What The Secret means to me...

**PeteS** · 02-24-2007 02:33 PM

Posted in reply to the post by Clancy:

Since the USA, with 5% of the world's population consumes 50% of the world's resources, and accomplishes this extrodinary feat of consumption via the direct aid of the largest military machine on the planet, I'd have to say, yes, it's true.

So many wonderful, insightful comments here. This is a great conversation.

I was thinking about the discussion about Reason and Descartes' "I think therefore I am" came to mind. In the context of The Secret, I now say, "I think therefore I am what I think."

I see this demonstrated in the stories Oprah chose to showcase on her show about The Secret. If you missed that show here is a link to it.
https://whatanicewebsite.com/oprah.wmv

I find the best answer to those that see the show as having something to do with greed, or being simplistic or infantile is to see the results this movie has in real people's lives; the way it gives some people a big "aha" about their lives therefore a new perspective and ability to make new choices and move forward from where they were stuck.

I saw the movie again last night with a group and one person I talked to said she saw the movie last year and took the advice she heard from Bob Proctor; she consolidated her debt into a loan that is automatically paid each month so she no longer thinks about the debt, and focuses on her freedom to create not only a debt-free life, but life with the freedom she desires (she is retired).

Also at the showing last night, Gratitude Rocks were passed out. I do not find anything negative or greedy about remembering to be grateful for what we have in our lives right now; or, for that matter, to sell rocks to raise money for a medical center. I am grateful for this community that allows each of us to be who we are, even as we learn from each other to move and grow and evolve together into our personal power, our potential to bring peace, harmony, justice, beauty, abundance and so much more into everyday experience in this world for ourselves and all apparent others, because the true "Secret" is we are One.

Peter Stickney
https://SharePrayer.com

**"Mad" Miles** · 02-26-2007 03:57 PM

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17314883/site/newsweek/

Juggledude · 02-26-2007 08:45 PM

Posted in reply to the post by Mad:

I learned thirty years ago that I was more likely to find what I was looking for, than what I'm not looking for.

Listening to the newsweek bit, I find myself noticing that they are commenting mostly on the marketing and presentation aspects of the film/book, noting how and why it has been such a success. I'm very interested in that aspect, as it would seem to be a clue as to a very real "secret", one hidden in plain view, of how to make a buck or twenty or twenty million in this society, and if it can be done with people feeling good, all the better!

The ethics of the marketing aside, the "technology" of manifestation is not at all discussed in this report, aside from a couple brief references that seem to uphold more than debunk the concept. One can hardly refute the banal yet somehow relevant remark of Miles as quoted above, why then not take another step? And another? Each journey starts with a single step, and each great discovery came either from a question or an accident, who is to say we won't end up with either or both here?

Royce

pzZAZzy · 02-27-2007 12:35 AM

I wrote this on New Year's Day, 2007:
Last night I saw THE SECRET, again. I awoke this morning, wishing that there was a film that contained only the positives; i.e., leaving out the elephant guano, the repeating bills, the poor besot upon gay guy, etc. --granted, all important lessons --in the beginning. But, now that those messages have already made their point, I was wishing for a SECRET to watch that is 100% positive only... And here it is! --just four hours later, in my email: "The Secret 100% Positive Version". Wowie Kazowie! That's pretty fast *manifestation*, I'd say. Good thing I wasn't thinking of the elephant!

Now, I'm heading out to Test Drive a XanGo Red, Prius. ;-) ~gayla~

The Secret 100% Positive Version (3 min.)
https://video.thesecret.tv/quicktime/secrettoyou.mov
________________________________________________________________

100 quotes from "The Secret"
1. We all work with one infinite power
2. The Secret is the Law of Attraction (LOA)
3. Whatever is going on in your mind is what you are attracting
4. We are like magnets - like attract like. You become AND attract what you think
5. Every thought has a frequency. Thoughts send out a magnetic energy
6. People think about what they don't want and attract more of the same
7. Thought = creation. If these thoughts are attached to powerful emotions (good or bad) that speeds the creation
8. You attract your dominant thoughts
9. Those who speak most of illness have illness, those who speak most of prosperity have it..etc..
10. It's not "wishful" thinking.
11. You can't have a universe without the mind entering into it
12. Choose your thoughts carefully .. you are a masterpiece of your life
13. It's OK that thoughts don't manifest into reality immediately (if we saw a picture of an elephant and it instantly appeared, that would be too soon)
14. EVERYTHING in your life you have attracted .. accept that fact .. it's true.
15. Your thoughts cause your feelings
16. We don't need to complicate all the "reasons" behind our emotions. It's much simpler than that. Two categories .. good feelings, bad feelings.
17. Thoughts that bring about good feelings mean you are on the right track. Thoughts that bring about bad feelings means you are not on the right track.
18. Whatever it is you are feeling is a perfect reflection of what is in the process of becoming
19. You get exactly what you are FEELING
20. Happy feelings will attract more happy circumstances
21. You can begin feeling whatever you want (even if it's not there).. the universe will correspond to the nature of your song
22. What you focus on with your thought and feeling is what you attract into your experience
23. What you think and what you feel and what actually manifests is ALWAYS a match - no exception
24. Shift your awareness
25. "You create your own universe as you go along" Winston Churchill
26. It's important to feel good ( ( ( (((good))) ) ) )
27. You can change your emotion immediately .. by thinking of something joyful, or singing a song, or remembering a happy experience
28. When you get the hang of this, before you know it you will KNOW you are the creator
29. Life can and should be phenomenal .. and it will be when you consciously apply the Law of Attraction
30. Universe will re-arrange itself accordingly
31. Start by using this sentence for all of your wants: "I'm so happy and grateful now that.... "
32. You don't need to know HOW the universe is going to rearrange itself
33. LOA is simply figuring out for yourself what will generate the positive feelings of having it NOW
34. You might get an inspired thought or idea to help you move towards what you want faster
35. The universe likes SPEED. Don't delay, don't second-guess, don't doubt..
36. When the opportunity or impulse is there .. ACT
37. You will attract everything you require - money, people, connections.. PAY ATTENTION to what's being set in front of you
38. You can start with nothing .. and out of nothing or no way - a WAY will be provided.
39. HOW LONG??? No rules on time .. the more aligned you are with positive feelings the quicker things happen
40. Size is nothing to the universe (unlimited abundance if that's what you wish) We make the rules on size and time
41. No rules according to the universe .. you provide the feelings of having it now and the universe will respond
42. Most people offer the majority of their thought in response to what they are observing (bills in the mail, being late, having bad luck...etc..)
43. You have to find a different approach to what is through a different vantage point
44. "All that we are is a result of what we have thought" - Buddha
45. What can you do right now to turn your life around?? Gratitude
46. Gratitude will bring more into our lives immediately
47. What we think about and THANK about is what we bring about
48. What are the things you are grateful for?? Feel the gratitude.. focus on what you have right now that you are grateful for
49. Play the picture in your mind - focus on the end result
50. VISUALIZE!!! Rehearse your future
51. VISUALIZE!!! See it, feel it! This is where action begins
52. Feel the joy .. feel the happiness :o)
53. An affirmative thought is 100 times more powerful than a negative one
54. "What this power is, I cannot say. All I know is that it exists." Alexander Graham Bell
55. Our job is not to worry about the "How". The "How" will show up out of the commitment and belief in the "what"
56. The Hows are the domain of the universe. It always knows the quickest, fastest, most harmonious way between you and your dream
57. If you turn it over to the universe, you will be surprised and dazzled by what is delivered .. this is where magic and miracles happen
58. Turn it over to the universe daily.. but it should never be a chore.
59. Feel exhilarated by the whole process .. high, happy, in tune
60. The only difference between people who are really living this way is they have habituated ways of being.
61. They remember to do it all the time
62. Create a Vision Board .. pictures of what you want to attract .. every day look at it and get into the feeling state of already having acquired these wants
63. "Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life's coming attractions." Albert Einstein
64. Decide what you want .. believe you can have it, believe you deserve it, believe it's possible for you
65. Close your eyes and visualize having what you already want - and the feeling of having it already.
66. Focus on being grateful for what you have already .. enjoy it!! Then release into the universe. The universe will manifest it.
67. "Whatever the mind of man can conceive, it can achieve" W. Clement Stone
68. Set a goal so big that if you achieved it, it would blow your mind.
69. When you have an inspired thought, you must trust it and act on it.
70. How can you become more prosperous?? INTEND IT!!
71. 'Checks are coming in the mail regularly'... or change your bank statement to whatever balance you want in there... and get behind the feeling of having it.
72. Life is meant to be abundant in ALL areas...
73. Go for the sense of inner joy and peace then all outside things appear
74. We are the creators of our universe
75. Relationships: Treat yourself the way you want to be treated by others .. love yourself and you will be loved
76. Healthy respect for yourself
77. For those you work with or interact with regularly .. get a notebook and write down positive aspects of each of those people.
78. Write down the things you like most about them (don't expect change from them). Law of attraction will not put you in the same space together if you frequencies don't match
79. When you realize your potential to feel good, you will ask no one to be different in order for you to feel good.
80. You will free yourself from the cumbersome impossibilities of needing to control the world, your friends, your mate, your children....
81. You are the only one that creates your reality
82. No one else can think or feel for you .. its YOU .. ONLY YOU.
83. Health: thank the universe for your own healing. Laugh, stress free happiness will keep you healthy.
84. Immune system will heal itself
85. Parts of our bodies are replace every day, every week..etc... Within a few years we have a brand new body
86. See yourself living in a new body. Hopeful = recovery. Happy = happier biochemistry. Stress degrades the bod.
87. Remove stress from the body and the body regenerates itself. You can heal yourself
88. Learn to become still .. and take your attention away from what you don't want, and place your attention on what you wish to experience
89. When the voice and vision on the inside become more profound and clear than the opinions on the outside, then you have mastered your life
90. You are not here to try to get the world to be just as you want it. You are here to create the world around you that you choose.
91. And allow the world as others choose to see it, exist as well
92. People think that if everyone knows the power of the LOA there won't be enough to go around .. This is a lie that's been ingrained in us and makes so many greedy.
93. The truth is there is more than enough love, creative ideas, power, joy, happiness to go around.
94. All of this abundance begins to shine through a mind that is aware of it's own infinite nature. There's enough for everyone. See it. Believe it. it will show up for you.
95. So let the variety of your reality thrill you as you choose all the things you want.. get behind the good feelings of all your wants.
96. Write your script. When you see things you don't want, don't think about them, write about them, talk about them, push against them, or join groups that focus on the don't wants... remove your attention from don't wants.. and place them on do wants
97. We are mass energy. Everything is energy. EVERYTHING.
98. Don't define yourself by your body .. it's the infinite being that's connected to everything in the universe.
99. One energy field. Our bodies have distracted us from our energy. We are the infinite field of unfolding possibilities. The creative force.
100. Are your thoughts worthy of you? If not - NOW is the time to change them. You can begin right were you are right now. Nothing matters but this moment and what you are focusing your attention on.
________________________________________________________________

From Jack Canfield's website:
"It's THE SECRET every tycoon, champion and achiever has used to become the legends they are, whether or not they even knew they were using it. If you are not absolutely WOW'd by this DVD, just send us an email and you'll be entirely refunded, even your shipping and handling. You won't even have to send it back."
The Secret (89 minutes) https://www.jackcanfield.com/page/?PageID=63

**"Mad" Miles** · 02-27-2007 04:09 PM

"Listening to the newsweek bit, I find myself noticing that they are commenting mostly on the marketing and presentation aspects of the film/book....the "technology" of manifestation is not at all discussed in this report.... Royce"

Royce,

Your characterization of the Newsweek article (excerpted above) leaves out the criticisms of LOA/The Secret contained in the article.

The article refers to:

Negative and debilitating emotional states that psychologists warn may occur if a belief in LOA does not result in the desired goals.

Debunking of the quantum physics claims of LOA adherents. (Also ably stated previously here by others in the "skeptics" camp. Dixon? Sonomamarc? In the house!!! Whoohooo!)

Pointing out that "The Secret" is a repeat of a long tradition of feel-good, mind-over-matter claims and self enrichment in the history of Western Culture dating back to at least the mid-nineteenth century. Many of those claiments turned out to be hucksters shilling for themselves and others and shucking the marks for an easy buck.

Etc.

It's one thing to say that mood and attitude effect how one perceives and responds to external (and internal) reality. It is another to say that what one thinks has a direct and controlling effect, independent of any physical behavioral actions in the world, on the material/spiritual/body worlds.

"Reality", "Reason", are all debatable concepts (and things.) What is not debated by most educated people is that they exist, although what we make of them is highly contested.

My big problem with LOA and similar belief systems is that the reasonable conclusion, based on the claims of these systems, is that anyone who is suffering in any way, is poor, is oppressed, basically anyone whose life is fucked, has simply not thought long and hard enough to escape their suffering, and "manifest" a better life for themselves.

(Isn't it interesting that the word manifest means to make by hand. Not think up, imagine and "Poof" it's real!)

I find this idea to be unmitigated bullshit. People suffer in large part because of a world arranged economically and socially to exclude large numbers of them from the good things in life. A world based on socioeconomic class in which the few get away with insufficiently compensating the many for their time and effort in creating the goodies that the few are in the position to hoard and control for themselves.

Do the few choose that arrangement? Yes and no, This social system is the result of inherited behaviors and institutions. Those behaviors and institutions are self-regulating and self-perpetuating.

We're born into this world and no one asked us if it was what we wanted beforehand. Or if I was asked I have no clear and distinct memory of making this choice! (Sic.)

I'm not a reductionistic basic fundamentalist orthodox Marxist. The Social is much more complex and interesting than simple economic exploitation. I spent twelve years studying ideas about all of this. There's no way I can communicate the results in an online discussion thread. But here's a tidbit.

Jean Paul Sartre, who I admired in my twenties until I was clued in to his support of authoritarian Marxist-Leninist regimes in China and elsewhere in the 60's, and who basically was ripping off Heidegger without acknowledgement and oversimplifying H's ideas (and yeah, Heidegger was a Nazi, so what does that say about the quality of his ideas?) had a concept called the Practico-Inert.

This was Sartre's attempt to reconcile Existentialist Freedom (You always have a choice, because even in the most abysmal and horrific circumstances, you could kill yourself to escape. You're free Pilgrim! Do whatever you want as long as you're authentic in doing it!!! Yay!) with Marxist Economic Determinism (The work you do determines who you are and what choices you can make.)

Essentially the Practico-Inert is everything around you that you cannot control, by your thinking, your perception, your actions. You can't turn a rock into a loaf of bread, no matter how hard you concentrate. (Unless you're Jesus or ? Some supernatural Being with extra-human powers. Hey didja see they dug up Jesus's bones? Or so some fringe archeologists claim.)

And please don't tell me that if you break that rock up, fertilize and water the resulting soil and grow some wheat in it, etc. you can turn that rock into bread. Yeah, in that way you can but it takes more than just "intention" to commit that miracle.

Other examples of the Practico-Inert are: Fixed social roles that stubbornly refuse to change, even with generations of effort to transform them. Social roles such as: Master/Slave, Male/Female, Insider/Outsider, Self/Other. We seem to be able to reinterpret them, mess with them, and rail against them, but so far they haven't gone away.

So how does LOA/The Secret handle the Practico-Inert? Simply deny its existence?

Just thought I'd ask.

"Mad" Miles

Juggledude · 02-27-2007 08:50 PM

Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

Your characterization of the Newsweek article (excerpted above) leaves out the criticisms of LOA/The Secret contained in the article.

The article refers to:

Negative and debilitating emotional states that psychologists warn may occur if a belief in LOA does not result in the desired goals.

Debunking of the quantum physics claims of LOA adherents. (Also ably stated previously here by others in the "skeptics" camp. Dixon? Sonomamarc? In the house!!! Whoohooo!)

Lol, what fun! in the house, representin' West County, it's the Voice of Royce, comin atcha with "Mad" Miles to hash out some details, are you ready to Ruuumbbllle!

Sorry, I digress. I must admit to missing the specific criticisms you cite above, though they certainly sound reasonable. I would not doubt that an unrealistic interpretation of the oversimplification (as may be suggested by the movie, the secret) of the LoA principles may result in debilitating emotional states in those who vest emotionally in them to an unhealthy extreme. However, the same could be and has been said (Dixon, woot!) of fundamentalist Christian beliefs, and could possibly even be proven true for an unhealthy emotional vesting in the purely rational. To single out LoA as being dangerous seems overly simplistic.

As for the quantum physics claims, again, oversimplification the Secret may be guilty of, but to toss the baby out with the bathwater is pretty hard on the continued growth of the family. I specifically heard cited reference in the newsweek piece about some quantum experiments which I had not yet been aware of, showing effect of thought on some physical system over a given distance. Without the specifics of this experiment, debate on this salient point is futile (any research volunteers out there?) but it would seem to support one of the general directions which I understood quantum physics to be progressing, that awareness and conciousness plays a bigger part than was previously understood in classical physics.

Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

Pointing out that "The Secret" is a repeat of a long tradition of feel-good, mind-over-matter claims and self enrichment in the history of Western Culture dating back to at least the mid-nineteenth century. Many of those claiments turned out to be hucksters shilling for themselves and others and shucking the marks for an easy buck.

Ya, that goes back to the marketing viewpoint. Can you argue that they did market this concept well? I'll leave the ethics of marketing for another discussion, can we agree that marketing and the self enrichment that is realized from it can be applied to just about anything, good or bad?

From the mere fact that money is being made on this concept, and has been for more years than we've been around, we can not logically conclude that the concept is bogus.

Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

My big problem with LOA and similar belief systems is that the reasonable conclusion, based on the claims of these systems, is that anyone who is suffering in any way, is poor, is oppressed, basically anyone whose life is fucked, has simply not thought long and hard enough to escape their suffering, and "manifest" a better life for themselves.
(Isn't it interesting that the word manifest means to make by hand. Not think up, imagine and "Poof" it's real!)
I find this idea to be unmitigated bullshit. People suffer in large part because of a world arranged economically and socially to exclude large numbers of them from the good things in life. A world based on socioeconomic class in which the few get away with insufficiently compensating the many for their time and effort in creating the goodies that the few are in the position to hoard and control for themselves.

Do the few choose that arrangement? Yes and no, This social system is the result of inherited behaviors and institutions. Those behaviors and institutions are self-regulating and self-perpetuating.

We're born into this world and no one asked us if it was what we wanted beforehand. Or if I was asked I have no clear and distinct memory of making this choice! (Sic.)

I may be wrong here, but I have not heard this "reasonable conclusion" expressed by anyone touting LoA, by the Secret, or by anyone except those in opposition to this concept. I consider myself reasonable, and I do not come to that conclusion. Back to the oversimplification analogy, yes, given the brutal reduction of LoA Think=Happen, I can see where your conclusion comes from. But no "reasonable" person is going to put it that simply. That's obvious, or we all be driving BMW's or flying around in Jetson's pods, telling Mr. Spacely to go jump out a window. There's more subtlety involved, the real world is a complicated place. Just one of the many factors which would be in play in an imaginary world that worked solely on the LoA principles would be every person who imagined himself to be superior to another person would have an innate paradox if that person also imagined him/herself superior. Since nature abhors a paradox, logic and reason would dictate that there are other factors at work, some hundreds of them seen or inferred, possibly as many yet to be discovered.

I enjoy your thoughts on the social dynamics and economic realities of our political society. These very real influences combine with a possibly infinite number of variables to result in the reality we have today, which can be arguably perceived in as many ways as there are individuals. let's see, possibly infinite to the 6.5 billionth power. Pretty wide open for interpretation, if you ask me. That's what LoA is about for me, applying that interpretation, to affect (not create in an absolute sense) my interpretation, and to whatever extent that I am able, the interpretation of those around me. After all, is not wealth simply an agreement? An agreement made within society's rules, yes, but a simple agreement nonetheless.

Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

Heidegger was a Nazi, so what does that say about the quality of his ideas?

I would have bet good money you would be the last person on the board to stoop to such a blatant ad hominem remark, unless there is an underlying level of sarcasm that I'm missing?

Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

...had a concept called the Practico-Inert.

This was Sartre's attempt to reconcile Existentialist Freedom (You always have a choice, because even in the most abysmal and horrific circumstances, you could kill yourself to escape. You're free Pilgrim! Do whatever you want as long as you're authentic in doing it!!! Yay!) with Marxist Economic Determinism (The work you do determines who you are and what choices you can make.)

Essentially the Practico-Inert is everything around you that you cannot control, by your thinking, your perception, your actions. You can't turn a rock into a loaf of bread, no matter how hard you concentrate. (Unless you're Jesus or ? Some supernatural Being with extra-human powers. Hey didja see they dug up Jesus's bones? Or so some fringe archeologists claim.)

And please don't tell me that if you break that rock up, fertilize and water the resulting soil and grow some wheat in it, etc. you can turn that rock into bread. Yeah, in that way you can but it takes more than just "intention" to commit that miracle.

Other examples of the Practico-Inert are: Fixed social roles that stubbornly refuse to change, even with generations of effort to transform them. Social roles such as: Master/Slave, Male/Female, Insider/Outsider, Self/Other. We seem to be able to reinterpret them, mess with them, and rail against them, but so far they haven't gone away.

So how does LOA/The Secret handle the Practico-Inert? Simply deny its existence?

Just thought I'd ask.

"Mad" Miles

Though I must bow to your studied knowledge of Sartre and his works, from what you quote, he seems a bit hung up on the notion of control. We cannot 'control' anything outside ourselves (back to the notions brought up in Sonomamark vs Donallan) but we can 'affect' things outside ourselves.

The rock you already answered, thanks, that was good thinking. Nowhere I have experienced does LoA state that "intention" is all it will take. Intention is the starting place, the seed, the fuel and drive behind action, it is action which will create and manifest (by hand!), and inspired action will arise from clearly stated intent. This process will result in a measurable effect on the world around us, whether it be bread or wealth, it will be there.

The "other" aspects of Practico-inert seem to be more along the lines of agreements, albeit unconscious or unchosen ones. True, some slaves and those born into poor circumstance may not even be aware of the agreements they have made, or that were more likely made for them, but agreements they are nonetheless. The observed permanence of these agreements has more to do with their momentum and social inertia than with any inherent or intrinsic property they might possess. It is purely through intent and concious action that we have dented these edifices, shaking some to their very cores, and by continued intent and awareness shall we rise above the shackles of thought they embody.

Royce

**"Mad" Miles** · 02-28-2007 12:17 AM

Royce, My Man!

Great response. Nothing much that I wish to quibble about.

I wrote, "Heidegger was a Nazi."

You replied "I would have bet good money you would be the last person on the board to stoop to such a blatant ad hominem remark, unless there is an underlying level of sarcasm that I'm missing?"

Actually no sarcasm intended, he really was a Nazi, a card carrying, dues paid up member of the Nazi Party. He stood aside when eminent Jews, some of them his colleagues that he had worked with for years without any problem, were fired for simply being Jewish. And then there's the Holocaust...

This controversy in the High Theory community (What I, with intended gentle sarcasm have often called "Trendy Theory") blew up back in the late eighties and early nineties, was all the rage, and is one of the damning criticisms trotted out to try and flush the PoMo movement. It is a criticism that I find unpersuasive, Heidegger wrote before, during and after his Nazi period. His close disciple, lover and student was Hannah Arendt, who was Jewish. Since I quit following the debates in Metatheory circa 1987 I cannot summarize the issue beyond this.

"Though I must bow to your studied knowledge of Sartre and his works, from what you quote, he seems a bit hung up on the notion of control. We cannot 'control' anything outside ourselves (back to the notions brought up in Sonomamark vs Donallan) but we can 'affect' things outside ourselves."

For control, read, "have instrumental influence over". Language is always an inadequate summary.

"agreements, albeit unconscious or unchosen ones."

Sorry, you've lost me there. What is an agreement, if it is not conscious or chosen?

If LOA means that one must conceive of an action before it is possible to take that action, well, Duh! Or at least it applies to considered actions, there're other kinds: accidental, inadvertant, unconscious, or action as the result of inaction.

But LOA as I evidently superficially understand it seems to be more of a form of "Magical Thinking". If I think hard enough, long enough, passionately enough, that mental effort will "in and of itself" affect/effect a physical material change in the world outside (of my mental processes). Been there, done that, doesn't work. At least for me. Or am I simply not sufficiently enlightened?

I gave up arguing just for the sake of argument back in my twenties. I choose to discuss/debate/argue if I feel/believe/think that something real is at stake. So at this point I wonder, where are we going with this?

Tonight I went to a reception for and presentation by Lynne Stewart and a representative of the Mobilization to Free Mumia Abu Jamal. There was a small crowd, granted it is a Tuesday night. But Lynne Stewart is the lawyer who has been made an example of to scare all the other defense attorneys into toeing the line in the War on Terror. i.e. to accept or at least acquiesce to the many unconstitutional violations of due process and the First Amendment in the name of National Security.

Mumia's supporter made a very convincing and detailed case for his innocence and his targeting by the Philadelphia Police to take out one of their most effective critics in the late 70's.

The stories both told were outrageous (in the bad sense) frightening and unfortunately a continuation of racist, classist oppression of the poor, working and non-white communities in our society.

These are real fights, fights that everyone is involved in whether they want to admit it to themselves or not. And to win these fights it will take many, many people in the streets demanding justice and freedom for everyone.

Thinking that it's a good idea and we really, really want it is yes, a first step, but that step was taken long ago and keeps being taken over and over. What has made positive change is a demand which cannot be ignored or detoured around and which requires physical action in the real world by tens of thousands, millions of everyday people.

Selling us books and DVD's that say we as individuals can get what we want if we have the "right intention" is not, in my mind, the best way to motivate most people. Just because something is unpleasant, doesn't mean that by ignoring it and thinking about something pleasant and fun and peaceful and soothing and pretty, will make the "bad men" (or whatever it is) go away.

Joining together in numbers too large to ignore, and facing them/it is the only thing that has ever worked to change things for the better.

Do ideas, spiritual movements, cultural tropes, ideological shifts begin the process? Certainement. But that's just the beginning, when we get bogged down in navel gazing focused solely on our individual selves, then .... nothing changes.

Has anyone else on this board noticed that the number of views that posts get vary by topic? I know that those numbers only indicate how many people have looked at a post on the website, not those who get emails and read or do not read an item. (Let alone which topics people are subscribed to and which ones they aren't.) But what I've noticed based on the available numbers is that interest in posts roughly follow this order:

1. Pet Care, Animal Rescue, Animal Rights
2. Stuff for sale
3. Real Estate offers and requests
4. Workshops, classes, events of a spiritual nature
5. Miscellaneous
6. Calls for political action or interest

1. being the most viewed, 6. being the least.

Now I've pondered this question quite a while, why do the pressing needs of society as a whole occupy my attention (and action) when most other people seem to think politics is a waste of time? (I also think most conventional, mainstream, maintain the status quo politics are a waste of time myself but ... ya gotta do something to keep "them" from going too far, destroying life as we know it, ripping us all off, etc., etc....)

I have lots of theories about the passivity of people, some of which I've expressed on this board in the recent past.

One that I haven't mentioned is the 60's counterculture split between the activists who were focused on stopping the Vietnam War (and other issues of social justice) and the beginning of what came to be called "New Age" when syncretic borrowings from Hinduism and Buddhism began to attract practitioners who withdrew from the outside world. Yes, there were some who tried doing both. Reclaiming is an Anarcho/Pagan effort to combine Earth focused spirituality with political activism. But that didn't start until the eighties.

I think that split was a huge mistake. I think it helped deflate the movement for positive social change. And I've lived, as an activist, with the frustrating consequences that followed.

Thought without action is futile; action without thought is potentially destructive. The two working together... is the basis of hope.

And everything I've written here and many times before is an inadequate formulation of the problem(s). Partly because I too often partake in one of the basic flaws in the way we tend to think. Binary Opposition, either/or, yes/no, good/bad, up/down, in/out, etc.

And saying it's all ONE, is even more limiting and simplistic. The greatest trite cliché of them all.

Things are complicated and intricately interrelated. The best explanatory system is the one that includes the greatest number of comprehensible and practically usable variables. But that's hard to do and apparently people prefer easy, simple answers that make them feel good about themselves, each other and don't require too much effort in the thinking department.

And that, my fellow waccobites is one of the many reasons our world is so fucked up for so many people. Not us happy quasi-rural suburbanites in the garden spot of the world, one of the most educated, enlightened, peaceful and wealthy spots on the planet. We've got it relatively good.

But this isn't all there is, there's a big wide wild world out there where no matter how hard you concentrate, no matter how hard you try to put your dreams and desires into action, you're living in a world constrained by forces completely outside your control and to the extent that those forces are conscious at all, they don't give a shit about you. Unless you can be exploited for a profit.

And even if we're not personally rich (monetarily) we benefit directly from that system, no matter whether we agree or disagree with it. The "we" being us happy Eloi here in the garden where the Morlocks permit us to gambol about.

Sweet Dreams, Mine are of Liberation for Everyone,

"Mad" Miles

Juggledude · 02-28-2007 09:53 PM

Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

Actually no sarcasm intended, he really was a Nazi, a card carrying, dues paid up member of the Nazi Party. He stood aside when eminent Jews, some of them his colleagues that he had worked with for years without any problem, were fired for simply being Jewish. And then there's the Holocaust...

This controversy in the High Theory community (What I, with intended gentle sarcasm have often called "Trendy Theory") blew up back in the late eighties and early nineties, was all the rage, and is one of the damning criticisms trotted out to try and flush the PoMo movement. It is a criticism that I find unpersuasive, Heidegger wrote before, during and after his Nazi period. His close disciple, lover and student was Hannah Arendt, who was Jewish. Since I quit following the debates in Metatheory circa 1987 I cannot summarize the issue beyond this.

Your summary of Hidegger's character may well be on point, I certainly wouldn't hire him based on that resume. The ad hominem nature of your point is still blatant. Simple association with a group, or, for that matter, being a heinous evildoer himself does not rob any particular theory he may have created of merit.

I must confess to being at a bit of a loss with your next paragraph, as the referents to the High Theory Community, Metatheory and Heidegger's association with them are beyond the scope of my current reading. I had some fun with the Wiki on the PoMo movement, that'd be an enjoyable topic for another thread, I think.

Your usage of "control" may lie at the crux of our apparent disagreement re: LoA, as simply as the differentiation between "instrumental influence" and "significant influence". Instrumental in my thinking is closely related to affect, as I referenced, whereas the condemnation you propose seems to be related to an inference that LoA claims significant influence, or control. Undoubtedly we both agree there are many factors bearing on any situation, the very least of which, or most, depending on your viewpoint, being the myriad of influential thought processes being generated by the effected players in any given situation.

As for the concept of unconscious or unchosen agreements, my reference is to those indoctrinations of our particular society, those 'agreements' foist upon us by our parents, our teachers, the media, and reinforced by our peers throughout our developmental process. Many of these agreements in how to behave, how to act, how to relate to others are instilled at a pre-verbal age, let alone an age capable of entering into an agreement with the logical and rational reasoning we as adults would bring to the process. These mores are instilled so deeply that we oft times refer to them as core values, and treat them as absolutes, as I feel you have done by referencing them in your description of the Practico-inert. I'd like to propose a redefinition of them as "Impractico-momenti", ingrained, often outmoded agreements ingrained by the social momentum of our particular society.

The efforts you make on behalf of your beliefs, the lengths you move against the tide of passivity are laudable. I thank you for your work, and recognize it's value. I also am a bit confused with the relation your activism has to the LoA, the Secret, and the like. Pondering this thought, I can only conclude that in your mind, you hold an idea, an idea(L) of a better world, one where equality and justice hold greater sway in the day to day machinations of us naked apes. By holding this idea, and concentrating on it's ramifications, it's potential, and even more viscerally it's feel, you seem to be moved to inspired action, that of attending Lynne's presentation, posting your conclusions, affecting (significantly and instrumentally) the thoughts of and therefore the nature of the community around you. In short, you are using "the Secret", you are manifesting that which you desire through diligent application of the Laws of Attraction, you are potent!

Namaste,

Royce

**"Mad" Miles** · 03-01-2007 10:59 PM

Dear Juggledude/Royce,

You wrote:

"Your usage of "control" may lie at the crux of our apparent disagreement re: LoA, as simply as the differentiation between "instrumental influence" and "significant influence". Instrumental in my thinking is closely related to affect, as I referenced, whereas the condemnation you propose seems to be related to an inference that LoA claims significant influence, or control."

Hmmmm..... I'm afraid I've lost interest in this discussion and won't pursue clarifying this distinction between instrumental and significant. It's getting too fuzzy for me.

"The efforts you make on behalf of your beliefs, the lengths you move against the tide of passivity are laudable. I thank you for your work, and recognize it's value. .... you are manifesting that which you desire through diligent application of the Laws of Attraction, you are potent!"

You flatter me Sir!

Onward,

"Mad" Miles

P.S. Barry, I'm getting used to the new look and functions. So, you'd like some compensation for your time and effort? My check for $24 in annual membership will anon. Thank you for your work!

"Reno 911: Miami" mini-review (Miles On Movies!) is percolating in my synapses, tomorrow I'll go to see "The Lives of Others", today I ate at a new Soul Food place in SR that I want to add to the Favorite Restaurants list, I'm invited to review Nirvana for this board in exchange for a free meal (thanks Jane!) and I have to schedule a medical exam for the proffered teaching job at San Quentin. (The forms auspiciously arrived via snailmail this afternoon. I've been waiting since the interview on Jan. 24 to find out if they would hire me.) So many things to do, think and write about...what to prioritize?

I hope and "expect" to see everyone at David Rovics on April 17th. I'm picking up leaflets tomorrow. If you ever want to organize anything in this county, get Susan Lamont to help you. She's the most efficient and productive companera that I've ever worked with in my thirty years of grass-roots activism. She Rocks! And if you ever need a landscape designer, check her out at www.lamontscapes.com

"M"M

**Sonomamark** · 03-01-2007 11:47 PM

Hello...Without going back into great detail, again: quantum mechanics do not apply beyond the quantum scale. The experiments described in Newsweek (abstracted in places like ScienceDaily.com long since) do not in any way indicate that thought or consciousness have any impact on physical reality at our scale--merely in OUR ABILITY TO PERCEIVE physical reality AT THE QUANTUM SCALE, which is quite a different thing. At the quantum scale, "what is real" may be generally said to be far less definitive. Things have a certain probability of being one way or another, and which way they are can be crystallized by the act of trying to look at them.

That's true of a quark--it is not true of a toaster oven. We may be able to create technology which uses the nature of quantum-scale phenomena to transfer information at great distance, but that in no way means that such a process can occur naturally through the physical activity of our brains, the experiential perception of which is commonly referred to as our "minds", "souls", and/or "consciousnesses".

There is no credible, repeatable experimental data extant, to my knowledge, which in any way implies that "awareness and consciousness play a bigger part than was previously understood in classical (by which I presume you mean "relativistic" and not, say, Newtonian) physics."

As to the rest of it, the psychosocial part, I wish I could understand why it seems people must be so extreme about all this. Isn't it enough to know that with confidence, positive attitude, and freedom from the inhibiting factors of self-abusing messages we accumulate as we grow up, a person has a better chance than not to be happy and succeed in one's goals--so long as they are within the realm of the possible--without having to go as far as to believe that if they just achieve "the right state of consciousness", they can walk through walls and fly?

Of course, those greater odds of success and happiness presume that one isn't hit by a drunk driver (or a meteor) and killed. Maybe that's why New Age magical thinkers need so strongly to believe that their minds can be all-powerful: because being realistic and recognizing that there are things we cannot control means being open to the idea that however "evolved" and "powerful" a person is, s/he can still be snuffed out in an instant of bad luck. A terrifying powerlessness. We are all at the mercy of the Dark Hand, and sometimes, it just takes us, or those near to us. A very hard thing to look squarely at and accept.

When you get right down to it, finding a Get Out of Death Free card is still what most religiosity is about.

Be it Yahwists and heaven (harps, virgins, whatever, take your pick), Buddhists and getting off the Wheel of Suffering, Pagans and reincarnation, it seems that for whatever reason, religious traditions just don't seem to teach here's how to be happy, here's how to be a good person, do it now, it's over really fast and this is all you get. You'd think there would be a few that do, but I'm not aware of any.

SonomaMark

Posted in reply to the post by Juggledude:

I specifically heard cited reference in the newsweek piece about some quantum experiments which I had not yet been aware of, showing effect of thought on some physical system over a given distance. Without the specifics of this experiment, debate on this salient point is futile (any research volunteers out there?) but it would seem to support one of the general directions which I understood quantum physics to be progressing, that awareness and conciousness plays a bigger part than was previously understood in classical physics.
Royce

**Nemea Laessig** · 03-09-2007 02:08 PM

There is a new article in Salon this week about the pitfalls and dangers of "The Secret", now being promoted by Oprah, that I find very in-depth and to-the-point.

https://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/20...ret/print.html

What do y'all think?

**Nemea Laessig** · 03-09-2007 02:10 PM

Once it happened that Bankei, a Zen Master, was working in his garden. A seeker came and he asked Banki,
"Gardener, where is the Master?"

Banki laughed and said, "By that door - inside you will find the Master."

So the man went round and inside he saw Banki sitting in an armchair, the same man who had been the gardener outside. The seeker said, "Are you kidding? Get down from this chair! This is sacrilegious! You aren't paying respect to the Master!"

Banki got down, sat on the floor and said "Now you will not find the Master in the chair, because I am the Master."

It was difficult, it was impossible for the man to see that a great master could be so ordinary. He left... and he missed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bankei was preaching quietly to his followers one day when his talk was interrupted by a priest from another sect. This sect believed in the power of miracles.

The priest boasted that the founder of his religion could stand on the bank of the river with a brush in his hand and write a holy name on a piece of paper held by an assistant on the opposite bank of the river.
Then he asked, "What miracles can you do?"

Bankei replied: "Only one. When I am hungry I eat and when I am thirsty I drink."

The only miracle, the impossible miracle (or secret) is to be just ordinary. The longing of the mind is to be extraordinary. The minds ego thirsts for recognition. And THIS is the miracle - when you accept your nobodyness, when you can be just as ordinary as anybody else, when you don't ask for recognition, when you can exist as if you are not existing.
Power is never spiritual. People who do 'special' miracles are not spiritual in any way, just spreading magic in the name of religion, which is dangerous.

Your mind may say "What type of miracle is this? - when hungry I eat, when sleepy I sleep. But what Bankai is saying is when you feel hungry hungry your mind says "No, I should fast." When you don't feel hungry, when the stomach is filled, the mind says, "Go on eating, the food is delicious." Always your mind interferes.
Bankei is saying, "I flow with nature. Whatsoever my whole being feels, I do it. There is no fragmentary mind manipulating my flowing with nature."

Osho
Roots and Wings
pg.212-221

**PeteS** · 03-09-2007 03:29 PM

Thank you Namea for this post, Bankei is wonderful, I am very pleased to meet him.

In terms of this discussion about The Secret, I especially like the quote:

Bankei is saying, "I flow with nature. Whatsoever my whole being feels, I do it. There is no fragmentary mind manipulating my flowing with nature."

This, in my mind, is exactly what The Secret is saying/advising/outlining/exampling: Get rid of the fragmentary mind manipulating my flowing with nature. When this is accomplished one is happy because one is one's self, truly one's self whatever that may be for the individual expression of the wholeness.

Bankei may be the source of the Zen saying: Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water; After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. We are all enlightened; when we finally see/experience/know/believe this truth that is the only change that occurs; we are still human beings having a spiritual experience... or is that spiritual beings having a human experience... or is there a difference?

Which brings me to another point I'd like to share: In my experience, study and learning, there is nothing outside the spiritual realm; all that exists is within the wholeness of existence and is therefore spiritual. It is like enlightenment, always here, it is our choice whether we see it, experience it, proceed in our daily lives from it consciously; regardless we are always immersed in the spiritual and are proceeding from it.

Enjoy yourselves, and be happy,

Peter
SharePrayer

**Sonomamark** · 03-09-2007 10:29 PM

Not to be (too) contrarian, Peter, but what if, as the evidence appears to suggest, nothing is "spiritual", and what some call the experience of "spirit" is just their perception of physical electrochemical reactions cascading through their nervous systems?

If you go with the preponderance of evidence, "the whole of existence" is just physics. A feeling of "flowing with nature"? Just a feeling: neurochemistry in action. Love? Likewise. Whatever Bankei is "feeling with his whole body"? Just neurological perception of physical events: sensory input, processed by a neural net which is to a significant degree self-programming. Doesn't mean the feeling isn't real, or worth acting on--just that it isn't magical, isn't supernatural, isn't ordained by some Big Face in the Sky, or some Cosmic Plan. Just neurons firing, glands squirting.

I posit this: that a human being needs not subscribe to superstition (belief in anything supernatural, like gods, magic, or an afterlife) to live a full, complete, fulfilled life. I propose that we need not chase castles in the air to be happy and complete.

The challenge in this is that we must then contend with all the complexity, paradox, and fundamental cosmic apathy as to our welfare which our lives display. Would that it were so easy as to "simply be our whole selves". I suggest that Charles Manson did that, and it didn't work out so well.

The fundamental error in "spiritual" infomercials like "The Secret" and "What the Bleep" is that they 1) radically twist science to make it sound as though it agrees with the religious proselytizers who made the movies; and 2) repeats the tired drumbeat that the world as it is is not enough. That we have to believe in some esoteric nonsense in order to be fulfilled.

We don't. It's a beautiful, dangerous, tragic, gorgeous, unfair, exciting, paradoxical, frustrating, random, delightful, horrifying world. Life is all of these, and too, too brief. All that is true. Looking clearly at that is the work before us, I suggest: we either do it, or drug ourselves with fantasies.

We don't have to be deluded to be complete, fulfilled, or happy. So I believe.

Sonomamark

Posted in reply to the post by PeteS:

Thank you Namea for this post, Bankei is wonderful, I am very pleased to meet him.

In terms of this discussion about The Secret, I especially like the quote:

Bankei is saying, "I flow with nature. Whatsoever my whole being feels, I do it. There is no fragmentary mind manipulating my flowing with nature."

This, in my mind, is exactly what The Secret is saying/advising/outlining/exampling: Get rid of the fragmentary mind manipulating my flowing with nature. When this is accomplished one is happy because one is one's self, truly one's self whatever that may be for the individual expression of the wholeness.

Bankei may be the source of the Zen saying: Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water; After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. We are all enlightened; when we finally see/experience/know/believe this truth that is the only change that occurs; we are still human beings having a spiritual experience... or is that spiritual beings having a human experience... or is there a difference?

Which brings me to another point I'd like to share: In my experience, study and learning, there is nothing outside the spiritual realm; all that exists is within the wholeness of existence and is therefore spiritual. It is like enlightenment, always here, it is our choice whether we see it, experience it, proceed in our daily lives from it consciously; regardless we are always immersed in the spiritual and are proceeding from it.

Enjoy yourselves, and be happy,

Peter
SharePrayer

**"Mad" Miles** · 03-09-2007 10:52 PM

Mark,

Dude! You Rock!!

"M"M

**Tristique** · 03-11-2007 11:01 AM

I would like to know how the numbers rank for and against the Secret.

I've noticed personally that my male friends oppose it strongly, while my women friends most unanimously support it.

Can we have a poll?

How many men support/agree with the Secret concepts....
How many men disagree/oppose....

How many women support/agree....
How many women disagree....

Trish

**Clancy** · 03-11-2007 11:45 AM

I don't see it as either/or. There's some sound psychological and spiritual truths in the concept, but no matter how hard I visualize it, I will never become president of Greenland or a sumi wrestler.

I'd say on a scale of 1-10 of agreement with the Secret's principles, I'm about a 5.

Posted in reply to the post by jazzmuse:

I would like to know how the numbers rank for and against the Secret.

**Barry** · 03-11-2007 12:14 PM

Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark:

Not to be (too) contrarian, Peter, but what if, as the evidence appears to suggest, nothing is "spiritual", and what some call the experience of "spirit" is just their perception of physical electrochemical reactions cascading through their nervous systems?

There's still the mystery... What about our soul? What is really going on here? What about this thing called life? All the electrochemical reactions are still possible after the moment of death as before it. Whatever "life" really is, it has many dimensions that we have not begun to understand scientifically, and we may never fully understand, including the mysterious

spark behind it all that I'll call divinity.

Posted in reply to the post by jazzmuse:

Can we have a poll?

Manifested!

Jill · 03-12-2007 07:57 PM

What I'd like to know is how to apply all that stuff to my life. For the past few months I've been using affirmations as well as the law of attraction and I'm still single, I have no job and I have several bills to pay.

So what am I missing??!?!?

**Zeno Swijtink** · 03-13-2007 12:05 PM

Hi Jill,

Maybe you should use the law of unattraction! Look at me: I've been getting to know new friends for some months, constantly telling them I wasn't looking for anything committed. And now: bingo!! Splendid T.D. and I fell in love!

Tell us something more about how you have been using affirmations and the law of attraction if you like. Maybe you have been trying too hard and need to throw in some off-key dissonants.

Zeno

Posted in reply to the post by Jill:

What I'd like to know is how to apply all that stuff to my life. For the past few months I've been using affirmations as well as the law of attraction and I'm still single, I have no job and I have several bills to pay.

So what am I missing??!?!?

**nicofrog** · 03-15-2007 12:18 PM

HEY GUYS!
And Girls(although I think its us axe wielding ,water hauling guys that are more stirred up by this juicy topic) hey babe ,you can sit there and visualize all day, but thats not gonna get a bucket made and the water up from the river.Then again, if she falls asleep while she's meditating I'll just bet You end up getting the water AND the firewood gathered! Bingo secret solved!
Is the secret to get someone else to do the work!?? I remember a day when I was young and in "College" and I got a ride with an old lady in a ratted out pickup headed from Marin back to Sonoma,full of wonder bread.
I said "whats all the bread for?" ."pigs" she said"where ya ' headed?";
"School" said I..she said "Hey ,maybe you can answer a question for me,When everybody gets an education,who's gonna do all the work?"
I was stumped,but at least we don't have to worry about that..in 99 1%
of the people on earth had a degree, I'll bet now it's.08% with population going up as fast as it is! at least in Ca. we've built most of one college in the last 10 years,(lack of funding,busy building 51 prisons).
Hey Dixon try going to a kirtan and thinking of your self as the deity!
suddenly its a birthday party and lots of fun. You see folks here it is .
There is Spirit,whether it exists only within human vibe,or as an outside entity is very debatable , I have been lucky enough to experience
It directly with native Americans ,using dream- meditation -and medicine work, correlations of informative symbolism with actual psychic phenomena and the works.Animals Plants and er well stones and everything else are part of it . And I would have to agree with the Fem. maj. that this stuff does work, as an addendum to your tool belt, don't throw away the axe
or your cynicism about the work shop woo woo's.Try telling a gazelle in a lions jaws about Manifestation.
Mark ,I found this paragraph a little rabble rousing,one sided and unfair
spirituality,or disagreement with the current Science is not necessarily
Religion. and where did you get infomercials? oh maybe the people will sell a book related to the topic? well yeah but thats true of any movie,and "What the bleep "was not selling anything that I know of!
""
The fundamental error in "spiritual" infomercials like "The Secret" and "What the Bleep" is that they 1) radically twist science to make it sound as though it agrees with the religious proselytizers who made the movies; and 2) repeats the tired drumbeat that the world as it is is not enough. That we have to believe in some esoteric nonsense in order to be fulfilled""

I would offer that the concept(Poorly named secret) is not about
fulfillment,but simply an attitude adjustment toward a better world.
spirituality is a way to get more in touch with our nature and nature in general ,. Religion is crowd control . My dad was an atheist,I agreed with him whole heartedly till I got down with my indigenous friends, now I believe in everything,but watch out cause that includes Donald duck ,the tooth fairy Santa Claus and the great pumpkin.
You see, I'm NOT an intellectual a I have not read Neitche or Lau Tse
and I can't discust there.no typo .
SCIENCE SCIENCE SCIENCE SCIENCE SCIENCE SCIENCE SCIENCE
Is the new God fellas, science that gave us gasoline,atomic energy
life extension global warming,and a world where as we dwindlke on confusors while children are being trained to harden their hearts to killing children DAILY in a "Raghead"country in the name of god and country.
I can tell you that there is IMMENSE benefit in Ancient traditions,Art and
Music and celebrations of our inherent spiritual RIGHT all come from the same root. Railings against the Church atrocity accidentally attempt to throw the baby out with the bath water.

The beautiful quality of LOVE not just oo ee you me love but a grander love that pervades all unconditionally,omnipotently in the infinite mystery is a sweet
and amazing quality to have in your life

.You have to experience it to get it . And once you do you will be ROCKING in a new dimension where it barely makes a difference whether you are well or not, or even dead.
And YES this can help you Manifest or die knowing you tried with a smile.

I have been"poor" all my life(financialy disadvantaged) I have numerous
problems that I won't go into..and this MANIFESTATION has saved my life almost accidentally numerous times. And look at this ,it brought me here to
talk with you folks! Thanks, more later gotta go WORK for a livin'

Nico

**Sonomamark** · 03-15-2007 06:50 PM

Barry, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. There is no compelling evidence for the existence of a soul. The electrochemical reactions are NOT still possible after death, because oxygen deprivation to the brain kills the neurons that compose the neural net which holds the information pattern that is the entire sum total of our personalities. At that moment, the "soul" extinguishes, radiates away from the body as information-free heat, and everything that person has ever been is forever gone.

The only "mystery" left is in details. The general framework is known. What is left, if you really need it, is wishful thinking.

Life is just metabolism: energy consumption, energy use. It isn't a mysterious ephemeral force. It's just the operation of an organism until that organism stops functioning. No "other dimensions". No cosmic mysteries. No hokey get-out-of-Death-free mechanisms. We live--lucky to be accidental die-rolls of DNA created through a million accidents of history that brought our parents together--and then we die. That's all.

Why (oh, why!) must humans have such grandiose ideas about themselves? Why must they think that they live forever, that their existence has importance, that we somehow matter in any sense other than to one another in the narrow time in which we live? It's not hard, if you're willing not to get freaked out by the fact that you're going to die and disappear, to see the world and know what is and isn't.

Heaven, hell, reincarnation, astral projection, magic, gods, "esoteric mysteries"...these are the artifacts of times when we were ignorant. They were the best answers the people at those times could come up with. But they're not the best answers any more. They're rank superstitious nonsense. Choosing to cling to them in the face of what we now know to be true about ourselves and the Universe is, in essence, to spit on the only thing humans evolved to be any good at: intelligence.

Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

There's still the mystery... What about our soul? What is really going on here? What about this thing called life? All the electrochemical reactions are still possible after the moment of death as before it. Whatever "life" really is, it has many dimensions that we have not begun to understand scientifically, and we may never fully understand, including the mysterious

spark behind it all that I'll call divinity.

Manifested!

**"Mad" Miles** · 03-15-2007 07:13 PM

And never the twain shall meet.

"M"M

**Clancy** · 03-15-2007 07:51 PM

Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark:

Why (oh, why!) must humans have such grandiose ideas about themselves?

Because, we live in a mysterious, grand, colossal universe that mysteriously burst into being a finite time ago and assembled itself into myriad stars in myriad galaxies, then went on to evolve this mysterious thing called life out of the ashes of supernova...

Like Carl Sagan said, we are literally made of star stuff.

How life came to be and what it, and the universe, is evolving into is an extrodinary mystery, whether there's an afterlife or not.

That we're here at all seems to me a beautiful miracle.

**Sonomamark** · 03-15-2007 08:39 PM

Clancy, I completely agree with all of this, and that's why I don't think we need to believe the claptrap fairy tales offered by religion to be filled with wonder and joy. All we have to do is look up, look down, look around.

What are the odds that things should have been as they are? How beautiful it is! How rich and diverse and strange and exciting, a Universe filled with black holes and nebulae and dark energy and seahorses and slime molds and beehives and oaks shaking their leaves in the spring. Comets, auroras, bioluminescent jellyfish, waterfalls, painted deserts. Chocolate and wine. Sex and sunsets and sarsaparilla. Art. Armadillos. Asparagus. Tarantulas. Snow. Coral. Flamingos.

We don't need to play let's-pretend-we're-immortal to know the wonder of All This. We don't need to put our heads in the sand and spin lies in the face of the oncoming train of Death. We're here, in this extraordinary place, and maybe tomorrow we'll die. Look up to the Moon, down to the blade of grass. Catch a rainbow in a handful of beveled-glass light. Breathe the night filled with spring flowers. Dance. Cry a little. Run your life-roughened hands all over your body.

You're alive. No lies, now.

Live!

Posted in reply to the post by Clancy:

Because, we live in a mysterious, grand, colossal universe that mysteriously burst into being a finite time ago and assembled itself into myriad stars in myriad galaxies, then went on to evolve this mysterious thing called life out of the ashes of supernova...

Like Carl Sagan said, we are literally made of star stuff.

How life came to be and what it, and the universe, is evolving into is an extrodinary mystery, whether there's an afterlife or not.

That we're here at all seems to me a beautiful miracle.

**Clancy** · 03-15-2007 09:31 PM

Well said, but it's obvious that many people DO need to believe in all manner of things. It gives comfort. Awareness of our own mortality is an awful burden. We're basically talking apes, just beginning to grasp the nature of the universe and our place in it. It's beautiful, but, as you've said elsewhere, it's also horrible, and we are so very vulnerable.

We've had several major paradigm shifts in our understanding of the nature of reality lately, first Newtonian physics, which was heretical and very threatening to your average talking ape, then relativity, which is so bizarre most people shrink from trying to understand, and before even a tiny percent of humanity can begin to grasp it's significance along comes quantum physics to turn the apple cart over yet again.

It's very possible there are more, maybe many more paradigm shifts in our understanding of the universe ahead of us. There may be realms of existance or being that we can't even begin to comprehend. The true nature of reality may be far different than our present understanding. That's sometimes scary and sometimes delightful to this talking ape.

Cheers

Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark:

Clancy, I completely agree with all of this, and that's why I don't think we need to believe the claptrap fairy tales offered by religion to be filled with wonder and joy. All we have to do is look up, look down, look around.

What are the odds that things should have been as they are? How beautiful it is! How rich and diverse and strange and exciting, a Universe filled with black holes and nebulae and dark energy and seahorses and slime molds and beehives and oaks shaking their leaves in the spring. Comets, auroras, bioluminescent jellyfish, waterfalls, painted deserts. Chocolate and wine. Sex and sunsets and sarsaparilla. Art. Armadillos. Asparagus. Tarantulas. Snow. Coral. Flamingos.

We don't need to play let's-pretend-we're-immortal to know the wonder of All This. We don't need to put our heads in the sand and spin lies in the face of the oncoming train of Death. We're here, in this extraordinary place, and maybe tomorrow we'll die. Look up to the Moon, down to the blade of grass. Catch a rainbow in a handful of beveled-glass light. Breathe the night filled with spring flowers. Dance. Cry a little. Run your life-roughened hands all over your body.

You're alive. No lies, now.

Live!

Juggledude · 03-15-2007 09:35 PM

Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark:

Clancy, I completely agree with all of this, and that's why I don't think we need to believe the claptrap fairy tales offered by religion to be filled with wonder and joy. All we have to do is look up, look down, look around.

What are the odds that things should have been as they are? How beautiful it is! How rich and diverse and strange and exciting, a Universe filled with black holes and nebulae and dark energy and seahorses and slime molds and beehives and oaks shaking their leaves in the spring. Comets, auroras, bioluminescent jellyfish, waterfalls, painted deserts. Chocolate and wine. Sex and sunsets and sarsaparilla. Art. Armadillos. Asparagus. Tarantulas. Snow. Coral. Flamingos.

We don't need to play let's-pretend-we're-immortal to know the wonder of All This. We don't need to put our heads in the sand and spin lies in the face of the oncoming train of Death. We're here, in this extraordinary place, and maybe tomorrow we'll die. Look up to the Moon, down to the blade of grass. Catch a rainbow in a handful of beveled-glass light. Breathe the night filled with spring flowers. Dance. Cry a little. Run your life-roughened hands all over your body.

You're alive. No lies, now.

Live!

Mark,

Your posts are so alive, so passionate, I respect and enjoy the energy you are putting forth, and it seems to represent both edges of a sword, cutting down the "claptrap" as you call it, while also cutting through anything in the way of truly appreciating the verve and wondrous vitality we call life.

Your path to this space of high energy truth really seems to be working for you, kudos! That others take a different path seems to inspire some passion in you as well. The proselytizing on behalf of your truth could be painful to some. Can you imagine setting up a resonant neurochemical state internally which would allow you to experience an epiphany, as Nico speaks of, as well as so many others? Having only gradual and suggestive evidence and personal experience of a depth to reality beyond what is currently explained by science and reason alone, I can only wonder at the certainty and faith expressed by those of deep conviction. Yet, wonder I do. Wonder if there is something to this, something which science as we know it today does not have a grasp upon. For you to stand so sure in your conviction, and I quote:

Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark:

Life is just metabolism: energy consumption, energy use. It isn't a mysterious ephemeral force. It's just the operation of an organism until that organism stops functioning. No "other dimensions". No cosmic mysteries. No hokey get-out-of-Death-free mechanisms. We live--lucky to be accidental die-rolls of DNA created through a million accidents of history that brought our parents together--and then we die. That's all.

sounds a bit closed minded, a bit cocksure, and a bit naive, if you'll pardon the perspective. Remember the certainty which which the church expressed the absolute truth that the Earth was at the center of the universe, when Galileo first suggested an alternate model? Remember the certainty with which there were those who told Columbus he would sail off the edge of the flat earth?

Sure, maybe it is all electrochemical reactions and such, but the same science and rationality has to admit that maybe it's simply an as yet undiscovered aspect of the universe or universes that we are currently blind to, just as pre-renaissance man was unaware of the concepts of aerodynamic lift, and would certainly have stood as firm in stating the absolute truth that no man made machine could ever fly.

An open mind is terrible thing to waste, especially one as sharp as yours obviously is.

Royce

**PeteS** · 03-16-2007 09:30 AM

Posted in reply to the post by Jill:

What I'd like to know is how to apply all that stuff to my life. For the past few months I've been using affirmations as well as the law of attraction and I'm still single, I have no job and I have several bills to pay.

So what am I missing??!?!?

Hi Jill,
Question is; "What am I learning?" The Secret is a scientific method of theory and experiment, also known as trial and error or cause and effect. Using affirmations and setting intentions are good, but there are other practices that help set the ground to receive our heart's desire and to participate fully in the law of circulation.
These practices include meditating, that is taking time each day to be still and go within and observe; just watch your thoughts, your feelings, your ideas, your body; just sit and watch your self without judgment or agenda; let things arise and fall away, clearing your consciousness and awareness so you can be in the present moment.
Another is related to this, but in the physical world, to make room for new, or more even, there needs to be space for it; as we clear the clutter of our mind by meditating, we clear the clutter of our physical world, letting go of that which no longer serves us, establishing order and tidiness in our home, garden and financial affairs.
This same principle applied to our emotional affairs includes forgiveness and gratitude. To clear your emotional body and really be ready for a new relationship, I invite you to sit and journal about your past relationships, finding what worked, that which you are really grateful for and what didn't work and don't want to repeat. I invite you to consider any anger and resentment you find and let it go by saying to your self, "I forgive, I forgive ..." until you feel it, really feel it. Yes, it is possible to clear the situation emotionally this way and help clear the way to accept a new love into your life.
Another aspect of the law of circulation is availability, you have to be available for the good you seek; this means being out in the world with friends and in other social situations and activities, just being yourself, with your dreams and desires in the background. As you let go of focusing on your desires and wants and plunge into life as it appears before you, that is when what appears to be magic happens, and suddenly you find what you set in motion as a desire is in your life is suddenly part of your life. Do what you love to do and your love will find you.
Your dreams and desires manifest in your life as a result of the choices you have made up to that point, and the choices are helped by the ground you have set through meditating, clearing away clutter of all kinds, being grateful for who you are and your experience of life, forgiving and releasing that which clutters your emotional life and being active in the world, sharing the gift you are with those around you by doing what you love to do. This is The Secret applied to your life.

Peter
Only Love Prevails
https://SharePrayer.com

On Mar 12, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Jill @ WaccoBB wrote:

Category: WaccoTalk
Thread: What The Secret means to me...

What I'd like to know is how to apply all that stuff to my life. For the past few months I've been using affirmations as well as the law of attraction and I'm still single, I have no job and I have several bills to pay.

So what am I missing??!?!?

Quote:
Zeno Swijtink wrote:
I watched this movie recently and thought it was infantile

Not so much since a silly metaphysical superstructure is given to the simple truth that a happy and open-minded person is more attractive and relaxed, and less likely to trip over a banana peel and make a fool of himself. (Yes, quantum theory is evoked again to make the audience swoon.)

It was infantile since in the video The Secret was used solely to satisfy infantile desires: the breathtaking necklace, the fast car, the stunning partner. All material and private desires.

Maybe those who hold The Secret can ask for World Peace next time, or some other urgent collective good?

Thanks!

You can reply privately by just clicking "Reply" to this email.
Waccobb.net - Connecting Conscious Community in the North Bay!

**Clancy** · 03-16-2007 09:44 AM

Posted in reply to the post by PeteS:

The Secret is a scientific method of theory and experiment, also known as trial and error or cause and effect.

No, it is NOT a scientific method. You shoot yourself in the foot making such a claim.

If you want to help people understand the value of 'the secret' you need to get clear on what it isn't first. Any explanation here of what the scientific method is would bore many wacco readers to tears, so I won't bother, but I suggest you look it up.

Can you use science to evaluate the effectiveness of meditation, prayer and affirmations? Yes.

For instance, studies have shown people who meditate regularly are generally healthier than those who don't, and meditation can lower blood pressure etc.

But meditation in and of itself isn't scientific at all. See the difference?

**PeteS** · 03-16-2007 11:44 AM

To me science is asking questions and looking for the answers. I live a scientific life, because I am always asking questions and looking for answers. Science is inquiry leading to knowledge.

The law of attraction is likened to the law of gravity, teachers of The Secret say LOA just is, use it or go on in ignorance, it still works in your life. We use the law of gravity whether or not we inquire into what it is; science inquires into what it is. You know, it is like we can live our whole lives knowing the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, that is a fact; when we ask why does that sun rise in the east and set in the west, and start looking for answers to the question, that is science.

The approach to The Secret and LOA I am proposing here is the scientific approach of trying something and paying attention to the results; this is scientific. I don't have time to go on and on here; but refer to Merriam-Webster for an explanation of Science:
https://209.161.33.50/dictionary/science

Oh, to reply to the bit about meditating not being science, it depends on whether one just does it in ignorance or does it in pursuit of knowledge. When I began meditating 39 years ago, it was out of curiosity and part of my pursuit of knowledge as a philosopher; I find it is "science" in that it reveals knowledge.

Nothing is scientific in and of itself until we ask a question and look for the answer, then we are participating in the scientific method.

Have a wonderful day,

Peter

Posted in reply to the post by Clancy:

No, it is NOT a scientific method. You shoot yourself in the foot making such a claim.

If you want to help people understand the value of 'the secret' you need to get clear on what it isn't first. Any explanation here of what the scientific method is would bore many wacco readers to tears, so I won't bother, but I suggest you look it up.

Can you use science to evaluate the effectiveness of meditation, prayer and affirmations? Yes.

For instance, studies have shown people who meditate regularly are generally healthier than those who don't, and meditation can lower blood pressure etc.

But meditation in and of itself isn't scientific at all. See the difference?

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