Not Looking for Relationship

[Star Man]

I am self-employed, working daily as a psychotherapist in my own practice. I do not use drugs, and I rarely watch TV or use my cell phone. I practice shamanism and have been running sweat lodges for 22 years. My spiritual practice is the core of my life. I also sing the blues and ballads, and I play guitar. I am kind, respectful, and compassionate. And I am not looking for a relationship.

What I am looking for is a place to garden and to have a local sweat lodge (I've been pouring water over in the Capay Valley for years). I would love to have someone to converse with, someone intelligent, educated, aware, emotionally grounded, and game-free. And....I am not looking for a relationship.

Star Man

[mplaygarden]

There are many kinds of relationships.. After reading your post I believe you may be an interesting human to know..LovelyRebekah

[meherc]

Well, that's nice. I assume you are not interested in sex either. I am interested in why you would post in the
relationship section if you don't want one. That's like posting in the business services section just to say you don't have a business.

I am self-employed, working daily as a psychotherapist in my own practice. I do not use drugs, and I rarely watch TV or use my cell phone. I practice shamanism and have been running sweat lodges for 22 years. My spiritual practice is the core of my life. I also sing the blues and ballads, and I play guitar. I am kind, respectful, and compassionate. And I am not looking for a relationship.

What I am looking for is a place to garden and to have a local sweat lodge (I've been pouring water over in the Capay Valley for years). I would love to have someone to converse with, someone intelligent, educated, aware, emotionally grounded, and game-free. And....I am not looking for a relationship.

Star Man

[Star Man]

Well, that's nice. I assume you are not interested in sex either. I am interested in why you would post in the
relationship section if you don't want one. That's like posting in the business services section just to say you don't have a business.

In the land of the earnest, irony is not often well understood or received.

[Star Man]

There are many kinds of relationships.. After reading your post I believe you may be an interesting human to know..LovelyRebekah

Thank you so much for this nice post. I work hard at being an interesting person, because I have to live with myself, and if I am not interesting to me, I will be bored and unhappy. The fact that you responded so cogently suggests you may be an interesting human to know as well.

[Star Man]

I see that it's been a couple of years since I published this post. Nothing has changed. I continue to work hard at my practice. I continue to plunge ever deeper into my unconscious. I continue to meditate and run sweats. I continue to not look for a relationship. By not looking for a relationship, I keep myself open to whatever emerges from Mystery. Life is good, challenging, and fulfilling. Aho!

I am self-employed, working daily as a psychotherapist in my own practice. I do not use drugs, and I rarely watch TV or use my cell phone. I practice shamanism and have been running sweat lodges for 22 years. My spiritual practice is the core of my life. I also sing the blues and ballads, and I play guitar. I am kind, respectful, and compassionate. And I am not looking for a relationship.

What I am looking for is a place to garden and to have a local sweat lodge (I've been pouring water over in the Capay Valley for years). I would love to have someone to converse with, someone intelligent, educated, aware, emotionally grounded, and game-free. And....I am not looking for a relationship.

Star Man

[Star Man]

l continue to not look for relationship in the same way I continue to not look for rattlesnakes. Star Man

I see that it's been a couple of years since I published this post. Nothing has changed. I continue to work hard at my practice. I continue to plunge ever deeper into my unconscious. I continue to meditate and run sweats. I continue to not look for a relationship. By not looking for a relationship, I keep myself open to whatever emerges from Mystery. Life is good, challenging, and fulfilling. Aho!

[Star Man]

I have found a relationship even though I was not looking for one. What I found was a relationship with my self. When I was young I thought I needed someone to complete me. Then I realized no one could and so I stopped looking for a relationship and that is when I discovered my self. I am one with the Universe. We all are, whether we know it or not. Through having a relationship with my self, I am in relationship with the Universe. This knowing has Coyote all over it. Thank you Coyote. Aho Mitakuye Oyasin.

l continue to not look for relationship in the same way I continue to not look for rattlesnakes. Star Man

[Star Man]

There are many kinds of relationships.. After reading your post I believe you may be an interesting human to know..LovelyRebekah

Yes, Lovely Rebekah, there are many kinds of relationships. Yes, Rebekah, I am in interesting human to know. Hope to hear from you. john(at)johnomaha(dot)com

[Star Man]

Well, that's nice. I assume you are not interested in sex either. I am interested in why you would post in the
relationship section if you don't want one. That's like posting in the business services section just to say you don't have a business.

Thank you meherc for your comments. I posted in the relationships section because pushing for a relationship is off-putting. It contaminates. What I am interested in is someone to share with, to talk to, to listen to, and who will listen to me. When I say I'm not interested in relationship, I am speaking of the current definition of relationship where two people who don't really know each other fall into infatuation and have sex right away and that freezes the relationship and it never develops and they watch TV together and look at their cellphones when they're out on a date and don't know how to be interested in each other and have no idea how to develop emotional intimacy and eventually they realize the other is not there to complete them but only to get completed and then the wheels fall off and they separate and the children are devastated. I hope this clarifies.

[starcloud]

Well said...
Starcloud

Thank you meherc for your comments. I posted in the relationships section because pushing for a relationship is off-putting. It contaminates. What I am interested in is someone to share with, to talk to, to listen to, and who will listen to me. When I say I'm not interested in relationship, I am speaking of the current definition of relationship where two people who don't really know each other fall into infatuation and have sex right away and that freezes the relationship and it never develops and they watch TV together and look at their cellphones when they're out on a date and don't know how to be interested in each other and have no idea how to develop emotional intimacy and eventually they realize the other is not there to complete them but only to get completed and then the wheels fall off and they separate and the children are devastated. I hope this clarifies.

[Star Man]

Well said...
Starcloud

From Star Man to Starcloud, I feel heard and seen. Thank you for that beautiful gift.

[Star Man]

One of my poems from a few years ago ends with these lines:

"Difficult man/Difficult man/I am the Difficult man."

I love the Wacco BB. I am amazed that this message, "Not looking for relationship," has been viewed over 1,000 times. Fascinating. I just posted two pieces on the Wacco Talk board a couple of days ago. One is called "Death Song of the Arctic Ice" and the other is "Suicide Civilization." Difficult man. The writings of a difficult man. About 25 people have read those two pieces of writing. No comments. I totally get that the writing is difficult. Challenging. See, this is why I am not looking for relationship. I am a really nice human being. I've said that. But, I am difficult. Not mean. Actually very nice. But complex. Difficult. That's the way I put it in the poem. Coming out of my shell, my self-imposed years-long isolation. Allowing myself to be seen and hopefully known. Wacco has been good to me. Over 1,000 views. Wow.

[Star Man]

I am self-employed, working daily as a psychotherapist in my own practice. I do not use drugs, and I rarely watch TV or use my cell phone. I practice shamanism and have been running sweat lodges for 22 years. My spiritual practice is the core of my life. I also sing the blues and ballads, and I play guitar. I am kind, respectful, and compassionate. And I am not looking for a relationship.

What I am looking for is a place to garden and to have a local sweat lodge (I've been pouring water over in the Capay Valley for years). I would love to have someone to converse with, someone intelligent, educated, aware, emotionally grounded, and game-free. And....I am not looking for a relationship.

Star Man

So, what happens when a Man Who is Not Looking for Relationship meets a very desirable and worthful and talented woman (who also sings just like the Man Who is Not Looking for Relationship)? Ah, the Great Black Hole at the Center of the Relationship Galaxy begins to swallow stars whole, burping out weak cries of sadness-light as it ingests? What happens? The ineluctable force of not looking for relationship meets the immovable object of not looking for relationship. I think that some people get so inured to not looking for relationship that they don't see a worthful relationship when it appears. I realize through this encounter that I am not as obdurately committed to not looking for relationship as I thought. So the reason I stopped--or thought I had-- looking for relationship was because I found out how much it hurts to look for relationship and then get bitten once again by the rattlesnake of relationship. Foolish man. Foolish man. Foolish man. I thought that by camouflaging myself in the disguise of "not looking for relationship" I might find a friend and perhaps someday a partner and maybe even a lover, someone who was not looking for relationship too. Ha ha! The Universe laughs! There will always be pain! There will always be emptiness. Black Holes will always be Black Holes. It's who they are. It's what they do.

[Shandi]

Although I've never actively "looked" for a relationship, I've been involved in many, over my lifetime. We've made a connection through a shared hobby, or work, at a house warming, a garage sale, a gathering, a workshop, and so many other circumstances that brought us together in the same time and place. It happened because we were open to communication and through that in person, eye to eye contact, we found the other person of interest. We thought the connection was important, and didn't walk away without sharing our contact information. One or both of us made the effort to re-connect by sharing an activity that we both enjoyed. That started us on a relationship journey. Sometimes it only lasted a few weeks or months, as we discovered disparate values that were revealed only through experience, and we parted ways. Sometimes those relationships lasted years, until our individual changes made us realize that the relationship was not of the same value as it had been previously. We let go as consciously as possible, but letting go is never without some pain.

The nature of relationships carries the consequences of all human feelings, which flow between joy and sorrow. We cannot escape this. Feelings aren't static, but ebb and flow within us.

Once when I was beginning a new intimate relationship in my 60's, a friend said to me "You're very brave!" I didn't understand what she meant. Later on I could see that she was viewing the painful parts that would eventually arise that prevented her from entering into the adventure of relationship. She chose to remain a lonely, bitter person, rather than take a chance to experience the joy and the pain of the journey. But she didn't avoid pain; rather she avoided the joy that she was protecting herself from.

I think I've never looked for a relationship because I enjoy my own company. I've never felt lonely. I'm open to people, and care about them. From this place of being, I find myself in many relationships. Some are with people I've never met in person. Some are with people I've only shared a few days with, and live on another continent, but continue a meaningful conversation, thanks to the Internet.

If we're doing what we love, we will connect with others who share our passion. That's exciting to me!

[Joe Kinnee]

Well written! Love to write and had a wonderful pen pal for a year ... Katana ... never knew her name. A Gemini, studying philosophy. Not looking for a relationship; have one with a wonderful being i've nicknamed 180 because her mindset is existential/work-obsessed/Darwinian/political with a remarkable ability in astrology WHERE AS I have had scores of 'mystical experiences' - lived in communes, churches, ashrams, cabins, mansions, ghettos and am an advocate of the soul whether YOU believe in one or not. Katana stopped writing me when i wrote that the universe, godmind, creative intelligence, big kahuna, great spirit exists before us and has an underlying program that is ABSOLUTE IN ITS NATURE. A nature that science would call the electro-magnetic field, metaphysics, the morphogenic field and religions, the holy spirit. When not meditating or writing about this ignored reality i repair and remodel dwellings to the symphony of shrieking power tools. Keeps me grounded.
Yours in the spirit of truth, Joe

Although I've never actively "looked" for a relationship, I've been involved in many, over my lifetime. ...

[Star Man]

Dear Meherc,

I posted my comments in the Conscious Relationship section because I hoped to stimulate a discussion of relationships. I said I am not looking for relationship. That is different from "not interested in relationship." I would be interested in a relationship that me the criteria I mentioned. Conversation, mutuality, sharing, compassion, shared spirituality, shared creative expression. Relationship could grow out of those shared qualities. I looked for relationship for years and had many. A marriage of 8 years. As second one of 21 years. I've had a friend for 17 years. There were "benefits" in the beginning, exquisite benefits. Now, separated by 200 miles, we are just good friends. She is "difficult." Think "Welcome to Me" or "Old Baby." I've become more interested in personal self-expression. I am also older. You mentioned not being interested in sex, Meherc. What a complex topic. As I have grown wiser with age, I consider sex as a spiritual experience, a shared tantric ritual, a celebration of the mutuality. So often it was a mere physiological experience. People often rush into sex, and then find that the relationship has become frozen at the developmental stage it had reached when the sex began.. No more growing. Now more knowing.

Star Man

Well, that's nice. I assume you are not interested in sex either. I am interested in why you would post in the
relationship section if you don't want one. That's like posting in the business services section just to say you don't have a business.

[Star Man]

In honor of St. Stupid's Day which is today, April 1, I am going to do something monumentally stupid. That's what we do to honor St. Stupid. It's 7:40 PM. From now until midnight tonight I AM looking for a relationship. Now that is really stupid, Starman.

[Star Man]

In honor of St. Stupid's Day which is today, April 1, I am going to do something monumentally stupid. That's what we do to honor St. Stupid. It's 7:40 PM. From now until midnight tonight I AM looking for a relationship. Now that is really stupid, Star Man.

Well, Star Man, that was really stupid. I allowed myself to look for a relationship. What I learned is that I can look all I want, but 4 hours and 20 minutes is not enough time, and unless someone else is looking for a relationship with a medicine man/psychotherapist/nice guy/ capable of compassion, I am just being stupid. Of course that was the point. I did something stupid and I enjoyed myself. I stopped taking myself so seriously for a few hours. Life is good..

Star Man

[Star Man]

I am self-employed, working daily as a psychotherapist in my own practice. I do not use drugs, and I rarely watch TV or use my cell phone. I practice shamanism and have been running sweat lodges for 22 years. My spiritual practice is the core of my life. I also sing the blues and ballads, and I play guitar. I am kind, respectful, and compassionate. And I am not looking for a relationship.

What I am looking for is a place to garden and to have a local sweat lodge (I've been pouring water over in the Capay Valley for years). I would love to have someone to converse with, someone intelligent, educated, aware, emotionally grounded, and game-free. And....I am not looking for a relationship.

Star Man

The longer I do psychotherapy the more impossible relationships appear to be. I've been watching "The Good Wife" and before that "Scandal" and noticing that on TV anyway, if a man and a woman (usually) look at each other for even a few seconds they are going to be sexual. That is a good model for the first stage of relationships (reference Harville Hendrix) where a couple mutually experiences a warmth in their heart that they call love and they have sex and 2 to 4 years later they're coming to me for help. They each believe the other is "there" to help them, to complete what is missing or wrong in them. They are each wrong, because each of the people is engaged in hopes of completing themselves, not the other. After the oxytocin high subsides, if they haven't had a baby, they "fall out of love" and divorce or move apart.

One reason I am not looking for a relationship is because most people were raised by parents with poor relationship skills and that is what they model for their children and what the children absorb. Their parents' poor relationship skills become the basis for the children's relationship skills. It takes therapy and willingness to work through this. Finding a partner who has worked through all this is improbable.

I am looking for a relationship with myself, and happily I can say I am finding that. I've published two books in the last year and am working on more. I have my spiritual practice, which is fulfilling. I do not need that oxytocin rush. So, I am still not looking for a relationship. Star Man

[occihoff]

But you do come across as rather dour, Star Man. As for relationships, I have found them to be--while often difficult--absolutely essential for personal growth and emotional healing. "Finding a partner who has worked through all this" is not the point. You and I have not worked through all this. We work through our "stuff" by embracing and bouncing off each other. We "complete ourselves" by loving and supporting each other to understand ourselves and each other more deeply in the give-and-take of ongoing relationship. We learn how we each got to have the scars and inadequacies we accumulated in the course of growing up, so we can come to know and forgive and love our inner child and support each other in healing.

The longer I do psychotherapy the more impossible relationships appear to be....

[Star Man]

But you do come across as rather dour, Star Man. ...

You describe yourself as a psychologist and so I assume you know the meaning of the word "projection." Dour? Really?! Please stop taking my inventory. Thank you. I love how you assume that we are alike when you say "You and I have not worked through all this." I have indeed worked through all this and realized I am not looking for relationship. I might be willing to try again if I was 40 or 50, I'm older than that now. This is my wisdom teaching: I am not looking for relationship. My most recent (and final) relationship lasted 17 years. I really tried to be the best partner I could be. I learned to tolerate the emotional abuse of a bipolar borderline narcissist. I'd still be with her but she left saying I had betrayed her by failing to clean the refrigerator to her satisfaction. I do "understand her and myself more deeply." I understand my own part in that tragedy. I apparently am attracted to bipolar borderline narcissists. I am unwilling to take a chance again. For this lifetime I have learned my relationship lessons. Now, Occihof, please just read what I have written, sit with it, realize I have shared a little of myself, and do not judge me. If you say, "Thank you Star Man for sharing" I will be happy.

[wisewomn]

"Anyone who thinks he has his shit together is standing in it." --Stephen Levine

[Star Man]

I started this thread in September 2014 about 5 1/2 years ago. I have lived 5 1/2 years longer since then and am even less inclined to look for relationship. A relationship requires two participants. I have met many very interesting women through WaccoBB through this thread. Some of them have expressed gratitude for my posts here and in other threads. When I write something and post it and someone else reads it, that is a relationship. I like that. Mutual appreciation.

I usually send a private reply to people who offer me gratitude for my poems or prose pieces or opinion pieces. I feel more mature because I am looking for that mutuality, being seen and seeing another. I am not looking for anything else in a relationship. I am very grateful to be older and more mature. I like the energy exchange between me and my readers. I did not know anything about interpersonal energy exchange years ago before I grew up.

There are occasional people who have taken my inventory, told me how sick and disturbed they believe I am for the poems I write, "Despair," for example. (It's on the WaccoTalk board). I used to thrive on encountering people like that, but now I realize I would be just contaminating my own energy field, my own identity, if I did that. I have learned to block people. Only a couple on Wacco. FB? Lots and lots. So I am becoming much more discriminating in the relationships to which I am willing to open myself. I love being an adult. Thanks for reading.

[Star Man]

Today I drove over to the site on an organic farm where I have my sweat lodge. I went to replenish my supply of water from the deep aquifer that flows down from Mt. Shasta and that supplies the farm where my lodge is located. The water is such an essential component of my spiritual practice. I sat with the trees and watched the birds come and go and listened to their many songs. This is my spiritual practice. I greeted the lodge. I lavished praise on the altar. I had brought my drum and I sang every song I know. Well most of them. I sang the "Eagle Song" and a hawk showed up and screeched an accompaniment to my song. I am telling you this because I hope that Mystery will bless me with a Medicine Woman to accompany me on this journey. I want to hear her songs and appreciate them. I have been accused on another thread of being "defensive". Actually, I am protective. I am protecting my energy, my soul, my medicine. I don't mind being alone. I am rarely lonely. I did not know these things when I was young and immature. Now I do. Mitakuye Oyasin. Star Man

[Shandi]

I too am alone, mostly by choice, except for the necessity of live-in home owners. I never feel lonely, and rarely reach out to those who consider themselves to be my friends. "Friend" is a sacred word for me, and I don't use it lightly. My life has been enriched by very few of those.

At this late stage of my life, I've been unexpectedly blessed by two friendships. These have occurred through my responses to their posts on Wacco and Quora. These people don't need me, only my kind presence in words or an in person visit. One lives 5 hours from here, and we've only met once, but communicate by email almost daily. The other one is local, and we also communicate daily if only a brief check in.

I feel such a mutuality with these sacred "friends", and am very grateful to experience this blessing.

I resonate to many of your postings, and accept that we are kindred spirits. My gratitude is to encourage your personal expression, as I do with many other members of Wacco and Quora. It's the least, and the most that I'm able to do at this time, to live my purpose of "inspire, encourage,and support".

... I have been accused on another thread of being "defensive". Actually, I am protective. I am protecting my energy, my soul, my medicine. I don't mind being alone. I am rarely lonely. I did not know these things when I was young and immature. Now I do. Mitakuye Oyasin. Star Man

[occihoff]

Thank you Star Man for sharing. Really! I just read your other posts on this page and very much appreciate the openness and vulnerability expressed there. What is still missing for me, though, is any acknowledgement of your own shortcomings that affected your relationships. It sounds like you see the shortcomings of your woman friends as the only problems. You say you "have indeed worked through all this." I'm sorry, but I just can't buy this. The only "understanding" of your "own part in that tragedy" you express here is that you are "attracted to borderline narcissists." I wonder what your woman friends would say about you if they got involved in this discussion!

I really don't want to "judge" you or put you down. I actually feel friendly toward you, especially after reading your previous posts here. But real friends are open about honestly expressing the things they perceive or seem to perceive about each other, even when these things may be upsetting. Then they can engage in back and forth communication and come to understand themselves and each other more deeply. This is growth.

Remember, we got involved in this discussion in the first place because I told you and some others that I felt you all were putting down Ray and Cyber to the point where you wanted to boot them out of the Wacco discussion community. You perceived their posts as just too negative and objectionable to be allowed to exist here. I stood up for them on free speech grounds, and said if you can't stand their posts don't read them. I told you all that I had actually approached Ray with real interest rather than engaging in the usual tit-for-tat verbal combat, and found him to be interesting, friendly, and even self-critical.

And I still remember Cyber's last post, a howl of pain, rage, and disappointment at being expelled from the community! He raved that you liberals are just as closed-minded as you put down conservatives for being, and I had to admit he had a point. You, Star Man, now express the wish not to be judged, but my original post had simply pointed out that you and others were negatively judging Ray and Cyber to the point that you actually wanted to expunge them from the Wacco community. That is judgmental to the extreme!

You describe yourself as a psychologist and so I assume you know the meaning of the word "projection." Dour? Really?! Please stop taking my inventory. ...

[wisewomn]

I agree, Occi, with your first 2 paragraphs in this post, but not with the last two.

Cyber/Ray contributed nothing to this thread but invective and scorn. It truly is admirable that you reached out to Cyber privately and liked who you found. It's too bad those qualities of his did not come through in his posts. I've no doubt the outcome would have been different if they had.I know from personal experience how disappointing it can be to discover that people you like and admire turn out not to like someone else you like and admire. That's life.

And just to be clear, once again, Cyber and Ray were NOT expunged from the Wacco community. They were MOVED to a new category where their outpourings could be shared with like-minded people. They CHOSE not to continue participating on wacco, period. I'm pretty sure it was because they could no longer take direct, insulting potshots at commenters with whom they disagreed instead of offering reasonable rebuttals. Their contributions added nothing to the conversation and their fun was spoiled when they lost their audience/targets.

Even free speech of necessity has it limits, Occi. Referring back to one of Star Man's comments, there is no blame in shielding oneself from people who are energy sinks and nothing else. God knows there are plenty of them around, starting with the current Administration and working down from there to little old waccobb.

Thank you Star Man for sharing. Really! ...

[occihoff]

Thanks, wisewoman. Actually it was not cyber but Ray I reached out to. And I really don't remember what you and others found so exceptionally awful about his posts. Maybe I'm growing senile. Didn't you even enjoy the cartoons he submitted? I found them weird but fascinating. Remember the one showing Trump looking about 80 pounds lighter and nobly proportioned, standing in the wreckage wreaked by a flying-over attack plane in which the pilot was looking down and cursing because, no matter how he tried, he just couldn't hit Trump? Where could we have seen such a cartoon if Ray had not found and submitted it, and Barry published it?

I think the major reason the more "positive" qualities of Ray did not show is that everybody got carried away in a tit-for-tat verbal battle. Haven't you had experiences in which you responded in a kind, non-combative way to a surly person and found a softer, sweeter side emerge?

Remember, Ray and Cyber dared to venture into "enemy" territory. Why would they do that? They were clearly seeking communication across "enemy" lines, each in their own way. I now understand that Barry did not expel Ray, he left on his own accord. I'm glad to hear that. But how about that final howl of pain and disappointment from Cyber! Didn't that touch you? Didn't it reveal a soft underbelly from that acerbic man? And he had submitted cartoons that were trying to communicate. He was trying in his own way to be a participant in our community, and got soundly rejected.

And now we have long-time poster rossmen sticking out his chin and taunting Big Daddy to go ahead ya big weeny and hit me, uh maybe not, ya go ahead, ya jerk, I dare ya! Will he be next out the door?

I haven't yet seen the new category to which you refer, in which posters deemed too right wing for the regular category can go talk to each other without bothering the rest of us. Sounds pretty pathetic to me.

I agree, Occi, with your first 2 paragraphs in this post, but not with the last two....

[wisewomn]

Thanks for correcting me on the Ray-Cyber thing, Occi. (Note the absence of an A in wisewomn.)

You might go back and read through all their contributions, as you did with Star Man. Refresh your memory. I do remember that most of Ray's cartoon contributions did not strike me as funny, more mean-spirited (like his posts) than anything. I get a number of those from the people I know who support Trump, so maybe I'm inured.

Sure, re soft words. Isn't that in Proverbs 15 of the Bible?
"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."

But there is also this:
"The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness."
And perhaps evne more relevant is this:
"

A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise."

Gotta love some of those old proverbs. (I lived in NC for 7 years and got a lot of practice slinging around Bible-speak in order to make my point.) Pithy and succinct.

You keep stressing how the wacco community failed cyber, ray, and probably rossmen. Have you not considered that perhaps THEY failed? Communication, IMO, is only as successful as the way it is given and received. If people aren't getting your message, then find another way to deliver it. But don't start throwing stones if you seriously want to get your message across. Therefore, I don't share your conviction that cyber/ray were sincerely trying to join our community.

One of your qualities that has repeatedly struck me, Occi, is your kind heart, your determination to find the good in someone/something that does not come across very well.

No one is wholly black or white but there are decidedly different degrees of each shade.

Even Adolf Hitler (to use an overworked example) was a vegetarian and loved animals. (I am in no way suggesting Hitler was a misunderstood good guy.)

As always, it comes back to limits, to boundaries, at least in my understanding of the world, and

to how dark a shade of gray you are willing to tolerate (never mind why and for how long).

Thanks, wisewoman. Actually it was not cyber but Ray I reached out to. And I really don't remember what you and others found so exceptionally awful about his posts. ...