There are too many police officers in downtown Sebastopol!

[Pasquale]

I am quite pissed off about the increased police presence in Sebastopol right now. And let me explain why. First, I don’t have to be in town for more than 15 minutes to see anywhere from 2-4 different policeman pulling people over. Are all these people doing things that warrant getting pulled over? Probably, not. We all know what kind of traffic offenses warrant getting pulled over and which ones are totally ridiculous.

Next, if there are that many cars rolling through town which is substantially higher than the inhabitants in the town, then why does the accident record point to the way people drive and not to the amount of cars on the road?

This then leads to the layout of the town which is the true culprit for this dismal driving record. For starters, there should not be any parking in the town square. Not only would that simple change contribute to more people on foot in town, it will also promote a more community feeling in the downtown area. Which anyone here will tell you is lacking, except at whole foods of course.

And now that I am on the subject, what about the layout of the town? Does it really work? Are we happy with this kind of congestion on a daily basis? Why isn’t this a major issue addressed by our local elected officials?

At any rate, it is simply unfair to treat the town of Sebastopol and it’s surrounding community like it is all our fault that these accidents seem to be happening.

Any thoughts?

These comments are related to the article below:
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showt...+law+violators

[Alexandra]

I agree. I was pulled over by one of them for having a cracked back tail light. I generally have had positive experiences with police officers and see them as performing a valuable service. This one was aggressive and his behavior towards me and the children in the car was frightening to the point where 2 of them began to cry. He had a real chip on his shoulder , tightly wound and ready to launch into someone. His supervisor arrived on the scene after awhile and apologized for the officer's behavior and said he would be speaking with him. I still received an expensive ticket. While this all was happening, 3 others cars were pulled over in proximity to us- it was a bit unreal and left a very bad impression about being in downtown. We have decided to go elsewhere for our errands for at least awhile.

[podfish]

I am quite pissed off about the increased police presence in Sebastopol right now. And let me explain why. First, I don’t have to be in town for more than 15 minutes to see anywhere from 2-4 different policeman pulling people over. Are all these people doing things that warrant getting pulled over? Probably, not. We all know what kind of traffic offenses warrant getting pulled over and which ones are totally ridiculous.

no we don't. Are you just objecting to the visibility of police on a general level?
I have my own preference as to what laws - especially traffic law - they'd enforce. I want them to make sure people are paying attention: signaling, stopping at signals, yielding correctly, etc. Others I bet want speeding or tailgating enforced. But there's a bunch of terrible driving going on around here, so I don't have a problem with them cleaning it up some. I've yet to hear of someone being ticketed who honestly didn't deserve it at all. In my own experiences with them I've found them more lenient than I expected - but then again, I learned to drive in Santa Monica, home of the storm trooper wannabees.
On the other hand, it's not that bad - if we had less enforcement it wouldn't matter much either. I think they fall well within the tolerable spectrum.

[tomcat]

Thoughts? Yes, a few.

Keep your vehicle in good repair and follow all the rules and laws while driving.

Try to keep a positive attitude and be friendly with everyone you meet. (cops included)

I love parking in the town square and walking all over town to shop. I pay VERY close attention while using crosswalks!

I'm not sure there is much that can be done about the layout of Sebastopol at this point in time, but a highway bypass of some sort would be great.

Enjoy this life... It'll be over before you know it.

I am quite pissed off about the increased police presence in Sebastopol right now. And let me explain why. First, I don’t have to be in town for more than 15 minutes to see anywhere from 2-4 different policeman pulling people over. Are all these people doing things that warrant getting pulled over? Probably, not. We all know what kind of traffic offenses warrant getting pulled over and which ones are totally ridiculous.

Next, if there are that many cars rolling through town which is substantially higher than the inhabitants in the town, then why does the accident record point to the way people drive and not to the amount of cars on the road?

This then leads to the layout of the town which is the true culprit for this dismal driving record. For starters, there should not be any parking in the town square. Not only would that simple change contribute to more people on foot in town, it will also promote a more community feeling in the downtown area. Which anyone here will tell you is lacking, except at whole foods of course.

And now that I am on the subject, what about the layout of the town? Does it really work? Are we happy with this kind of congestion on a daily basis? Why isn’t this a major issue addressed by our local elected officials?

At any rate, it is simply unfair to treat the town of Sebastopol and it’s surrounding community like it is all our fault that these accidents seem to be happening.

Any thoughts?

These comments are related to the article below:
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showt...+law+violators

[Dixon]

I don’t have to be in town for more than 15 minutes to see anywhere from 2-4 different policeman pulling people over. Are all these people doing things that warrant getting pulled over?

Well, as Alexandra points out in post #2 on this thread, there are cases where the cop goes a bit overboard. But I can easily believe that nearly everyone you see pulled over richly deserved it, and I'd love to see 100 times as many drivers get ticketed for doing the kinds of inconsiderate and dangerous things I see drivers do pretty much routinely nowadays.

For instance, nowadays it seems to be the rule rather than the exception for drivers to run red lights. Whenever I go through a light that's about to turn red, I look into my rearview mirror and almost always observe at least one, sometimes two or three cars run the light behind me. Even though an accident usually doesn't result, it's still a problem, because running the red light takes away the right-of-way from those going the other way, and that's needlessly disrespectful, a slap in the face to those the light-runners are barging in front of. Such behavior frays the social fabric, eroding civility; it's a sign of a declining society.

Here's another example: Have you noticed that when the light turns green, lots of left turners immediately turn in front of the oncoming traffic rather than yielding right-of-way? Again, dangerous and disrespectful driving--a slap in the face to those they're cutting off.

Or how about the drooling dipshits who, when merging lanes, instead of sliding considerately into the back of the line of cars, drive as far to the front as they can get, in front of cars that were there before them, and then barge into the lane, taking away the others' right-of-way. Once again, dangerous and inconsiderate.

I could go on and on with such examples, which I see many times a week. I hope some of you who are reading my words are among those who drive like that, so I can tell you this: I would LOVE for you to get as many tickets as it takes to put enough fear into you to make you drive more considerately, since apparently your consideration for the rights and safety of others is insufficient to make you behave decently. Better yet, I'd love for you to lose your licenses entirely. There's just no excuse for the kind of self-centered, inconsiderate barbarousness I see daily on our streets.

This then leads to the layout of the town which is the true culprit for this dismal driving record.

Not true. The layout of the town does not cause anyone to drive in the terrible, reckless ways I've described. They do it because they lack responsibility and consideration for others, and because they're too hyped up to wait their turn. No way can you blame that on the town's layout.

At any rate, it is simply unfair to treat the town of Sebastopol and it’s surrounding community like it is all our fault that these accidents seem to be happening.

Some of your ideas for changing the town layout may indeed be good ones. Nevertheless, we cannot blame car accidents (or tickets) on the town layout. With very rare exceptions, drivers have accidents because someone drove like an asshole. I say let's get a hundred cops out there giving out tickets like confetti (as long as they're giving them out to the drivers who are really screwing up, of which there are plenty)!

[podfish]

Here's another example: Have you noticed that when the light turns green, lots of left turners immediately turn in front of the oncoming traffic rather than yielding right-of-way? Again, dangerous and disrespectful driving--a slap in the face to those they're cutting off

.. or maybe a regional difference. That's an urban style of driving you see back east, especially in Philly. It actually makes a lot of sense, too. Otherwise, left-turners queue up in the intersection and if there's any incipient gridlock they'll be trapped there. This gets more people flowing through city centers. Like so many driving things, it's in the eye of the beholder and in the informally communicated customs

.Or how about the drooling dipshits who, when merging lanes, instead of sliding considerately into the back of the line of cars, drive as far to the front as they can get, in front of cars that were there before them, and then barge into the lane, taking away the others' right-of-way. Once again, dangerous and inconsiderate.

Carlin's idiots and morons again, I guess. There's a reason the road engineers put all those lanes there; there shouldn't be empty pavement when the roadway's full. Fill the lanes, alternate right/left like a zipper at the END of the lanes, and it all moves best. It does nothing but cause confusion when each individual decides that "hey, HERE'S a good spot for me to move over!"; they stop and bottle it up behind them, leaving a bunch of unused roadway in front of them that someone paid millions of dollars to build.
When you leave the house with Aunt Marge, you stop and wait politely holding the door. When you're near the front of the line at the market, though, instead of waving her ahead, most people would just wave 'hi' as she goes to the end of the queue. Driving rules are different than social ones and it works best to just pay attention and follow them.

[Dixon]

That's an urban style of driving you see back east, especially in Philly. It actually makes a lot of sense, too. Otherwise, left-turners queue up in the intersection and if there's any incipient gridlock they'll be trapped there. This gets more people flowing through city centers.

What you say is plausible, podfish, but I'm still uncomfortable with people's failing to yield right-of-way. That's a slippery slope that tends to extend to situations wherein it's not remotely justifiable (such as in Sebastopol, where the volume of traffic would rarely if ever justify the strategy you describe). When I'm turning left in those big-city situations, I accept that I may be stuck there over the course of a light-change or two. If I'm in the front of the left turn lane, I nose out into the intersection (without blocking traffic, of course) and wait until the oncoming traffic has stopped for the impending light change, then take my left turn quickly. Of course, if the oncoming traffic is running the red light, they leave me stuck in the intersection, not being able to turn until after the light change, which means I've taken away the right-of-way of those coming from the other direction! There's no good solution in those situations, except that often I plan my route to avoid the thornier left-turn situations. Of course, less population and more public transportation would solve the problem.

Like so many driving things, it's in the eye of the beholder and in the informally communicated customs.

Podfish, could you give a couple more examples of driving things that are "in the eye of the beholder"? I'm skeptical about there being many. It seems to me that the issue of what practices are safe and considerate and which ones are not is a matter of objective fact, based on the laws of physics and the Golden Rule, rather than subjective "eye of the beholder" choices. Of course, whether a society decides that driving will be on the right or left side of the road is arbitrary, but once that arbitrary decision is made, the fact that one should follow the rule is not.

There's a reason the road engineers put all those lanes there; there shouldn't be empty pavement when the roadway's full.

Well, except that there should always be more empty pavement than car-filled pavement, at least if the traffic's going 10 mph or more, so as to leave sufficient stopping-space between cars--something most folks, being unclear on basic physics, seem unable to do consistently. If traffic is flowing at, say, 40 or 50 mph or more, there should be LOTS more empty space than car-filled space. Did I mention that tailgaters don't die young nearly often enough?

[podfish]

What you say is plausible, podfish, but I'm still uncomfortable with people's failing to yield right-of-way.

I'm not suggesting that style of driving here! And when I'm in those parts of the world, I won't usually do it myself - exactly because those are local customs which I don't really understand. It's actually a fun part of driving, though, and part of why it takes more attention than most people usually pay. Most of the time, a hesitant Californian who refuses to take his turn to quickly go left doesn't cause much problem; certainly less than if I turn left in front of someone when it isn't expected.

Podfish, could you give a couple more examples of driving things that are "in the eye of the beholder"? I'm skeptical about there being many.

Sure. Some people try to be what they consider courteous by refusing to take their right-of-way. This is a specific case of what I mention above, where the right-of-way is customary rather than (AFAIK, anyway) legally mandated. For example, there's a new Safeway in Novato, near Ignatio, with a ton of driveways and very close traffic signals. So here's the situation: there's a traffic light with a queue of cars, backing up quite a ways. There's a side-street coming in which would inject cars about two car lengths back from the light. Someone who's been waiting for the light for a while, when they see the light change, doesn't go forward - instead, they wait for the person on the right to merge right in. This sounds nice, and is a friendly gesture IF there's light traffic. But other times, that gesture causes backups to push into the lights and intersections well behind them, causing gridlock and confusion. If instead they just move ahead closely following the car in front, they let the traffic flow as the traffic engineers designed. And in this case they did their job pretty well; the lights behind this clog will stay red for a bit, allowing this particular cluster of cars to clear the roadway and not incidentally providing an opportunity for people to come in AFTER them from the road on the right. The carrying capacity of a very crowded section of road is being cut down by quite a bit.

[Dixon]

Some people try to be what they consider courteous by refusing to take their right-of-way. This is a specific case of what I mention above, where the right-of-way is customary rather than (AFAIK, anyway) legally mandated. For example, there's a new Safeway in Novato, near Ignatio, with a ton of driveways and very close traffic signals. So here's the situation: there's a traffic light with a queue of cars, backing up quite a ways. There's a side-street coming in which would inject cars about two car lengths back from the light. Someone who's been waiting for the light for a while, when they see the light change, doesn't go forward - instead, they wait for the person on the right to merge right in. This sounds nice, and is a friendly gesture IF there's light traffic. But other times, that gesture causes backups to push into the lights and intersections well behind them, causing gridlock and confusion. If instead they just move ahead closely following the car in front, they let the traffic flow as the traffic engineers designed. And in this case they did their job pretty well; the lights behind this clog will stay red for a bit, allowing this particular cluster of cars to clear the roadway and not incidentally providing an opportunity for people to come in AFTER them from the road on the right. The carrying capacity of a very crowded section of road is being cut down by quite a bit.

Podfish, thanks for taking the time to describe a complicated example. Note that it's not an example of driving decisions appropriately being "in the eye of the beholder"--quite the contrary. In fact, your example illustrates what I'm saying; that there are objective realities, having to do with traffic flow, which appropriately trump anybody's subjective, "eye of the beholder" preferences, and that thus, good driving in this situation consists in following the right-of-way rules rather than abrogating them, even to be nice. (Ironically, I'm one of those misguided individuals who would likely, in this situation, not being clear on all the factors, do the "nice" thing and let the other guy go before me--LOL!)