Al Gore & The Global Warming Agenda

[d-cat]

“We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." -Barack Obama


Obama Calls For National Civilian Stasi
https://www.prisonplanet.com/obama-c...ian-stasi.html

British Kids Encouraged To Become "Climate Cops"
Full page adverts in weekend newspapers ask kids to rat on their friends and family in order to prevent "climate crimes"
https://infowars.net/articles/july20...limatecops.htm

more info documenting our slide into world fascism...


Utility Workers Hired As Stasi Informants In Colorado, California, Arizona
https://www.prisonplanet.com/utility...a-arizona.html


FBI Agents could soon be allowed to investigate Americans without any evidence of wrongdoing
https://www.newschannel10.com/Global....asp?S=8618595

Brussels (EU's D.C.) to open its own police stations in UK
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ons-in-UK.html

Italy's plan to defuse uproar over fingerprinting of gypsy children: demand ALL citizens be fingerprinted
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...erprinted.html

[MsTerry]

Zeno,
I wonder why you choose to out DonCee?
Even though he has been able to come up with unsupported arguments, he made it very clear WHY he wanted to stay, quasi anonymous. (his family pictures are now available to everyone, Why he posted them I don't know)
Just because he regurgitates, that doesn't mean it is common knowledge.
How did you determine it was right wing Radio Talk?
Do you listen?

Thanks Don Cobb, for a good summary of right-wing talk radio! - Zeno, from sunny Marsillargues, Langedoc, Fr, sampling foie gras and other local sins.

[d-cat]

When you vote for Obama, you are voting for this man



Zbigniew Brzezinski, member of the CFR (who had Cheney as its director), co-founder (together with David Rockefeller) of the Trilateral Commission. Has son in McCain camp, and daughter is a propagandist on MSNBC. Obama is his protegé and he is Obama's foreign "advisor". Middle east war policies are his, which are outlined in his book The Grand Chessboard. In it he writes about letting Iraq fall apart through civil wars so that the US only needs to control the small strip of Iraq where the oil fields are. BTW the US is building a billion dollar embassy there the size of The Vatican. Think we're coming home anytime soon?

[/quote]

[Lenny]

Zeno,
I wonder why you choose to out DonCee?
Even though he has been able to come up with unsupported arguments, he made it very clear WHY he wanted to stay, quasi anonymous. (his family pictures are now available to everyone, Why he posted them I don't know) Just because he regurgitates, that doesn't mean it is common knowledge.
How did you determine it was right wing Radio Talk?
Do you listen?

Now I know why Don held onto the manner of his thoughts and presentation: he is an artist!
Artists have a brain-wire that is "different", as we commonly know it. Actually, for an artist, he expressed himself rather well in this medium. I am pleasantly surprised! Flat words can be rather tedious and boring when one is used to having the complexities and subtleties of music swirling around them.
So, Z, why DID you out him? Just because? Or just because you could? Obviously he got to you! You could have done what Valley Oak enjoys and just have put him on your Ignore List for a cooling period. So, why? Are you a moderator and have access to our personal information that Barry gets from us when we sign up? If you are then Barry needs to kick you off. If you are not then how did you get his personal name? Respect is earned and you just lost mine. That is VERY unethical of you to do so. As a matter of fact it is, what we call in America, chicken shit.

[d-cat]

Scientist Predicts Ice Age Within 10 Years
University of Mexico expert says lack of solar activity to cause significant cooling that will last over half a century
https://www.prisonplanet.com/scienti...-10-years.html

[lynn]

Re:...Scientist Predicts Ice Age Within 10 Years
---------

Oh, Ya'...Was readin' about that the other day....

Gee, golly, whiz...Is everythin' gonna' burn ta' death, or freeze ta' death?...

No-one seems ta' know fer' sure...

[d-cat]

Re:...Scientist Predicts Ice Age Within 10 Years
---------

Oh, Ya'...Was readin' about that the other day....

Gee, golly, whiz...Is everythin' gonna' burn ta' death, or freeze ta' death?...

No-one seems ta' know fer' sure...

and there's "scientific evidence" proving both sides

Sometimes it's easier to just look into the people involved.
My alarm goes off whenever it's "wrong" to have a different view.
If we all have to have one view, who will point it out to us if it's wrong?!

[Braggi]

When you vote for Obama, you are voting for this man
Zbigniew Brzezinski ...

I'm no fan of this guy, but if you don't vote for Obama, you're voting for all the criminals now plundering the tatters of the United States left by the Bush nightmare.

I'd say a vote for Obama is a whole lot better than a vote for McCain.

Wouldn't you?

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

So this is what our Themockracy has come to?
We are urged to vote for the lesser evil?
When do we get too pick someone, who does belong in the white house?

I am wondering who would you choose if it was up to you?
Candidates don't have to be available, just WHO do you think belongs in the hot seat.
Your all time, any time favourite.

I'm no fan of this guy, but if you don't vote for Obama, you're voting for all the criminals now plundering the tatters of the United States left by the Bush nightmare.

I'd say a vote for Obama is a whole lot better than a vote for McCain.

Wouldn't you?

-Jeff

[Mike Peterson]

If it was up to me, I would choose to replace our government institutions with proportional representation and a multi-part system. Europeans have an infinitely better system of government than the US, in large part because they are newer, better designed models. Some Countries' states, such as in Germany and Japan, were designed by Americans after WWII, who wrote their constitutions and their electoral process.

You got it right when you said that this is about choosing the lesser of two evils. But you can never allow yourself to forget the important fact that with our current method of electing officeholders (first-past-the-post and single member districts, etc) you can ONLY vote for the lesser of TWO evils. Also remember that we have a very undemocratic two-party system.

Just think of what it would be like if every time you went to the store or to buy a car or anything else, you only had two choices. This would make for a very poor market system and therefore, a very poor democracy because there are only two of anything. People make the mistake of believing that we actually have a choice because there is the Green Party, etc, but the truth is that we do not have a choice outside of the Republicratic Party or those 'two' parties.

In Europe, people have a true choice of many parties and there are several of them represented in the legislature of their countries. If 15% of the people vote for the Liberal Party (for example) then 15% of the seats in Congress or parliament will be held by Liberals and so on.

Mike

So this is what our Themockracy has come to?
We are urged to vote for the lesser evil?
When do we get too pick someone, who does belong in the white house?

I am wondering who would you choose if it was up to you?
Candidates don't have to be available, just WHO do you think belongs in the hot seat.
Your all time, any time favourite.

[OrchardDweller]

If it was up to me, I would choose to replace our government institutions with proportional representation and a multi-part system. Europeans have an infinitely better system of government than the US, in large part because they are newer, better designed models. Some Countries' states, such as in Germany and Japan, were designed by Americans after WWII, who wrote their constitutions and their electoral process.

You got it right when you said that this is about choosing the lesser of two evils. But you can never allow yourself to forget the important fact that with our current method of electing officeholders (first-past-the-post and single member districts, etc) you can ONLY vote for the lesser of TWO evils. Also remember that we have a very undemocratic two-party system.

Just think of what it would be like if every time you went to the store or to buy a car or anything else, you only had two choices. This would make for a very poor market system and therefore, a very poor democracy because there are only two of anything. People make the mistake of believing that we actually have a choice because there is the Green Party, etc, but the truth is that we do not have a choice outside of the Republicratic Party or those 'two' parties.

In Europe, people have a true choice of many parties and there are several of them represented in the legislature of their countries. If 15% of the people vote for the Liberal Party (for example) then 15% of the seats in Congress or parliament will be held by Liberals and so on.

Mike

Europe has been taken over by the globalists. It is now the European Union, (with one currency; the Euro), despite the fact that the people of Europe voted against it.
Now they're working on the North American Union (and the Amero), which will be merged with the European Union, the African Union and the Asia-Pacific Union. I guess if you're gonna take over the world, it has to be run under one system.

[OrchardDweller]

and there's "scientific evidence" proving both sides

Sometimes it's easier to just look into the people involved.
My alarm goes off whenever it's "wrong" to have a different view.
If we all have to have one view, who will point it out to us if it's wrong?!

[Mike Peterson]

O.D., you've demonstrated a clear lack of information about Europe.

People in Europe have consistently voted in favor of and supported the European Union. Please offer concrete examples if you believe otherwise.

At this moment, and during the last eight years under Bush, Europeans have enjoyed superior democracies and public expression through their governments while in the US, Americans have suffered under a grossly undemocratic system and an aggressive, fundamentalist, reactionary administration. Quite a contrast.

The European Union is an astoundingly positive and constructive project. There is very little about it that is negative, if anything at all. Anti EU sentiment comes from right wing propaganda in the US because of the huge advantages it gives Europeans over the US. These advantages are in every aspect of society: economic, international diplomacy, quality of democracy and popular expression, and so on and so forth. Just one more example is the fact that Europeans already started to legalize gay marriage over ten years ago while it is still a hotly debated issue here in the States and is only legal in Massachusetts and semi legal in 'liberal' California.

The single currency, the Euro, is a tremendous leap forward and the vast majority of Europeans walking down the street support this. The countries against the Euro, such as Denmark, the UK, and very few others have not adopted the Euro.

It doesn't help to go around posting statements on BBs, such as Wacco, based on misinformation of the facts, propaganda, and interested biases.

Please do your homework.

Mike

Europe has been taken over by the globalists. It is now the European Union, (with one currency; the Euro), despite the fact that the people of Europe voted against it.
Now they're working on the North American Union (and the Amero), which will be merged with the European Union, the African Union and the Asia-Pacific Union. I guess if you're gonna take over the world, it has to be run under one system.

[OrchardDweller]

O.D., you've demonstrated a clear lack of information about Europe.

People in Europe have consistently voted in favor of and supported the European Union. Please offer concrete examples if you believe otherwise.

At this moment, and during the last eight years under Bush, Europeans have enjoyed superior democracies and public expression through their governments while in the US, Americans have suffered under a grossly undemocratic system and an aggressive, fundamentalist, reactionary administration. Quite a contrast.

The European Union is an astoundingly positive and constructive project. There is very little about it that is negative, if anything at all. Anti EU sentiment comes from right wing propaganda in the US because of the huge advantages it gives Europeans over the US. These advantages are in every aspect of society: economic, international diplomacy, quality of democracy and popular expression, and so on and so forth. Just one more example is the fact that Europeans already started to legalize gay marriage over ten years ago while it is still a hotly debated issue here in the States and is only legal in Massachusetts and semi legal in 'liberal' California.

The single currency, the Euro, is a tremendous leap forward and the vast majority of Europeans walking down the street support this. The countries against the Euro, such as Denmark, the UK, and very few others have not adopted the Euro.

It doesn't help to go around posting statements on BBs, such as Wacco, based on misinformation of the facts, propaganda, and interested biases.

Please do your homework.

Mike

LOL I'm European.

[MsTerry]

The single currency, the Euro, is a tremendous leap forward and the vast majority of Europeans walking down the street support this. The countries against the Euro, such as Denmark, the UK, and very few others have not adopted the Euro.

The people I have talked to say that the Euro has made their life more expensive.
Not a single person who doesn't convert the Euro to their old currency, trying to figure out if something is cheap or expensive.

[Braggi]

So this is what our Themockracy has come to? ...

https://profile.myspace.com/index.cf...endID=81940993

So this is what our Themockracy has come to?
We are urged to vote for the lesser evil? ...

Yup. That's what it is. Deal with it.

[QUOTE=MsTerry;67368 ... When do we get too pick someone, who does belong in the white house? ... [/QUOTE]

Dreamer.

[QUOTE=MsTerry;67368 ... I am wondering who would you choose if it was up to you?
Candidates don't have to be available, just WHO do you think belongs in the hot seat.
Your all time, any time favourite.[/QUOTE]

Me. Barry as President of Vice. No, Barry's too nice.

Maybe Dixon for President of Vice. And he'd have to pretend to be nasty.

Seriously, that's a very tough question.

Wavy Gravy says:
Nobody should be President.
Nobody is qualified.
Nobody deserves to have that much power.
Nobody should be able to spend that much of other people's money.
Vote for Nobody.

But that gets you nowhere.

Today I heard a man speaking on the radio. He was awesome. Young enough, rich, smart, articulate almost to the point of speaking poetically, powerful ... the radio host asked why he wasn't running for President.

He replied that he thought about it, but he knew people would be asking about what he smoked when he was 18 and he wasn't ready to open his life up to that kind of public scrutiny. So there you have it.

Probably the 100 most qualified people to be President feel the same way. And this isn't about them. This is about how petty, self centered, self absorbed, "other" phobic, infantile, uneducated, misguided, and corrupted by Christianity (read: Churchianity) the majority of the electorate is in this country.

It's a sad statement.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... Now they're working on the North American Union (and the Amero), which will be merged with the European Union, the African Union and the Asia-Pacific Union. I guess if you're gonna take over the world, it has to be run under one system.

Can you give some facts on this other than youtube videos by people we've never heard of. I did a search on the Amero and came up with practically nothing.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

The people I have talked to say that the Euro has made their life more expensive.
Not a single person who doesn't convert the Euro to their old currency, trying to figure out if something is cheap or expensive.

Ever try proofreading MsTerry? Read it out loud to yourself. That helps me sometimes.

We just spent three weeks in Paris. I'll tell you that EVERYTHING is expensive there and not just because the dollar's weak. Food, clothes (and what a lot of cheap junk in their stores!), medicines ... fuel ... everything. And they have little choice about what they buy and where they buy it. There are few brands. Go to a store and you'll find one or two brands of a given item where there would be a dozen in the US. Few stores there carry as wide a variety of items as a gas station "convenience" store does here.

Pat tried to buy some ibuprofen for pain. She was directed to the Pharmacie (which is a separate store-no drugs in a grocery or department store). The only choice she was offered was a 20 pack of Advil for about $5 (equivalent). When those were gone, she tried again, and this time asked for generic. She was sold another 20 pack, generics this time, for exactly the same price. Here we could do to the Dollar Tree and get 100 for a dollar.

Packages of everything in the stores are smaller. Eggs come in half dozens, meat in small packs mostly under a pound. These people are used to getting by on less and paying more for it. It's no bargain to be in Paris and the outlying towns seemed to be in the same price ranges. The only "discount" stores sell crap merchandise - far worse than our typical "dollar store." And I couldn't find a damn home improvement or hardware store for anything. I don't know how they fix anything there.

We are very spoiled here by all the choices we have. We are very spoiled by the low prices we still have, despite the weak dollar. It's no wonder people in other places envy us. It's no wonder we're fat. That's a fact I noticed immediately when we got to Philadelphia to change planes. Americans are fat. Most of us are. Most of the French are not fat. They can't afford to eat that much.

So there's my comparison of the dollar and the Euro. I'd rather we stick to the dollar.

-Jeff

PS. The Pharmacie offers numerous "minceur" products. Minceur means "thinness." Used as a verb it means "to lose weight" or "to be fit" if we understood it correctly. They didn't need these products in our opinion.

[MsTerry]

Quote:

MsTerry wrote:
The people I have talked to say that the Euro has made their life more expensive.
Not a single person who doesn't convert the Euro to their old currency, trying to figure out if something is cheap or expensive.

Ever try proofreading MsTerry? Read it out loud to yourself. That helps me sometimes.

Yes,I do, but Icon fess not alll the time (check post #137LOL)

I can see how my statement is confusing to you. What i meant to say is that Europeans are still converting the Euro to their old currency. Read it again

[Mike Peterson]

I have no way of confirming whether or not you are indeed a European. Nonetheless, you are as poorly informed as an American.

Please do your homework.

By the way, only the extreme right (which you are) and the extreme left (some Communists, etc) are against the EU. Almost everyone else in Europe supports it.

Mike

LOL I'm European.

[Braggi]

Yes,I do, but Icon fess not alll the time (check post #137LOL)

I can see how my statement is confusing to you. What i meant to say is that Europeans are still converting the Euro to their old currency. Read it again

Well, not in France. They are fully engaged in the Euro. Never heard "Franc" mentioned the whole time we were there. They don't need to convert to see if something is expensive. It is. We found very few bargains there. Even the world famous ""Le marché aux puces" (flea market) was mostly filled with expensive Asian imported junk. Only a few vendors sell anything used and most of them are high end antique dealers with stratospheric prices. We did find a few inexpensive treasures but they were few and far between.

I found one grocery store where packaged coffee was very cheap; only about half what I usually pay here. Not sure why. Other stores were more expensive and coffee in the famous sidewalk cafes is always more expensive than in the US.

Did I mention their wine is expensive and mostly not very good? We are richly blessed here in Sonoma County.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

Hello Ms. Terry, I hope you've been well this summer.

Regarding Europeans and their Euro, when I traveled there last year for five weeks with my family, most people (in Spain at least) were not converting back to their old monetary unit to know how much something costs. Sure, some people do that but not most folks. For some, old, bad habits die hard. As time goes by, however, since the year that they incorporated the new coin, the old conversions will become more and more meaningless. By the end of a decade from the transition, no one will be doing that because the economic fluctuations, inflation, and distant memory of an old, vanquished standard will completely do away with that practice by a few.

But this business about people converting back to their country's old standard is a non-issue. I think this talk (here on Wacco) has more to do with the fact that prices have indeed increased with the Euro and more so in the 'poorer' nations such as Spain, as opposed to the wealthier economies such as the UK, Germany, France, etc. (Actually, Spain is doing better than ever, despite the recent slump, with the exception of its old Empire days in the 16th and 17th centuries).

Great things require a great price, normally. And Europe's transition to the Euro is an expensive investment with huge, even incalculable, returns. As one real estate investor used to explain to his students (of which I was one): "When a homeowner has to spend $4,000 or more updating their electrical installation, their reaction is, "Ouch!" But this investment will raise the property value and come back to the owner in a larger sum when the property is sold in the future."

In any case, I'm very curious to know why folks on this board find the Euro so threatening? I'm really, really surprised. What is it, in essence, that has some of you so irked about the Euro? Why do you have to attack it so virulently? Please, someone explain it to me. I would really like to know.

Thanks,

Edward

Yes,I do, but Icon fess not alll the time (check post #137LOL)

I can see how my statement is confusing to you. What i meant to say is that Europeans are still converting the Euro to their old currency. Read it again

[BizWrangler]

I've been to France five times, and attended a wedding in the South West, stayed for five weeks, and have an apartment in a typical residental neighborhood in Paris I rent while there. There are reasons for some of the differences.

Space is at a premium in Paris, apartments are usually quite small and kitchens tiny. Many buildings are old and do not have elevators, so one has to carry their food/purchases up flights of stairs. One usually has their main meal at lunch, and eats that at a fix price menu inexpensively at the local brasserie. There is little storage in kitchens/apartments. One does not buy much food at a time, so packages are smaller to allow for these considerations of lack of storage (tiny refrig) , carrying up flights of stairs and dinner usually being more of a snack then full meal. So one usually only buys for one or two days at a time, and eats less, however they usually get high quality items that cost more. They practice portion control.

I was able to have lunch at UNESCO with a friend who works there, and they have a full dining room with fantastic choices very affordable meals. I don't know how common it is for large organizations to have their own cafeterias, but I do suspect the tourist will never see these places. There are lots of places in Paris to eat affordably if you know where to go. It's that true for most large citites once you get out of the tourist areas? I know large stores where one can buy groceries in Paris for reasonable prices.

They are slim due to the portion control and also all the walking and stair climbing. Not many drive in town, so they take the Metro, and if you've been in the Metro you know you have to climb up and down stairs when going in and out or switching lines. I always lose weight and get in better shape when I'm visiting! Plus, if you had to haul your meals up and purchases up flights of stairs everyday, you'd shop and eat differently, too. So the food you buy in Paris that is pre-packaged does have smaller portions, however you can buy from an open market and specify how much you want, too.

As in any big city, the tourist traps are for tourists, and the locals don't go to Le Marche aux Puces, but instead to one of the lesser known on the outskirts of town in other areas such as the one on Saturdays at Porte des Vanves where I found fantastic bargains. I didn't see many tourists there. The locals know where to go shop for bargains and when. They don't drive big SUVs and head for Costco to fill up for three months of toilet paper! I doubt many of us head to downtown Healdsburg to do our shopping, either, however the tourists staying in the lovely hotels there wouldn't be able to find a home improvement center, either. They do exist, but not where the tourists congregate.

Les Marche aux Puces in the north of Paris has many markets withing the one large market. They specialize in various things - some are definitely high end, however I found others where I located quite a few inexpensive but lovely items. You may have missed those among all the cheap Chinese crap in some of the others. It is a large area, so you may have missed the ones that do sell second hand flea market kind of things. I got a lovely brass door knocker for $8 which is now on my front door, and a vingage post card of my favorite place in Paris for less than $1.

If you want a cheap cafe in a cafe, do like the locals do...stand at the bar. It is always more expensive if you sit at a table. Table sitting is also for people watching and getting waited on....so you do pay more, but you don't have to. I've had fantastic wine in France, and for $3 a bottle. You can buy yuckie wine here too if you don't know what you are doing. Good champagne was more affordable, too. Perhaps you just didn't know where to shop. Any big city has it's pricey places and those that are cheap, too. Yes, Paris is pricey, but if you know what you are doing you can avoid those places and live on the cheap.

Next time, take me and I'll show you! OOOOh la la!!!

Well, not in France. They are fully engaged in the Euro. Never heard "Franc" mentioned the whole time we were there. They don't need to convert to see if something is expensive. It is. We found very few bargains there. Even the world famous ""Le marché aux puces" (flea market) was mostly filled with expensive Asian imported junk. Only a few vendors sell anything used and most of them are high end antique dealers with stratospheric prices. We did find a few inexpensive treasures but they were few and far between.

I found one grocery store where packaged coffee was very cheap; only about half what I usually pay here. Not sure why. Other stores were more expensive and coffee in the famous sidewalk cafes is always more expensive than in the US.

Did I mention their wine is expensive and mostly not very good? We are richly blessed here in Sonoma County.

-Jeff

[d-cat]

I have no way of confirming whether or not you are indeed a European. Nonetheless, you are as poorly informed as an American.

Please do your homework.

By the way, only the extreme right (which you are) and the extreme left (some Communists, etc) are against the EU. Almost everyone else in Europe supports it.

Mike

Then why do they keep voting against it?

Ireland rejects Lisbon Treaty
https://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbon.html

[d-cat]

Europe has been taken over by the globalists. It is now the European Union, (with one currency; the Euro), despite the fact that the people of Europe voted against it.
Now they're working on the North American Union (and the Amero), which will be merged with the European Union, the African Union and the Asia-Pacific Union. I guess if you're gonna take over the world, it has to be run under one system.

You're absolutely right.

Lisbon vote result is not hampering EU, report suggests
https://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper...125658433.html

Foreign Secretary David Miliband says the UK must ratify the EU Treaty despite its rejection by Irish voters
https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7453084.stm

Nicolas Sarkozy is accused of blackmail over EU Treaty
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...EU-Treaty.html

I know people over there who are waking up to it as well. The EU started as economic integration and ended up as political integration. At least you guys got to vote (as if it matters). In the US, it's all being done by stealth.

[MsTerry]

Hey Eduardo,

Next time you or your wife call Spain, can you ask the family over there if they like the Euro? if things are more expensive now? or better?
I am curious now

Thanks
MsT

Hello Ms. Terry, I hope you've been well this summer.

Regarding Europeans and their Euro, when I traveled there last year for five weeks with my family, most people (in Spain at least) were not converting back to their old monetary unit to know how much something costs. Sure, some people do that but not most folks. For some, old, bad habits die hard. As time goes by, however, since the year that they incorporated the new coin, the old conversions will become more and more meaningless. By the end of a decade from the transition, no one will be doing that because the economic fluctuations, inflation, and distant memory of an old, vanquished standard will completely do away with that practice by a few.

But this business about people converting back to their country's old standard is a non-issue. I think this talk (here on Wacco) has more to do with the fact that prices have indeed increased with the Euro and more so in the 'poorer' nations such as Spain, as opposed to the wealthier economies such as the UK, Germany, France, etc. (Actually, Spain is doing better than ever, despite the recent slump, with the exception of its old Empire days in the 16th and 17th centuries).

Great things require a great price, normally. And Europe's transition to the Euro is an expensive investment with huge, even incalculable, returns. As one real estate investor used to explain to his students (of which I was one): "When a homeowner has to spend $4,000 or more updating their electrical installation, their reaction is, "Ouch!" But this investment will raise the property value and come back to the owner in a larger sum when the property is sold in the future."

In any case, I'm very curious to know why folks on this board find the Euro so threatening? I'm really, really surprised. What is it, in essence, that has some of you so irked about the Euro? Why do you have to attack it so virulently? Please, someone explain it to me. I would really like to know.

Thanks,

Edward

[d-cat]

EU Constitution author says referendums can be ignored

The former President of France drafted the old Constitution that was rejected by French and Dutch voters three years ago before being resurrected as the Lisbon EU Treaty, itself shunned by the Irish two weeks ago.

Mr Giscard d'Estaing told the Irish Times that Ireland's referendum rejection would not kill the Treaty, despite a legal requirement of unanimity from all the EU's 27 member states.

"We are evolving towards majority voting because if we stay with unanimity, we will do nothing," he said...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...e-ignored.html


Taking over countries against their will. Like the Soviet Union.

[Valley Oak]

I know the answer already since we were there last year:

Yes, things are more expensive but worth it over the long run.

For some reason, the less wealthy nations, such as Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Greece, etc, are experiencing more of the brunt than the wealthier countries, such as Germany, France, UK, etc. Some states have not accepted the Euro, such as Denmark, the UK, and 1 or 2, maybe three others. The newest member states (mostly from Eastern Europe) don't have the Euro yet because their membership is being realized in stages and not all at once. Another aspect of the graduated membership of the former Communist countries is that their workforces will not be able to move freely through the EU until the last stages of full membership (figures).

My wife's family and Spaniards in general don't, as a rule, use the old Spanish 'Peseta' to translate on a daily basis. They might do this occasionally as a forethought or perhaps for something that is very expensive in order to give them another point of view on their investment or expense. In any case, this practice of converting back to the Peseta in their own head is not a daily ritual as some posters here seem to assert. And it is a doomed practice because as the years go by, that old reference will become more remote, obsolete, and inaccurate.

On another question, one that I asked the board here, I think that people's negative reaction to the Euro has several reasons. The most important one is fear that the EU will best the U.S. (it already has) in economic concerns. Eventually, this will extend to diplomacy, international affairs, security, politics in general, etc, until every important aspect of the function of a superstate (which the EU is, by the way) has clearly surpassed the US.

This is actually quite serious because right now the US is still KING (the world empire) and the incipient roles of world leader that the EU is polishing and growing are beginning to challenge the until now undisputed status of the US. If you think about this, then it becomes clearer why there is so much fear of the EU here in the States, especially among conservatives, reactionaries, Republicans, and those who consider themselves to be ultra patriotic.

Within the next ten to twenty years, the US will have to make do with being a partner with the future EU regarding world affairs. There is nothing Americans can do to avoid this from happening short of nuking the entire European continent, something that I wouldn't put past some folks (a minority, of course) in this country.

In any case, it's also interesting to see how different the dialog is here about the EU than it is among Europeans. The debates taking place here on the 'liberal' Wacco forum clearly indicate coming from positions of fear and angst while Europeans are debating how far integration should go.

This sheds light on some of the attitudes here (in the US and Wacco) that mistakenly believe that most Europeans are against the EU. Nothing could be further from the truth. The votes against potential new EU treaties are in regards to its expansion and reformation, NOT on the EU itself, which is what people in this forum are saying.

If you read up on the history of the EU (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eu and not bogus, bigoted, and biased sources that most people here use), you'll see how many treaties have been voted on, in favor and against. The EU started as an agreement of economic cooperation between 6 European countries to help them rebuild after the destruction of WWII (which ended in 1945). But this agreement was so unexpectedly successful that in 1957, the Treaty of Rome was signed without protest from anyone, whereas the European Economic Community was born. After the Treaty of Rome, there have been a series of aggressive and ambitious expansions of what was then the EEC. Some were so extensive that they were rejected outright. While the other expansions that took baby steps were normally supported and approved.

What is now called the "European Union" was created in 1993 with the approval of the Maastricht Treaty. There was opposition, of course, but it went through because although it was ambitious, it was not unreasonable. Everything is a negotiation and the expansion and integration of Europe is no exception. It is a colossal project and moves more slowly than an elephant and more difficult to train.

When the Lisbon Treaty was rejected recently by the Irish, it had to do with saying 'NO' to a European Constitution, much like that of the United States in the sense of national integrity (legal and political, not esoteric). But this was a vote against further expansion and integration, not against the general concept of the EU itself as a whole. This is what Americans don't understand, an attitude well reflected here on Wacco. The Irish themselves, just like everyone else who is a member, accept and appreciate the EU. The Irish have never seen such wealth, growth, and happiness in their millennia long history.

Hope this answers your questions and a few others as well.

Edward

Hey Eduardo,

Next time you or your wife call Spain, can you ask the family over there if they like the Euro? if things are more expensive now? or better?
I am curious now

Thanks
MsT

[Zeno Swijtink]

I though this clipping about the rats leaving the ship was kind of a fun follow-up to Edward's excellent post. - Zeno

*****

Criminals Dumping Weak US Dollar for Euro
Agence France-Presse (France)
OTTAWA -- The weakened US dollar has fallen out of favor with organized crime groups to pay for drug shipments or to settle scores, a Canadian government report said Friday.

And if the greenback continues its slide in 2008, as expected, more and more criminals are likely to exchange euros for illicit goods, said Criminal Intelligence Service Canada in its annual report.

"The US dollar weakened significantly against other major currencies in 2007 and according to some economists, is expected to depreciate further in 2008," said the report.

"As a consequence, other currencies -- particularly the euro -- are poised to weaken the US dollar's dominance as the currency of choice for international remittances and payments," it said.

"This trend could also drive an increase in observed instances of bulk-cash transfers denominated in currencies other than Canadian and US dollars," the report added.

Organized criminal groups, topping 900 in Canada, are primarily focused on the illicit drug trade, but have also expanded into credit card fraud, organ trafficking, identity theft and even illegal logging of Canada's vast forests, said the report.

"The illicit drug market remains the largest criminal market in terms of extent, scope, and the degree of involvement by the majority of organized crime groups," many of them operating across international borders, it said.

Marijuana remains one of the most trafficked illicit drugs in Canada, and crops harvested here supply much of Canada and the United States.

Methamphetamine production in Canada, meanwhile, has risen to meet expanding international demand with several "super labs" set up for foreign distribution of late.

As well, Canada, the Netherlands and Belgium are now the primary source of ecstasy to the world, said the report.

Canadian forests, representing one tenth of the world's forested area, are vulnerable to illegal harvesting "due to their relative abundance, isolation, and the large number of logging access roads," it explained.

[Braggi]

Look at what those wacky scientists are up to now!

Can you believe the efforts that crowd will go to? I wonder if they're all up there holding the snow in their hands to melt it? No doubt it's all about that nefarious agenda ... what was that agenda?

-Jeff

Arctic ice 'is at tipping point'

By Richard Black
Environment correspondent, BBC News website

Arctic sea ice has shrunk to the second smallest extent since satellite records began, US scientists have revealed.
The National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC) says that the ice-covered area has fallen below its 2005 level, which was the second lowest on record.
Melting has occurred earlier in the year than usual, meaning that the iced area could become even smaller than last September, the lowest recorded.
Researchers say the Arctic is now at a climatic "tipping point".
"We could very well be in that quick slide downwards in terms of passing a tipping point," said Mark Serreze, a senior scientist at the Colorado-based NSIDC.
"It's tipping now. We're seeing it happen now," he told the Associated Press news agency.
Under covered
The area covered by ice on 26 August measured 5.26 million sq km (2.03 million sq miles), just below the 2005 low of 5.32 million sq km (2.05 million sq).
But the 2005 low came in late September; and with the 2008 graph pointing downwards, the NSIDC team believes last year's record could still be broken even though air temperatures, both in the Arctic and globally, have been lower than last year.
Last September, the ice covered just 4.13 million sq km (1.59 million sq miles), the smallest extent seen since satellite imaging began 30 years ago. The 1980 figure was 7.8 million sq km (3 million sq miles).

The 2008 graph shows a steeper decline than at the same time last year

Most of the cover consists of relatively thin ice that formed within a single winter and melts more easily than ice that accumulated over many years.
Irrespective of whether the 2007 record falls in the next few weeks, the long-term trend is obvious, scientists said; the ice is declining more sharply than even a decade ago, and the Arctic region will progressively turn to open water in summers.
A few years ago, scientists were predicting ice-free Arctic summers by about 2080.
Then computer models started projecting earlier dates, around 2030 to 2050; and some researchers now believe it could happen within five years. ... (follow the link to read the rest of the article)

https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7585645.stm