kept us alive."

I truly love that he included two gods and wasn’t afraid to share his thoughts on his survival based ofn his belief that there might be more than one almighty!

[MsTerry]

Unless you think I am the devil.
I believe he's speaking through you.

Well, and I think you are possessed and obsessed with demons.
If I understand your logic, than everybody who died before Jesus, will go to hell because they didn't (and couldn't) follow him.
Everybody who didn't hear about him since then, is going to hell too.
Everybody who knows about him and doesn't follow him, goes to hell too.
Everybody who follows him but sins secretly (about 99.99%) still goes to hell.
So Butch tell me, how many people do you think will end up in heaven? a rough estimate, is it 5, 55, 500 or 5000?
You already mentioned that people like Buddha and Gandhi will go to hell, can you name some more people that eveybody is familiar with that will end up in hell?
Is there such place as purgatory?
Purgatory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Dynamique]

Nope, I've got lots of stuff to do... this is just too good to pass up. Of course I've made a spelling goof, but I take a moment to fix it!

This thread (including the spelling and word mis-use bit) is confirming my suspicions about the intelligence and educational level of people who need JEEEESUUUUSSS to tell them what to think and how to run their lives. It seems to be some sort of psychological flotation device.

god-free karmic blessings!

Geesh! Is your life that boring where you have to follow me around to correct my spelling. I'm sure you've never miss spelled a word yourself, right? You ever heard of being in a hurry. And I really don't care if what I write is imperfect, everyone else here knows what I'm saying.

God bless

[Sara S]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? -Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)

Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes MsTerry!!! I may rely on my faith now that I know the truth, but before I came to that faith I did indeed do a ton of research. So you are wrong again. When I finally stepped out in faith it all came together and because of the many goose bump moments I have because of the things God does in my life and many others I know my faith keeps on getting even stronger. So I'm not going to waste my time reading the stuff you sent me or plan on sending me in the future because I do know better!!!!! So don't waste your time either.

God bless

[dw41552]

Nope, I've got lots of stuff to do... this is just too good to pass up. Of course I've made a spelling goof, but I take a moment to fix it!

This thread (including the spelling and word mis-use bit) is confirming my suspicions about the intelligence and educational level of people who need JEEEESUUUUSSS to tell them what to think and how to run their lives. It seems to be some sort of psychological flotation device.

god-free karmic blessings!

Well unfortunately my life isn't perfect like yours so I need all the help I can get, and I'm not to proud to ask for it. Some day you may learn that one can't survive on intelligence alone.

God Bless