when will the time come for population control?

[mykil]

In our time our resources are running so low, do you think we might be ready to slow our grown in this time and age?

[Valley Oak]

I have had a lot of conversations with people, throughout the years, about population control. I remember it was more of an issue in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s but then awareness and concern waned. Don't know why.

I'll never forget when I saw the movie: "Soylent Green" when I was a kid. It didn't have the same emotional effect when I saw it more than 30 years later but the initial idea has stayed with me since my first viewing.

In one talk I had recently, I think last year, some people used a relatively old response, what some people refer to as the Malthusian theory. Simply put, that nature will come up with an environmental check on our species through a new disease (or famine or war, etc), such as the black plague, which will hopefully "weed out the weak and bring our number way down and under control."

Another conversation I had with another person, I think around 1982, was a little silly and intriguing. The guy I was talking to seemed so disturbed by the subject of overpopulation that he whispered the fact as if it was some secret for which you could be arrested for revealing! He then said something along the lines that war would have to be the "check" and that our leaders were secretly plotting to start wars for this reason before the world collapsed under an out of control population.

Perhaps people don't like to talk about things that disturb them, which I guess I can understand but I don't agree that it's acceptable. Another reason is that a significant number of people, especially U.S. citizens today, are very religious, religious to the point of hanging onto the "Be fruitful and multiply" saying that was so appropriate in the colonizing and settler days during the 17th through 19th centuries. The current occupant of the White House is probably of this mind set, which says a lot considering the fact that he wields the influence and power of a president. If our public officials are too busy being religious crusaders against birth control and abortion then we have a serious problem. The United States has a population of over 300 million people and counting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states).

We need to teach birth control and have a comprehensive sex education program in all public schools as they do now in Europe (and have had for decades). We need to make birth control cheap or free and readily available for everyone, including teens under the age of 18. But we won't do that here in the U.S. because we are too fucking stupid and fanatic not only for religious reasons but there is a new hysteria out there regarding under-aged sex being illegal and prosecuting people for it big time. It's a hysteria that's way out of control and violates peoples' Constitutional rights.

I don't see a solution for it here in the U.S. In European and other countries, the governments become active in educating the public and extensively using public funds for all of the aspects I've mentioned above. But taxes are another reason why we won't do what we need to do in the U.S. Americans hate taxes and spending money on "inappropriate and immoral" things like birth control, abortion, and sex education for our young people. Another analogy that reactionaries, conservatives, and religious zealots like to harp on here in the U.S. is that China "forces" its people to have abortions. Even if that were true, that is not a reason for not providing reproductive resources for the American public at taxpayers' expense.

Edward

In our time our resources are running so low, do you think we might be ready to slow our grown in this time and age?

[OrchardDweller]

I don't see a solution for it here in the U.S. In European and other countries, the governments become active in educating the public and extensively using public funds for all of the aspects I've mentioned above. But taxes are another reason why we won't do what we need to do in the U.S. Americans hate taxes and spending money on "inappropriate and immoral" things like birth control, abortion, and sex education for our young people. Another analogy that reactionaries, conservatives, and religious zealots like to harp on here in the U.S. is that China "forces" its people to have abortions. Even if that were true, that is not a reason for not providing reproductive resources for the American public at taxpayers' expense.

Edward

How about letting people keep their tax dollars so they can afford their own birth control? If they feel they need to.
If you are "pro-choice", wouldn't it be the pro-choice thing to do to let women choose for themselves whether they want to have a child or not?
Those were rhetorical questions by the way.

[Becky]

I do wish there was more education out there on birth control as our population can use it. Excellent post Edward.

[ThePhiant]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAAAAA
how many kids do you have again, Becky , 2 or 3 ??????????
and Mykil do you have 2 or 3 children?
roble has got at least one
haaahahahahahhahahahahaha
yeah, let's do something about those people who don't have children yet!!!!!
LMFAO

I do wish there was more education out there on birth control as our population can use it. Excellent post Edward.

[mykil]

I have two, one for each parent! My children are in their early Twenties and have both decided against having children! I didn’t even ask why, I just new the answer to that question already, they are brighter than me, plain and simple! At this point in time, I don’t think I would want to raise children. IT was bad enough in the eighties! It is getting scary around here. Even now that they are off and running and not in my home any longer, I still worry on a daily basis and just pray nothing goes haywire and cost them either their lives, their limbs, or even their minds! But seriously LULU what do you think? Oh and don’t hold back either!!!!

There is a young mother I know that does laundry and the little laundry next door. I’ve known her for Six years. She has been pregnant every since I have known her, she has Nine and is not even Thirty yet! What do you think about that? What does that multiply out to in the long run? In my mind I think One per parent is adequate and going backwards from there might just be the ticket here! IF they don’t like it they can move to Canada, I hear they are still paying you to have children there! Or is that just a rumor? LMAO!!! How many does everyone here have? : Lets add them all up and do some simple multiplications and see what the outcome will be in lets say fifty years? LULU you go first, I think you have Three yes?

I do know this is an extremely sensitive post, I was a where of this before I even considered writing it, yet it needs to be started somewhere. This is the sole purpose of most of us becoming vegetarians, the sole purpose of most of the stress all of us succumb to with all the horrors in society. Not having enough food for all. Not having enough oceans to pollute! Not having enough Ozone to poke holes in to warm up our earth’s atmosphere. It seems to me this needs to be discussed and taken to heart all around the world. Reduction is in order!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAAAAA
how many kids do you have again, Becky , 2 or 3 ??????????
and Mykil do you have 2 or 3 children?
roble has got at least one
haaahahahahahhahahahahaha
yeah, let's do something about those people who don't have children yet!!!!!
LMFAO

[alanora]

I am confused as I thought you have two female progeny and one male, equaling three, no?! and then the ones no one is sure who provided the errant sperm to produce. (male bashing) Why would you delete your eldest daughter? I love the way it was pointed out that these thoughts of population control come after the creation of own progeny. btw I never wanted children while young..up until the moment when the powers that be told me I would not be able to conceive and the urge was one of the strongest impulses I've ever felt. If each couple had one child that would begin to ease the crowding and thinned natural resources. If each person reproduces we will not see a change. me

I have two, one for each parent! My children are in their early Twenties and have both decided against having children! I didn’t even ask why, I just new the answer to that question already, they are brighter than me, plain and simple! At this point in time, I don’t think I would want to raise children. IT was bad enough in the eighties! It is getting scary around here. Even now that they are off and running and not in my home any longer, I still worry on a daily basis and just pray nothing goes haywire and cost them either their lives, their limbs, or even their minds! But seriously LULU what do you think? Oh and don’t hold back either!!!!

There is a young mother I know that does laundry and the little laundry next door. I’ve known her for Six years. She has been pregnant every since I have known her, she has Nine and is not even Thirty yet! What do you think about that? What does that multiply out to in the long run? In my mind I think One per parent is adequate and going backwards from there might just be the ticket here! IF they don’t like it they can move to Canada, I hear they are still paying you to have children there! Or is that just a rumor? LMAO!!! How many does everyone here have? : Lets add them all up and do some simple multiplications and see what the outcome will be in lets say fifty years? LULU you go first, I think you have Three yes?

I do know this is an extremely sensitive post, I was a where of this before I even considered writing it, yet it needs to be started somewhere. This is the sole purpose of most of us becoming vegetarians, the sole purpose of most of the stress all of us succumb to with all the horrors in society. Not having enough food for all. Not having enough oceans to pollute! Not having enough Ozone to poke holes in to warm up our earth’s atmosphere. It seems to me this needs to be discussed and taken to heart all around the world. Reduction is in order!

[Becky]

I'm not sure how to take this but its upsetting. What does it matter if I have 2 or 3 kids? It not like i have 5 or more all by different daddies and living on welfare. I think its rude of you to point us out like this.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAAAAA
how many kids do you have again, Becky , 2 or 3 ??????????
and Mykil do you have 2 or 3 children?
roble has got at least one
haaahahahahahhahahahahaha
yeah, let's do something about those people who don't have children yet!!!!!
LMFAO

[ThePhiant]

I love the way it was pointed out that these thoughts of population control come after the creation of own progeny.

Alanora, it's OK to mention my name
you can even send some gratitude, thanks to Barry

[ThePhiant]

but Becky, you want to talk about birthcontrol and reducing world population and yet you already have 3 children.???
is your point of view for the rest of us????

I'm not sure how to take this but its upsetting. What does it matter if I have 2 or 3 kids? It not like i have 5 or more all by different daddies and living on welfare. I think its rude of you to point us out like this.

[mykil]

Oh LULU I love you but what is your real thought on this predicament we are in? Do you have an opinion, or are you just going to should this be a real issue, or shall we just let the kids inherit this mess? Productiveness is a virtue? Maybe but I think the verdict is out on that one, will we as a whole be able to get a handle on this or is it all a waste of everyone’s breath? I think the latter on pretty much everything we as a society try to do with the really productive Government we adhere to!

but Becky, you want to talk about birthcontrol and reducing world population and yet you already have 3 children.???
is your point of view for the rest of us????

[Becky]

but Becky, you want to talk about birthcontrol and reducing world population and yet you already have 3 children.???
is your point of view for the rest of us????

Hey everyone has their own opinion and your are entitled to yours as well. I find it interesting that you reply to a controversial subject and then feel the need to attack the first person to reply who has more than one child. Its kind of funny to me now though that even though its not listed in my signature that you happen to remember how many kids I have. I feel so important LOL Its not like I'm on wacco everyday and go on and on about my family life. This is supposed to be a community of people that supports one another not a place to be negative, I guess that is just something you like to do. I don't consider 2 or 3 kids to be a lot considering most of two. My hubby is from a very large family and I am from a small family. To each there own.

I do however believe BC is something that is not talked about enough to our youth and its something that should be changed. When I replied to edwards post it was based on the fact that many babies are having babies now and its sad IMO. Its no longer taboo to get pregnant in high school and has become more socially acceptable. What happened to going to college or having a career and being married before having kids? I know things happen and birth control fails but its much easier for an adult to have the drive to continue to move forward with their life and not live off the system. Don't take this the wrong way, welfare is something that families sometimes will need when the going gets rough and they need assistance to survive for a period of time. it just saddens me to see our youth lacking the proper education about birth control and they are having babies of their own far to young.

Now I'm sure you Lulu will reply with some other negative remark but then maybe not. Debate can be good but maybe you should think about supporting fellow members by not singling out one person who has kids.

[ChristineL]

I agree with Becky that Birth Control information should be a lot more available. It's not only babies having babies but all the STD's out there, including HIV, and little education on the use of condoms. Did you know that a while back (I think around 2 or 3 years ago) all programs that promoted the use of condoms and/or distributed them lost any Federal funding they were receiving? Unfortunately, abstinence only programs are not terribly effective. Regardless of how one might feel about sex outside marriage, it seems that paying for these transgressions with your life is a bit extreme.

Until all the pro-life and abistinence only people are ready to take in the unwanted babies or pay for their upbringinhg, they should be quiet and not be trying to overthrow Roe Vs. Wade or cutting funding to all organizations that promote condom use.

I do feel strongly about population control. Too many of our eath's species are going, and have already gone, extinct. I'm glad I'm a baby boomer who has a chance of being gone from this earth before all the forests are gone. When I've listened to people with 4, 5, 6 or more children bemoan the fact their children won't be able to live their lives in Sonoma County due to building restrictions, my internal reaction is: "How many of our redwoods would like us to cut down to make room for them?". In addition, being single with no dependents I'm in the highest tax bracket. I use way less resources than families do and pay more for them. I pay a ridiculous amount for sewer connection and basic charges on my water bill with no financial reward for my low water use.

I've often thought that one way to address the population problem would be that the first two children would be tax exemptions, the third not and from the fourth on extra taxes would be charged. I know, it would never happen.....and it's not the children's faults their parents decided to have them. So yes, I'm apalled by Bush's recent veto. Of course, I'm also apalled that the "Healthy Families" program does not also cover the parents if they can't afford insurance. Not my idea of "family values".....healthy orphans??? Somewhere over the years "family values" seemed to no longer include "seniors". These are the forgotten people.....they've worked hard all their lives and.......often have to choose between medications and food and even if they've planned their retirement well, they're only one serious medical condition away from losing all they've worked for.

Maybe, just maybe, if higher education was not ridiculously expensive......more people would be striving for more and not producing children they're not ready for.

Sorry for the digressions...

[ThePhiant]

dear Becky

I find it interesting that you reply to a controversial subject and then feel the need to attack the first person to reply who has more than one child.

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, you were being ATTACkED????????
honey all I did is was put some facts together

Its kind of funny to me now though that even though its not listed in my signature that you happen to remember how many kids I have. I feel so important LOL

thanks for the compliment, yes sometimes my memory works wonders
but you are making yourself more important than is necessary, I wrote about THREE PEOPLE NOT JUST YOU

This is supposed to be a community of people that supports one another not a place to be negative, I guess that is just something you like to do.

I guess it is OK for you to make negative statements about me

Now I'm sure you Lulu will reply with some other negative remark but then maybe not. Debate can be good but maybe you should think about supporting fellow members by not singling out one person who has kids.

here's another negative statement Becky
and once again NOT accurate!!! but definitely a very confusing hypothesis
no one was singled out by me, Becky
not by me...........................


LuLu

[ThePhiant]

Mykil, I want to hear what our good friend Dixon has to say about this first.
I am still hoping that he puts a class together, to teach people to do some critical thinking, that was his best offer ever!!!
we can use some of that every now and again

Oh LULU I love you but what is your real thought on this predicament we are in? Do you have an opinion, or are you just going to should this be a real issue, or shall we just let the kids inherit this mess? Productiveness is a virtue? Maybe but I think the verdict is out on that one, will we as a whole be able to get a handle on this or is it all a waste of everyone’s breath? I think the latter on pretty much everything we as a society try to do with the really productive Government we adhere to!

[Barry]

dear Becky

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, you were being ATTACkED????????

Congratulations Lulu, you managed to get a rise out of someone else.
That's enough now, both of you.

[Becky]

I do feel strongly about population control. Too many of our eath's species are going, and have already gone, extinct. I'm glad I'm a baby boomer who has a chance of being gone from this earth before all the forests are gone. When I've listened to people with 4, 5, 6 or more children bemoan the fact their children won't be able to live their lives in Sonoma County due to building restrictions, my internal reaction is: "How many of our redwoods would like us to cut down to make room for them?".

Christine your statement got me thinking about all the building that i have seen go on here in Santa Rosa in just the past 2 years. Just in one little area I have seen two new neighborhoods go up and now they are working on a 3rd. So much for the lovely grasslands that I used to drive through from time to time. Its all filled with new homes. I have heard this is supposed to be a way for Santa Rosa to improve an other wise dumpy neighborhood by building expensive homes but I often think "is this really helping?"

When I was really young I used to look at the run down neighborhoods in LA and wondered why no one was trying to improve their neighborhood. It kind of sad. I grew up in a neighborhood that was really bad so the city made huge changes and for the better. Sure they torn down blocks and blocks of homes but in return the city gave us a home depot, market, a much needed shopping center and the end result was the gangs pretty much disappeared, cruising on the blvd stopped and the neighborhood became a place you wanted to live in.

Okay so I'm going off topic here but I wonder if developers would just stop building and covering our land with more concrete if maybe that would somehow help control the sizes of our cities and protect what nature has given us.

[ThePhiant]

thank you for your sarcastic compliment, Barry
and I wasn't even trying to "attack" or "get a rise out of somebody".
you know I can do better than this!

Congratulations Lulu, you managed to get a rise out of someone else.
That's enough now, both of you.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Overpopulation and population pressure is a local phenomenon, some countries have declining populations while others expand thru new births or immigration.

https://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idb/pyramids.html

is an interesting data base from the US Census Bureau where you can see how the populations of the countries in the world are expected to grow or shrink over time, represented by age groups in a pyramid.

Compare sat Italy of Japan with the USA!

In Italy and Japan the population is graying and expected to gray even more over the next forty years. Some demographers are even concerned whether there will be enough young people to take care of things in some of these countries. Some countries try to encourage babies with stipends and so.

In the US the population is expected to grow in the next forty years, mainly because of immigration and immigrants having larger families, possibly because of their optimistic view of their future capacity to take care of their children at the level they have set for themselves.

[ThePhiant]

well what Ze No is hinting at, is what I think is the problem.
there is a problem with distribution in this world.
there is enough food in this world, yet people are dying of starvation
there is enough knowledge and medicine, yet people are dying from simple curable infections or diseases
as long as a single person can buy and occupy a large family home, there will be a need for more housing and a need for more buildable space.
single people waste and consume more per person than people living in a household, yet we encourage "independence"
is over-population a problem?
It depends on where you live and who you like to live close too

Oh LULU I love you but what is your real thought on this predicament we are in? Do you have an opinion, or are you just going to should this be a real issue, or shall we just let the kids inherit this mess? Productiveness is a virtue? Maybe but I think the verdict is out on that one, will we as a whole be able to get a handle on this or is it all a waste of everyone’s breath? I think the latter on pretty much everything we as a society try to do with the really productive Government we adhere to!

[mykil]

What about our Oceans, what about our Ozone? What you are saying doesn’t make sense to me! What about all the critters that humans are killing off, the extinctions have to stop somewhere! WE share the planet with around Fifty Million different species and we are killing off more and more everyday by propagation and over population no? WE may have enough food to go around but the rest of our world is suffering dramatically!

well what Ze No is hinting at, is what I think is the problem.
there is a problem with distribution in this world.
there is enough food in this world, yet people are dying of starvation
there is enough knowledge and medicine, yet people are dying from simple curable infections or diseases
as long as a single person can buy and occupy a large family home, there will be a need for more housing and a need for more buildable space.
single people waste and consume more per person than people living in a household, yet we encourage "independence"
is over-population a problem?
It depends on where you live and who you like to live close too

[Zeno Swijtink]

I posted an interesting article from the Atlantic on "Optimism and Overpopulation" on WaccoReader.

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27154

[ThePhiant]

Zeno's article has some parts of the puzzle
I think most things are cyclical, there's no telling why species are dying off.
most species evolved or are related to extinct species.
by next century, you might have a hard time finding people from different races and colors. good? bad?
I think there is a relationship between wealth and overpopulation
if you are rich, you have things to loose and a need to protect your assets i.e. there are too many people that are living of me
if you are poor, the more kids, the higher the chance of one of surviving to take care of you in old age
I am more concerned about proliferation (nukes) and annihilation than extinction

What about our Oceans, what about our Ozone? What you are saying doesn’t make sense to me! What about all the critters that humans are killing off, the extinctions have to stop somewhere! WE share the planet with around Fifty Million different species and we are killing off more and more everyday by propagation and over population no? WE may have enough food to go around but the rest of our world is suffering dramatically!

[ChristineL]

Zeno's article has some parts of the puzzle
I think most things are cyclical, there's no telling why species are dying off.
most species evolved or are related to extinct species.
by next century, you might have a hard time finding people from different races and colors. good? bad?
I think there is a relationship between wealth and overpopulation
if you are rich, you have things to loose and a need to protect your assets i.e. there are too many people that are living of me
if you are poor, the more kids, the higher the chance of one of surviving to take care of you in old age
I am more concerned about proliferation (nukes) and annihilation than extinction

Didn't all species evolve, and/or are related to extinct species, including us? It's easy to see why so many species are dying off, people are eliminating their habitats and poisoning or taking away their sources of food.

[ChristineL]

well what Ze No is hinting at, is what I think is the problem.
there is a problem with distribution in this world.
there is enough food in this world, yet people are dying of starvation
there is enough knowledge and medicine, yet people are dying from simple curable infections or diseases
as long as a single person can buy and occupy a large family home, there will be a need for more housing and a need for more buildable space.
single people waste and consume more per person than people living in a household, yet we encourage "independence"
is over-population a problem?
It depends on where you live and who you like to live close too

Here I go again: Define large......So not only, as a single person, should I pay more for using less resources.....because in my case I do.....my office is in my home.....(No commuting, I produce minimal garbage in only one space, have no air conditioning, keep my house around 68 degrees in the winter, have limited landscaping, etc.). But......I should be relegated to living, and working, in a studio space in town....instead of my hundred year old house in the redwoods (which by the way, houses 3 people in two "apartments"). Of course, I guess seniors, particularly single ones, should all have to live out their lives in what I call rabbit hutches (small spaces stacked on top of one another). After all, we need to make room for those who choose to over-propagate. I agree the MacMansion epedemic is a waste of space and resources and that no-one "needs" that much square footage. Yes, I still think over-population is a problem.......and even if every "single" person was forced to live in small units, you'd still have the problem that 5 children each having 3 to 5 children, and so on will still require a lot of home construction.....

Whether the earth, and it's population, is suddenly destroyed by Weapons of Mass Destruction or slowly destroyed by the destruction of natural resources, pollution and global warming......it will still be destroyed.

As for those who believe that "God" made the earth for our benefit and meant for us to dominate it.......I believe he/she will hold us accountable for our poor custodianship of this earth and all its creatures.

[ThePhiant]

yes, Christine, that was kind of my point
we have evolved from being a scavenging hunter with a lifespan of 25-30yrs,
into a 70-80 yr dominant predator.
we aren't just taking and poisoning other species sources of food away .
we are actively eliminating our own.
do you think the earth would be better off without humans?

Didn't all species evolve, and/or are related to extinct species, including us? It's easy to see why so many species are dying off, people are eliminating their habitats and poisoning or taking away their sources of food.

[ThePhiant]

but have you noticed that it is the have-nots who have large families?
but as soon as the offspring acquires some sort of wealth, the number of children go down.

[Zeno Swijtink]

but have you noticed that it is the have-nots who have large families?
but as soon as the offspring acquires some sort of wealth, the number of children go down.

The Atlantic article "Optimism and Overpopulation" I posted on WaccoReader gives a different explanation of this.

It's the optimistic that have larger families: so what looks to you as have-nots are actually people who think they will be better of than before and can afford more children. A test would be for instance to see whether recent immigrants have larger families here than similar families in their country of origin. Assuming that their getting in here has made them more optimistic about their future, while they still have the same ideas about the resources to raise a kid decently. (So separate rooms for all the kids may not be felt as a requirement for a good childhood.)

The richer people have less children because they are impressed by the large resources they think it will take to give their kids the same kind of life they have gotten used to.

[ThePhiant]

from what I know of my personal experience from about 10 Mexican families, one has 5 kids, one 3 kids (last one, 10 years later, an "accident") the rest has 1 or 2 kids and they don't want anymore. they actually didn't like the large family at home, and feel they still have a large family with cousins, aunts, uncles and the like

The Atlantic article "Optimism and Overpopulation" I posted on WaccoReader gives a different explanation of this.

It's the optimistic that have larger families: so what looks to you as have-nots are actually people who think they will be better of than before and can afford more children. A test would be for instance to see whether recent immigrants have larger families here than similar families in their country of origin. Assuming that their getting in here has made them more optimistic about their future, while they still have the same ideas about the resources to raise a kid decently. (So separate rooms for all the kids may not be felt as a requirement for a good childhood.)

The richer people have less children because they are impressed by the large resources they think it will take to give their kids the same kind of life they have gotten used to.

[Willie Lumplump]

Didn't all species evolve, and/or are related to extinct species, including us? It's easy to see why so many species are dying off, people are eliminating their habitats and poisoning or taking away their sources of food.

All species are related if you go far back enough in time, meaning about 3.8 billion years. The world is now experiencing the greatest mass extinction event since 65 million years ago when an asteroid six miles in diameter hit the earth killing off 75% of the extant species. The causes of the present extinctions are clear. Habitat destruction, chiefly the destruction of rain forests, is clearly the most important and will become even more important as man causes entire biomes to shift through global warming. The spread of invasive species is second in importance. The biologically impoverished world that we are creating now will be with the human race for a long time. It takes about five million years for the planet to recover from a mass extinction.