City Proposes Pine Grove Square development to replace parking lot by Hopmonk

[Mrs. Wacco]

So if I understand you correctly, what you object to is that the City spent money, not that parking is displaced. You're OK with parking being lost if its an outside developer but not the City. Please clarify.

How about the city publicly stating it's willing to sell it to a developer who does the paperwork and studies themselves? Why are we paying for this? I much rather pay to verify a developer's plan than waste money on what we "could" be doing.

[rossmen]

The city paid for and helped design the parking study so the development concepts will be more attractive to a developer. The city is looking for a private partner and trying to make the investment less risky by prerunning the approval process for a certain type of development.

Visionary, proactive, ambitious, risky, pushy, pick your adjective according to how you like the concepts of four story infill housing with ground floor retail instead of parking in the center of town. The council's agenda definitely affected the integrity of the parking study, existing businesses have valid concerns and it probably would kill the hopmonk as a live music venue.

The pgs concepts are a fundamental redesign of sebtowns core, with many consequences some of which no one will see...

[Icssoma]

Think it is disingenuous to say it will kill the hop monk as a music venue. i have no trouble parking and walking a block, or two, or three to visit or see something i want to see.
since parking is easy in Sebastopol, the examples of how people go places and walk, are limited to events like the apple blossom parade, or the 4th of july fireworks.
i work to avoid the 5 minutes of slow traffic in the last few blocks of hwy 12, the delay doesn't stop me from meeting at coffee catz or go to santa rosa.
as a native san franciscan, who has lived here for over 20 years, i know that music lovers have no trouble walking a block or two or three, looking for parking. we also know how to go places in a group.
the shows that sell out at hopmonk will still sell out. if i want to go to an open mike parking and walking is a fine option.
i believe that parking should be a net zero, or a small loss. regardless, my legs work in rain and sun, and my love for music, food, or seeking beauty is not determined by parking.
don't believe that local businesses, including hop monk, are counting on people who can have front door parking.
when i go to the post office and run another errand, i regularly walk 3 blocks as opposed to getting in my car and driving and parking again.
i believe as lovers of the planet and exercise, and "good things", we will find our way, we are not talking about significant road blocks.
parking does make a difference when i shop for groceries. happy to park anywhere that a grocery cart will go.
don't think i am a rare bird.

[ChefJayTay]

So if I understand you correctly, what you object to is that the City spent money, not that parking is displaced. You're OK with parking being lost if its an outside developer but not the City. Please clarify

I actually don't care about the parking. I live less than 2 blocks away and am not in need of parking. I care about the open space in the city, the trees on the plot, the museum, and a pleasant walk to the post office I regularly take through this space. However, I realize my opinions are not the only that matter when it comes to the property.

The city paid for and helped design the parking study so the development concepts will be more attractive to a developer. [...]

You should have stopped there. You honestly think the city would have ANY issue finding a developer? No.
This is how politicians get in trouble for handing projects to friends.

[beshiva]

Think it is disingenuous to say it will kill the hop monk as a music venue. i have no trouble parking and walking a block, or two, or three to visit or see something i want to see....

Maybe NOT everyone can walk or jog as conveniently as You? !

[cw707]

I have had difficulty finding parking several times during the day, both in the current parking lot, and along the streets surrounding that area. Walking is great, unless you have physical limitations that make walking challenging. So I appreciate parking that is close to the businesses I need to go to. If there's no close parking, I don't shop.

[Icssoma]

i believe we have handicap parking spaces for those who are not able to walk short distances. last sunday i was at hop monk (there was a benefit/event), and i went past 3 such spaces to park by cvs (where there were more spaces for people with disabilities).
when i have not been able to walk distances (surgery/broken bones), i have been dropped off near the event and my friend has parked the car.
i have done the same for family members who are unable to walk a block.
that's what friends & handicapped parking spaces are for--and then their are walkers, and mechanized walkers....
(i have a funky right foot, so my jogging days are behind me).

[cw707]

There are some assumptions here: that everyone with physical challenges has a handicap placard; that there are always open parking spaces; that everyone has friends available and able to drop them off, etc. Also I've read about the available parking at CVS. I didn't support that CVS going into that location, and I don't shop there, so I won't be using their parking spaces. I spent one day about 3 weeks ago trying to find parking in that downtown area, including all the streets, the parking by WF and their lot. I finally thought to try the parking lot in front on Community Market. No parking available in the front of that huge building, and none in the back of it, and none on any of those streets in that area. Really, I tried everywhere for about 20-30 minutes. I finally gave up and went home. Yes, on other days I don't have that problem, but on many while not as bad as that one day, it's been a problem for me. Those are my experiences, so thanks for listening.

i believe we have handicap parking spaces for those who are not able to walk short distances....

[Icssoma]

good to know. i have never had a challenging parking experience in Sebastopol. (outside of major events when i expected difficulties and was able to plan for parking. i opposed cvs. i understand that 1/2 of that parking is for the public, & part of the "deal" (to make something we were forced to have a touch more palatable. given that, i would encourage you to use those spaces. others who were more involved in the CVS final deal have posted about a good portion of that parking being public.)

There are some assumptions here: that everyone with physical challenges has a handicap placard;...

[Barry]

... Also I've read about the available parking at CVS. I didn't support that CVS going into that location, and I don't shop there, so I won't be using their parking spaces. ...

ALL PARKING SPACES AT CVS
ARE AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC USE!



This was a condition of their approval that they agreed to.
You should have no compunction about parking there and not shopping there.
You should consider it a public lot.

[Dorothy Friberg]

I love the idea of this project. Perhaps they could be "walk up" apartments for the un-autoed among us. In the heart of town - new vitality to an already friendly place. Of course there would need to be limited spaces for deliveries, etc. (the etc. is the tricky part). Let's start saying CAN DO instead of CAN'T DO.

[Mrs. Wacco]

Thank you for your forward-thinking!

I love the idea of this project. Perhaps they could be "walk up" apartments for the un-autoed among us. In the heart of town - new vitality to an already friendly place. Of course there would need to be limited spaces for deliveries, etc. (the etc. is the tricky part). Let's start saying CAN DO instead of CAN'T DO.

[Sieglinde]

Not using the available parking at CVS is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Using the parking does not help or harm CVS.

[cw707]

Yes, you are probably right. Regardless, it's just my own personal protest to a view (the lovely cement parking lot in the center of town) that I didn't want to see. I'm funny that way; I feel like every time I go along with something that I don't want, I'm supporting the next attempt by someone to do the same type of thing again. (I also won't do any shopping at Whole Foods until they stop selling dead, highly intelligent octopus in their fresh seafood counters.) My objections as you point out don't impact CVS, or Whole Foods, but sometimes I feel I have to make my own stand about something, even if that stand is just an internal one. Regarding parking, I suppose the next thing someone will say is that I shouldn't complain about parking if I'm not willing to use the CVS parking. Okay, I won't complain. In fact, I never even considered parking there when I did complain about parking; that parking lot is never an option for me, so it wasn't even in my thoughts. But thanks for your thoughts everyone.

Not using the available parking at CVS is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Using the parking does not help or harm CVS.

[rossmen]

When parking becomes tighter in seebasstoepull, this lot being full will negatively impact cvs . I wonder how robust the city settlement with them is. I used to park at the srplaza for free. Also the lot where the Sebastopol hotel parking will be. Free and abundant parking has been essential to the economic vitality of Sebastopol as well as strip malls and shopping malls.

Personally I wish cars were illegal. But then my anarchist tendencies get in the way. And I think computer driven cars need to hold their own on racetracks, not so different than our roadways, before we let them on. They don't need to win, just not get smashed out of the way.

And that's where I think the pgs concepts are. What was the word before the council meeting? Object now for lawsuit fodder? And what's the word now? Keep objecting, plenty of time? Ouch!

Not using the available parking at CVS is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Using the parking does not help or harm CVS.

[pixeee nation]

So let's follow this logic....if the City sells the property, then the City is not in control of the property anymore and someone will take parking away to build something-no one buys real estate to do nothing. So what's the benefit to the community if the City sells the lot?

Exactly...whenEVER there is money exchanged ....We MUST keep aware that it is mostly to fluff someone's pocket and NOT for the "Public Good" ...jest sayn....Thank You for making sense. <3 e.m.c.

[pixeee nation]

... i have no trouble parking and walking a block, or two, or three to visit or see something i want to see. since parking is easy in Sebastopol...

It is easy to say that NOW; however the population of Sonoma County is growing like cRazy (lets face it) and there are those that may not be able to walk even a couple of blocks i.e Elderly or Wheelchair or Broken Legs etc...and TRUST parking is key to a shopping area ...as much as i am NOT a fan of vehicles per se they are at times a "necessary evil"...and We must START looking at the way OUR future will play out..Care Infinite e.m.c

[podfish]

It is easy to say that NOW; however the population of Sonoma County is growing like cRazy (lets face it) and there are those that may not be able to walk even a couple of blocks i.e Elderly or Wheelchair or Broken Legs etc...and TRUST parking is key to a shopping area .....

if you're elderly with a broken leg, getting in your car, driving to town, parking, getting your stuff back into the car, driving to god knows where you found a place to live, unloading, getting back into bed --- is way harder than leaving your new digs downtown to do the same shopping.

More parking isn't a solution to less housing. As you observe, the population is growing like cRazy. So where do they drive their cars home to?

[1104GT]

You just made a great argument for building housing in town. Then the elderly, mobility challenged etc.will actually live close to services and won't need to drive and park.

Parking is NOT the key to the the success of a shopping area. Housing within walking distance is.

Those who live in places where they need to drive to goods and services do so by choice. They chose to deal with parking challenges. I don't think it is incumbent upon the those who live in town to sacrifice their quality of life to provide parking in prime locations to those who chose to drive to town.

...there are those that may not be able to walk even a couple of blocks i.e Elderly or Wheelchair or Broken Legs etc....

[ChefJayTay]

I'm curious how many people think the city will see a $30,000 profit from the development of this space...
We're talking the sale of the property, not some fantasy about tax dollars offsetting real estate.
Are we even going to recover the costs of this idiotic study?

[jerichsalud]

The reality is that there is a dire need for housing. I was born in Sebastopol, have a Masters degree and am a working professional, and it is really difficult to find housing in Sebastopol let alone Sonoma County that I can afford. If you are not directly experiencing the severe housing crisis yourself, many, many, people are and especially after the fires.

Another important reality is that things change. Heck, the train used to run right through downtown and through where this very parking lot is. That is not to say that means automatically that we should have housing in this parking lot, but among other things we do need to be weary of the severe housing crisis and how to address it.

The housing crisis is in large part due to that since the great recession the building of housing has decreased significantly and not kept up with increased demand. In fact, since 2008 funds for affordable housing in California have decreased by 87%, and with Trump's tax plan there will be even less funding.

We need housing and now we need to figure out where. Some questions we might want to consider include-- How many places can we viably build housing in Sonoma County and Sebastopol? Do we want housing to be downtown, dense, with easy access to transportation and services so that we can limit environmental and climate impacts or do we want sprawl into our green areas, or do we say, go somewhere else? We also need to ask ourselves what kind of compromises we might need to make to create this needed housing, and we might need to consider if we make these changes such as adding housing downtown how can we make the most of this, will this mean improving walkability, bikability, public transportation etc?

Maybe there are other lots in the town of Sebastopol that would work, but this is also a City owned lot and just like Santa Rosa is doing, selling/leasing their property for developing housing, this may be a way to use some of the little land that is left for building and possibly offer a more reasonable price for a developer to develop housing while also meeting our climate goals etc.

It is not a simple issue or question, but a very important one about the future of our town and communities. The area is becoming increasingly less affordable for many residents, families, and workers and we need to provide more housing. Lets find some solutions!

[Mrs. Wacco]

Thank you for your very thoughtful and accurate post!

The reality is that there is a dire need for housing. ...

[Icssoma]

thank you for laying this out.
i am a green zone/open space/agricultural advocate (which means higher density in town) given that i want more housing.
the key is compromise. we have stagnation without compromise.
what we have now is untenable.
i want to move forward with housing and believe this is a good site.
is it possible to agree on housing, this site (or other downtown sites which are city-owned, or with few impediments), and look at what we need to do to go forward?

The reality is that there is a dire need for housing. ...

[Barry]

I'm curious how many people think the city will see a $30,000 profit from the development of this space...
We're talking the sale of the property, not some fantasy about tax dollars offsetting real estate. ...

Expand

According to the financial feasibility study that was presented to the city council on June 6, 2017, the estimated value of the land (based on it's mixed use development potential) was either $989,000 or $1,320,000 based on the 2 schemes studied.

See the full feasibility study here.

Are we even going to recover the costs of this idiotic study?

If the Pine Grove Square concept doesn't go forward, then the cost won't be recovered, at least directly (which is common for projects that are explored but not realized). It could be argued that there is still value in having the study for any other parking related issues that come before the city in the future.

[pixeee nation]

After reading everyone's opinion ...i feel that i am happy that at least people care enough to have one. For me personally i am a Farmer at Heart so i need to look at Roots of things a lot. Sadly we ALL should have been looking at the future in more sustainable ways YEARS ago and MOST were not. Same thing with the Fires ; it was PAINFULLY obvious that there has been TOO much poor planing and apparently TOO many have been concerned with financial gain in pretty much every aspect of OUR Lives ...there are those that put financial gain above COMMON SENSE and then we find ourselves trying to re configure ...when anyone that Plants or Builds anything knows that it is WAY better to PLAN things out as Good as You can RATHER than TRY to fix it later.

For me the Fires at least in most of the areas that burned they should have ONLY been allowed to build with somewhat MORE "Fire Proofing" materials ...i.e Adobe , Metal , Brick ...(please forgive as i am not an engineer perhaps there are better things than i'm mentioning) i know for a fact that there are composite "shingles" that are NOT only insulating (they also keep the home warmer in Winter & cooler in Summer) & they are more Fire retardant & they are "Greener" and it should be mandatory to have Water tanks on Land prone to Fires..

i only use the Fire as an example ...the bigger issue here to me is the MOST HUGE problem World wide pretty much ...Populations are out of hand ..when i was growing up We had "Zero Population Growth" ..now hardly anyone EVER mentions it..so now we have DENSE populations rising everywhere & in OUR Country EVERYONE mostly wants a vehicle & the "right" to have UNLIMITED amounts of Children along with MANY other things to be "comfortable" but at what cost?.

To be honest i am moving away because i see this is a big problem ...The Bay Area is so densely populated now & so many are rushing around to jobs to pick up their Children etc..that more & more are driving crazy too. i Love Sonoma and most of its People however "mo people mo problems" ...

i appreciate EVERYTHING that is being thought here . It is important that We as a 'Community" of THE WORLD care enough to take the time to make changes that are SURELY needed however We must look to FIX THE ROOTS in order for the FUTURE to be more easier to sustain for OUR Children.

As far as i see bureaucracy has NOT been very clean in TOO many ways & that enables distrust to grow because TOO many are making money on the side and NOT caring TRULY about the future ....i Pray that WE as a whole can get it together NOW not 10 or 20 years from now..and speaking & dealing with reality of our past mistakes is very important which EVER decision is made in ANY of these special Towns & Cities futures. We have ALREADY passed the half way mark on protecting OUR Environment & must now mop up & DO things different. i Love You ALL .Please forgive the length of this ...Care Infinite <3

[MikeH]

Some apartments for persons without cars, even deed restricted, and lease restricted, and coming without a parking space associated with the apartment.

And some very small studios, in the neighborhood of 400 square feet. Studios are in very short supply.

Typically you see two or more cars per apartment for the residents who live there; so you see the streets near apartments packed with cars parked at the curb.

I admire people who choose to live car-free, and have met some whose main mode of transport is the bike, supplemented by public transport and occasionally renting a car for vacations or out-of-town trips.

[Dorothy Friberg]

Along this bent ("parking in the neighborhood") I personally am doing exactly that two days a week, in different neighborhoods in my van. I"d like to dispense with the van and have a place with electricity and running H2O.
Therefore such a project holds promise for me although I may be too low income for Sebastopol. The quality of life here is attractive, though much of what interests me is overpriced (like classes @ $7+ per) Perhaps I can rent one of the small store fronts for 2nd hand stuff. (no one is allowed to steal my ideas)

[Barry]

Some apartments for persons without cars, even deed restricted, and lease restricted, and coming without a parking space associated with the apartment....

Is this possible? Are there any developments in Sonoma County (or elsewhere) that are explicitly for those that are car-free??

[Barry]

I've added a POLL on
whether you support the
Pine Grove Square concept
to convert downtown parking lot by Hopmonk
to a mixed-use housing development
to the top of this thread on the website.

To see the poll and vote,
click here.

(note that the votes are public)

[cw707]

Question: I didn't see this info anywhere, but is this proposed housing being designated specifically for seniors and disabled folks? Not sure how this would work, and probably need to be lower income housing for them as well maybe? Also, many people with disabilities have vehicles that they would need to use for services outside of walking distance and Sebastopol. Where would they park? I may have missed some initial info about this project; if so, apologies. Any info would be helpful. Thanks.

I love the idea of this project. Perhaps they could be "walk up" apartments for the un-autoed among us. In the heart of town - new vitality to an already friendly place. Of course there would need to be limited spaces for deliveries, etc. (the etc. is the tricky part). Let's start saying CAN DO instead of CAN'T DO.