Gun Control Now!

[Valley Oak]

BTW, I have a Constitutional right to own an atomic bomb! The 2nd Amendment says so.

(Pssst, where is the local hardware store in Santa Rosa where I can buy plutonium?)

[Conly]

A gun without bullets is just a hunk of metal. You can side step all the gun lobbies by NOT manufacturing "live ammunition".. Regulate the components of gunpowder. (so no home made ammo). Tax the manufacture of empty cartridges. Tax brass. There are many ways to stop "gun violence".
Just make Guns and ALL of the accessories prohibitively expensive.
Stop wining. Take action.

[meherc]

The long and hard fight for gun control is worth the struggle. There are many who are against gun control despite the 20 murdered children in Connecticut.

People against gun control should travel to Connecticut and spend Christmas Day with the families of those murdered children and explain to them, face to face, why they prefer that guns continue to be abundantly available to any nut-case so that this tragedy can be repeated indefinitely. Americans who argue against gun control prefer to see more murdered children than to provide a solution. Shame on them. They are being astonishingly ignorant, arrogant, insensitive, and ideologically deluded beyond belief.

You can spend your christmas with me. It really pisses me off when all these newscasters say "Why did he do it, was it an argument with his mother that set him off/" NO, it was because he was sick, mentally ill. There was no "reason" except a crazy one in his own head. My son had a psychotic break last year and stabbed his father 52 times, to death obviously. He thought he was fulfilling an ancient rite that was his destiny to kill the one who was controlling the evil in the world. He did not know it was his loving dad. so if you want to spend time with one of the kindergarten families in CT, you can come and see me. I'm a lot closer and my life has been absolutely destroyed. I lost everything. I am heartily in favor of gun control but more concerned with helping the mentally ill, and reforming the archaic, absolutely horrible jail system. I couldn't believe they would throw a sick person, naked, into an empty cement "safe" room. More like the Spanish Inquisition.

[Valley Oak]

The following article was published by The New York Times on January 2, 2013:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/03/u...hicago.html?hp

January 2, 2013
A Soaring Homicide Rate, a Divide in Chicago
By MONICA DAVEY

CHICAGO — This city’s 471st homicide of 2012 happened in the middle of the day, in the middle of a crowd, on the steps of the church where the victim of homicide 463 was being eulogized. Sherman Miller, who was 21, collapsed amid gunfire not far from the idling hearse that was there to carry away James Holman, 32, shot to death a week earlier.

The funeral shooting at St. Columbanus Catholic Church on the South Side left neighbors fretting that no place, not even a church, felt safe any longer. “It’s become the Wild Wild West,” said Charles Childs Jr., who had watched from across the street as mourners screamed and scattered.

The shooting, on Nov. 26, was one more jarring reminder of just how common killings seem to have grown on the streets of Chicago, the nation’s third-largest city, where 506 homicides were reported in 2012, a 16 percent increase over the year before, even as the number of killings remained relatively steady or dropped in some cities, including New York.

But the overall rise in killings here blurs another truth: the homicides, most of which the authorities described as gang-against-gang shootings, have not been spread evenly across this city. Instead, they have mostly taken place in neighborhoods west and south of Chicago’s gleaming downtown towers.

Already, 2013 began with three gun homicides on New Year’s Day, two of them on the South Side. Like other cities, Chicago has long been a segregated place, richer and whiter on the North Side, and the city’s troubling increase in killings has accentuated a longstanding divide.

“It’s two different Chicagos,” said the Rev. Corey B. Brooks Sr., the pastor of New Beginnings Church on the South Side, who had led the funeral service for Mr. Holman the day shots rang out, then found himself leading Mr. Miller’s funeral service a week later. The authorities here have described both shootings as gang related. “If something like that had happened at the big cathedral in downtown Chicago or up north at a predominantly white church, it would still be on the news right now, it would be such a major thing going on.”

More than 80 percent of the city’s homicides took place last year in only about half of Chicago’s 23 police districts, largely on the city’s South and West Sides. The police district that includes parts of the business district downtown reported no killings at all. And while at least one police district on the city’s northern edge saw a significant increase in the rate of killings, the total number there still was dwarfed by deaths in districts on the other sides of town, and particularly in certain neighborhoods.

Along the streets downtown and in neighborhoods on the North Side not far from Lake Michigan, some residents acknowledged that they had heard about a rise in the city’s homicide rate, but said it had not affected their own sense of safety. “This area is a bit of a Garden of Eden,” said Gwen Sylvain, as she walked dogs along a residential street not far from the Loop.

Others said they rarely had reason to go to the Chicago’s South or West Sides, only a few miles away, and some longtime residents said they had never once ventured to such neighborhoods. Police business on the North Side rarely seems to rise beyond an overly enthusiastic Cubs fan or a parking quibble, said Kyong Lee, who said that in the past he had, without consequence, forgotten to lock up his family’s shoe repair business.

In Back of the Yards, a South Side neighborhood near the city’s old meatpacking district, the tenor was far different. Mothers spoke of keeping their children inside from the moment school ended, and businessmen of decisions to lock the front doors of their shops during business hours. “I don’t go out at night,” said Jesse Martinez, who recalled the gun pressed to his head as he was robbed a few years ago inside the hat and boot store he has run for 32 years.

Over all, crime in Chicago dropped 9 percent in 2012 from the year before in what city officials say was the largest decrease in 30 years. Among crimes that saw dips last year: rape, robbery and car theft. With the city’s longtime gangs splintering into factions and increasing problems with retaliatory violence, homicides rose suddenly in the first three months of the year — running some 60 percent ahead of the year earlier — creating a pace that slowed significantly as the year went on.

City officials attributed the improvement to a broad anti-gang strategy that includes an elaborate police audit of gang members, removal of vacant buildings and efforts to involve neighbors. Some have called for increased gun control legislation; of 7,000 guns recovered by the Chicago police in recent months, handguns are most common, but 300 were assault weapons.

“A child shot is a child of the City of Chicago,” Mayor Rahm Emanuel, who lives on the North Side, said in an interview in which he addressed the long-held divisions in a city known for its endless array of distinct neighborhoods on the North, South and West Sides. “Don’t anybody think that it’s ‘over there,’ ” the mayor said. “It’s a tear on this city.”

No arrests have been made in the deaths of Mr. Holman or Mr. Miller, who died on the steps of the church that Al Capone’s mother once attended regularly and where Barack Obama distributed food to the needy just after he was elected president in 2008. The authorities say three guns were believed to be present when Mr. Miller died. The police say Mr. Miller was carrying a gun. And bullet casings from two other weapons were found on the steps.

At Mr. Miller’s funeral in December, a large contingent of Chicago police officers waited outside.

“It’s gotten to the point, unfortunately, where something as significant as a funeral is subject to gang violence, and I can’t even believe that we’re having this conversation,” Garry McCarthy, the police superintendent here, said in an interview. “I’m not willing to gamble that maybe they’re not going to bring their guns this time.”

Inside that funeral, at another church on the city’s South Side, Mr. Brooks stood near Mr. Miller’s coffin, recalling what had happened at the last funeral. “Ever since then,” Mr. Brooks told Mr. Miller’s mother, who sat before him, “my heart has been so torn.”

As friends of the deceased stepped past his framed photograph to stand at a microphone, Mr. Brooks called for peace in the church, read out his own cellphone number (in case, he said, anyone needed it), and stopped one young man from launching into a rap, for fear, Mr. Brooks said later, of what new trouble that might stir.

In a corner of the church, a friend of Mr. Miller revealed text messages he had sent to her during Mr. Holman’s funeral, minutes before he was shot: “dis preacher like he talkin straight to me,” one of the messages read. “He talkin bout hurts and pain. I cant run from the pain cause its gone hurt me worse if I’m by myself because I gotta think about everything.” In tears, she recalled how she had replied to the texts with questions, but Mr. Miller never responded.

[Valley Oak]

Conrad, I fear that "Hotspring" envisions a "liberal militia" ready to take on and defeat the "conservative militia." This is one of the most delusional attitudes that I have EVER encountered. Perhaps HoTsPrInG is thinking about a 2nd Civil War? Between the States? Door to door?

This is entertaining, if not disturbing rhetoric. Perhaps putting it in print would make a bestseller for people with overactive neuroses, paranoia, and imagination.

I'm beginning to see a stronger argument now with providing better mental healthcare. The song by the Cranberries with their song, "Zombie," about the conflict in Northern Ireland is relevant:

"...We must be mistaken
It's the same old thing since 1916
In your head in your head
Their still fighting..."

The hallucinations of needing a gargantuan arsenal of weaponry in civilians' hands is in the minds of Americans, not reality. This is not 1776; it is 2012 and people are dying, children are dying, and it HAS TO STOP!!!

Tragically, millions of Americans make the same argument that Timothy McVeigh did when he blew up the "enemy" Federal building in Oklahoma. And it's all in their heads. Universal healthcare is looong overdue.

Edward

>>>I am concerned with the already existing multitudes of the so-called assault weapons “guns” and ammo for them and the time it will reasonably take to phase them out. ...
>>>Most people in the US that have stockpiled that type of weaponry are not “progressives”, they are staunch,, hard core, right wing zealot types some of who are as adamant about their “riotousness” as the Taliban is but only with a different religion, however they are very dangerous and need to be watched very closely, they can disrupt things in all different directions.
>>>They can use the NRA and such to make real trouble in the law making and lobby so as to render others (“people”) they don't like into an unarmed state...
>>>I would rather have gun laws remain as they are now rather than have that imbalance of fire-power.

Please clarify. I just don't follow your logic.

Are you saying that because there's a heavy preponderance of armed reactionary zealots, we should keep a status quo that allows a potentially exponential growth in the numbers of armed reactionary zealots?

I suppose that if you feel you need to arm yourself against death squads, you should do it sooner rather than later. Or if you feel that the police would turn a blind eye rather than be gunned down by automatic fire.

I'm not unconcerned by those things myself. But I don't see that as a valid argument for doing nothing besides, perhaps, meditating on the enlightenment of humankind.

That said, where I do see your argument as relevant is in a legislative danger: passage of laws that grandfather in the ownership of assault weapons. That would, at the very least (as it did before), create a huge swell in both inventory and sales prior to the ban going into effect, and also lock in the status quo. If they're banned, they should be banned, period, or for collectors, kept only if they're permanently disabled. But the danger of that is just as great whether or not we ruffle the feathers of reactionaries: their feathers have been ruffled into war bonnets for a long, long time.

Peace & joy--
Conrad

[Valley Oak]

Republican Peter King: 'I Really Don't Know Why People Need Assault Weapons'

[handy]

I can already hear Ed's shrill scream... "Hammer And Club Control NOW!"

https://www.breitbart.com/Big-Govern...+Government%29

by AWR Hawkins 3 Jan 2013, 6:13 AM PDT

According to the FBI annual crime statistics, the number of murders committed annually with hammers and clubs far outnumbers the number of murders committed with a rifle.

This is an interesting fact, particularly amid the Democrats' feverish push to ban many different rifles, ostensibly to keep us safe of course.
However, it appears the zeal of Sens. like Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Joe Manchin (D-WV) is misdirected. For in looking at the FBI numbers from 2005 to 2011, the number of murders by hammers and clubs consistently exceeds the number of murders committed with a rifle.
Think about it: In 2005, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 445, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 605. In 2006, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 438, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 618.
And so the list goes, with the actual numbers changing somewhat from year to year, yet the fact that more people are killed with blunt objects each year remains constant.
For example, in 2011, there was 323 murders committed with a rifle but 496 murders committed with hammers and clubs.
While the FBI makes is clear that some of the "murder by rifle" numbers could be adjusted up slightly, when you take into account murders with non-categorized types of guns, it does not change the fact that their annual reports consistently show more lives are taken each year with these blunt objects than are taken with Feinstein's dreaded rifle.
Another interesting fact: According to the FBI, nearly twice as many people are killed by hands and fists each year than are killed by murderers who use rifles.
The bottom line: A rifle ban is as illogical as it is unconstitutional. We face far greater danger from individuals armed with carpenters' tools and a caveman's stick.
And it seems fairly obvious that if more people had a gun, less people would be inclined to try to hit them in the head with a hammer.

[Valley Oak]

Sociopath Timothy McVeigh also loved guns and bombs and hated the "Socialist" Federal Government.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

[Valley Oak]

There are many people against gun control:

Right Wing, Anti-Government Militias On The Rise!

[Hotspring 44]

Conrad, I fear that "Hotspring" envisions a "liberal militia" ready to take on and defeat the "conservative militia." This is one of the most delusional attitudes that I have EVER encountered. Perhaps HoTsPrInG is thinking about a 2nd Civil War? Between the States? Door to door?

This is entertaining, if not disturbing rhetoric. Perhaps putting it in print would make a bestseller for people with overactive neuroses, paranoia, and imagination.

I'm beginning to see a stronger argument now with providing better mental healthcare. The song by the Cranberries with their song, "Zombie," about the conflict in Northern Ireland is relevant:

"...We must be mistaken
It's the same old thing since 1916
In your head in your head
Their still fighting..."

The hallucinations of needing a gargantuan arsenal of weaponry in civilians' hands is in the minds of Americans, not reality. This is not 1776; it is 2012 and people are dying, children are dying, and it HAS TO STOP!!!

Tragically, millions of Americans make the same argument that Timothy McVeigh did when he blew up the "enemy" Federal building in Oklahoma. And it's all in their heads. Universal healthcare is looong overdue.

Edward

Edward, you are incorrect about me (again). I think you are the most delusional one in this thread; to the point of paranoia it seems.
You are so incorrect about me that it is if you are making something up about me.
Instead of having a respectful form of dialog (in this thread in general) you try to make me out to be something I clearly am not.

I hope you don't have any guns.

[Hotspring 44]

If you remember or not I don't know but Timothy McVeigh's weapon of choice was high-powered explosives, not an assault rifle.

Edward, you have been very consistent at the

Sociopath Timothy McVeigh also loved guns and bombs and hated the "Socialist" Federal Government.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

[Hotspring 44]

I will be more specific.
Edward, in my assessment you have consistently resorted to using the Ad Hominem Attack tactic,specifically: the "Guilt by association" form when confronted with any real life issues (second amendment for one) and other things that have precedent in law when I brought it up. You doing that it is not conducive to my feeling willing to have any further debate with you on this topic.

You have directed that towards me personally on this thread more than others. I don't know why but I would like it to stop if you can. If you either can't or won't, I will put you on my ignore list at some point.
FWIW, I have never as of yet put anyone on that list.

Also, FYI to all on this thread, I will be off-line for a few days, so don't assume I am being evasive or whatever. I will be around eventually.

Edward, you are incorrect about me (again). I think you are the most delusional one in this thread; to the point of paranoia it seems.
You are so incorrect about me that it is if you are making something up about me.
Instead of having a respectful form of dialog (in this thread in general) you try to make me out to be something I clearly am not.

I hope you don't have any guns.

[sharingwisdom]

Who's a sociopath? It's interesting that some people are unable to see the repeating, similar patterns of so-called "terrorism" action from Oklahoma city, to the '93 World Trade center, to the 911 and to these Colorado shootings as our rights are being usurped. This is not about right vs left, republicans vs democrats. This is about stopping further action of the unconstitutional Patriot act.

Ever hear of Operation Northwoods (https://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHAR...orthwoods.html) The strategies have been set in place for quite awhile. Mike Rupert, former DEA agent (some of you may remember him in Sebastopol in November of '01 right after the 911) discusses from an article at that time that there is evidence that the 1995 Murrah building bombing was a government operation planned from the start to look lie an "Iraqi terrorist" strike.

There were many players in this charade that were covered-up. German military intelligence operative Lt. Andreas Strassmeir was identified as a strong suspect in the 1995 Oklahoma City (Murrah Federal Building) bombing, but was given diplomatic immunity, never questioned by the FBI despite considerable evidence of his involvement, and was amazingly whisked out of the country back to Germany. Strassmeir's grandfather was a co-founder of the Nazi Party. His father, Gunter Strassmeir, was Helmut Kohl's Secretatry of State, had been high in the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND; the German CIA), and was a co-architect of German reunification along with George Bush senior. And there is so much more.

Oklahoma bombing was an inside job, Timothy McVeigh was a CIA patsy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWpwO7eQCsk

OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING Forerunner To 9-11 "A False Flag Conspiracy"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=4WH3IpmJ34U

Sociopath Timothy McVeigh also loved guns and bombs and hated the "Socialist" Federal Government.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

[Valley Oak]

My apologies.

Edward

PS: I don't own a gun. Never have, never will. No need.

I will be more specific.
Edward, in my assessment you have consistently resorted to using the Ad Hominem Attack tactic,specifically: the "Guilt by association" form when confronted with any real life issues (second amendment for one) and other things that have precedent in law when I brought it up. You doing that it is not conducive to my feeling willing to have any further debate with you on this topic.

You have directed that towards me personally on this thread more than others. I don't know why but I would like it to stop if you can. If you either can't or won't, I will put you on my ignore list at some point.
FWIW, I have never as of yet put anyone on that list.

Also, FYI to all on this thread, I will be off-line for a few days, so don't assume I am being evasive or whatever. I will be around eventually.

[Shandi]

Edward, I'm glad to see a public apology. Making accusations against people who don't agree with you, as you've done with HotSpring is a form of "violence" as I'm sure the supporters of non-violent communication would agree. And it doesn't do much to get the pro gun community to even want to read what you have to say. I'm kind of surprised that Barry didn't step in to remind you about the Wacco guidelines. But he may have been ready to....

My apologies.

Edward

PS: I don't own a gun. Never have, never will. No need.

[Valley Oak]

I did let my emotions get the best of me and for that I apologize not only to Hotspring but to you and everyone else in this Conscious Community. It is not my intent to destroy the atmosphere of free exchange of ideas and dialog in general. And yes, you are 100% correct, a hostile or disrespectful attitude is the opposite of what is needed to get people to listen to a message. The reverse is the consequence. So I have hurt not only others, but the community, myself, and my message.

Edward

Edward, I'm glad to see a public apology. Making accusations against people who don't agree with you, as you've done with HotSpring is a form of "violence" as I'm sure the supporters of non-violent communication would agree. And it doesn't do much to get the pro gun community to even want to read what you have to say. I'm kind of surprised that Barry didn't step in to remind you about the Wacco guidelines. But he may have been ready to....

[handy]

My apologies.

Edward

PS: I don't own a gun. Never have, never will. No need.

"No need" tells me you would choose to depend on government uniforms should the need ever arise.

This is your right, and I have no argument with it.

They will arrive late. As in, "When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away."

The question comes down to, whom would you rather they draw the chalk line around; you or the other?

People who choose to be prepared are merely taking a chance on having a chance, nothing more.

Best regards,

[handy]

Nothing like the truth and the whole truth, as someone posted on this subject (gun control) not long ago.

Yup. All numbers seem to get massaged. That's why we all need to read multiple sources and form our own decisons and perspectives. Got any figures for iatrogenic deaths per year? Or automobile deaths? Or drownings?

Singling out guns for "control" (read forced confiscation at some point), is a political control mechanism, not a safety interest.

On the issue of declaring some weapons "Assault Weapons", perhaps we should issue only "defense weapons" to the military, since what they are claimed to be doing is defense of the country. Or, to try do impose some descriptive accuracy, perhaps we should rename the Department of Defense the Department of Assault?

[Hotspring 44]

Edward, I appreciate and accept your apology.

My apologies.

Edward

PS: I don't own a gun. Never have, never will. No need.

[Hotspring 44]

Edward, I am glad you understand what I was saying about how I felt from some of our (your) communications (to and about me) on this thread.
Now that you recognize what was happening, you have a better chance to have your messages more thoroughly discussed in what will hopefully be a more conducive way to gain a consensus building theme on the things you want to realize.

There is allot of passion on all sides of this sensitive issue.

When you know deep in your heart what is good and you are passionate about it, you can't give-up on it even when it seems unlikely to achieve 100% of it.
You / me / everyone / we, may never know (that) what we put into whatever it is, that it may be a vital part of the whole that holds together the best outcome possible under the circumstance; we can only do our best we can.
Sometimes we get overzealous for our own best interest so when someone in the conscientious community recognizes it when it is happening to oneself or another, it helps to carefully as possible, point it out to the person (or acknowledge it) so we can have the better for all of us in communicating what we really need to relate.

I am glad I was able to get back on-line to post my response tonight because I will most likely be off-line for up to 2-3 weeks.

OK time to pull the internet plug for now.
Peace to everybody.

I did let my emotions get the best of me and for that I apologize not only to Hotspring but to you and everyone else in this Conscious Community. It is not my intent to destroy the atmosphere of free exchange of ideas and dialog in general. And yes, you are 100% correct, a hostile or disrespectful attitude is the opposite of what is needed to get people to listen to a message. The reverse is the consequence. So I have hurt not only others, but the community, myself, and my message.

Edward

[handy]

So are highway speed limits. (read “forced behavior that concerns public safety.”)

Not at all equal. Safety on the roads occurs because we, as individuals, trust each other to follow agreed upon rules. Force is only applied to those who break that trust, as it should be.

Confiscation by force, from people who didn't shoot anybody is not in the same ballpark at all.

[podfish]

People get fined if they break the law. People obey the law so they won’t get fined. .

how 'bout "Some people obey the law so they won't get fined. Others obey the law because they have a sense of responsibility and consideration for others. Probably the majority, too.
Assuming the worst of everyone, and taking the worst possible interpretation of their actions leads to excessive cynicism and in the long run leads people to support policies that embody this view: that other people need to be controlled so they don't get in my way. Funny how common is is for people who profess a desire for more freedom fall into this perspective, because the rational reaction if this view is correct is to limit freedoms, since that's the only way to control misbehavior.

[Barry]

My sense is that by bringing a gun to a confrontation you are actually increasing the likelihood that you will be shot. Non-violently capitulating to whatever the demand an the moment is probably the safest thing to do, if unpleasant at the moment and its aftermath. But at least you are still alive.

"No need" tells me you would choose to depend on government uniforms should the need ever arise.

This is your right, and I have no argument with it.

They will arrive late. As in, "When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away."

The question comes down to, whom would you rather they draw the chalk line around; you or the other?

People who choose to be prepared are merely taking a chance on having a chance, nothing more.

Best regards,

[Scooter]

"Don’t have any figures on baseball bats and safety, though."
Have you figures on anything? Or more hyperbole.

[Valley Oak]

Huh?

"Don’t have any figures on baseball bats and safety, though."
Have you figures on anything? Or more hyperbole.

[Valley Oak]

.
Scooter's grandmother:

"Don’t have any figures on baseball bats and safety, though."
Have you figures on anything? Or more hyperbole.

[Scooter]

It's probably a good thing you don't have guns Ed or you resort to using that instead of your computer to baselessly attack someone's dead grandparents because of a question you obviously don't understand. Try again.*

[Valley Oak]

Here's the scoop, Scoot:

Our second amendment rights are long overdue a reevaluation. How many more senseless and entirely PREVENTABLE shootings have to occur before we do something about Gun Control.

As a citizen and constituent of this great country, I am asking that you take a firm stand and make a positive change by restricting access to guns and saving lives.

I don't have a gun. I don't want a gun. I don't need a gun. But somehow the guns always wind up in the hands of people crazy enough to use them irresponsibly and dangerously. This HAS TO BE STOPPED.

It's probably a good thing you don't have guns Ed or you resort to using that instead of your computer to baselessly attack someone's dead grandparents because of a question you obviously don't understand. Try again.*

[Scooter]

All the while you use your first amendment rights to attack me and my dead family members. Your better how? How many guns do i have? Our society needs people to not jump on others for asking a question. Not matter how obvious the answer. We need people to not assume others have living grandparents and dont mind then being made fun of. But the sadly is not what this thread or what Wacco is turning into.

[handy]

In the beginning, there was the highway. ...

The Patchen Bible seems to have a later start than the one I read.

People on the roads “trust each other??!” That’s why there are speed limits? (Let me guess: you don’t have a car.)

Still as far off the mark as usual. Two cars, a truck and a couple of bicycles. And too much time on the 101.

People get fined if they break the law. People obey the law so they won’t get fined.
There’s a principle in there somewhere. I think for a lot of people it stems from the phrase “to promote the general Welfare...”

Wrong yet again. People get fined if they break the law AND get caught by a cop. People who obey the law, because they appreciate the shared sense of trust and safety, tend to live longer but may still get fined by a cop with a quota. Not all fine-able offenses have to do with safety.

Back to basic civics class, kiddo. Or just drive through Santa Rosa on 101. Stay within the speed limit... and get flipped off.

Can't see where civics class did much good. I'll stick with civility and courtesy. Yeah, I've been flipped off by angry,stupid, impatient people on rare occasion. Was that you?