What's the right answer regarding Police Violence?

[Barry]

I haven't been to any of the Police killing protests yet (have you?) though I have read many of the articles. I'm still not seeing a clear message on how to proceed regarding:

1) What should be done about the killing of Andy Lopez by Deputy Erick Gelhaus? Is anybody else culpable? What should be done for the family?

And perhaps yet more importantly,

2) What can be done to prevent this from happening again?

[occihoff]

Unfortunately the very nature of the police job tends to attract people who like the excitement of possible violence on a daily basis and who like to exercise dominance and authority over others. It must be hard to find and recruit people with such characteristics who are also kind and gentle. Would you be able to handle the job? I sure couldn't! I think all we can do is struggle to strengthen civilian control and oversight over the police, and have zero tolerance for police murders.

...
2) What can be done to prevent this from happening again?

[dominus]

I think the manufacturer who made a toy to look like the real thing has some culpability.

... Is anybody else culpable? ...

[arthunter]

This is indeed a difficult situation ... the police are trained to respond quickly to any suggestion of a weapon for good reason ... they must at all times protect themselves and the community ... my uncle was cop so I'm a bit biased about this ... we all said a prayer of thanks when he would return from the job in one piece ...

I think that community oversight is very important ... also, I wonder if there is some kind of police instruction and protocol associated with this situation? ... does anyone know? ... if not, there should be ... any suspect should be given a few seconds to respond to a police prompt unless the weapon is actually pointed at another human being ...

More than anything, I'm hoping that this tragedy serves as a wake-up call to parents out there ... if you're going to provide realistic weaponry toys to your children, then please restrict their use of such to fenced backyards where they are safe from this kind of misunderstanding ...

I am not in favor of these toys ... period. By providing them to our boys ( or girls ) we are desensitizing them in destructive ways and continuing the global problem of violence and murder as a solution to our disagreements and differences. I'd like to see these weaponry toys banned from the face of the earth ... seriously ...

Better that we teach our children to channel their aggression by competing in healthy activities like sports and academic excellence ... there are countless ways to grow a strong ego outside of the realm of senseless violence ...

[occihoff]

While I take your point, I think that child play involving the actions of running around, stalking, hiding, ambushing, and mock attacking involve deep primal, animal instincts that are not in themselves a bad thing at all. The problem is not this kind of play, the problems stem from actual anger fomented by mistreatment in the family, school, and neighborhood. I used to enjoy this kind of play, and would probably enjoy it now (it's really fun!), but I have no desire whatsoever to hurt anybody.

...Better that we teach our children to channel their aggression by competing in healthy activities like sports and academic excellence ... there are countless ways to grow a strong ego outside of the realm of senseless violence ...

[arthunter]

Yes, you're right ... even as a girl I enjoyed that sort of thing ... we used to make forts and throw things at our opponents from them ... great fun and injuries were minor ....

It's not the actions that I object to ... it's the providing of realistic replica guns and assault weapons .... this seems to send a message to the child that it's ok to use one of these things ... what happened to sling shots, and stick swords, and water balloons? ... ok, perhaps I'm dating myself but you get the idea ....

While I take your point, I think that child play involving the actions of running around, stalking, hiding, ambushing, and mock attacking involve deep primal, animal instincts that are not in themselves a bad thing at all. The problem is not this kind of play, the problems stem from actual anger fomented by mistreatment in the family, school, and neighborhood. I used to enjoy this kind of play, and would probably enjoy it now (it's really fun!), but I have no desire whatsoever to hurt anybody.

[forveterans49]

I don't know how any one else feels but I think that since military people have the mindset of shooting first before taking that little moment, no military personnel should be allowed into law enforcement. I know a lot of cops have military backgrounds and probably have done an OK job but I am just thinking that citizens, ordinary citizens, should take police training and that might curb a lot of violence on either end. Police are usually trained to think before shooting; military people are not.

I haven't been to any of the Police killing protests yet (have you?) though I have read many of the articles. I'm still not seeing a clear message on how to proceed regarding:

1) What should be done about the killing of Andy Lopez by Deputy Erick Gelhaus? Is anybody else culpable? What should be done for the family?

And perhaps yet more importantly,

2) What can be done to prevent this from happening again?

[Victoria Street]

I think the manufacturer who made a toy to look like the real thing has some culpability.

It's interesting to me that we have ratings on movies because of violence, product safety recalls due to small parts that can be choking hazards, seat belt/helmet laws, etc. etc. etc. - and yet we give the nod to "toy" AK-47's and the like. God Bless America!!!

[occihoff]

I totally sympathize with your point! But, again, where are we going to find all these people who did not choose to get in the military, yet desire to enter a profession in which they must be prepared on a daily basis to order people around, dominate them physically, and deal with mean, scary, and desperate people who hate them and carry weapons?

I don't know how any one else feels but I think that since military people have the mindset of shooting first before taking that little moment, no military personnel should be allowed into law enforcement. I know a lot of cops have military backgrounds and probably have done an OK job but I am just thinking that citizens, ordinary citizens, should take police training and that might curb a lot of violence on either end. Police are usually trained to think before shooting; military people are not.

[Victoria Street]

I think the manufacturer who made a toy to look like the real thing has some culpability.

If it's legal to manufacture, then I can't see how the manufacturer could be found guilty. Especially since the ridiculous orange tip was "altered" (removed)...

[Valley Oak]

It will be interesting to see what the police report will say when their "investigation" is finished. If the conclusion is that Gelhaus gets off the hook because the toy looked like the real thing, then we need legislation prohibiting the manufacture and sale of toy guns that imitate too closely true firearms.

[Tinkerbell]

I agree this this message. A Military mindset is very different from a civilian mindset. Remember that the abu grave (sp) scandal was brought to light by an individual serving in the military who was trained as a civilian police officer in Maryland, I think.
They use stun guns to capture large bears that come too close to urban areas, and transport these bears to other places. Why can't this process be used with humans instead of deadly force?

I don't know how any one else feels but I think that since military people have the mindset of shooting first before taking that little moment, no military personnel should be allowed into law enforcement. I know a lot of cops have military backgrounds and probably have done an OK job but I am just thinking that citizens, ordinary citizens, should take police training and that might curb a lot of violence on either end. Police are usually trained to think before shooting; military people are not.

[arthunter]

The Peace & Justice Center posted this on FaceBook today ... I thought that it was worth sharing ...

"Our statement - so many things to think about, so much to do - a role for everyone:

“He shouldn't have been carrying that replica of an AK-47.” Sounds just like, “She shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt,” doesn't it? Blame the victim.

“He was just a child!” doesn't factor in that children now shoot and kill.

Maybe this is more complicated than either reaction.

Andy Lopez was growing up in a country that was sending him some very conflicting messages. This is a gun worshipping country. This is a country which believes strongly in violent solutions. The Santa Rosa Police Department encouraged small children to play with real weapons in a local park. The culture assigns god-like status to its law enforcement and military. Capitalism says that we can't infringe on the rights of a company to sell replica “toys.” Parents dress their babies in camo! How can we then turn to a young boy and tell him he's not supposed to be influenced by this culture? You really can't have it both ways.

And what is law enforcement supposed to do in the face of children who kill? I'd first suggest that we understand that a child with intent to kill (this was not Andy) is a child in despair. Our first instinct should be to save that child, not eliminate him! Our first instinct should be to create a world in which such despair never takes hold. Shoot to kill, ask questions later does not work. This has not always been law enforcement policy, but gradually we have become convinced that the safety of a deputy/police/soldier is more important than anything else. It hasn't always been that way. It is time for some creative problem-solving by law enforcement, working with lots of community input. Yes, it's more difficult than just picking up a gun and firing. No solution will be perfect. But really, the current policy is a disaster!

After WWII, the Defense Department conducted a study which concluded that 80% of soldiers refuse to kill, even at risk to themselves. Soldier training was changed so that now 80% will kill. Part of this change includes militarizing and desensitizing civilians – with predictable results, including dead innocent children.

As for Gelhaus, the deputy who killed Andy? Hold him responsible, all the while understanding that he suffers from a culturally-induced PTSD, not just the probable PTSD he suffers from serving in Iraq. And then hold our law enforcement accountable for their policies. And then hold our federal government responsible (the political party of the president is irrelevant here) for the ongoing militarization of local law enforcement. And hold our rich and corporate elite responsible for insisting upon a militarized mechanism for keeping us under control.

We've heard much about shared responsibility. His parents should have done this, Andy should have known that, the gun manufacturers shouldn't do this, but in the end, the only one with the power to kill was the deputy (with the blessings of top-down power behind him). The ultimate responsibility lies with the one with the power to take - or not take - a life.

We all have a role to play here. The cultural change that is required for a safer society - where safety is created by a more peaceful people demanding their own power, rather than by more law enforcement – will require all of us. It's long past time to get to work.

And we are grateful for the fact that the Lopez family has found such overwhelming support from the community and we are in awe of their ability to be so present within that community in their time of great sorrow."

[occihoff]

I think this focus on overly realistic toy guns is a bit of a red herring. It seems to me that the fundamental issues in this case are

(1) Did the boy drop his toy gun when the cops told him to? Did he just continue to hold it? Did he actually raise his toy gun and point it at them (this seems extremely unlikely)? How much time did the boy have to follow police orders and drop his toy gun before Gelhaus drilled him?

(2) Why did Gelhaus find it necessary to drill this boy with seven bullets, virtually assuring his death? Did Gelhaus have that little confidence in his marksmanship? If so, he should have either been required to undergo more practice, or--after so many years on the force with such inadequate skill--been fired or demoted to desk duty.

(3) In their daily rounds through the neighborhoods how often do the police see people walking around openly carrying rifles? Were the police unaware of the current fad for these realistic toy rifles?

In sum, it seems to me that there could only be one justification for a police person ever to shoot someone, not to mention empty their gun at them: that person is either pointing a gun at them or appears to be in the process of doing so.

It will be interesting to see what the police report will say when their "investigation" is finished. If the conclusion is that Gelhaus gets off the hook because the toy looked like the real thing, then we need legislation prohibiting the manufacture and sale of toy guns that imitate too closely true firearms.

[beshiva]

Notthing, absolutely nothing will change, and it can, and it will happen again....because the powers that be in this county, (i.e. Board of supervisors, city council) are too afraid, too intimidated, to bought off, to demand that the police and sheriff departments be overhauled when it comes to training!!! They should demand...that those in charge of those departments to "step down" because they are doing a horrible job protecting its citizens!! It's sick, disgusting, and shameful!!! The arrogant bastards!!! Killing our children!!! They need to be stopped by taking to the streets and peacefully demanding all of their resignations!! Because, no one is protecting us anymore!!!

i haven't been to any of the police killing protests yet (have you?) though i have read many of the articles. I'm still not seeing a clear message on how to proceed regarding:

1) what should be done about the killing of andy lopez by deputy erick gelhaus? Is anybody else culpable? What should be done for the family?

And perhaps yet more importantly,

2) what can be done to prevent this from happening again?

[Shandi]

Thank you for sharing this intelligent, insightful and realstic statement.

The Peace & Justice Center posted this on FaceBook today ... I thought that it was worth sharing ...

"Our statement - so many things to think about, so much to do - a role for everyone:

“He shouldn't have been carrying that replica of an AK-47.” Sounds just like,...

[Shandi]

I think that water balloons are quite different from stick swords or sling shots (a rock can seriously injury someone's eye). I remember my son at 8 yrs. old, getting hit in the head with a rock from a sling shot. He came in the house with blood streaming down his face. He had to have several stitches. I'm just glad it missed his eye.

I'm not condoning replica guns, but if they don't actually shoot projectiles, they may be safer than a sling shot. I grew up in the Roy Rogers, Annie Oakly, John Wayne era, and these gun slingers were our "heros". We are affected by what we see, and learn by direct and indirect messages.

I've never been attracted to actually throwing anything that might hurt another person. I do remember water balloon fights, and rare snow ball throwing, and even later in my 40's, while living in Hawaii, I engaged in throwing rotten star fruit, after being hit with, one while hiking with 3 other adults.

As a child, I lived in a violent home, although this didn't make me a violent person. Instead, it created a heightened state of awareness and fear because I never knew when it was coming. Although, I do recall an incident when I was 6 years old. My mother had let a strange man in the house. I sensed danger, and when he was pre-occupied, I grabbed a hammer, claw end out. I then threatened him with it, and fortunately he left. He could have easily overtaken me, but he wasn't armed, and may have realized that he'd have my mother on his back.

There were a few other times when I got into actual fist fights, as a means of protecting myself from taunting or phyical harm from other children my age. Otherwise I was a timid loner, with a strong survival instinct.

I left home at 12 because I could see that if I stayed my survival was at stake. I was placed in a large facility for kids from dysfunctional familes, that was run by nuns. It was there I learned that the discipline for not obeying rules was never physical. Instead, the nuns used the leverage of taking away privileges, which I ultimately used with my own sons.

I'm very thankful to have had their wise example, so I could learn another way. Many children never get this opportunity, and live under the shadow of violence in their home, and the glamorization in every type of media. My heart goes out to these children who become desensitized, and commit their own violence to humans and animals, then grow into violent adults.

I know this is just one aspect of this topic, and realize that violence as self defense is part of our survival mechanism. Sometimes it comes down to "me or them". We do rely on the police to defend us, and their training involves certain proceedures, as does the military. They are in a powerful position, with lethal weapons, along with a baseline mentality required by the job. They see the worst of humanity on a daily basis, and put their lives on the line. This has a mental and emotional effect, which creates tragic suffering.

Children need to be taught about these realities, and ways that certain behaviors can lead to loss of their lives. Sometimes this becomes apparent to children early on in some cultures, because they witness injury and death from a police weapon.

Awareness of any potential danger which can result from our behavior is key to our survival.

Yes, you're right ... even as a girl I enjoyed that sort of thing ... we used to make forts and throw things at our opponents from them ... great fun and injuries were minor ....

It's not the actions that I object to ... it's the providing of realistic replica guns and assault weapons .... this seems to send a message to the child that it's ok to use one of these things ... what happened to sling shots, and stick swords, and water balloons? ... ok, perhaps I'm dating myself but you get the idea ....

[tomcat]

Maybe because Bears are not carrying guns?

I don't know about you, but I would not want to attempt to get close enough to a person carrying a gun to use a stun gun on them. If the gun was real and you missed...you'd be dead, or they might shoot you before you got close enough.

If you would take that chance, maybe you should apply for the job.

Tom

I agree this this message. A Military mindset is very different from a civilian mindset. Remember that the abu grave (sp) scandal was brought to light by an individual serving in the military who was trained as a civilian police officer in Maryland, I think.
They use stun guns to capture large bears that come too close to urban areas, and transport these bears to other places. Why can't this process be used with humans instead of deadly force?

[Michelle Noe]

We should never have a military attitude about policing our community. This is a direction taken by the police department that should never have been allowed. By treating our community as a war zone, and hiring experts from the military to patrol our towns, we create more violence. This kind of policy looks really good to some elements of the get hard on crime folks, but the reality is that this is our home, and these are our children, even the ones in trouble deserve a police force that is an intelligent and integrated part of the community that it serves. These communities do not deserve an occupational force and it is just plain stupid to let this kind of thing continue.

Thank you for sharing this intelligent, insightful and realstic statement.

[Michelle Noe]

He does not have ptsd, he is a trained military person, conditioned to respond lethally, no matter what. He is a member of an occupying force.

The Peace & Justice Center posted this on FaceBook today ... ...

As for Gelhaus, the deputy who killed Andy? Hold him responsible, all the while understanding that he suffers from a culturally-induced PTSD, not just the probable PTSD he suffers from serving in Iraq. And then hold our law enforcement accountable for their policies. And then hold our federal government responsible (the political party of the president is irrelevant here) for the ongoing militarization of local law enforcement. And hold our rich and corporate elite responsible for insisting upon a militarized mechanism for keeping us under control.
...

[beshiva]

i wrote the following note to Pat Thurston on KGO after listening to her program this weekend...it sums up how i feel...but i have so many feelings and thoughts every day about Andy Lopez and his murder.....everyone has insightful stuff to share too...but are we not preaching to the choir??...the mindset of so many hard liners baffles me and i don't know how we can move their hearts.......

I was listening to the show about Andy Lopez…I could not call in…I am a mother too…I was driving home from work….too distraught to make a call…but for what it's worth…what happened to that poor boy was so WRONG on so many levels…

It's shocking, it's shameful….mostly, because I believe the police And the Sheriff's deputies in this county are so out of control….ill trained and they act as if they live in some damn war zone….I Absolutely believe that the cop who shot him should go to jail….

It was a mistake that NEVER should have happened….and it happened because of arrogance, and the inability to be brave and courageous in his job, instead he acted like he was coming up on some crazy situation…he was out of control…

Let's not forget that this happened at 3pm in the afternoon….REALLY!!

It's inexcusable, ruthless and this is one more example of the police not acting to protect us but rather keep us in fear….
I hope he is brought down….and NEVER gets to be a cop, EVER again….

He is nuts….and the police department knows it….the public knows it!! Let's not pretend any longer
I hope there are many many more demonstrations for Andy….let's not forget…it can and it WILL happen again…until this department is reigned in!!!


Sincerely,
Marni
Forestville

[arthunter]

Yes, you're right Shandi, .... we were never allowed to use rocks or large sticks in our arsenal as kids, so I didn't mean to suggest that type of toy ...

Perhaps this tragedy will prompt parents to carefully consider toys of aggression and the implications of those choices ... often, one never thinks of these things until something dramatic happens ... I don't think that fake guns should be on that list for obvious reasons ... beyond the danger of this particular situation, it just sends the wrong message ... yes, I know that we all grew up watching westerns and war movies, but look at the results of all of that ... endless wars and all of our money going to weaponry ... it's time to change the channel ... our very survival as a planet depends on it .... we can have healthy aggression and skill without weaponry and bloodshed ...

I'm sorry to hear of your turbulent background ... I grew up in a single mother household and survival issues overshadowed all other concerns ... I tried not to get hurt out in the streets because then my mother would have to deal with it and she had way too much to deal with as it was ... I saw no violence and I was completely sheltered ... this was good and bad ...

My uncle, the cop, came off like a real tough guy ... he always gave me a "look" to keep me in line ... when I was a teenager he'd follow me in his cop car to keep an eye on me ... when he died, my aunt told me about his first day on the job ... he came home crying and wanted to quit ... he was the first man to respond to a brutal car accident and it was his job to find a young girl's detached head ... sorry to be so graphic, but I did want to agree with your statement about cops seeing the worst of life ... this is very true ...

Still, there must be protocol involved ... you don't do any job without rehearsing ... carrying a lethal weapon carries a weight of responsibility .... and it does seem like our police force is changing and becoming more militarized ... we must not allow the concept of "shoot now and ask questions later" to become the status quo ... I wonder why this is happening to our police as there does not seem to be an increase in violent crime ...

I think that water balloons are quite different from stick swords or sling shots (a rock can seriously injury someone's eye). I remember my son at 8 yrs. old, getting hit in the head with a rock from a sling shot. He came in the house with blood streaming down his face. He had to have several stitches. I'm just glad it missed his eye.

I'm not condoning replica guns, ...

[franjoy]

We should never have a military attitude about policing our community. This is a direction taken by the police department that should never have been allowed. By treating our community as a war zone, and hiring experts from the military to patrol our towns, we create more violence. This kind of policy looks really good to some elements of the get hard on crime folks, but the reality is that this is our home, and these are our children, even the ones in trouble deserve a police force that is an intelligent and integrated part of the community that it serves. These communities do not deserve an occupational force and it is just plain stupid to let this kind of thing continue.

Well said!

[Shepherd]

In response to Barry's questions, I have been to many of the events surrounding the murder of Andy and will go again this afternoon for the People's Tribunal at Julliard Park from 1 to 5 p.m.

I consider this incident to be the most important local thing that has happened in Sonoma County since I moved here over 20 years ago. It gives us a chance to change the Standard Operating Procedures, or SOPs as we called them in the military. Because of the continuing non-violent response of the Latino community and their allies, we may finally have a chance to arrest, jail, and prosecute deputy Erick Gelhaus for taking what he learned in Iraq into a Latino working class neighborhood and kill yet another brown-skinned person, thus sending a message to other such militarized cops. Unless, of course, that he flees the country as the demand for justice grows. He and his military skills would certainly be welcomed in certain other countries.

I expect the investigating SR Police Dept. to whitewash this, as if they were fox guarding the chicken coops and continuing to treat some local people as "the enemy." The civil lawsuit in federal court may be a victory for the family, and its attorney says that the payment that the County has to make may be more than the $24 million he won, in trial, against the LA police for one shot--not 7 in Andy's case--that paralyzed but not kill that boy.

As to Barry's second question, let's celebrate Veterans Day today, since only some vets, like Gelhaus, come home and send a hail of bullets into a boy's body. We can over-haul the procedures and leadership of the Sheriff's Office, voting Sheriff Freitas out next year. There are many good things that good people can do to prevent this from happening again.

I haven't been to any of the Police killing protests yet (have you?) though I have read many of the articles. I'm still not seeing a clear message on how to proceed regarding:

1) What should be done about the killing of Andy Lopez by Deputy Erick Gelhaus? Is anybody else culpable? What should be done for the family?

And perhaps yet more importantly,

2) What can be done to prevent this from happening again?

[Conly]

I don't have any helpful comments for Q1. But for Q2 we can start by raising the IQ floor & ceiling for new cadets. ie: no more hiring dumb cops. Remove the "fear loophole".; Meaning someone actually has to shoot at them before they can draw their gun. We can't continue to allow officers to say "I was afraid" so I fired my weapon.

I haven't been to any of the Police killing protests yet (have you?) though I have read many of the articles. I'm still not seeing a clear message on how to proceed regarding:

1) What should be done about the killing of Andy Lopez by Deputy Erick Gelhaus? Is anybody else culpable? What should be done for the family?

And perhaps yet more importantly,

2) What can be done to prevent this from happening again?

[tomcat]

So, in your example, all criminals would get one free shot at a cop before the cop could draw his gun? That's crazy!
The criminal could walk up to the cop, point his gun, take careful aim, and blow the cop away with a perfectly aimed head shot. I could see all cops quitting their jobs the day THAT rule went into affect.
Then who ya gona call?
(surely you must realize this?)
Tom

I don't have any helpful comments for Q1. But for Q2 we can start by raising the IQ floor & ceiling for new cadets. ie: no more hiring dumb cops. Remove the "fear loophole".; Meaning someone actually has to shoot at them before they can draw their gun. We can't continue to allow officers to say "I was afraid" so I fired my weapon.

[Sara S]

Beautiful letter (Guest Commentary) to the Times and News, Shepherd! I finally got time to read the paper last night.....

Sara

[Conly]

Tom, I understand that there are extreme examples in both our statements. But the current MO of the police seems to be “shoot first and ask questions later”. The result of that is that children, the mentally/emotionally disabled and even incapacitated suspects are killed.

The police (theoretically) are here to protect and serve the public. It is part of their job to take the risk of their personal safety to protect US the people. Not kill US because they are “afraid” for their own safety.
Better psychological screening, better training in unarmed combat, higher IQ floor & ceiling for cadets;I could go on till my fingers bleed.

As to “who ya gona call”, certainly Not the police. They arrive after the fact. At 52yrs. I've been mugged once but I've been harassed by cops more times than I can count. I do not trust them. And I think it is a flaw in the Whole system that they never get prosecuted/convicted for wrongful death because they wear blue & a badge.
So I will stick to requiring Higher IQ's and not letting them get off with murder.
I don't want to get shot reaching for my wallet. How about you?

So, in your example, all criminals would get one free shot at a cop before the cop could draw his gun? That's crazy!
The criminal could walk up to the cop, point his gun, take careful aim, and blow the cop away with a perfectly aimed head shot. I could see all cops quitting their jobs the day THAT rule went into affect.
Then who ya gona call?
(surely you must realize this?)
Tom

[handy]

The police (theoretically) are here to protect and serve the public. It is part of their job to take the risk of their personal safety to protect US the people. Not kill US because they are “afraid” for their own safety.

Precisely. Thank you.

[podfish]

by the way, the last few weeks of the Bohemian have had really well-thought-out reader commentaries (I don't remember the newspaper jargon, but they're essentially editorials submitted by readers, not their staff). Sorry I'm too lazy to track down links...