RE: Debt Ceiling...Action

[lynn]

It's political war...
The 'extreme right wing' is not willing to raise the debt ceiling...Apparently, they could care less if the whole country tanks, and we all croak on the sidewalk...
So, the least people can do is show them their 'wrath' as much as possible...Unless of course, you agree with what Eric Cantor and his following want...
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Call and/or slam them with postcards...(Sometimes it's necessary to be a real pain in the ass)...

..
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Eric Cantor

Richmond Office | 4201 Dominion Blvd. Suite 110 | Glen Allen, VA 23060
p: (804) 747-4073 | Toll Free: (800) 438-3793 | f: (804) 747-5308

Culpeper Office | 763 Madison Road #207 | Culpeper, VA 22701
p: (540) 825-8960 | f: (540) 825-8964

DC Office | 303 Cannon House Office Building | Washington, D.C. 20515
p: 202-225-2815 | f: 202-225-0011
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As of today...Mitch McConnell is willing to make 'a deal' sort of with Obama...And the 'Cantorites' are giving him holy hell about that.

Fury on the right as McConnell outlines new plan for Obama to raise debt ceiling
https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...204213811.html

[Speak2Truth]

Raising the debt ceiling cannot continue. If it does, the whole country is guaranteed to tank. If it is raised now, Obama pushes forth is high speed rail plan and other costly programs to create a 'need' to raise it again. And again. Our nation is in debt that is almost unrecoverable. The Democrat plan is to make it unrecoverable, so that the nation can no longer make its interest payments.

Then you'll see how the nation 'tanks'. That's the plan.

If the debt ceiling is not raised today, existing commitments can be met including military spending, Social Security (that's OUR money anyway, so don't threaten to withold it, Obama!), interest payments on the debt, Medicare... all these continue. Unless, of course, the Democrats choose to disrupt them to cause havoc then blame the Republicans. They certainly have the power to pull that stunt.

[rossmen]

and then there are your made up quotes. when did obama threaten to hold back ss if the debt ceiling is not raised? yes he might have warned that might happen, not the same thing. i'll agree that marx wasn't a great family man, that doesn't mean you or anybody gets to put words to him.

Raising the debt ceiling cannot continue. If it does, the whole country is guaranteed to tank. If it is raised now, Obama pushes forth is high speed rail plan and other costly programs to create a 'need' to raise it again. And again. Our nation is in debt that is almost unrecoverable. The Democrat plan is to make it unrecoverable, so that the nation can no longer make its interest payments.

Then you'll see how the nation 'tanks'. That's the plan.

If the debt ceiling is not raised today, existing commitments can be met including military spending, Social Security (that's OUR money anyway, so don't threaten to withold it, Obama!), interest payments on the debt, Medicare... all these continue. Unless, of course, the Democrats choose to disrupt them to cause havoc then blame the Republicans. They certainly have the power to pull that stunt.

[Speak2Truth]

and then there are your made up quotes. when did obama threaten to hold back ss if the debt ceiling is not raised? yes he might have warned that might happen, not the same thing. i'll agree that marx wasn't a great family man, that doesn't mean you or anybody gets to put words to him.

Yes, Obama said the SS checks might not go out if he didn't get his way. Why?

THE MONEY IS THERE - or so Democrats have been telling us all along as they sneered at anyone saying Social Security might have problems.

Failure to raise the debt ceiling does not harm existing Social Security payments, if the politicians have been truthful in telling us that SS is funded for a long time to come.

Obama's words were a threat of action he might take, not a statement of something that would be a consequence caused by failing to raise the debt ceiling.

"I cannot guarantee that those checks go out on August 3rd if we haven't resolved this issue. Because there may simply not be the money in the coffers to do it," Mr. Obama said in an interview with CBS Evening News anchor Scott Pelley

WTF??

[rossmen]

your understanding of how social security works is simplistic. it is really an insurance program that is underfunded by premiums. you describe it more as an annuity which has been paid for. if the debt ceiling is not raised it will be interesting to see what the fed chooses not to pay. this will become more with time. the federal government does lots and pays for even more through state and local governments.

Yes, Obama said the SS checks might not go out if he didn't get his way. Why?

THE MONEY IS THERE - or so Democrats have been telling us all along as they sneered at anyone saying Social Security might have problems.

Failure to raise the debt ceiling does not harm existing Social Security payments, if the politicians have been truthful in telling us that SS is funded for a long time to come.

Obama's words were a threat of action he might take, not a statement of something that would be a consequence caused by failing to raise the debt ceiling.

"I cannot guarantee that those checks go out on August 3rd if we haven't resolved this issue. Because there may simply not be the money in the coffers to do it," Mr. Obama said in an interview with CBS Evening News anchor Scott Pelley

WTF??

[Speak2Truth]

your understanding of how social security works is simplistic. it is really an insurance program that is underfunded by premiums. you describe it more as an annuity which has been paid for. if the debt ceiling is not raised it will be interesting to see what the fed chooses not to pay. this will become more with time. the federal government does lots and pays for even more through state and local governments.

I'm familiar with how it really works. I'm simply pointing out that the sneering Democrats have ridiculed anyone claiming it is not "fully funded". There is NO reason for Obama to make the threat he did - unless he's calling his Party liars.

Current tax revenues will provide our military, social security, medicare and other key functions. No problem there.

I propose this: Do not raise the debt ceiling. Instead, make an accounting of the current tax revenues and ONLY allow expenditure of that amount of money. Certain things are prerequisites: Interest on the Debt, Military, Post Office, Coast Guard and Social Security. All else is open for haggling but the Congress and President get NO paychecks until they have worked out how to spend only what is coming in from current tax revenues.

If it takes them six months, they don't get back pay when they get it all worked out.

I think the first thing to cut is their fat pensions for life. Let them pay into Social Security like the rest of us!

[Iolchan]

This Amendment came out of the Aether & I received it:

AMENDMENT XXVIII

Money and Credit – Congress Asserts Power To Coin Money, and Emit Bills of Credit


[SECTION 1.] The Congress hereby asserts the power, granted in this Constitution, to coin money, and to regulate the value thereof. - And further, to emit non-interest-bearing bills of credit directly through the Treasury Department [on the Credit, and in the Name of the People.]

[SECTION 2.] The U.S. Congress hereby authorizes the Treasury to issue a sufficient quantity of Fiat “dollars” to purchase back the capital stock of the Federal Reserve Bank from the private owners, by eminent domain.

[SECTION 3.] The Federal Reserve Bank shall henceforth cease to exist as a private institution. All of the records, and the creative function of Credit-creation that were formerly vested in and granted to the Federal Reserve Bank, by the United States Congress, shall be transferred to the U.S. Congress, and the Augean Stables of the U.S. Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve Bank shall be cleaned out, and Subjected to the most minute Public Examination. A New Institution, the “Common-Wealth Central Bank” of the United States of America, shall henceforth function as a Sub-Treasury Central Bank of issue.

[SECTION 4.] The U.S. Congress does also hereby authorize the U.S. Treasury to recall, by eminent domain, all outstanding U.S. Treasury Securities, constituting the “National Debt,” and to Convert them by Fiat, into a new species of dollar-denominated, and non-interest-bearing credit instrument, to be termed "National Credit Receipts." All U.S Securities owned by individual persons shall be redeemed, at face value, in credit, on the books of the Common-Wealth Central Bank. However; all outstanding U.S. Treasury Securities originally purchased from the Federal Open Market Committee by Banking Corporations at bond-auctions, shall be discounted to seven percent of their “value” and be accounted as balances on the Books, and by the Credit, of the Common-Wealth Central Bank of the United States of America.

[SECTION 5.] The U.S. Treasury, and the Common-Wealth Central Bank of the United States of America [as the fountainhead of Credit Creation in the nation] shall henceforth Issue as Money only non-interest-bearing, fiat Treasury Notes, and Mint Coins of pure Specie, stamped with their weight and fineness. The books, accounts and records of the Treasury shall continually be open to public scrutiny. The Congress, in order to promote the General Welfare, shall find creative – and equitable - ways to invest and spread the new National Wealth. There shall be no further issues of Treasury Securities, or Bonds.

[SECTION 6.] Each of the State Treasury departments, of each of the fifty States, are also hereby empowered, by the same creative principle [formerly given by charter to banks] to create Credit within their own jurisdictions, in the form of checks, signed by the State comptrollers, in accordance with appropriations made by the State legislatures, for the purpose of maintaining State institutions, infrastructure, and salaries.

[SECTION 7.] In accordance with the provisions of this Article, all banks and financial institutions in America shall receive new charters from the Treasury. The U.S. Treasury and the Sub-Treasury Common-Wealth Central Bank {and the State Treasuries} shall henceforth have the unique and sole power within the nation to create Credit – a function formerly granted by the government [ and thus erroneously delegated ] only to Banks. Henceforth private banks may charge interest, to service accounts.

[SECTION 8.] In Sum, this Article defines, and enhances the powers granted to Congress and the Treasury, under Article I, Section 8, Clause 5, of this Constitution. Furthermore, it amends and modifies Article II, Section 10, Clause 1, to empower State Treasuries to create
[a limited amount of ] non-inflationary Credit, in the form of check-book money in order to meet the pressing needs of the States.

* * *


Why We Need Amendment XVIII, Now

Amendment XVIII does several things that are timely:

Amendment XXVIII Re-Asserts the Constitutional principle that Congress – the Representatives of We, the People - should control, and be the ultimate Arbiter over the Creation of Money and Credit.

Amendment XXVIII Nationalizes the private ownership of the Federal Reserve Bank, and subsumes the creative functions of that institution into the Treasury Department, creating one new entity, “The Treasury of Commonwealth” - to be established and dedicated to the Interest of the People – not Wall Street.

Amendment XXVIII Nationalizes the National Debt, and transforms, by Congressional Fiat, the old, fictional, fraudulent “National Debt,” held by prime banks in the form of U.S. Treasury Securities, into an actual National Blessing {Alexander Hamilton’s words} in the form of trillions of Dollars of “Common-Wealth” to be deposited in the New “Treasury of Common-Wealth,” by recalling, and transforming the U.S. Treasury Bonds, by Fiat, into a new, dollar-denominated credit instrument: the “National Credit-Receipt.” – Henceforth to be the Common property of all United States Citizens.

Amendment XXVIII offers a gradual approach, whereby Treasury Bonds held by foreign Banks shall still be paid off as they come due - provided that the Central Banks of the other nations shall re-organize themselves after this new, Federalized, American model. And - this is critical - Amendment XXVIII also asserts that “… there shall be no further issues of Treasury Securities, or Bonds.”


Amendment XXVIII opens, once again, the Treasury Mints to the free coinage of silver and gold. The new Commodity Money coins shall be stamped with their weight and fineness, not denominated in terms of “Dollars.”

Borrowing a page from the Articles of Confederation, Amendment XXVIII grants, once again, the State Governments the power to create Credit within their own jurisdictions. This will be of great help to the infrastructure and to Health, Education, and Welfare within the fifty states. It will serve the Interest of the People, but displease the banking elites and their minions.

Since State governments are empowered to grant charters to State Banks, which enable these Banks to create Credit, States also should be empowered to Create, with the stroke of a pen, sufficient Credit within their own jurisdictions to assist Human needs.

If Amendment XXVIII intended only to restore a lawful system of Constitutional money - with Fiat Treasury Bills replacing the interest-bearing debts known as "Federal Reserve Notes," then indeed, no Amendment would be necessary. The Constitution already provides Congress with the power to issue such notes as interest-free money. And the Supreme Court, in a landmark decision in the 1880's, ruled that the issuance of such notes comes within the Powers of Congress as writ in of Article I, Section 8, clause 5, of the Constitution.

However, Amendment XVIII is more ambitious than to do just that. An elegant solution, Amendment XVIII, also nationalizes the National Debt; transforms the Treasury Department into The Treasury of Common-wealth; fills the coffers of this new institution with trillions of "dollars" of Credit; and establishes a new specie of credit-instrument, a dollar-denominated "nation credit receipt" the aggregate sum of which shall be the Common property of all American citizens - not just the small elite who are fortunate to inherit the right stock in the right {Wall Street money-market } banks.

Amendment XXVIII merges the Federal Reserve Bank into the Treasury Department, and Subsumes the creative, credit-creation function of the Fed into the new "Common-Wealth" Treasury. Henceforth, the Treasury shall not be compelled to issue interest-bearing Treasury Securities to "back" all of the paper "dollars" that the Fed currently issues. Instead, the Treasury shall issue non-interest-bearing Treasury notes, as Abraham Lincoln and John Fitzgerald Kennedy were able, for a short time, to do.

Amendment XXVIII also grants the fifty States the power to create credit within their own sovereign jurisdictions, to meet their crushing deficit burdens, instead of having to float endless bond issues and borrow more "money" at interest from banks and investors of the bond-holding class. The Articles of Confederation, drafted by the Revolutionary Continental Convention of 1777, allowed the States this power - and it should be restored to the several States, in order for there to be a healthy society in North America.

Thus, Clause 9 reads: "Furthermore, it amends and modifies Article II, Section 10, clause 1, to empower State Treasuries to create [ a limited amount of ] non-inflationary Credit, in the form of check-book money in order to meet the pressing needs of the States."


Sincerely,
Mark Walter Evans,

Sleepy Hollow,
Hood Mountain,
New, New Caledonia

[anathstryx]

I'm familiar with how it really works. I'm simply pointing out that the sneering Democrats have ridiculed anyone claiming it is not "fully funded". There is NO reason for Obama to make the threat he did - unless he's calling his Party liars.

Current tax revenues will provide our military, social security, medicare and other key functions. No problem there.

I propose this: Do not raise the debt ceiling. Instead, make an accounting of the current tax revenues and ONLY allow expenditure of that amount of money. Certain things are prerequisites: Interest on the Debt, Military, Post Office, Coast Guard and Social Security. All else is open for haggling but the Congress and President get NO paychecks until they have worked out how to spend only what is coming in from current tax revenues.

If it takes them six months, they don't get back pay when they get it all worked out.

I think the first thing to cut is their fat pensions for life. Let them pay into Social Security like the rest of us!

https://www.snopes.com/politics/soci...y/pensions.asp

[Speak2Truth]

https://www.snopes.com/politics/soci...y/pensions.asp

My mistake - they do pay into Social Security. They just don't depend on it for retirement like the working stiffs they are robbing.

This from Wikipedia: "The pension amount is determined by a formula that takes into account the years served and the average pay for the top three years in terms of payment. In 2002, the average pension payment ranged from $41,000 to $55,000. For example, a member of Congress who worked for 22 years and had a top three-year average salary of $153,900 would be eligible for a pension payment of $84,645 per year."

I still say their fat pensions are on the chopping block along with everything else - except the critical functions of government. They seem all to happy to indenture unborn children with a debt burden that may never be paid - and are demanding we raise the debt limit even more. NO!



This poor kid may be in more than twice that debt - because over 50% of her countrymen will be paying no taxes, her burden is far, far greater than the "per capita" division.

Poor kid.

[Clancy]

My mistake - they do pay into Social Security...

This poor kid may be in more than twice that debt - because over 50% of her countrymen will be paying no taxes, her burden is far, far greater than the "per capita" division.

Poor kid.

This is an obscene lie.

Everybody pays myriad kinds of taxes, and the poor pay the highest percentage of their income in taxes of all.

If over 50% of the people paid no taxes, there'd be no deductions on their paychecks, no sales tax at the register, no tax at the gas pump, no tax on their telephone service, electric bills, gas bills, fishing licenses, bridge crossings, etc etc etc.

Yes, some of us know what you really mean, and some of us know that most of your contributions here are, wittingly or not, simply parroted corporate-apologist talking points and rhetorical devices. Tedious and ubiquitous, they're being efficiently used in all the media to suppress the last vestiges of resistance to the corporate looting of our dying nation.

I'll let George Carlin have the last word on the subject...

https://youtu.be/wV1lZMTCqf8

[lynn]

"I still say their fat pensions are on the chopping block along with everything else - except the critical functions of government. They seem all to happy to indenture unborn children with a debt burden that may never be paid - and are demanding we raise the debt limit even more. NO!"...

Totally disagree of course!...We need to make good on our debts already accumulated...
From what I hear, NOT raising the debt ceiling will hurt us economically even more...
We've been in a fragile recovery...This blocking of raising the debt ceiling is creating even more fragility...and is risking higher interest rates, and loss of investments, and pensions - Again!...
(Do agree they shouldn't get a dime though, 'till they straighten things out a bit better)....

Debt ceiling and your money: Now it's getting personal

With less than a week to go before the nation's borrowing limit must be lifted, the debate over the debt ceiling rages on, with your money hanging in the balance.
Even though the possibility of a default seems unlikely, credit agencies have warned that they will downgrade the nation's credit rating if Washington cannot hammer out a debt deal soon.

https://money.cnn.com/2011/07/28/pf/...pact/index.htm
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["Mad" Miles]

Global markets are already responding to the threat of default, the gridlock and the irrational claims of the critics who have enough power to stymie a deal. Heard last night the dollar has been dropping. And the Wall Street stats are looking quite grim. I'm no fan of the system, but at present, it's what we all depend on, this is no joke, folks.

[Clancy]

Global markets are already responding to the threat of default, the gridlock and the irrational claims of the critics who have enough power to stymie a deal. Heard last night the dollar has been dropping. And the Wall Street stats are looking quite grim. I'm no fan of the system, but at present, it's what we all depend on, this is no joke, folks.

The windfall Wall St and the banksters will get when Obama guts SS and Medicare will more than make up for the bad press from this necessary theater. The public wouldn't accept the theft of SS for anything less. Poor, naive people all over the country will now defend Obama's actions, because, after all, those unreasonable republicans gave the democrats no choice but to abandon the people and fatten up the fat cats yet again.

If we REALLY had leadership in Washington, they'd rescind the insane 'bailouts' and throw the people responsible for the economic meltdown in jail. Instead, they're surrounding Obama in the White House as his 'economic advisors' and most waccos, like most americans, haven't a clue.

[Speak2Truth]

Poorly stated on my part. I should have clarified that as income tax. And, as you pointed out, there are myriad other tax breaks as well as handouts to the lower earning percentile to offset their burden at the expense of others.

A new analysis from the U.S. Congress’s nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) found that 51 percent of U.S. households did not pay any federal income tax in 2009.

The report was unveiled during a hearing Tuesday by the Senate Finance Committee on the distribution of tax benefits and burdens in the U.S. tax code.

According to the analysis, 51 percent of all households — including filers and non-filers — had either zero or negative income tax liability for tax year 2009, and 30 percent of tax units made money off the income tax system that tax year.

How did things look for 2010?

https://www.gobankingrates.com/tax/4...-income-taxes/

As millions of Americans wrap up tax preparations for 2010, nearly half will discover (or have already found out) that they owe no Federal income taxes for last year. According to a new estimate released by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, roughly 45 percent of households will end up owing nothing in Federal income tax and some will even have money paid to them by the government. ... Of the 69 million who don’t owe income taxes, 5 million make somewhere between $50,000 and more than $1 million.

Huh.

I don't think it's a lie. Just a missing word. "Income" tax.

[Speak2Truth]

If we REALLY had leadership in Washington, they'd rescind the insane 'bailouts' and throw the people responsible for the economic meltdown in jail. Instead, they're surrounding Obama in the White House as his 'economic advisors' and most waccos, like most americans, haven't a clue.

Horrible, but true. A coterie of crooks took control of our nation and pillaged enormous amounts of our money. The crime has been accomplished.

Rahm Emanuel on Board of Freddie Mac (Obama made him Chief of Staff)
Misreported profits by billions of dollars in order to deceive investors between the years 2000 and 2002
https://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blo...others-on.html

Franklin Raines holds patent for carbon trading, stands to make millions from Obama Cap 'n Trade
Engaged in fraudulent accounting at Fannie Mae to pocket $90 million in bonuses
https://www.wnd.com/?pageId=168077

Update: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Invest in Lawmakers
Barak Obama and John Kerry are number two and three
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/200...d-freddie.html

Obama is cutting them in on the next big scam, the carbon trading scheme he and his buddies have been cooking up for years while positioning themselves to pocket a cut of the cash flow.

Chicago bank has questionable ties to Obama administration
Shore Bank set up to launder "carbon" money expected to be very profitable for closely tied backers
https://www.examiner.com/x-15898-Cincinnati-Conservative-Examiner~y2010m5d21-Obama-ties-to-shore-bank-worth-examining

Obama Years Ago Helped Fund Carbon Scheme He Is Now Pushing Through Congress
On Board of Joyce Foundation, Obama helped build Chicago Climate Exchange
Paula DiPerna, President of CCX International, was President of Joyce Foundation at the time
https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2214213/posts

Obama’s involvement in Chicago Climate Exchange—the rest of the story
https://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/9629

[Iolchan]

Q: To Whom Do We Owe IT;
This so-called "Debt?" ?

Clancy wrote:

The windfall Wall St and the banksters will get when Obama guts SS and Medicare will more than make up for the bad press from this necessary theater. The public wouldn't accept the theft of SS for anything less. Poor, naive people all over the country will now defend Obama's actions, because, after all, those unreasonable republicans gave the democrats no choice but to abandon the people and fatten up the fat cats yet again.

If we REALLY had leadership in Washington, they'd rescind the insane 'bailouts' and throw the people responsible for the economic meltdown in jail. Instead, they're surrounding Obama in the White House as his 'economic advisors' and most waccos, like most americans, haven't a clue.

That's just it: Obama is their Asset, their Steppin' Fetchit,' high brown, House Negro, like Brother Malcolm warned us about. Ha! I thought I could never get the courage to say that, kids, and now that it's out, on my monitor, and I can reflect 0n the slight courage it took to push my fingers to write it, I can say, honestly, to you-all, that as an old Oaktowner I've got a perfect right to say it; I've paid my dues; and I love Black Folks - or whatever they prefer to be called these days - "African-Americans." I'll say it again, and up the ante:

'Bama has got no loyalty to the people who believed his smooth Chi-town politician rhetoric about "Change" and "Hope" and voted for him. He's a House Negro, who sold out long ago; probably back when he was a grad student at Columbia. He just got taken downtown in a big limozine, and they showed him how nice They had it; and then he was told that he could even make PRES, If he played his cards right and sold his soul, to THEM, Inc.,. Yeah, they took that boy downtown a long time ago.

Tragedy of this is that we'se all just Field Negroes to them - and useless eaters on ye olde Global Plantation, to THEM, Inc., Now. And this heah Crisis, Planned for decades, is all about "Culling the useless eaters" from off the face of the Earth, Chilluns. It is that Serious. And 'Bama ain't nothing but their tool - just as W was. There's just been a Shift from one tack - Neo-Conservatism - back to the old, governing Centrism of the Rockefeller Center. O well. Don't say I didn't warn you. I have longtemps holden my peace.

Now, to deal with this little error in your conceptual path, dear lynn:

lynn wrote:
Totally disagree of course!...We need to make good on our debts already accumulated...
From what I hear, NOT raising the debt ceiling will hurt us economically even more...
We've been in a fragile recovery...This blocking of raising the debt ceiling is creating even more fragility...and is risking higher interest rates, and loss of investments, and pensions - Again!...
(Do agree they shouldn't get a dime though, 'till they straighten things out a bit better)....

Debt ceiling and your money: Now it's getting personal

With less than a week to go before the nation's borrowing limit must be lifted, the debate over the debt ceiling rages on, with your money hanging in the balance.
Even though the possibility of a default seems unlikely, credit agencies have warned that they will downgrade the nation's credit rating if Washington cannot hammer out a debt deal soon.

Do you really know that any of these assertions are true - besides the fact that Bernacke is shouting "Mush!" - Lynn? I mean, just because they proceed from CNN, is that any reason to invest in the certainty of these particular Wall Street sanctioned pontifications ?

CNN is just a News-outlet tailored for Democrats; to do their thinking for them. Fox is tailored for so-called "Republicans;" - just one more example of the controlled dialectic. There are many voices saying many things, to many variously scattered & strewn, & targeted folks, all across the political spectrum, just now, honey - and the net effect is to cause Chaos, Confusion and dismay. This is about to become a Panic. In a `media-governed society, there must be many voices out there, each competing for a sector of the electorate - or the expectorate, as we may actually, only be.

Personally, I really must disagree with your statement: "We need to make good on our debts already accumulated..." Why must needs we "...make good on our debts already accumulated..." ?

This is not a legitimate Debt, this Fourteen Trillion {14,000,000,000,000} + {plus} dollars that is "owed." Do you have any idea by Whom -=- and to Whom, this "Debt" was incurred? Do you have any cogent Idea of What it is that is "Owed," =OR= in What Medium it has its "being?" =OR= Why it is that We, the People, owe this "Debt?" =OR= to Whom we owe it? =OR= Where? or How this so-called "Debt" was incurred? =OR= Why =OR=IF= it should even be considered a Legitimate Debt?

And furthermore, Do you have any Idea of the Locations, or the Repositories, where this "Debt" is Safe-housed? Look into it, and get back to us with a Theory, in accordance with the Journalistic Who, What, When, Where, How & Why of It, before you serve us warmed-over platitudes from CNN about how we "must."

The National Debt, is not something that we "Owe to Ourselves" as that witty and genteel Hudson Squire, Wall Street Broker, and Father Christmas, Franklin D. Roosevelt, informed the body politic in America early on in His Reign. = And which has ever since been the self- deluding mantra of liberal Democrats whenever nagging doubts intrude into their minds on the Subject and they wonder: "What if...?"

When in Doubt, Democrats, just Repeat the Mantra : "We owe it to Ourselves... We owe it to Ourselves... We owe it to Ourselves... We owe it to Ourselves..."

Indeed we do not owe it to ourselves. Unless of course you happen to be in that small Set of jolly blue-bloods who are co-incidentally, like Franklin D. Roosevelt, members of both Sets; i.e., the Public Sector, the "We" who owe and also to the much smaller Set of the owning class, the bond- holders, i.e., the "Ourselves," to whom the current Fourteen Thousand Plus, Billion Dollars, is now "owed."

Then indeed, one could say, truly:"We Owe it to Ourselves." Otherwise, it is a Lie. It was a brilliant "in joke"at the time, and I'm sure that Franklin D. and the old boys must have had a good laugh about it back at the Men's Club. It was a funny joke to the old boys sitting in their Lounge Chairs at the Men's Club. Problem is, it is now no longer funny, to us here in 2011; We, who sit in the before-math of some new Global Holocaust of the We-uns, the Plebeses.

And Now, that the gig is up,
I suggest that we just Cash in on the old man's false assurance & promise,
and Recall the Debt, and Nationalize It. That is All = Just Refuse to Pay
the Bankers and their Stockholders, the Bond-holders = the Cretins
who sit in their Lounge Chairs in Men's Clubs;
One more Red Cent !! It is Blood-Money
that made all their Wars Possible !!
- This endless F---in' Keynesian Float!!
Just Say No!!
Just Say No!!
Just Say No!!

I say End it !!! Repudiate the Debt. Let the General Public Repudiate and End the Debt. It was Created by Government Fiat, falsely farmed out to Banksters who fraudulently formed a falsely Labeled "Central Bank," which was designed from the Jump to squeeze the lifeblood and the sweat out of the Masses. I refer to the Federal Reserve Bank.

Cashier it! Nationalize the Damned thing! Turn it into a Museum, and let the People see, in it's entrails, the Murdered millions of both World Wars! Let it be a Chamber of horrors and as a Holocaust Museum unto U.S., the poor, lost, benighted sold-down-the-River Slaves to the damned Norte Americano Debt-dollah! --- Bought for us by the bought and paid for politicians who sold us down the River back in 1913.

Such fictions, which Objectively, are nothing but Fraud, elegantly shod and adorned, can also be repudiated by Fiat, and acknowledged by U.S., & the current crop of politico-criminales to be the Fraud they most certainly were and Are. Such Fictions as the "Federal Reserve Bank," and its fraudulently created "Debt" may always be reversed by Collective Fiat, better known in the Old Days as the Will of the Masses. Los Peublos Unidos Jamas Seran Vencidos! The "Debt" is just so much Hocus Pocus, kids !!! - And Words Rule = Thoughts Rule! Wake Up! Pay No Attention to the Man behind the Curtain !

Los Peublos Unidos Jamas Seran Vencidos!
Los Peublos Unidos Jamas Seran Vencidos!
Los Peublos Unidos Jamas Seran Vencidos!

[Clancy]

That's just it: Obama is their Asset...

You are correct, but color has nothing to do with it.

Every president, Dem or GOP, since Ronald Reagan has been little more than a spokesperson for the moneyed elite. Here's a brief but shocking clip of Reagan publicly taking orders from his literal corporate master...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTcL...ature=youtu.be

[Iolchan]

Yo !

Of course Color has nothing to do with it. The Man's Color - and the hype that his handlers invoked & ladled out about the Legacy of Martin Luther King, and Abraham Lincoln - was merely the means by which the Wall Street Derivitives-Market Bankers got away with the Heist - and have been able to pacify and dupe so many Liberals, until Now.

Well Wake up, Sheeples !! You are being fleeced !!

The buying of the Presidency goes back way further than Ronnie baby. I would submit that it goes back to the post-Civil War era, at least. Ever since the critical year of 1877, when there was almost a second Revolution, and there was a whole lot of Armory - building, in a big hurry {as shelters for the rich folks where they could secure their stocks, bonds, debentures, jewels & other moveables from the perceived wrath of potential Jacobin Mobs} the "bi-partisan party bosses" have been meeting in "smoke-filled rooms" in the ball-room sized Drawing Room of some damned Men's Club in Mid-town Manhattan, in the Spring of every election year, "to decide who will win, place, and show in the coming Primary and Fall elections, and where the patronage will go." { Edith Fleischer Liggett's words, in The Mid-West American, Rochester, Minnesota, 1934.}

I have that on the word of honor from my newspaper reporter grandmother, Edith Fleischer Liggett, who covered City Hall, and Tammany Hall, beginning at the age of Sixteen, from her roost, first at the Brooklyn Eagle - and then from the New York Call, in old Manhattan itself.

Its called a Duopoly. And its been going on ever since the Compromise of '77 worked so well that it became a new arrangement, a must for the efficient functioning of the American System. Ever since the Compromise of 1877, the Democrat Party, and the Republican Party have been functioning as "the two wings of the same bird of prey." {Walter W. Liggett's spoken words, in a rousing speech in which the famous journalist and two-time amateur boxing champion of the Great State of Minnesota {1915-1916} spoke of the potential Farmer-Labor Alternative Future: It was a future that was possible, and beneficent - but instead, we got World War Two and all the nightmares that have followed - all financed by the Federal Reserve Banksters. The speech was given in the context of a Farmer-Labor Chataqua, in the Town Square of Rochester, Minnesota, on May Day, in 1934.

And I, who am merely the bearer of a family tradition, am only left alone alone to tell thee.

Mark Walter Evans
www.paleoprogressives.org

[Thad]

Q: To Whom Do We Owe IT;

Thank you very much for the Lindbergh document.

It is so hard to tell what is true from reports of who done what, I don't have the mind to hold all of it together and compare it, but this document rings very clearly as high on the scale of plausible.

I like so much the reference to "capital having no weight but what labor gives it" that the direction is from there to do anything about it all.

The complexity of everything has left such a doldrum of futility of who and what to believe in that the idea of a chart of what a natural system of order would require someone to have a decent life compared to todays artificial costs that have captured everything would be a great tool to have to begin awakening people who have become mired in the weariness of the daily slog to simply make ends meet.

Talking and talking and talking is not the way, believing in politcal change is not the way, we must have a new economy and start it right here in Sonoma County as a model.

It could be fun, it could be theater, it could be engineering and could save some drowning people.

How much should one work in a day to supply the comforts of liberty... how does one arrive at that figure not in terms of today's formulas.

The natural working out of bad design is inescapable, there is only damage control, What will save the homeless will save you when calamity finally arrives full born.

Todays homeless are of a new class of people that you cannot presume your sense of righteousness that they live that way because they want to, to look at them more as the ones who could find no direction to believe in would be closer to the truth, as well as those who's lives collapsed through the natural outcome of an inflated market.

It had to fall.

So what to do here with the creativity, the wisdom available to become island communities to keep the moneys here. How about everyone start wearing tailored clothing created by jobs made locally by unemployed people,

What example of a frontier community can we be so we have something in place to provide for all of us here when it really gets to where its going...

[Speak2Truth]

We're Spiraling Into Unrecoverable Debt and What Do They Do?

Some things haven't changed.

[lynn]

..."Do you really know that any of these assertions are true - besides the fact that Bernacke is shouting "Mush!" - Lynn? I mean, just because they proceed from CNN, is that any reason to invest in the certainty of these particular Wall Street sanctioned pontifications?"...
--------

No, I don't know anything...I'm really, really stupid, okay?...
There, you happy now?
I suuppooooose I could attempt to be glad that your own preachy, pontificating post didn't go on even looooooonger...
And if you think you have some kind of 'courage' because you typed and posted some claptrap on a board...Maybe you could try and get over yourself a little, or a lot.

Better yet, I hope you are supportin' some people who became homeless in the '08 'crash'...And if things crash again will support some more homeless people.

People (like you and me) get eaten' up and spat out every day no matter what we think, and so far I just keep knockin' on wood...So, don't 'preach' to me about 'the system', and how Obama is a 'stepin' fetchit'...

Maybe, you should go hang out with the LaRouche (Obama is Hilter) culties, and yak with them...

[Iolchan]

In Response to Lynn

Dear Lynn:

Please do not take my post so personally. I mean no harm, nor any disparagement of you. Remember the Four Agreements? In no way do I mean to criticize you, personally - or your intelligence – only the tendency, which is very common among Americans of all political, and sociological persuasions, to let Media Outlets, like CNN, do our thinking for us.

Obviously, for you to have initiated this thread in the first place shows that you are awake, and also that you care – both of which are good things. And people like you and me do get eaten up and spat out every day, by the powers-that-be; that is so true. See, we have a commonality. Let us rejoice in that.

Now, to address the issue of my coming out critically on the issue of what our president, Barack Obama, has been doing, during his Term, you wrote:

“And if you think you have some kind of 'courage' because you typed and posted some claptrap on a board...Maybe you could try and get over yourself a little, or a lot.”

And then at the end, you wrote, almost as an afterthought:

“Maybe, you should go hang out with the LaRouche (Obama is Hilter) culties, and yak with them...”

I submit, that there is a contradiction inherent between these two thoughts – and it is a little remarkable that both statements came from the same mind; at the same sitting. So I ask you – does it take any courage to come out critically against Barack Obama, and what he is doing?

Yes, Obviously. Because when one does “come out” in this manner, one runs the risk of being typecast as either a “right-winger,” a LaRouche cultist, or a racist. Do I have to protest that I am none of the Above? Evidently, I must.

Let me just say that I was, for years, a registered member of the Peace & Freedom Party. I switched in ’92 just before the primary, after I heard Jerry Brown speak at Courthouse Square in Santa Rosa. I wanted to vote for him in the primary. I ended up voting for Clinton in November of 1992.

That was the last time I ever voted for any presidential candidate at all... Since then, I have basically followed the old Anarchist aphorism, “Don’t Vote; It Only Encourages Them.”

My late mother, on the other, hand, and my brother and sister were all early and enthusiastic supporters of Barack Obama. My sister Heather spent a lot of her own money, carpooling from L.A. up to Las Vegas, Nevada, during the ’08 campaign, to canvas door to door for Barack, and to register undecided voters as Democrats, to put the Man in.

I admired her zeal at the time, though I found that I was, somehow, immune to the thrill that the Man projected. As the oldest child, who was closest to our old grandmother, I always remembered what Edith Fleischer Liggett told me, as a child, about her experiences as a reporter in the teens and twenties with regard to Tammany Hall, and how the Democrat Party and the Republican Party have been in cahoots ever since the Compromise of 1877.

After the election of 2008, I also, along with my siblings, held a certain amount of “hope” that somehow there would be “Change,” as was promised in the campaign. As I wrote, I have, for a long time, held my peace. But alas, what we have received is just a continuation of the same, unconstitutional, undeclared Wars – in Iraq & Afghanistan - that were pursued under W. Plus new Wars, in Libya, and elsewhere in Africa – all of which add, incredibly, to the National Debt.

It was very clever of Them {the Presidium of the Trialateral Commission} to put a high brown person of color in the white house presidential slot after W, in order to co-opt the Liberal sector of the electorate in America.

Furthermore, I assert that it is both reasonable and legitimate to state that Barack Obama is a kind of “Steppin’ Fetchit” who serves and waits on the lily white Masters of the Global Plantation. He is the very model of the sort of House Negro, with the powdered white wig, buckled shoes, and gabardine knee britches whom you might expect to open the front door when calling on the Gentry at some fine Town House in St. James Square in 1720, in old London Town.

To tar me with the LaRouche brush, Dear Lynn, is a bit of a low blow – but I’ll take my own words about The Four Agreements, to heart, and not take it personally. Bless you.

Mark Walter Evans

By the way I like this:

“Better yet, I hope you are supportin' some people who became homeless in the '08 'crash'...And if things crash again will support some more homeless people.”

Actually I do, upon occasion. Any takers? I'll be glad to interview any worthy candidates who are willing to rough it, and live in the mountains.

Another Sort of Steppin' Fetchit :

The Rockefeller/Morgan-Funded Preacher
of Scofield Bible "Dispensationalism"

Sincerely,

Mark Walter Evans

[zenekar]

We're Spiraling Into Unrecoverable Debt and What Do They Do?

Some things haven't changed.

Yes, they change to the worst when it comes to spending on empire -- trillions for the US military, for invasions and occupations of other nations for their resources and cheap labor, paid for by tax payers. Would that have anything to do with the deficit?! Yes, let's cut social programs, education, health care to pay for US WMDs. An evil policy! And the rich get richer from the hard labor and suffering of others. You paint a dreadful picture with your right wing ideology (idiocy). Where is your humanity?

[zenekar]

Listen to reason, understand compassion.

Bernie Sanders: The American People are Angry
https://www.youtube.com/user/Senator.../2/If_1T4Os270

[podfish]

We're Spiraling Into Unrecoverable Debt and What Do They Do?

Some things haven't changed.

hey, did the stuff they were warning us about ever happen? I missed it...

[Thad]

I would like to see a theater piece of what someone can do with the money of the price of a nuclear bomb? As a challenge to Pentagon funding ~~~~

How much money do they spend making work for idle soldiers?

[Dixon]

How much money do they spend making work for idle soldiers?

When I was in the Army ('69-'71), my MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) was Artillery Fire Direction Center. I "fought the war" in Fort Sill, Oklahoma and Fort Riley, Kansas, where we spent day after day, month after month firing expensive artillery shells ($200+ each) at imaginary targets in empty, pock-marked fields, at tremendous expense to the taxpayer and no constructive purpose whatsoever. When not doing that, they'd march us down to the motor pool where we'd check the oil and tires on trucks that weren't being driven, day after day after day. Your tax dollars at work!

In Fort Riley, my buddy Dan Nash, freshly back from Vietnam, told me about how tax money was spent there. His company was preparing for an Inspector General inspection. They had two huge vehicles of a type that pulls tanks out of the mud when they get stuck. These vehicles cost at least $100,000 each (in 1969!)--maybe lots more, I'm not sure. On paper, they were only authorized to have one such vehicle in that company, so to avoid getting into trouble with the Inspector General for having the extra vehicle, the Commanding Officer detailed a bunch of PFCs with entrenching tools (i.e., shovels) to dig a big hole and bury one of the two vehicles. Then they built an enlisted mens' club on top of it. Again, our tax dollars at work!

Military expenditures are one of the things that folks like "Speak2Truth" apparently think we should spend our money on while cutting funding for education, health care, etc.

[someguy]

It's political war...
The 'extreme right wing' is not willing to raise the debt ceiling...Apparently, they could care less if the whole country tanks, and we all croak on the sidewalk...

So now that the debt ceiling has been raised, and the stock market has plummeted, our AAA rating has been down-graded, do you still believe that our economy would have been worse off if we hadn't raised the debt ceiling and lived within our previous purse?

[lynn]

someguy..."So now that the debt ceiling has been raised, and the stock market has plummeted, our AAA rating has been down-graded, do you still believe that our economy would have been worse off if we hadn't raised the debt ceiling and lived within our previous purse?"...
--------------------

Of course no-one has a crystal ball...But, yes...Some stated several days before that the damage was already done...
I still wish Obama would have given the finger to the Repubs. at least 2 weeks ago if not sooner and invoked the 14th and let people's heads explode over whether that was 'constitutional' or not (some said yes, some thought no)...But, I figured he wouldn't do it...That's not who he is, that's not what he does...

I still think those (whatever political persuasion) who thought it was okay to NOT raise the debt ceiling are absolutely out of their freakin' minds...Along with it not being Constitutional...
Of course all the major countries of the world started freakin' out...

I mean hey, you call up everyone and say you ain't gonna' pay what you owe...Hahahahaha! See how they like it...

The 'tea-baggers' ALWAYS yack about being strict Constitutionalists, and why the Dems. didn't hang them with this regarding the debt ceiling is beyond me...Maybe because they don't care about the Constitution either...I don't know...

Most of all I blame the 'liberal', 'progressive', 'moderates' - the whiny, wimpy complainers who couldn't get off their butts and vote in November...All they could do was complain about Obama, and not gettin' their own way after not even 2yrs!!...All the while the 'we hate Social Security tea-partiers' were angry and getting organized to vote!!...
No-wonder why 'liberals', 'progressives' have a spoiled brat reputation...'Cause so many of 'em are whiny and wimpy as hell...

The Repubs. WHOLE agenda is to make things worse...block anything half decent that Obama might even try to do...And people couldn't even get off their butts to vote against THAT?!!...
I wish the dead founding fathers, women, labor rights/civil rights activists, would come back just to haunt those lazy asses!!...Whoever they are!!
I was one of those people 'screamin' not to let more of these 'market as god', kill SS, and medicare jerks in the gov't...But, I'm just another nobody who's got nothin'...

I don't care how bad it is next year, or how much those people who voted for Obama hate him now...The other alternative is much worse in my book, and we are in political/economic war...If people who don't want to see complete Corporate control can't get off their butts and stand up for themselves, or at least for someone and get involved and vote...Then maybe this country is doomed...

And that reminds me...Voting day in Wisconsin is coming up this next Tuesday!...And there's some good people running against the Walker agenda!...They always need a dime!...

Thanks for asking...I went ahead and vented a little...:)

["Mad" Miles]

Lynn,

I was totally with you in your first four paragraphs (and we know now rare that is...) and I'm down with your penultimate.

But, your attack on the wishy washy corporate liberals? First, I'm no fan of Liberalism. So agreed that "they" talk out of both sides of their mouths. But rallying the troops to back The Obaminator (a term of respect, admiration and snark, of mine)?

First, he's no Liberal, or Progressive. Second, if the only viable choice is between the Dems or the Tea Party. Well, you do the math.

I once had a Prof., who I respected, who said that all of the wars in the 20th C. were initiated by Liberals. It had an impact.

And I repeat, President Obama is no Liberal. He's a neo, Straussian (IMHO) beholden to his Corporate fundraisers. Most, if not all, of his appointments and policies show that very clearly. He's clearly a smart guy. The question is, how much difference does that make?

He took a big hit today, because of the S&P's downgrade from AAA to AA+. Time will tell.

The discussion tonight on Charley Reptile was state of the art. Anderson 360 laid it out as well. The debate is between competing Capitalist interests. And clearly, based upon their consensus, the Tea Party is made up of Anarchist (negative definition) Wreckers.

Remember what Malcolm said after JFK was offed? "Chickens come home to roost." Caused a lot of ruckus. Doesn't mean he was clueless.