Efren Returns! Now what about recall?

[Fillie]

Some of you seem to be using his addiction-behavior opportunistically to castigate him for the vineyard conversion debacle. Not seeing the connect here. It's like impeaching Roosevelt because he was in a wheelchair because you didn't like his politics. Addiction is not a moral issue, it is a disease that shreds the moral fiber of a person.

The heroic work of recovery is the taking responsibility for this moral decline. Who among us is perfect morally, medically, emotionally, spiritually? What is honorable is the clean up after the wake up. Yet intolerance of immoral behavior can be compassionately held to, or dealt out, but without the venom of judgment, the attitude of controlling punishment. That angry judgment cannot get close to matching the shame of the inner voice of any addict when they are clean.

It's just that shame and judgment don't work as change agents. Compassionate discipline, healthy guilt and guidance do. That is what the disease model provides. And that is what recovery provides too. In the recovery procedure, there is no indulgent babying of insensitive behavior caused by intoxication, just holding oneself to complete accountability from the point of abstinence on.

[sebastacat]

Thank you, Henry, for your oustanding post which puts this terrible situation with which we now find ourselves confronted in perfect perspective.

And thank you for passing on the news at the resignation of the San Diego mayor.

Yes, the people of Sonoma County must send a loud and unmistakably clear message to "Supervisor"
Carrillo that his reprehensible conduct will not be tolerated, whatever the outcome of any criminal-court proceeding may be.

That our southern neighbors had the guts, the grit and the tenacity to make their feelings heard and to drive
their mayor from office for his loathsome conduct is to be commended.

May some of their grit make its way up here so that we, too, may find the will to do the right thing

[Fillie]

That alcoholism impairs behavior and choices and performance, In the 70's and 80's, it was written in to insurance coverage and Employee Assistance Programs at most public and many large companies as policy to treat alcoholism, when they realized it was 1. caring, and 2. very economically expedient and beneficial to intervene with an alcoholic or addicted employee, provide a "last-chance agreement" for sobriety, pay for their treatment and their sick leave, send them to treatment, and give them another chance to keep their job. After treatment, and after the denial system is broken, an alcoholic/addict is then absolutely responsible to the same criteria as any employee. Before denial, because it is a medical disorder, we need to cut slack. and provide help. Otherwise, we continue to dehumanize our culture and lean farther toward uncaring, selfish, intolerant and fascist ideals. Right?

What bugs me (a lot) is the double standard by which Efren is being judged. If this were a county employee who had exhibited this type of conduct, they would have been summarily dismissed, in the same manner in which Efren himself dismissed Cathy Neville for her misconduct.

But now that Efren has displayed similar reprehensible conduct, he is claiming that he is an alcoholic and that he should be given another shot at the race.

Question: Would a rank-and-file county employee be given "another shot at the race" if he or she engaged in this type of behavior and claimed alcoholism as an excuse? Not only do I seriously doubt it, I don't even think the matter would merit any further discussion or consideration.

Unfortunately, I see some striking similarities between Efren's conduct and Ms. Neville's conduct:
Both engaged in "conduct unbecoming" to the County of Sonoma -- and both ran away.

[photolite]

This is the most informed and insightful post regarding alcoholism that I've seen on this or any other related wacco threads. The fact that our "consciousness community" seems so clueless regarding the conventional wisdom on this condition that was understood 30+ years ago is striking, if not a bit shameful.

That alcoholism impairs behavior and choices and performance, In the 70's and 80's, it was written in to insurance coverage and Employee Assistance Programs at most public and many large companies as policy to treat alcoholism, when they realized it was 1. caring, and 2. very economically expedient and beneficial to intervene with an alcoholic or addicted employee, provide a "last-chance agreement" for sobriety, pay for their treatment and their sick leave, send them to treatment, and give them another chance to keep their job. After treatment, and after the denial system is broken, an alcoholic/addict is then absolutely responsible to the same criteria as any employee. Before denial, because it is a medical disorder, we need to cut slack. and provide help. Otherwise, we continue to dehumanize our culture and lean farther toward uncaring, selfish, intolerant and fascist ideals. Right?

[sebastacat]

Fillie:

Thank you for your informative post.

But I would respectfully ask you to please re-read paragraph 3 of my post.

Also, now that Efren has exhibited similar behavior, should the county consider re-opening Cathy Neville's case, since she was dismissed for some of the same reasons?

(Note: I did not and still do not condone Ms. Neville's conduct which she displayed during her drunk-driving arrest by running away.)

[Ice Queen]

OK, so you think you know all there is to know about alcoholism. How well do you know the subject of these attacks and how it affects him? Actually I question your authoritative stance because in the end you have ONE VOTE just like the rest of us. Let's stop trying this man on-line. Vote!

Barry, my lack of empathy for Efren comes from the very personal truth that I spent two decades as a functioning binge drinker, what used to be called a hard drinker, a man who could hold his alcohol. I know the game as well as anyone. ...

[navgal]

Supervisor Carrillo has a much more serious problem than even that posed by alcoholism.

[tomcat]

Those who care about this subject REALLY CARE and post a lot and try to convince others to care as well... But only 23 people on this Board cared enough to even cast a vote in this poll. Good luck with the re-call.

Tom

[riverosprey]

Hi all WaccoBB brothers and sisters :)

I agree with Henry's assessment, not necessarily for the same reasoning :0). I think Efren can quit drinking and improve on the great representation he has provided to the Fifth District for the last five years; as Henry notes any recall would be a very futile negative process that many if not most of us in the District would become the lesser for it.

William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)

THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.


Barry, SaraS, Edward, Andy, Shephard, Colleen, Dixon and I had a very nice gathering at Hopmonk yesterday for a beer and some great munchies...along with some very civil discourse on the future of mankind.

We should start a monthly WaccoBB Salon at Hopmonk. (Sorry you couldn't make this one Henry :).

Peace to All and thank all those posting for your passion and efforts to improve our community.

L

Tom Lynch

I'll second Tom's astute appraisal. I've had conversations with various people and a couple groups discussing recall initiatives. To a man, those I've spoken with are motivated by narcissism more than concern for the 5th District or the county. To agree (imagine this) with those labeling the effort of some (they'd include myself) as a feeding frenzy, my take is that a majority of the anti-Efren crowd experience their outrage as a personal affront and not a communal concern. Again in agreement with Tom, for this reason I don't see a recall succeeding unless organized and pursued by a union.

And do we really want to set this type of precedent? It's already acknowledged that the unions are capable of seating a politician. Are we wise to cede the entirety of our democratic privilege to a group of 5 individuals in committee by encouraging them to unseat the same. I'd suggest we leave that genie in the bottle, and for a very long time.

Most really don't care Tom. This explains why we end in being saddled with the Carrillos, the Browns, the Smiths and the Reillys. We vote ourselves their enrichment and at our expense. What course of action do you think they're going to take? They've nothing to lose and everything to gain. County Supervisor is the best job any of them will ever have and they get to set their own pay package. They'd be fools not to take advantage of the situation. We're fools for offering them the opportunity.

[Valley Oak]

I posted a thread on last night's enjoyable get together in the "Community" section of Wacco:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showt...579#post170579

Thank you to everyone who was there; fun was had by all.

Edward

Hi all WaccoBB brothers and sisters :)

...Barry, SaraS, Edward, Andy, Shephard, Colleen, Dixon and I had a very nice gathering at Hopmonk yesterday for a beer and some great munchies...along with some very civil discourse on the future of mankind.

We should start a monthly WaccoBB Salon at Hopmonk. (Sorry you couldn't make this one Henry :).

Peace to All and thank all those posting for your passion and efforts to improve our community.

L

Tom Lynch

[Damien]

Yes

[danargraves]

I am amazed that yet again the overt sexual harassment issue is being ignored by diverting attention to an alcoholic's behavior instead of despicable behavior towards women. He should be removed immediately for that reason alone until he has gone through a lot of the awakening of his heart processes and that is done over a long period of time not just a short time in a rehab clinic.

That being said he should have been removed long ago for his vote on the Dutra asphalt plant due to his own personal views with industry backing his political career. It was not supporting the public's opinion. He said industrial plants were not that bad well I differ. I was raised in the "flats" of Cleveland and I have seen the results of long term contamination which included an asphalt plant among the steel mills.

[handy]

I agree. He misrepresented himself to us. He attained his position through fraud.
His behavior is not worthy of his constituents.
While he's getting himself straightened out, he is precisely not representing us.
Let him go fix himself on his own dime and his own time.
After, and ONLY after, we, his constituents, have observed an actual change in his behavior over time, may he have the opportunity to attempt to convince us again of his value and or trustworthiness.
In the mean time, we, each and every one of us, have better things to do with our lives than to get caught up in some other fool's personal soap opera/reality show.

Just my .00015 BtC worth...

I am amazed that yet again the overt sexual harassment issue is being ignored by diverting attention to an alcoholic's behavior instead of despicable behavior towards women. He should be removed immediately for that reason alone until he has gone through a lot of the awakening of his heart processes and that is done over a long period of time not just a short time in a rehab clinic.

[Alex]

I am amazed that yet again the overt sexual harassment issue is being ignored by diverting attention to an alcoholic's behavior instead of despicable behavior......

Thank you very much for highlighting this aspect, it's exactly the even bigger elephant in the room than alcoholism being ignored by supporters, and historically implies something much, much bigger than despicable.....

Our superintendent
TRIED__TO__BREAK__INTO__ A__WOMAN'S__BEDROOM__AT__3:40AM__IN__HIS__UNDERWEAR.

This is a fact with no possible excusable excuse. I am with approx. 95% of PD posters that we already know enough and deserve much better and will be complacent idiots shooting ourselves in the foot if we don't admit exactly what the ramifications of this behavior really represents.

Our forum, however, is full of people willing to ignore, minimize and excuse this behavior, actually suggesting we have some moral responsibility to rehabilitate him including ignoring all psychological data of how long it typically takes and that sexual predation really never gets ‘cured’. I'm sure glad we're not paying all the predatory alcoholics in Sonoma county $12k/mo while they rehab.

We also have people here going so far as proposing movie script level excuses that we should make sure aren't his good reason before taking any action, like he was set up. He was set up to lose his free will?? Wow. Then his free will can be manipulated while sitting at his superintendent’s seat making decisions too.

Here’s my fantasy movie script:
After years of hidden alcoholism, one night a Santa Rosa Superintendent could no longer suppress the sexual predator part of his nature and exhibited extremely dangerous, threatening behavior far more extreme and revealing than any of the 1000's of other garden variety alcoholics in any the 300 weekly Sonoma County AA meetings ever cross the line into.

When his computer was confiscated as is standard procedure in all cases involving sexual threat, Carrillo was immediately fired when sick and illicit predatory material was discovered, which is the case 100% of the time among sexual predators/deviants. The Santa Rosa citizens hope that finally this accurate and just indictment and conviction of Efren Carrillo will set a new standard of elected officials being held just as accountable as any street person for the same behavior and not get a free pass from cohorts, law enforcement insiders or corporate money paying any decision makers off.

The point: We already know he was not given a drug/alcohol test, and if his computer was not confiscated too it's a big gigantic free pass already.. Would this have been the case with any average Joe? NO.

[sebastacat]

Thank you so much, Alexia, for your spot-on post.

I will have more to say in the coming days about this matter.

But for now, I will say this: I just hope and pray that the victim has not yet and does not decide to in the future pay
WACCO a visit, for I think she is going to feel a great sense of sadness, sickness and depression when she sees the many, many lame excuses which have been offered up by many posters on this forum in an effort to explain and spin away Efren's inexcusable behavior.

Thankfully, several people like you, me and others have not forgotten the one person in this entire mess who was most profoundly affected and, I'm sure, continues to be affected by Efren's conduct and actions on July 13th:

THE VICTIM.

To those of you who continue down the yellow brick road of excuse-making, you, of course, are free to continue to do so. But in Sebastacat's opinion, you are continuing to enable him in the commitment of future reprehensible conduct and poor decision-making. And that's exactly why he now finds himself embroiled in this situation and, for the first time in his life, facing the prospect of being charged with a felony. (Second if you count the initial felonious assault arrest stemming from the San Diego incident.)

And I will say it once again: You are doing Efren no favors by continuing to do so.

Perhaps it's time for the enabling to stop and for honest words to be spoken.

[Barry]

I have to take issue with:

the one person in this entire mess who was most profoundly affected and, I'm sure, continues to be affected by Efren's conduct and actions on July 13th:

THE VICTIM.

Surely she has every right to be safe in her home and not be subjected to an intrusion of any kind, and no doubt it was very scary and traumatic, and is most probably is still being affected by the event and certainly by all the media and public interest and upcoming court date.

However, IMO, Efren has been affected yet more. I have no doubt that he been "most profoundly affected" by his actions both up until now (media coverage, shame, rehab, moving, future in doubt, etc) and will continue to be for quite some time. And he deserves it!

To those of you who continue down the yellow brick road of excuse-making, you, of course, are free to continue to do so. But in Sebastacat's opinion, you are continuing to enable him in the commitment of future reprehensible conduct and poor decision-making.

There's no excuse to be made. There's an illness with possible treatment. I agree that Efren's future ability and trustworthiness is in doubt, but it's quite possible he will have received his huge wake-up call and take appropriate action.

I'd still like to see him resign if no other reason that I think this scandal will limit his effectiveness and quash the ugly debate about whether he should continue to serve, not to mention providing a better situation for his recovery. If he continues to serve his policy critics will be yet fiercer (as we have seen here).

Should he not resign, I do not think a recall attempt should be made for the simple reason that it won't succeed while being expensive and ugly, and our efforts are best placed elsewhere.

Should he stay in office I would support a recall if he returns to drinking, even casually, or has any other lapse in judgment. He'll face the voters again in 3 years who can decide if he's worthy of continued public service, based on his record after this unfortunate event.

My hope is that he will plead guilty to the misdemeanor of prowling and that the felony burglary charges be dropped (he didn't "enter") so that he, the victim and the county can move forward.

[sebastacat]

I disagree.

[sebastacat]

(edited) Sebastacat posted a quote from a legal site regarding what is considered "entering". I have move his post along with my comments to the basis of a new thread, Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

We can continue to use this thread to discuss the recall question.

Barry

[Valley Oak]

It should be interesting to see if Efren's tearing the window screen open (but not sticking his hand through the window) will actually count as burglary.

If Carrillo had only run around in the middle of the night, drunk or/and on other drugs, almost completely naked, as if he were a werewolf, then I would find this scandal substantially less egregious.

But Carrillo's conduct strongly implies the actions of a rapist trying to break into a single woman's home, where she lives alone; this is by far the most disturbing part and it is the most important reason Carrillo should resign.

If the local unions go ahead with a recall effort (to begin in a couple of weeks on September 15), then I will join such an effort. I will physically go down to their HQ and ask what I can do to get this individual out of office.

If so, then I beseech the rest of this community to join me in that effort.

Thank you,

Edward

From the Web site of the Law Offices of Hinkle, Jachimowicz, Pointer & Emanuel comes the followinginformation with respect to the definition of the crime of "Burglary":...

[dominus]

However, IMO, Efren has been affected yet more. I have no doubt that he been "most profoundly affected" by his actions both up until now (media coverage, shame, rehab, moving, future in doubt, etc) and will continue to be for quite some time. And he deserves it!

It certainly would appear that Efren has been impacted more but does anyone really know? Many women feel vulnerable for their physical safety and Efren must have certainly activated that concern when the victim phoned the police twice. So while he stands to lose a great deal, the female victim has lost a sense of feeling safe. A personal, inner experience of safety vs. reputation and livelihood. I think the experience of safety might be harder to get back.

[sebastacat]

With regard to Post Number 48, Sebastacat needs to make one thing very clear:

The legal site to which I referred did NOT call into question whether Efren entered, as the post seems to suggest.
The site merely discusses and explains the elements of the crime of "burglary."

That site to which I made reference has not taken nor has it espoused ANY position on the matter of Efren's charges.

[Thanks for the correction, Sebastacat. I have edited my post accordingly. -Barry]

[Dixon]

...Carrillo was immediately fired when sick and illicit predatory material was discovered, which is the case 100% of the time among sexual predators/deviants.

This connection of "sick and illicit predatory material" to sexual predation is news to me. I'm not even sure what you mean by the term "sick and illicit predatory material". Could you clarify, please?

[meherc]

I completely disagree. I think most companies, particularly the county, send their employees to rehab regularly. Maybe you are seeing a nice happy world where people don't get treated unfairly, cops don't lie, alcoholism is not a disease.You sound just like the cops at the county jail who don't "believe" in mental illness and think sick people are trying to just get off. Or where honest people don't get arrested for retribution, a sarcastic remark or a look the cops interpret as nasty. There is an article in Slate about how many people are arrested on bogus misdemeanor charges and just plead no contest because they don't want to spend the time to fight it. Aren' people in our system supposed to be assumed innocent until proven guilty. Doesn't sound like that's what's happening around here.

And by the way, if a county employee exhibited this behavior, no one would give a damn. He wouldn't be in the paper and vilified so which double standard are we talking about?

What bugs me (a lot) is the double standard by which Efren is being judged. If this were a county employee who had exhibited this type of conduct, they would have been summarily dismissed, in the same manner in which Efren himself dismissed Cathy Neville for her misconduct.

But now that Efren has displayed similar reprehensible conduct, he is claiming that he is an alcoholic and that he should be given another shot at the race.

Question: Would a rank-and-file county employee be given "another shot at the race" if he or she engaged in this type of behavior and claimed alcoholism as an excuse? Not only do I seriously doubt it, I don't even think the matter would merit any further discussion or consideration.

Unfortunately, I see some striking similarities between Efren's conduct and Ms. Neville's conduct:
Both engaged in "conduct unbecoming" to the County of Sonoma -- and both ran away.

[sebastacat]

"Unfortunately, if a county employee exhibited similar behavior, no one would give a damn"????

Where have you been, Meherc? Are you not aware of what happed to Ms. Cathy Neville a few years back and how Mr. Carrillo cited the circumstances surrounding her drunk driving and the fact that she ran away as reasons for terminating her in the formal termination letter that he signed?

Please, get your facts straight before attacking me in the future.

And yes, Ms. Neville was a county employee, and I did NOT codone her conduct.

And, yes, I did -- and do -- give a damn.

---

[I couldn't find any news sources that reported Cathy Neville and drunk driving.
I did find this account of her being fired.

Barry]

[Alex]

This connection of "sick and illicit predatory material" to sexual predation is news to me. I'm not even sure what you mean by the term "sick and illicit predatory material". Could you clarify, please?

I was couching words. I have personal experience having my eyes opened to how unaware I was about predators and law enforcement's perspective on what is a surefire indication of what to them. One, that when finding or suspecting a crime of a sexual nature they have great interest in confiscating the computer. Two, it's because 100% of the time they find perverse, creepy and frequently scummy and/or illegal underage crap on the computers of anyone having committed a sexual crime. Three, that a predator is frequently your educated, well dressed, well-spoken next door neighbor who you wouldn't want to be representing your community interests and well-being if you could see the very commonly found, what I termed 'illicit and predatory material' on his computer.

Basically, when it finally bursts the seams like in Efren's case, it's a huge red flag indicator that there's a lot more going on for a long time before the obsessions could no longer be contained.

[sebastacat]

Barry: Thanks for providing the info above.

Ms. Neville's drunk-driving arrest caused quite a stir at the time that it occurred.
I'm surprised that the Press Democrat does not have a story in their archives about it, as
they reported on it extensively.

There are some links to the letter that Efren Carrillo, as Chairman of the Board of the Sonoma County Supervisors at the time of her arrest, wrote to her in the "Comments" section of the latest story regarding Efren's arrest.

When I have a bit more time, I'll try to find some more info for you. But thanks for your efforts in this respect thus far.

Sebastacat

[Barry]

Efren was charged with the misdemeanor of "peeking" today. I have started a new thread called "Efren charged with "misdemeanor peeking" in General Community to discuss this. I am closing this thread.