To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

[occihoff]

It's still an awfully large number, Judith! And many who survive are crippled with more or less problematic after-effects.

richard,
the "awfully large number" is still an awfully small percentage of people who have it or have had it, many of whom didn't even know they did, that's how mild it can be.

doesn't it just make sense that older, sicker people (by and large) die when there's an added stressor?

i, like many round here, have made a life habit of optimizing my health, and avoiding doctors
except for emergencies, diagnostic tests or unique therapeutics. i get their input, then decide with other input.
allopathic medicine is relatively new, profit-driven and crude compared to the various other systems of healing which work with nature and subtle energies: Ayureveda, TCM, herbalists, etc.

i've also made friends with death, knowing that this is one realm of many and that my being has cycled in and will cycle out. that frees me to have less-to-no fear of dying.

a virus - no matter how pumped by the master fear porn mongers controlling the daily reports - simply does not hold the terror for me that it does for most people. ultimately we will all go, and i'm good with that.

being here in the meantime, it does behoove us to be healthy.

looking around at the typical american, though, for decades we've been amongst the unhealthiest on the planet, despite our wealth and 'high living standard'.

how many people got the flu (or whatever was going around) every year?
how many people got the flu shot and
how many got sick even with the fu shot?

our medical establishment is notorious costly and it is counter to its self-interest to keep people healthy. it is really effective at increasing its profits; look at any statistics you like. big pharma is (if not THE, then among) the top lobbyist in DC. but making us healthy, not so much.

what wonder is there that we have the current situation?

question is, on a personal level, what's your own style, now and for the last 40 years?
who's your doctor or person or system you turn to to return to optimum health?
who bears the wisdom and the responsibility?

then, collectively, what laws do you endorse which mandate 'public health"?
what mandates do you allow for what is required to be done to your body? another person's body?
have you thought about freedom and what that means, starting with your body? and for everyone?

of course it will be both the carrot (entrance to stores, events, etc.) and the stick (required vaccine papers for work, school, travel, etc.) as well as social shaming by those who will defend to their last breath their need to have everyone vaccinated for the overall good, despite irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

this would be a good time - never too soon for mass awakening.
the very best health and happiness to all, jude

[occihoff]

"A fair chance of surviving the virus"? I'm not inclined to gamble with my health, Judith. It's really all I have!

How can you downplay the severity of this epidemic? We've never seen anything like this in your and my many decades of life! The whole world is on it's knees! Hospitals are overwhelmed! Economies are collapsing! And there's no relief in sight!

As for vaccines, I've been inoculated with many ever since childhood. I never got the diseases--thank god!-- and I've never developed any side effects from the vaccines. I only know of one person who has a horror story connected with vaccination. Are you one of those people who believe you have been harmed by vaccination?

I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.

How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?

And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?

I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.

I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend. But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.

richard,
uh, with a good immune system, you not only stand a "fair chance of surviving the virus"
but you'll barely notice that you've had it, like the majority of those with positive tests.

meanwhile:
have you watched Vaxxed 1 and 2?
have you given del bigtree a few hours of listen?
how about some of the many, many talks Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has on video?
or read anything which actually examines issues with vaccines, since you don't favor videos?

Do you simply prefer to hold your views that "vaccines are safe and effective" - THE marketing line given by BIG PHARMA, CDC, WHO, ETC. and parroted by each and every talking head on pretty much EACH AND EVERY TV STATION (I've misplaced that edited montage but it's there, oh yes it is).

here's a fun thing for you to do, richard: google 'vaccine harms' or vaccine deaths' or 'vaccine problems'.
You WON'T SEE much there - NOT because it doesn't exist but because IT HAS BEEN CENSORED. DELETED. REMOVED.

Everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship. WHY?
Why are Americans NOT ALLOWED to know and dialogue about any subject? For 'our own good'?
Could there possibly be an agenda for the censorship?

Everyone posting a video on YouTube saying anything critical about 5G KNOWS they will get deleted within the hour. WTF??? Could there be BIG MONEY INVOLVED? POSSIBLY???
...but back to vaccines...

it is somewhat surprising that you are still not fully clear that the 'development' of the vaccine is indeed going at WARP SPEED (Operation Warp Speed Selects Billionaire Scientist’s COVID-19 Vaccine for Monkey Tests June 02, 2020 | Science Magazine)

and that it will likely be given by military medics - WHICH HAVE BEGUN TO BE DEPLOYED TO TEXAS AND CALIFORNIA YESTERDAY, FRIDAY, JULY 17, 2020


hopefully, there'll also soon be a vaccine for 'mind-boggling cognitive dissonance' of which you can then avail yourself; not that i don't experience that as well, but i treat i just treat it naturally, given the *novel covid reality*.

relax, get some sun - and stay healthy, jude

[caromia333]

It does seem futile to argue with people not interested in doing the work of researching vaccines deaths and injuries.

It is OK to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus AND question the drug companies business and long and corrupt track record. Don't forget vaccines are a 52 billion dollar a year business - the only for profit business that has NO liability and full indemnity since the vaccine ACT of 1986.

As the Shakespeare would stay, "Something is rotten in Denmark."

Here's my friends vaccine database - he is a long time silicon valley IT specialist and is brilliant. He created this for free and maintains it daily. He is constantly restoring data that goes missing and is in close relationship with the government team who supplies the data on their end - he calls them regularly to get that information restored. He built algorithms that made sense out of the mass of useless data and runs a neutral website (neither for or against vaccines with such clear and easy to find information). It's a work of art: https://medalerts.org/

Explore and learn and then make up your mind.

"A fair chance of surviving the virus"? I'm not inclined to gamble with my health, Judith. It's really all I have!

How can you downplay the severity of this epidemic? We've never seen anything like this in your and my many decades of life! The whole world is on it's knees! Hospitals are overwhelmed! Economies are collapsing! And there's no relief in sight!

As for vaccines, I've been inoculated with many ever since childhood. I never got the diseases--thank god!-- and I've never developed any side effects from the vaccines. I only know of one person who has a horror story connected with vaccination. Are you one of those people who believe you have been harmed by vaccination?

I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.

How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?

And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?

I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.

I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend. But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.

[podfish]

It does seem futile to argue with people not interested in doing the work of researching vaccines deaths and injuries.

It is OK to acknowledge the seriousness of this virus AND question the drug companies business and long and corrupt track record.
...

As the Shakespeare would stay, "Something is rotten in Denmark."

Explore and learn and then make up your mind.

this is true, it's futile. And a lot of it is because people aren't arguing about facts, but about how to weigh them and what the simple, behavioral conclusion is.
Of course amateurs can't argue with experts on an even basis about the details. It's an easy way for an expert to cut short a discussion, too - trot out some arcane knowledge that leaves the opponent disarmed. I might have used that technique once or twice. But one thing to note: even experts often end up agreeing to disagree.

When the argument leads toward people making a decision about their behavior, though, many of the issues raised are not overly helpful. Can we all agree that for-profit medicine is a really bad idea? and that no-one can trust big pharma, or government, for that matter, to have nothing but their best interests at heart. Thanks.

Now, the real question. Do we disdain vaccines because of the arguments against them? Will digging deep into "the research" lead us to the conclusion we should just eat more strawberries instead?

Personally, I don't accept the apparent conclusion that several people on the anti-vax side of discussions here seem to have reached. I don't think it's likely that vaccines are a fake-news hoax that are useless at best and dangerous at worst.
However, people who are doing research, exposing the problems, are doing a valuable service too; it's a major reason why safeguards do exists. So props to them on that, but if that leads them to refusing all vaccines, I suspect it's going to hurt not only them but it'll negatively impact the potential beneficiaries of vaccines too.
Now, that being said, I'm not going to necessarily jump at the first vaccines either, and if someday a medical mistake or a poorly-vetted vaccine kills me, I won't be shocked -- I'd be pissed that they weren't better regulated.

[podfish]

richard,
uh, with a good immune system, you not only stand a "fair chance of surviving the virus"
but you'll barely notice that you've had it, like the majority of those with positive tests.

kind of a "one true Scotsman" there. If you don't survive, Richard, it'll be on you if you don't!

Jude, this is where the big numbers stand on their own. There are thousands to hundreds of thousands of people who have died or are going to suffer life-long negative impact on their health. They don't really give a damn if it's a small percentage, or if they should have just had a better immune system, the morons. Why didn't they figure that out?

Go ahead and argue that it's too costly on society to save these people, because they're a small percentage of the population. It's an honest point of view. A few Trumpy politicians were bold enough to say it, but none stuck to it under pressure.

[Jude Iam]

now that you mention it, peter, an ungodly percentage of our sky-high medical costs are spent on
the very-end-of-life care.
this, of course, in a culture which fears death and desperately strives to extend life every last moment, regardless of tubes, beeping machines, drastic procedures, by any means available.

yet, as Budha recognized, old age, sickness and death are our inevitable demise - or 2 outta 3, but death is always there.

there is a lot to be said for self responsibility for our health; if someone smokes and drinks all their life, do 'we' pay for lung and liver replacement - IF that's even possible... right?
epigenetics is the study of how genes are affected by how we live. that's a real thing.
same genes, different health outcome. and yes, certainly, there is the context - polluted environments causing cancers, COPD, etc., and also illness that just 'comes' ...so not clear cut but ABSOLUTELY much of our health is in our daily choices throughout our lives, which account for that good immune system, in the larger context of our (relatively) vital body, at whatever age.

[Jude Iam]

...if someday a medical mistake or a poorly-vetted vaccine kills me, I won't be shocked -- I'd be pissed that they weren't better regulated.

uh, peter, there are better options than being 'pissed off after you're dead' or seriously harmed by a vaccine.

you could watch, listen to or read the material on the subject of vaccines.

NB: WE ARE NOW LIVING IN INCREASINGLY CENSORED TIMES, WHERE INFORMATION COUNTER TO THE PREVAILING NARRATIVE (ESPECIALLY VACCINES) IS CONSTANTLY DELETED. WHY IS THAT? EXPLORE. EXAMINE. LEARN BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY.

after becoming more knowledgeable, you'd make more informed decisions about when and if you wanted to have a vaccination - or any medical procedure.

your body, your choice.
the more you know, the better your choices.

[Jude Iam]

richard: the "fair chance of surviving" was in response to richard ely's post.
regardless, your mind is made up, clearly there's no need to spend time to learn, etc.
you'd have to think.
responding is obviously a waste on all fronts.

"A fair chance of surviving the virus"? I'm not inclined to gamble with my health, Judith. It's really all I have!

How can you downplay the severity of this epidemic? We've never seen anything like this in your and my many decades of life! The whole world is on it's knees! Hospitals are overwhelmed! Economies are collapsing! And there's no relief in sight!

As for vaccines, I've been inoculated with many ever since childhood. I never got the diseases--thank god!-- and I've never developed any side effects from the vaccines. I only know of one person who has a horror story connected with vaccination. Are you one of those people who believe you have been harmed by vaccination?

I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.

How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?

And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?

I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.

I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend. But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.

[santoshimatajaya]

Zach Bush MD, who i so gratefully and fortunately connected with through your post Jude, weeks ago, says we are about 2% genetic, the rest is the micro-biome, made of viruses (yes, viruses, as viruses he says, are not living organisms. they areInformation which tag onto RNA, that support us, give us downloads for our evolution, survival, etc.) so we are made 98% of micro-biome: viruses, parasites, bacteria, fungi~ we have only 2/3 the genetics of a flea, Zach says. He said, when he misplaces his car keys or is late for an airplane flight, he thinks to himself, 'well i only have 2/3 the genetics as a flea.' His emphasis is on the health of the micro-biome, in the gut / intestines for building immunity. He does not reccommend probiotics because he says we have 30-40,000 positive bacteria or probiotics in our micro-biome, so to feed oneself 2-4 types of probiotic continually subverts the existence and building of diversity of probiotics in the gut. He speaks beyond where most nutritionists and doctors are coming from.


epigenetics is the study of how genes are affected by how we live. that's a real thing.
same genes, different health outcome. and yes, certainly, there is the context - polluted environments causing cancers, COPD, etc., and also illness that just 'comes' ...so not clear cut but ABSOLUTELY much of our health is in our daily choices throughout our lives, which account for that good immune system, in the larger context of our (relatively) vital body, at whatever age.[/QUOTE]

[OldGranddad]

I’ve been following this thread, “To mask or not to mask”, for some time now and am amazed at what I’ve been reading – or better, appalled. How can supposedly intelligent people – after all, they are West County residents – have such long-winded, idiotic arguments over a subject that could easily be proven or disproven with, probably, far less energy than the arguments themselves? My theory is, that because of the pandemic, they have no sports events to watch or bars to drink in or restaurants to eat in so they have substituted the arguments. And this is just one of many that are currently popular. The sad thing is that such activities divide us and use up our energy so that we have none left to apply to the problems we all face, that are far more important.

I’m referring to the sad, sad state of our country. In my humble opinion (well!!!!!!!!!!), even if we get rid of trump, the Democrats will still be plagued by the root causes of our downfall. Again in my opinion, they are money in politics and education. The first needs few words. Our politicians are bought and paid for before they take office and have no obligations to the voters. The second is the most important because if we educated our children properly, they would be able to fix the country when their turn comes to run it. Yes, I have solutions, but now is not the time to expound upon them.

Can you imagine, that if instead of arguing and allowing ourselves to be divided, what things would be like if we all pulled together and worked for the good of our country? I say, Waccoites, it’s time for a revolution. If we don’t have a peaceful one now, we’ll certainly have a bloody one in the future at the rate we’re going. Wake up and take action!

Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?

Old Granddad

[caromia333]

this is the BEST response to this thread YET!

And I agree 100% on the systemic rot that the two party system has created. It's a divide and conquer game to its core - and we all fell for it for lack of knowledge of history. Our government is based on corporate ownership of our representatives. All of them are beholden to monied interests. Nothing will ever go back to normal.

I’ve been following this thread, “To mask or not to mask”, for some time now and am amazed at what I’ve been reading – or better, appalled. How can supposedly intelligent people – after all, they are West County residents – have such long-winded, idiotic arguments over a subject that could easily be proven or disproven with, probably, far less energy than the arguments themselves? My theory is, that because of the pandemic, they have no sports events to watch or bars to drink in or restaurants to eat in so they have substituted the arguments. And this is just one of many that are currently popular. The sad thing is that such activities divide us and use up our energy so that we have none left to apply to the problems we all face, that are far more important.

I’m referring to the sad, sad state of our country. In my humble opinion (well!!!!!!!!!!), even if we get rid of trump, the Democrats will still be plagued by the root causes of our downfall. Again in my opinion, they are money in politics and education. The first needs few words. Our politicians are bought and paid for before they take office and have no obligations to the voters. The second is the most important because if we educated our children properly, they would be able to fix the country when their turn comes to run it. Yes, I have solutions, but now is not the time to expound upon them.

Can you imagine, that if instead of arguing and allowing ourselves to be divided, what things would be like if we all pulled together and worked for the good of our country? I say, Waccoites, it’s time for a revolution. If we don’t have a peaceful one now, we’ll certainly have a bloody one in the future at the rate we’re going. Wake up and take action!

Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?

Old Granddad

[podfish]

Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?

Old Granddad

the first part, probably not - how would you envision that going?
the second, I hope you're right, that we'll work together for the benefit of all. But if, as I suspect, when you say "by working together" you mean stop arguing and just wear their damn masks, it's not going to happen because of anyone's compelling argument here. What do you imagine would change the minds of people who are doing serious research to justify why the current restrictions are misguided? They're smart enough to counter any argument; there are enough ways to interpret data to support any doubts they have about the mainstream conclusions.

[occihoff]

I think that there are many people who just love to argue and fight and assert their Rightness! I confess I can get a bit caught up in that myself, OldGranddad. Then I pull back and realize damn, I've only got a few years left on this incredible planet, and I've got a lot of firewood to cut for the cold season, and things that need fixing in my body and life!

I’ve been following this thread, “To mask or not to mask”, for some time now and am amazed at what I’ve been reading – or better, appalled. How can supposedly intelligent people – after all, they are West County residents – have such long-winded, idiotic arguments over a subject that could easily be proven or disproven with, probably, far less energy than the arguments themselves? My theory is, that because of the pandemic, they have no sports events to watch or bars to drink in or restaurants to eat in so they have substituted the arguments. And this is just one of many that are currently popular. The sad thing is that such activities divide us and use up our energy so that we have none left to apply to the problems we all face, that are far more important.

I’m referring to the sad, sad state of our country. In my humble opinion (well!!!!!!!!!!), even if we get rid of trump, the Democrats will still be plagued by the root causes of our downfall. Again in my opinion, they are money in politics and education. The first needs few words. Our politicians are bought and paid for before they take office and have no obligations to the voters. The second is the most important because if we educated our children properly, they would be able to fix the country when their turn comes to run it. Yes, I have solutions, but now is not the time to expound upon them.

Can you imagine, that if instead of arguing and allowing ourselves to be divided, what things would be like if we all pulled together and worked for the good of our country? I say, Waccoites, it’s time for a revolution. If we don’t have a peaceful one now, we’ll certainly have a bloody one in the future at the rate we’re going. Wake up and take action!

Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?

Old Granddad

[occihoff]

Instead of responding to the points I made in my post, you put me down as someone whose "mind is made up" and unwilling to learn and think. This is an unfriendly and unhelpful way to relate, Judith.

richard: the "fair chance of surviving" was in response to richard ely's post.
regardless, your mind is made up, clearly there's no need to spend time to learn, etc.
you'd have to think.
responding is obviously a waste on all fronts.

[OldGranddad]

Please don't think the problem is the two party system. No matter how many parties we have, things will always be bad if we have the corruption. We can make the two party system work, or any number for that matter, if we change our course and head in a better direction.

Old Granddad

this is the BEST response to this thread YET!

And I agree 100% on the systemic rot that the two party system has created. It's a divide and conquer game to its core - and we all fell for it for lack of knowledge of history. Our government is based on corporate ownership of our representatives. All of them are beholden to monied interests. Nothing will ever go back to normal.

[Wunderkind]

In other countries, wearing a mask is not even a debate. It is common sense. Aside from that, cleaning our own space and home is necessary; we use garden hose https://totalguide.org/best-garden-hose/ at home.

[OldGranddad]

Suppose we just ignored the mask problem and made face to face meetings for masks only or meetings with proper distancing for those with no masks and virtual meetings for everyone to discuss problems that may have a solution? I agree with you, it's an emotional issue and too difficult to resolve in our lifetimes. But, if the non-maskers are wrong, the issue will resolve itself.

Old Granddad

the first part, probably not - how would you envision that going?
the second, I hope you're right, that we'll work together for the benefit of all. But if, as I suspect, when you say "by working together" you mean stop arguing and just wear their damn masks, it's not going to happen because of anyone's compelling argument here. What do you imagine would change the minds of people who are doing serious research to justify why the current restrictions are misguided? They're smart enough to counter any argument; there are enough ways to interpret data to support any doubts they have about the mainstream conclusions.

[OldGranddad]

What does that phrase, "common sense" mean. I've never observed anything that sounds like that it my long lifetime!

Old Grandad

In other countries, wearing a mask is not even a debate. It is common sense.

[wisewomn]

Not only that, Occi, her remarks are also true of herself. :-)

Instead of responding to the points I made in my post, you put me down as someone whose "mind is made up" and unwilling to learn and think. This is an unfriendly and unhelpful way to relate, Judith.

[Jude Iam]

ok, richard, here ya go, my responses interspersed in bold font:

"I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.

I challenge your receptivity and exposure to "anti-vaccers"... the term is tinged derogatorily, like 'conspiracy theorists'...
please share how many documentaries you've watched, articles and books you've read, interviews, etc. to come to your assessment of their having the "ring of paranoia".
If/since you haven't, you've no basis for your opinion - except what you've gotten via big pharma controlled media.

How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?

Endless deleted videos, accounts, entire websites with vast resources, gone. On vaccines and other topics.
Not knowing indicates you haven't been very aware and active online. Do others not know this? It's the new book-burning.
i'm not taking the time tonight to collate a list. LOTS THERE, or rather GONE.
a few on the topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtrdPulxDtY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsd57EYyH_0
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...nd-censorship/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIBKsqQ-irc

And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?

I spend considerable time researching, and am not willing to do your research for you, to prove to you something which is abundantly clear to myself and the (few) others who are assiduous enough to explore and learn - in addition to just listening to the "radio while cooking and eating".

Neither NPR nor KPFA have been broadcasting the information which comes through the internet, via many sources I proffered weeks ago, on a list and then individually, for about 5 MONTHS now:
Del BigTree, London Real, Bet-David, Dr. Thomas Cowan, Ty and Charlene, Dr. Zack Bush, Dr. Christiane Northrup, Michel Chosudovsky, RFK Jr., etc., etc., etc.

I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.

I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend.
But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.

THIS, ABOVE, IS WHAT TRIGGERED MY (SOMEWHAT ANNOYED) FIRST REPLY: that you "refuse to take the many hours and explore the many sources of information" which I do
- yet you're "sure" and flummoxed by the existence of "other sources...that disagree" - implying that there's simply no way forward to know what's what... so that's that.

That is exactly where the intelligence part comes in, admittedly after putting in the time you've already said you refuse to...
DISCERNMENT. LOGIC. PATTERN RECOGNITION. AMASSING INFORMATION. HEARING THE RING OF TRUTH. SEEING THE VIDEOS OF DOCTORS AND PATIENTS, CHILDREN AND PARENTS, EX-CDC AND PHARMA AND FDC AND WHO, FROM DIFFERENT CONTINENTS AND LABS. Utterly fascinating, profoundly affecting, shocking and activating.

You've written that you found my initial reply "unfriendly and unhelpful". Perhaps this is more helpful.

And now that I've taken the time to reply to some of your questions will YOU now be taking the time to actually put your attention on some of the resources offered here? or will chopping wood, and other necessities continue to preclude your looking, listening, giving a true hearing to what this is about, hmmmm? Frankly, I'd bet on the latter, which is what summoned my considerably briefer reply.

But hope springs eternal. Ball's in your court. Love, Jude

Instead of responding to the points I made in my post, you put me down as someone whose "mind is made up" and unwilling to learn and think. This is an unfriendly and unhelpful way to relate, Judith.

[Jude Iam]

actually, barbara, sometimes there is a difference -
not ALL one observes about another is always projection.

(; >))

Not only that, Occi, her remarks are also true of herself. :-)

[santoshimatajaya]

Very Interesting Assessment (if true) on the (questionable) Value of Masks written by Harvard medical professional/s

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...lHcbrYjO-zPZdg

[podfish]

Very Interesting Assessment (if true) on the (questionable) Value of Masks written by Harvard medical professional/s

well, that's not quite what that's about. It's got a little editorialization on whether we should all wear masks or not - it's primarily about what's needed in a medical environment. They mention 'normal' outside use in passing, not referring to any actual studies. They're a little too casual as they dismiss their value.

But again, I think people are basing their ideas on different sets of assumptions. I'm perfectly willing to accept as a plausible assertion. They state the obvious - typically you need a 'significant exposure' to catch Covid19, then say "the chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal." Sure, true enough.
If we all maintained social distancing and stayed outdoors or in well-ventilated public space, there would probably be hardly any transmission. But that's not the world we're in. Note they don't define 'passing interaction'. There's also the issue that people who aren't wearing masks are forcing others in their surroundings to accept their judgement,that there really is no danger and it's all overblown. Also, we often force people to take precautions that aren't justified. You really think that just because I'm blowing 0.08 after a couple of beers that I'm still not a safer driver than you at your best? Well, the nanny state won't let us find out, will they? At this early stage of the pandemic, that's the context to look at the mask requirements in.

[viajera]

Hello dear believers and non believers,
We can no longer claim ignorance of the facts. We now know a lot about this virus that we didn’t know at the beginning of the pandemic. The main things are asymptomatic rates of infection, primarily airborne transmission, and the fact that people are most infectious prior to the onset of symptoms. It is time that we adjust our behavior to reflect this new knowledge.
Now, let's talk about who is getting sick with Covid. In our greatly affluent and Anglo community here in Sonoma County (West County for sure), the majority of the people getting sick are Latinos...documented, undocumented, first, second, third generation, Spanish speaking and non Spanish speaking, English speaking and non English speaking. This includes a large indigenous population mostly from Mexico and fewer from Guatemala. I know because I work with them as well as for an organization that tracks the statistics in Sonoma Co. These are our brothers and sisters who plant, grow and harvest our food, tend to the animals that we consume, tend to our elders, children, and our gardens. They work in our restaurants, bars, and hotels.

Keeping this in mind, I will continue to obey the law by wearing a mask, & keeping a social distance... for their sake and for mine.

It's still an awfully large number, Judith! And many who survive are crippled with more or less problematic after-effects.

[podfish]

Now, let's talk about who is getting sick with Covid. In our greatly affluent and Anglo community here in Sonoma County (West County for sure), the majority of the people getting sick are Latinos...... These are our brothers and sisters who plant, grow and harvest our food, tend to the animals that we consume, tend to our elders, children, and our gardens. They work in our restaurants, bars, and hotels.

Keeping this in mind, I will continue to obey the law by wearing a mask, & keeping a social distance... for their sake and for mine.

that's true, and it's an unstated assumption behind a lot of the arguments that are saying masks aren't effective enough to bother with.
It is indeed true, even more effective than wearing a mask is having someone else take the risks for you. Too many of us have limited our exposure, so unless masks are hugely effective, we don't really need them all that much -- for ourselves. But for those who can't help but have frequent exposure, it's different. And there, it's true, masks aren't good enough for someone to protect themselves. It behooves the rest of us to do what we can to limit their exposure -- and saying we don't think we're putting them at much risk, isn't really good enough. We don't bear the same potential cost, it's being pushed to people who don't get much say.

[rossmen]

Your off topic! Thanks:), however you have opened up a whole new Cassandra can of worms, thankyou. Personally I think we all work together all the time. Even when we actively kill each other. Our species, whether we like it or not, hold the fate of earth in our hands. Not life of course, but us and many others (species).

So the question is, putting it all together, is wearing masks good for the planet? If we kill off the old and sick, which could be you and me, is that better? Clearly most of us will survive, and this moment will be judged historically. Does our future historical judgement matter? A=B=C no.

So mask wearing doesn't matter? On a personal level yes. My partner wants me to wear a mask to keep family and her patients safe. But she's way more social than me, and suffers. And as an alternative practitioner she knows more about this than me.

What am I supposed to do? I enjoy talking to trees more than people. Masks are not something the native big ones give a shit about. So yeah I wear a mask. Because I can.

I’ve been following this thread, “To mask or not to mask”, for some time now and am amazed at what I’ve been reading – or better, appalled. How can supposedly intelligent people – after all, they are West County residents – have such long-winded, idiotic arguments over a subject that could easily be proven or disproven with, probably, far less energy than the arguments themselves? My theory is, that because of the pandemic, they have no sports events to watch or bars to drink in or restaurants to eat in so they have substituted the arguments. And this is just one of many that are currently popular. The sad thing is that such activities divide us and use up our energy so that we have none left to apply to the problems we all face, that are far more important.

I’m referring to the sad, sad state of our country. In my humble opinion (well!!!!!!!!!!), even if we get rid of trump, the Democrats will still be plagued by the root causes of our downfall. Again in my opinion, they are money in politics and education. The first needs few words. Our politicians are bought and paid for before they take office and have no obligations to the voters. The second is the most important because if we educated our children properly, they would be able to fix the country when their turn comes to run it. Yes, I have solutions, but now is not the time to expound upon them.

Can you imagine, that if instead of arguing and allowing ourselves to be divided, what things would be like if we all pulled together and worked for the good of our country? I say, Waccoites, it’s time for a revolution. If we don’t have a peaceful one now, we’ll certainly have a bloody one in the future at the rate we’re going. Wake up and take action!

Is there a way we could have a discussion that would get us heading in this direction? Could we be reasonable and agree to work together for the benefit of all, or is this notion just a fairy tale?

Old Granddad

[occihoff]

Yet, there's a whole lot of people as educated or more educated than you who believe that there is considerable value in wearing masks. Dr. Fauci is a good example. Should I believe him or you? I could waste days, months, and years of my life studying both sides of this issue, but in the end I would have to make a choice about which supposed experts seem to make the most sense.

Do you really believe that there is no benefit whatever in wearing masks? Do you yourself refuse to wear one? If it turns out there is a benefit in wearing masks, but enough people refuse to do so, then any benefit gained by the mask-wearers in regard to wiping out this epidemic will be vitiated, and it will just go on and on and on.

ok, richard, here ya go, my responses interspersed in bold font:

"I don't think that the medical establishment is beyond error. But I also don't think the anti-vaccers are beyond error. In fact, to me, they have the ring of paranoia.

I challenge your receptivity and exposure to "anti-vaccers"... the term is tinged derogatorily, like 'conspiracy theorists'...
please share how many documentaries you've watched, articles and books you've read, interviews, etc. to come to your assessment of their having the "ring of paranoia".
If/since you haven't, you've no basis for your opinion - except what you've gotten via big pharma controlled media.

How do you know that negative information about vaccine problems have been censored and deleted on the Internet? What is your evidence?

Endless deleted videos, accounts, entire websites with vast resources, gone. On vaccines and other topics.
Not knowing indicates you haven't been very aware and active online. Do others not know this? It's the new book-burning.
i'm not taking the time tonight to collate a list. LOTS THERE, or rather GONE.
a few on the topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtrdPulxDtY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsd57EYyH_0
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...nd-censorship/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIBKsqQ-irc

And if, as you say, "everyone KNOWS that we are now living with daily censorship," how do you know this? I confess I don't know it. So is it "everyone" but me? I get most of my information on the radio while I'm cooking and eating, from National Public Radio and KPFA. Are they all in the pocket of Deep Pharma and the Global Conspiracy to suppress the Truth? If they are, who isn't?

I spend considerable time researching, and am not willing to do your research for you, to prove to you something which is abundantly clear to myself and the (few) others who are assiduous enough to explore and learn - in addition to just listening to the "radio while cooking and eating".

Neither NPR nor KPFA have been broadcasting the information which comes through the internet, via many sources I proffered weeks ago, on a list and then individually, for about 5 MONTHS now:
Del BigTree, London Real, Bet-David, Dr. Thomas Cowan, Ty and Charlene, Dr. Zack Bush, Dr. Christiane Northrup, Michel Chosudovsky, RFK Jr., etc., etc., etc.

I agree that Big Pharma has a sinister side, like most huge corporations. Dealing with people's health gives them extra special power.

I refuse to take the many hours out of my life that you do to hang out on the computer and explore all the many sources of information and opinion on the Internet that you recommend.
But I'm sure that for every source of expertise that you recommend, there are other sources of expertise that will disagree and put forth a different point of view.

THIS, ABOVE, IS WHAT TRIGGERED MY (SOMEWHAT ANNOYED) FIRST REPLY: that you "refuse to take the many hours and explore the many sources of information" which I do
- yet you're "sure" and flummoxed by the existence of "other sources...that disagree" - implying that there's simply no way forward to know what's what... so that's that.

That is exactly where the intelligence part comes in, admittedly after putting in the time you've already said you refuse to...
DISCERNMENT. LOGIC. PATTERN RECOGNITION. AMASSING INFORMATION. HEARING THE RING OF TRUTH. SEEING THE VIDEOS OF DOCTORS AND PATIENTS, CHILDREN AND PARENTS, EX-CDC AND PHARMA AND FDC AND WHO, FROM DIFFERENT CONTINENTS AND LABS. Utterly fascinating, profoundly affecting, shocking and activating.

You've written that you found my initial reply "unfriendly and unhelpful". Perhaps this is more helpful.

And now that I've taken the time to reply to some of your questions will YOU now be taking the time to actually put your attention on some of the resources offered here? or will chopping wood, and other necessities continue to preclude your looking, listening, giving a true hearing to what this is about, hmmmm? Frankly, I'd bet on the latter, which is what summoned my considerably briefer reply.

But hope springs eternal. Ball's in your court. Love, Jude

[Jude Iam]

richard,
i took the time to respond in detail to you, though i believed it pointless, as i wrote in conclusion.
your response here has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with with my response.at least try.

Yet, there's a whole lot of people as educated or more educated than you who believe that there is considerable value in wearing masks. Dr. Fauci is a good example. Should I believe him or you? I could waste days, months, and years of my life studying both sides of this issue, but in the end I would have to make a choice about which supposed experts seem to make the most sense.

Do you really believe that there is no benefit whatever in wearing masks? Do you yourself refuse to wear one? If it turns out there is a benefit in wearing masks, but enough people refuse to do so, then any benefit gained by the mask-wearers in regard to wiping out this epidemic will be vitiated, and it will just go on and on and on.

[occihoff]

I think my response was absolutely germane, and once again you have refused to answer my questions (you know, those things with question marks after them). Your post was little more than a list of all the massive sources of information and opinion you believe in and want me to study, and I told you why I'm not inclined to wander into that morass.

Instead of flooding me with all your trusted expert sources, I would rather have you state succinctly just what it is that you believe and why.

richard,
i took the time to respond in detail to you, though i believed it pointless, as i wrote in conclusion.
your response here has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with with my response. at least try.

[Jude Iam]

this is a no-win discussion: when i present the ample basis for my views, you don't care to examine it ("...wander into that morass") but repeatedly insist that i say what i believe and why.
when i do, you write that others "as educated and more educated" have different views, though you don't offer the studies, articles, etc.

once again, i will say: it is clear to me that vaccinations are extremely problematic; that censorship is rampant and strategic. since you will not do your own exploration, there is no point in further discussion.

I think my response was absolutely germane, and once again you have refused to answer my questions (you know, those things with question marks after them). Your post was little more than a list of all the massive sources of information and opinion you believe in and want me to study, and I told you why I'm not inclined to wander into that morass.

Instead of flooding me with all your trusted expert sources, I would rather have you state succinctly just what it is that you believe and why.