Discussions with Trump supporters

[podfish]

Madison wrote in “Federalist No. 10.” The Framers designed the American constitutional system not as a direct democracy but as a representative republic, where enlightened delegates of the people would serve the public good. ...The Founders designed a government that would resist mob rule.
They didn’t anticipate how strong the mob could become.

come on.. are you alluding to those terrifying mobs of lefties trying to get free stuff at the expense of helpless corporations? Anyway the concept of a representative republic does not require that certain groups are given wildly disproportionate representation. That's a bug, not a feature and conflating that flaw with its intended purpose is disingenuous at best

[occihoff]

So do you think that the Electoral College serves those purposes? As far as I can see it only gives the "enlightened delegates" of low population "conservative" states like Montana and North Dakota far more power than liberal voters like me have.

And how well do you think those "cooling mechanisms" are working?

Madison wrote in “Federalist No. 10.” The Framers designed the American constitutional system not as a direct democracy but as a representative republic, where enlightened delegates of the people would serve the public good. They also built into the Constitution a series of cooling mechanisms intended to inhibit the formulation of passionate factions, to ensure that reasonable majorities would prevail.

The Atlantic: America Is Living James Madison’s Nightmare
The Founders designed a government that would resist mob rule.
They didn’t anticipate how strong the mob could become.

[cyberanvil]

come on.. are you alluding to those terrifying mobs of lefties trying to get free stuff at the expense of helpless corporations? Anyway the concept of a representative republic does not require that certain groups are given wildly disproportionate representation. That's a bug, not a feature and conflating that flaw with its intended purpose is disingenuous at best

#1 Yes
#2 Living Constitutionalists need not apply - dismissed

[eddierosenthal]

Trump has said and believes what he says - "that Mexicans are criminals and rapists" and that there were “very fine people on both sides” of a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va. He also said that four congresswomen of color should “go back to the countries they came from", even though three were born in the United States and the fourth is a naturalized citizen.

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In the meantime comments made by Biden corrected himself immediately realizing his gaffe, to say and make the point that all children deserve a fair shot, and children born into lower-income circumstances are just as smart as those born to wealthy parents. So the hopes of the cartoon is to aggressively bait and switch the reality that is more to the truth - The topic of racism is about Trump and some of his cultist followers and cannot be made about anyone else, no matter how much diversion is attempted.

The real question is for followers of the failed businessman who opt in to the con game played out in Washington everyday; what will it take for them to get their head out of their proverbial butt and come back to their what we hope were their original American values. We know it's hard for outliers and outsiders to admit their mistake, we can only hope they will give us a chance to forgive them. The cartoon is nice, and tells the inside story of how propoganda works. Be ironical, be aggressive, but never tell the whole story. The whole story is about the hate propped up by this type of lie.

[cyberanvil]

While Gavin Newsom travels to El Salvador on a goodwill trip to encourage more "visitors", a wall is being built to protect us from these same people.
Thank you Mr. President for answering the requests from the Border Patrol and many others for help in stemming the tide of illegals.

[cyberanvil]

The real question is for followers of the failed businessman who opt in to the con game played out in Washington everyday; what will it take for them to get their head out of their proverbial butt and come back to their what we hope were their original American values. We know it's hard for outliers and outsiders to admit their mistake, we can only hope they will give us a chance to forgive them. The cartoon is nice, and tells the inside story of how propoganda works. Be ironical, be aggressive, but never tell the whole story. The whole story is about the hate propped up by this type of lie.

One could take you seriously if your quotes weren't so inaccurate. Be that as it may, being a deplorable, what do I know. I of course disagree with all you say.

[eddierosenthal]

You mean the people fleeing atrocities in their lives, and the crisis created by your leader? Of course if you stop the natural flow and prevent them from their legal requests you are going to create a humanitarian crisis. He planned that, or did he? Do you think he actually thought it out? These "criminals and rapists" are housewives and children. Having no compassion for others, and only being the witting tool of the "leader", i do not expect anything but savagery and no real argument. As for the argument they are peddling dope, we have the actual facts that they do not travel that way any longer. And as for being a deplorable, yes. One wonders what motivates the ignorance, and the willing stupidity of that "thinking". Do you actually have an answer for us? Or some more platitudes and angry memes? My president killed Osama Bin Laden, your president just signed a steel column with his name, a column that was built on a wall by my president.

While Gavin Newsom travels to El Salvador on a goodwill trip to encourage more "visitors", a wall is being built to protect us from these same people.
Thank you Mr. President for answering the requests from the Border Patrol and many others for help in stemming the tide of illegals.

[eddierosenthal]

If you want to have a discussion have at it, but you have no facts, only some sort of magic wand. You wave it all you want, but have no words to discuss this thing called your "leader". Every day is an outrage to democracy and the well being of our citizens. That also includes you as well. Today he waives California rights to have decent air, tomorrow you will be breathing in and out and wondering what went wrong.

One could take you seriously if your quotes weren't so inaccurate. Be that as it may, being a deplorable, what do I know. I of course disagree with all you say.

[sealwatcher]

Our governor should be offering amnesty and restitution to the families of the people who were murdered by the death squads in El Salvador, who worked with this country's CIA. It's frightening to see the refusal to look at the question of why are the people coming from the Americas, so many, and why now? The grim horsemen of the apocalypse who ravaged the country of El Salvador while rewarding the elites, were followed by failed harvests, children born into poverty, and now drought from the climate crisis that eventually will affect us all.

Not my president. Not at all.

While Gavin Newsom travels to El Salvador on a goodwill trip to encourage more "visitors", a wall is being built to protect us from these same people.
Thank you Mr. President for answering the requests from the Border Patrol and many others for help in stemming the tide of illegals.

[Mayacaman]

I just must say that this dialog is important, whatever anyone may think; because We, as Americans, Must communicate, as citizens, and as neighbors, if we are not to engage in a bloody & unnecessary civil war. So I thank you, chilluns, for communicating. Again, Thank You. I am listening to your dialog... It is not in vain.

[podfish]

... Today he waives California rights to have decent air, tomorrow you will be breathing in and out and wondering what went wrong.

no, he won't, nor will most Trump supporters. This is also a discussion of values. Many people sincerely believe the world's resources need to be more effectively exploited. That group isn't going to be swayed by appeals to 'save the planet' -- not that they completely dismiss it, but it's secondary in their minds.

I think of Robert Duval in Apocalypse Now, admiring "the smell of napalm in the morning - it smells like victory!"

[eddierosenthal]

Quite right; those that are home schooled by Fox News will not have it, as they are validated every day by right wing commentary. Spoon fed they have no other dish to their liking. On the other hand its not likely i will be swayed by it, as i am inoculated from it. What is funny is that i used to listen to Glenn Beck when he had a radio show, as i thought it was humor. And i also used to listen to Savage, although if i remember correctly i rarely agreed with him, it was entertaining. One wonders at what point entertainment becomes real, when fiction becomes reality.

For me, reality has at least two views, but in my case right wing views are not one of those. My two views are one external, fact based reality with evidence, statistics, and science based authority. My other view is internal, where those things do not apply, or at least i try not to let them in, it is a spiritual reality. In that view ambition leads to cruelty, which i try to avoid. On the outside you can see that ambitious people, become cruel, and people become objects of competition, not humane at all. It seems to me the right wing, the republicans, are very competitive, even evangelical about their point of view. So in their handling of the world they step on people as things that are in their way. I am not saying all dems are pure and angelical. But on the whole, money rules the principles the right stands for, whereas i find more idealism on the left.

no, he won't, nor will most Trump supporters. This is also a discussion of values. Many people sincerely believe the world's resources need to be more effectively exploited. That group isn't going to be swayed by appeals to 'save the planet' -- not that they completely dismiss it, but it's secondary in their minds.

I think of Robert Duval in Apocalypse Now, admiring "the smell of napalm in the morning - it smells like victory!"

[cyberanvil]

Sebastopol, so self righteous, so pure. Don't you realise you live in a glass house? Sebastopol, heal thy self.

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

---

From Barry: The article below is well worth a read!
Be sure to follow the link to the Sonoma West website for the rest of it!

Neighbors revolt over homeless camping in residential areas
By Laura Hagar Rush, Sonoma West Editor, [email protected]
Sep 18, 2019

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At last week’s Sebastopol City Council meeting, a parade of homeowners from Palm Avenue, a half-commercial, half-residential spur of a street just south of the hospital, spoke during public comment about the growing problem of homeless people living on their street in vans, campers and, most recently, a large white bus with blacked-out windows.

Jacob Parker Maloney, whose property is at the end of Palm Avenue in unincorporated Sonoma County, led the charge.

“I’m here because we’ve had a build up of homeless people on our street, some who live there (in vehicles) and also overflow from the bike path and also the Laguna Foundation property,” Maloney said.

“I’m cleaning up hypodermic needles. I’m cleaning up trash in the Laguna and on Palm Avenue. I’m cleaning up excrement and pee bottles that are left on Palm Avenue,” Maloney said. “I’ve done two dump loads with my flat bed from trash from homeless people — mostly people dragging beds back into the brush.”

He’s also found people sleeping in his backyard, including “a guy who was wearing a ski mask and all black who had a knife on him and a bunch of drugs,” Maloney said.

“It’s getting so where my wife feels unsafe running in the evenings,” he said, a sentiment that was echoed by another woman who also lived on Palm Avenue.

“There are a number of times where when I’m driving home, and it feels very unsafe with people kind of hanging out in the middle of the street,” said Rebecca Hochmann. “It feels like a dangerous situation for people driving … and it has definitely felt increasingly uncomfortable going out by myself, like walking to the store or going downtown.”

“It used to feel very safe in our little cul de sac, but it’s definitely turned a corner,” she said. “I am not unsympathetic to the needs of these people, but it’s become more of an issue.”

Another neighbor Robert Groves, a disabled Vietnam veteran who identified himself as “the old man of Palm Avenue,” said he’s had enough.

“I’ve lived there for 35 years. Three years ago a van pulled up there,” he said, and the street got its first homeless person. “He’s brain damaged; his name is Phil. I learned that from a police officer who came out because Phil shambled up to our house — my wife and I were going to lunch one day — and he came up to our car and started screaming gibberish at us, saying my flag is a terrorist flag, and that everybody who lives on this block are terrorists.

“I called the police. They came out and said, ‘Oh, that’s just Phil. He’s harmless.’ Well, Harmless Phil was able to come up to our house and make my wife cry sitting in the car,” he said, noting he doesn’t fly his flag anymore for fear it will set Phil off.

“How come Harmless Phil has to live on our street and terrorize us?” he demanded. “I don’t think that’s fair.”

Continues here

[cyberanvil]

Our governor should be offering amnesty and restitution to the families of the people who were murdered by the death squads in El Salvador, who worked with this country's CIA. It's frightening to see the refusal to look at the question of why are the people coming from the Americas, so many, and why now? The grim horsemen of the apocalypse who ravaged the country of El Salvador while rewarding the elites, were followed by failed harvests, children born into poverty, and now drought from the climate crisis that eventually will affect us all.

Not my president. Not at all.

Can we assume that you are in favor of Reparations for Slavery?

[podfish]

Sebastopol, so self righteous, so pure. Don't you realise you live in a glass house? Sebastopol, heal thy self.

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

Neighbors revolt over homeless camping in residential areas

finally, I sort of agree with you. Of course, I haven't met "Sebastopol", so maybe she's of mixed minds. It might be the (admittedly few) trumpies who are at the forefront of the move to evict them. But probably it's not, probably there are people who generally are advocates for charity and fair treatment.
However, as long as it's not a response of "just get 'm out, I don't care how you do it" - which is indeed the way the current administration treats similar issues, like immigration - it's not essentially hypocritical. But sure, we have an obligation to live our ethics, and should be supportive of efforts to actually solve the problem.

[cyberanvil]

no, he won't, nor will most Trump supporters. This is also a discussion of values. Many people sincerely believe the world's resources need to be more effectively exploited. That group isn't going to be swayed by appeals to 'save the planet' -- not that they completely dismiss it, but it's secondary in their minds.

I think of Robert Duval in Apocalypse Now, admiring "the smell of napalm in the morning - it smells like victory!"

Global Warming 101

[Mayacaman]

cyberanvil wrote:

Sebastopol, so self righteous, so pure. Don't you realise you live in a glass house? Sebastopol, heal thy self.

“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”

Neighbors revolt over homeless camping in residential areas

Thank you, cyberanvil for bringing up the issue of liberal hypocrisy, in the context of the issue of homelessness.

It seems to me that a long-range solution to homelessness would be to make designated areas open to camping & low-budget small house communities. Austin Texas is doing this. There are a variety of solutions available. It would take a lot of energy from devoted social workers & homeless activists. But there is plenty of land in the Western regions of the United States -- areas that are relatively empty.

One of the first things that Ronald Reagan did when he became president was to rescind the Homestead Act of 1862. That was a very bad thing to do. Admittedly, many of the homeless are practically non-functional, and as a consequence, would not be successful at homesteading on their own from scratch. -But the option to make a Homestead on Public Land should be made available again, to the General Public.

Planned communities with gardens & activities would be a more humane way to deal with the homeless problem than has been done so far. That way the homeless would not clutter up the streets of the cities & towns, and they would have some place to call "home." This is a rich country. There is plenty of potential to grow the food to feed all; and plenty of land for all to dwell upon. Bottom line is this: No one should be homeless in America.

[podfish]

cyberanvil wrote:

Thank you, cyberanvil for bringing up the issue of liberal hypocrisy, and the issue of homelessness.

It seems to me that a long-range solution to homelessness would be to make designated areas open to camping & low-budget small house communities. Austin Texas is doing this. There are a variety of solutions available. It would take a lot of energy from devoted social workers & homeless activists. But there is plenty of land in the Western regions of the United States -- areas that are relatively empty.

that's the problem. Of course there's some liberal hypocrisy involved, but there are other forces that make this hard to solve. Especially when you bring in the idea of 'relatively empty' areas in the U.S. That's often a thought had by people who try to imagine themselves in such a situation, but doesn't seem to be one that's held by actual homeless people. Personally, yeah, Slab City seems like a solution if I had no money to live here. But I'm not likely (fingers crossed) to use that solution, and it doesn't work for any of the homeless people I know.

I don't know the breakdown, but I think a huge number of the homeless are 'working poor'. They can't just up & leave for elsewhere. Others, who can't function effectively in the hyper-competitive capitalist society we have, where you basically leak cash as you walk (car insurance, rent, various bills, all pile up on each breath you take), where the basics of life are costly, don't necessarily want to live separated from 'normal' society either.

Unless cities zone areas near town and subsidize creation of inexpensive housing, and unless businesses and residents agree that these 'undesirables' should be accommodated, we'll have homelessness. The people needing housing don't spend enough money to be valuable customers for local businesses, and some are likely to impact the quality of life of those who have the economic wherewithal to house themselves. Of course, plenty of those who do pay rent impact the quality of life of their neighbors too. So it's kind of a big ask for society at large to accept this as the right thing to do... but it seems to me that it is. Just don't imagine that there's some solution out there that won't require people to take some risk, and probably to give up some things they value.

[rossmen]

While clearly there is a vast difference in style, obama and trump are substantially similar. Obama killed the father, Trump the son. Both deport and throw migrants under the bus, fund and build border security. The argument for such cruel policies is last man standing. This is the consensus of our security think tanks and spy agencies. It's why bush invaded Iraq. Today 70 million on the move, within a few years, 1.5 billion. Millions will be from florida. There is no real counter argument, except that the strategy probably won't work. But if serious about leading the us into the future, there is no other option. The reason trump can be a little more honest about the predicted grim future, and still get elected, even the horror, reelected, is because he is a far more entertaining lier than obama.

If you want to have a discussion have at it, but you have no facts, only some sort of magic wand. You wave it all you want, but have no words to discuss this thing called your "leader". Every day is an outrage to democracy and the well being of our citizens. That also includes you as well. Today he waives California rights to have decent air, tomorrow you will be breathing in and out and wondering what went wrong.

[Mayacaman]

rossmen wrote:

While clearly there is a vast difference in style, obama and trump are substantially similar. Obama killed the father, Trump the son. Both deport and throw migrants under the bus, fund and build border security. The argument for such cruel policies is last man standing. This is the consensus of our security think tanks and spy agencies. It's why bush invaded Iraq. Today 70 million on the move, within a few years, 1.5 billion. Millions will be from florida. There is no real counter argument, except that the strategy probably won't work. But if serious about leading the us into the future, there is no other option. The reason trump can be a little more honest about the predicted grim future, and still get elected, even the horror, reelected, is because he is a far more entertaining lier than obama.

So true: "...Obama and Trump are substantially similar. Obama killed the father, Trump the son."

That's the core of a proper psychological analysis: Obama was under the sway of his Oedipus Complex; Trump, under the sway of the Saturn Complex. - Two sides of the same bloody coin.

[Mayacaman]

podfish wrote:

I don't know the breakdown, but I think a huge number of the homeless are 'working poor'. They can't just up & leave for elsewhere. ...

There ain't no easy solutions. What is clear, however, is that all of the presidents from the two major political parties have not taken the necessary steps to alleviate the problem since it began to be a "problem" - again - back in the 1970's. Ronald Reagan, as I suggested, made it immeasurably worse, by ending the Homestead Act of 1862.

In former eras of homelessness - such as the 1890's and the 1930's - there was some safety valve in the vastness of the country, in homeless camps & "Hoovervilles" on the edge of the city, as Woody Guthrie put it. No more...

Here is a Que of documentaries about Homelessness in Seattle, starting with "Seattle is Dying" at the top of the pile.

Most of the folks who are currently clogging up the highways and byways of Seattle are not your "working poor." They tend to be strung out on drugs &/or alcohol. I for one do not wish to see these folks put in FEMA Camps & "liquidated" (a la Nazi Germany) when the "problem" becomes more extreme than it is already.

So perhaps tent cities &/or 'tiny houses' in "new towns" for the dispossessed & dysfunctional would be the best solution. Such places would, of necessity be like the Wild West, with shoot-outs & violence a common occurrence. But Something must be done. To be a lasting solution, it must, of necessity involve more than a band-aid fix.

I seriously doubt that Trump has either the vision or the will to do this, though. But let's be honest about the democrats: Clinton & Obama blew it.

[podfish]

While clearly there is a vast difference in style, obama and trump are substantially similar.

oh, I'm sure you can notice some key differences..

gasoline and tequila are substantially similar too. Both wet, clear liquids, flammable, interesting smell. But if I'm buying a bottle to take to a party with my friends, I better be really careful about which one I choose. True, neither one helps much if I'm trying to have breakfast, but even then there's a real obvious choice as to which one I prefer.

[eddierosenthal]

its certainly invigorating to see so much public viewing of corruption in the Trump Presidency, i don't recall such during the previous administration. Not to mention nepotism, not since Rome anyways. And having foreign governments aid and abet your campaign, that is a real winner there. With over 12000 lies and counting, with the threat of violence during rallies, with the daily entertainment about fake news etc. With the constant distraction of all of these, there is the Americans paying for the wall, the emoluments, etc. So let's be clear, when this current "leader" has so much litigation, so many lawyers, where do you think he will end up? What will his library look like? Will they be spreading his "Art of the Deal" books in prison, where he can sign them, and sell them back to the prison? I mean, he sure will think about it. I don't recall such during the Obama era, unless you read the washingtontimes or something. I guess if the source of education of politics is washingtontimes you could argue a different viewpoint, maybe with a set of completely false "facts". When you bend the truth as much as T does, and you believe like a true believer, anything could be a fact. Climate deniers, birthers, white nationalists, and of course deplorables, all fine people. really fine.

oh, I'm sure you can notice some key differences..

gasoline and tequila are substantially similar too. Both wet, clear liquids, flammable, interesting smell. But if I'm buying a bottle to take to a party with my friends, I better be really careful about which one I choose. True, neither one helps much if I'm trying to have breakfast, but even then there's a real obvious choice as to which one I prefer.

[cyberanvil]

Thank you, cyberanvil for bringing up the issue of liberal hypocrisy, in the context of the issue of homelessness.

Is this a good idea?

Patch: City of Cotati Urges Gov. Newsom To Sign Affordable Housing Bill

[Mayacaman]

Is this a good idea?
City of Cotati Urges Gov. Newsom To Sign Affordable Housing Bill

Yes, it probably will do some good, cyberanvil - for the families of the people podfish describes as the "working poor." Others, who have fallen lower in the scales of functionality need housing too; single people & addicts. "New towns" in regions of arable land, where gardens may be established to achieve sustainable food productivity, are in order.

Most of the homeless would feel they had entered hillbilly heaven if they could have a tiny house in a planned community. -- Would that your POTUS were listening in to our conversation, and that he cared enough to do something about this enormous "problem."

-Because the past two Democrats in the Oval Office dropped the ball on this score - as they also did on the score of recycling bio-degradable garbage as bio-mass & fertilizer back onto the soil, and doing something effective to curtail green-house gas emissions.

[rossmen]

Mmm , gas or tequila, interesting choice. While I have consumed tequila, with many regrets, I have consumed far greater amounts of gas, with far greater regret. So putting aside my emotions... my choice is is clearly gas. I would like to just consume tequila, in moderation, but unfortunatly it's very distracting from my chosen responsibilities, and gas is a necessary part of the equation. I feel real bad about this, I'm working hard to live my desire, but the complexities of the interaction between the world and my desire keep steering me to gas! So in order to accept my own choice and have some modicum of happiness in a the world I acknowledge the power of gas over tequila. Just trying not to mix the two up, that would be really bad!

oh, I'm sure you can notice some key differences..

gasoline and tequila are substantially similar too. Both wet, clear liquids, flammable, interesting smell. But if I'm buying a bottle to take to a party with my friends, I better be really careful about which one I choose. True, neither one helps much if I'm trying to have breakfast, but even then there's a real obvious choice as to which one I prefer.

[cyberanvil]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-threatens-use-epa-tackle-san-francisco-homeless-problem/

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...alifornia.html

[Mayacaman]

cyberanvil cited two links:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-threatens-use-epa-tackle-san-francisco-homeless-problem/

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...alifornia.html

I opened up these links and read the articles, cyberanvil. I can't tell you that the contents of those articles leaves me with any confidence that the current POTUS either understands the gravity of the problem or the length and depth of it. For he says:

"It's a phenomena that started two years ago. It's disgraceful. I'm going to may be and I'm looking at it very seriously, we're doing some other things that you probably noticed like some of the very important things that we're doing now. But we're looking at it very seriously because you can't do that..."

Well, I've got News for Mr. Trump. The problem of Homelessness in America did not start two years ago - though it did begin to get considerably worse two years ago, after he became president. Which fact should give him some cause for thought. But the POTUS fobs off the blame for the homeless crisis in the cities of the west coast on the "liberals" who are running San Francisco, and Los Angeles. He could have added, Portland, and Seattle, also - for they have all reached Crisis level.

TRUMP: And, you know, we're really not very equipped as a government to be doing that kind of work. That's not really the kind of work that the government probably should be doing. We've never had this in our lives before in our country. And it's not only those few cities, it's a couple of other ones.

CARLSON: No, it's a lot of cities.

TRUMP: At the same time, most of our cities are doing great. But if you look at some of these, they are usually sanctuary cities run by very liberal people and the states are run by very liberal people. But the thing that nobody can figure out is do these governors or mayors, do they really think this is a positive? Do they really think this is okay? Because it's not. It's destroying their city. And it's destroying a whole way of life, and it's not our country. It's not what our country is all about.

-The implication being that the "liberals" are making this all happen in order to make Trump look bad. What a massive ego that man has. -And what a tremendous lack of empathy for the downtrodden. He has never in his life been in a situation where he has had to sleep in a car overnight. He has always slept in swank hotels.

I have a suggestion for the sitting POTUS - for the current one, and also for all who may come: Build "new towns" for the homeless and the dispossessed. It is not alright that tens of thousands of people are living in squalor and desperate poverty on the streets of our cities.

Most of the homeless in the United States of America have gravitated to the West Coast. This is primarily because of Climate. In the South, the police tend to arrest & deport the homeless - at least as far as the county line."Move on, move on, keep moving..." Winters in the Midwest and the East tend to be brutal and sometimes deadly for those who live out-of-doors.

The West Coast also has the preponderance of Timber lands owned by the huge timber corporations that grew up in the late nineteenth century - in violation of the Homestead act of 1862.

Under the terms of the Homestead Act of 1862, no one person was allowed to acquire more than one hundred and sixty acres of the "Public Domain." Of course there were many, many violations of these terms - and the Pacific Railroad Act - also of 1862 - gave millions of acres and whole sections (square miles) in a vast checkerboard throughout the West to the Railroad Barons. O well, "White Man speak with forked tongue." What else is new?

But the Homestead Act - although it was rescinded by Ronald Reagan in 1981 - may yet supply the legal leverage whereby sufficient Lands may be wrested from the grip of the Timber Corporations; Lands on which "new towns" that could house the homeless might be established.

There is no statute of limitations on Fraud - and it is clear, from the confessions of one Stephen Puter, that the vast holdings of the Timber Corporations, e.g. Weyerhauser, Georgia-Pacific, Louisiana-Pacific, et cetera, were all acquired by Fraud. Stephen Puter was the fixer, or comprador, for the plutocrats who acquired the millions of acres of timber lands in the Pacific Northwest in the late nineteenth century, in violation of the Homestead Act of 1862.

Those plutocrats lived in places like Hyde Park, Chicago, and Beacon Hill, Boston, and never had to venture out of their mansions to do the dirty work of Acquisition. It was all done for them by Stephen Puter - who was also made the fall guy when these nefarious doings became public knowledge. He wrote his book as a "tell all" from prison, after he was made to walk the plank & take the fall.

In 1908 there were a series of Class-Action Lawsuits that sought to free these lands from the ownership of the Timber Corporations. One of the last things that Teddy Roosevelt did when he left office, however, was to quash those lawsuits.

Here is a link to the pdf of Stephen Puter's {very important} book, "Looters of the Public Domain." I hope that some retired leftover idealist lawyers from the 60's take up this Issue and run with it.

[occihoff]

I admire your scholarship and good writing, Mayacaman.

[cyberanvil]

cyberanvil cited two links:


I opened up these links and read the articles, cyberanvil. I can't tell you that the contents of those articles leaves me with any confidence that the current POTUS either understands the gravity of the problem or the length and depth of it.

What I find funny is that Newsom and all the other Progressive pundits like to trumpet how CA is an economic powerhouse (thank you Silicon Valley and Hollywood). And yet, the State wants federal handouts. What's up with that? Perhaps the Bullet Train wasn't a good idea after all.