Whooping cough cases soar in Sonoma County; Anti-vaccination crowd = murderers?

[Peace Voyager]

One more thing, an obscene amount of our tax money
went to the H1N1 synthetic pandemic folly.

I'd bet it was enough to give every single American complete health & dental care for at least a year.

Did not fall for it, or get it.

I now can attest to the healing power of mushrooms. Great results from New Chapter's My Community, or Fungi Perfetci brand Stamets 7 general immune support. These blends are known to defend you from viruses, harmful bacteria, and even cancer.

If you have the chance to hear Paul Staments, or read his work, please do so - he is a wizard on the wonders of mushrooms for human and planetary health.

New Chapter has another blend for mental clarity - really like that too.

Harnessing nature to work for us seems so much more logical.


The recent whooping cough thing has me a bit concerned about germ warfare. Just what is in the man-made clouds happening almost everyday here for the last 9 months? Could we be a target or a test?

Don't be quick to dismiss - it's a sad fact that this country has used some of its citizens as test cases for nasty things without their consent.

[RussianRiverRattina]

The problem with people not choosing to vaccinate themselves or their children is that their increasing numbers have caused formerly-eradicated diseases like whooping cough to return. Children and adults can survive a bout of whooping cough, but the risk of mortality for infants is considerably higher. Five infants in California have already died this year from whooping cough -- an inexcusable tragedy considering that this disease is entirely preventable.

I find it highly ironic that the U.S. increasingly resembles a third world country, thanks to the combined efforts of such unlikely bedfellows as the anti-vaccination crowd and the conservative free-marketeers.

[HolisticKids]

Jeff, do you have any idea how fanatical you sound with your “the anti-vaccine crowd are murderers” stance? In all these years I’ve been following this issue, I come to see the vaccine program as a sort of religious dogma. Anyone who tries to question the almighty vaccines – God’s greatest gift to humanity - is made out to be some type of “crackpot” and dangerous to society. What’s up with that? What’s this incessant fear of disease that causes people to become irrational and fanatical?

Rigorous, long-term, double-blind, placebo-based controlled trials that are the “gold standard” in other medical areas are generally missing from vaccine science. Sure you can find tons of studies that come to the conclusion that vaccines are safe and effective, but if you delve deeply into many of these studies you find problems. Many are methodologically flawed studies funded by vaccine manufacturers. A major flaw is that the so-called placebos used in vaccine trials are other vaccines. Or, as in the case of the HPV vaccine, they used a potentially reactive aluminum containing placebo as a control for most trial participants, rather than a non-reactive saline solution placebo. This can artificially increase the appearance of safety. How is that good science? Long-term studies are not done and no adequate studies have ever been done on the real-world risk; the cumulative effect of multiple doses of numerous vaccines given in the first 5 years of life – a critical period for brain and immune development.

I’ve been extensively looking into the safety of vaccines for the past 15 years. I was at a conference in DC last October where many credible scientists and medical doctors came together to openly discuss the lack of good vaccine science and what to do to about it. Vaccine safety advocates are calling for reliable scientific investigation into vaccine related neuroimmune dysfunction. It’s a hopeful sign that the CDC is setting up committees and looking into studying the health impact of the immunization schedule, potentially through a vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study. Bottom line is that the jury is still out on safety of vaccines. Let’s ask this question. What’s wrong with making sure we have the best science possible when it comes to injecting foreign and toxic substances into the bloodstreams of tiny developing babies and doing this multiple times throughout this crucial period of brain and immune development?

Please don’t be so quick to judge people who are openly trying to make disease prevention safer for everyone’s children. Babies do die and become immune and brain damaged from vaccines. That’s a fact that’s not denied even by the government and the vaccine manufacturers. It’s a risk we’re “supposed” to take. That’s why there’s a government billion dollar vaccine compensation fund that’s been paid out.

I’ve talked to several MD pediatricians who know there are safety issues with vaccines, they don’t vaccinate their own kids but are literally forced into towing the line on vaccines and injecting them into other people’s kids. Pediatricians are up against major repercussions if they speak out against vaccines.

It’s believed that some children are biologically at greater risk than others for suffering vaccine reactions. But there are currently no tests in place to know which children will suffer reactions. According to the vaccine zealots we’re supposed to take the risk and if our child is damaged, well we have to live with that. Our child is collateral damage in the war against disease. Sacrifice your child for the good of all. But is it really for the good of all? What if we’re meant to live with these diseases and it’s part of a child’s immune development to be exposed to them? What about all the increased chronic diseases and immune dysfunction that kids are dealing with now? This really needs to be looked at.

You talk about how non-vaccinators are responsible for harming other kids. What worries me are the vaccine zealots who are bullying parents into making a medical decision that goes against the outcome of their investigation and their gut instincts. What if you were successful in shaming a parent into vaccinating their baby anyway? And that baby died or had a serious reaction that permanently damaged them? Would you consider yourself responsible? What right do you have to tell someone how they should make a personal medical decision? To inject foreign material into their baby’s body?

We mothers have a powerful intuitive instinct when it comes to our children. I’ve talked with literally hundreds of mothers over the years who believe their children have been damaged by vaccines who said in retrospect they knew in their gut not to vaccinate their child but they allowed it because of the extreme pressure to vaccinate. Injecting substances into the human body that are known in some cases to cause injury or death should be a decision for each individual to make. Informed consent is another gold standard in every area of the medical system except for vaccination. With vaccines it’s “Just do it, it’s safe and effective.” Well what if it’s not?

I've been doing exploration into health and healing for half my life and there’s one thing I've observed to be true - that there is mystery to the human body that the current scientific processes and tools cannot grasp. There are many underlying factors going on when it comes to who gets a disease and who stays healthy. The medical system tries to simplify it by saying inject the vaccine and that equals immunity. Well it's not so black and white. It doesn't always equal immunity and in the case of the whooping cough vaccine (which was where this whole discussion started),
there are many, many times that it simply doesn't work.

Jane

The term that keeps coming to mind is accessory to murder. That's really what the anti-vaccination crowd is guilty of. Infanticide is a pretty horrible crime. Imagine if you murdered your own or your neighbor's child based on intentional ignorance and misinformation.

Whooping Cough Epidemic in California: Lax Vaccination May Be to Blame - ABC News

-Jeff

[elienos]

I'll give one example to demonstrate how short sighted this point of view is: tens of millions of native indians died after the early European invasions of the Americas. Had they been inoculated against childhood diseases, that wouldn't have happened. That only happens with individuals nowadays, but leave out widespread vaccination programs and you'll begin to see thousands and tens of thousands dying needlessly every year.

................

BTW, get over the mercury thing. There is no evidence that anyone has ever been harmed by mercury in a vaccine. Don't give me a list of links from crackpot websites because I won't read them. I've done it before and they're all bogus. It's all crap by people selling their nonsense books. Get over it. Thimerosal is safe, effective and cheap. There is a reason they use it. BTW, it's not found in childhood vaccines, so don't tell me about putting mercury in kids. That's not happening even though it's been found safe.

The above arguments are interesting to me. The Europeans were not inoculated against childhood diseases. They had developed natural immunity. HERD immunity? I don't know, I was never vaccinated and I am the most healthy person I know. I never get sick. I think I had the flu when I was 10. I am 34 now. I even have a kid in preschool bringing home everything. For the record, my daughter has had some vaccinations, and we have passed on others. Nothing for the past 1.5 years.

And about mercury, yes, it is damaging. Maybe one shot doesn't do much, but it never leaves your body and builds up your entire life. That's why we are asked to limit our mercury containing fish diet. And I do think it is more damaging to babies than adults. To me it is just common sense. To say something that is proven toxic isn't harmful to shoot into your body just because you are only using a tiny amount is silly. They have now linked pesticides with ADD, the tiny amount doesn't do anything...but many toxins just camp out in your body FOREVER! There is a point your body just says NO MORE! Ususally when you are older and dying of cancer or something.

McDonalds is a much bigger health risk than people who aren't vaccinating.

In fact, people who vaccinate against Chicken Pox are creating health problems for older folks as well as unvaccinated children. Since the vaccine has started, shingles cases in young adults and unvaccinated children has increased. This is the destruction of herd immunity. If you aren't exposed to the disease for many years, your natural immunity subsides. The people who vaccinate just opt for a lifetime of booster shots to curb this problem. PR says that studies show the vaccine protects children from shingles, they hide the fact that shigles cases have exploded in the last decade since the invention of this vaccine.

21 shots in the first 2 years INSANE! It was only 8 when I was a kid.

[HolisticKids]

This is a common theory that's been around for decades. But is it true? Where's the data that backs this up? I asked several pediatricians who continually make this claim to tell me what they have to back up this statement. None of them could give me a good answer. One pediatrician said "It's more hyperbole and fear than scientific backing".

The whole notion of herd immunity came from a researcher in the 1930s studying NATURAL immunity in cattle. It has nothing to do with vaccines. It's simply an extrapolated idea, which has no relevance or science in vaccines, and does not take into consideration the life cycle of the disease. Japan has a different vaccine schedule. They don't even use HIB or PCV7 vaccine and there are no major problems with these illnesses in Japan.

Whooping cough is not a formerly eradicated disease. They've not been able to eradicate whooping cough because the vaccine is not effective, the strains keep mutating. They've been trying to get this vaccine right for decades and it keeps failing. You are wrong in saying this disease is entirely preventable. And it's not been shown that the increasing numbers are caused by unvacinated children. It's more likely that it's being passed around by unhealthy adults.

The big question here is were these 5 infants breastfed? That's the best prevention against whooping cough that there is. Breastmilk is better prevention than the pertussis vaccine.

Jane

The problem with people not choosing to vaccinate themselves or their children is that their increasing numbers have caused formerly-eradicated diseases like whooping cough to return. Children and adults can survive a bout of whooping cough, but the risk of mortality for infants is considerably higher. Five infants in California have already died this year from whooping cough -- an inexcusable tragedy considering that this disease is entirely preventable.

I find it highly ironic that the U.S. increasingly resembles a third world country, thanks to the combined efforts of such unlikely bedfellows as the anti-vaccination crowd and the conservative free-marketeers.

[Braggi]

The above arguments are interesting to me. The Europeans were not inoculated against childhood diseases. They had developed natural immunity. HERD immunity? I don't know ...

Your last statement there was the correct one. Europeans in that age were dying and becoming physically and mentally crippled at a horrendous rate do to illnesses that have all but disappeared from the landscape due to mass inoculations. The reason you don't have a mental image of that time is because you never lived in a time when every breeze carried the possibility of polio. It was a time of great fear and for good reason. We have it too easy nowadays so we can afford to demonize vaccinations. Yes, the Europeans had more natural immunity than the indians, but illness still took its toll among the Europeans in a way we can't even imagine.

... And about mercury, yes, it is damaging. Maybe one shot doesn't do much, but it never leaves your body and builds up your entire life. That's why we are asked to limit our mercury containing fish diet. And I do think it is more damaging to babies than adults. To me it is just common sense. To say something that is proven toxic isn't harmful to shoot into your body just because you are only using a tiny amount is silly. ...

And about chlorine, yes, it is damaging. Maybe one little puff wouldn't cause a lifetime of distress, but a few lungs full and you'll be dead. And one little speck of sodium on your tongue will only make a pop, but a piece the size of a pea will explode your head. These are extremely dangerous substances and I wouldn't recommend injections of either one. However, put them together and you get a nice condiment that goes well on some fried eggs, and is, in fact, necessary for life.

There is also a comparison between the mercury you find in fish, thanks to the coal industry, and the mercury you find in Thimerosal. The former is methylmercury [CH3Hg], and is the most toxic form. I suggest you read up on it. Mercury in the Environment.

The mercury compound used in Thimerosal (which is used in the injectable flu vaccine but not in typical childhood vaccines or in the nasal spray flu vaccine) breaks down in the body to ethyl mercury (C2H5Hg+) which is much less toxic and is more easily cleared by the body's natural and highly effective detoxifying systems. No friends, you don't need "chelation" to clear mercury from your childhood vaccines. It was gone a month after you got them and it most likely did you no harm in that time.

The amount of mercury in a children's flu vaccine is under one microgram.

If you really want to learn about Thimerosal here's a site with real information: Thimerosal in Vaccines Questions and Answers

The whole question of mercury in vaccines is a case of ignorance not being bliss. A whole lot of people worry about it because they are comparing the wrong compounds as well as the wrong amounts. Anytime someone starts comparing mercury contamination in fish it's clear they don't know what Thimerosal is.

So let's compare the amount of mercury in tuna with the amount in a child's flu vaccine, but let's remember we're really comparing two different compounds and the form of mercury in tuna is more than twice as dangerous by weight.

Flu vaccine contains equal to or below one microgram of mercury in a form that is easily eliminated by the body. The vaccines that contain the most Thimerosal contain around 25 micrograms, but those aren't given to children.

One six ounce can of chunk light tuna contains (are you ready?): 52.7 micrograms per gram, or a whopping 8,959 micrograms in the six ounce can.

I rest my case.

-Jeff

NOW. Science & Health. Mercury in Fish | PBS

[Braggi]

... You are wrong in saying this disease is entirely preventable. And it's not been shown that the increasing numbers are caused by unvacinated children. It's more likely that it's being passed around by unhealthy adults.

The big question here is were these 5 infants breastfed? That's the best prevention against whooping cough that there is. Breastmilk is better prevention than the pertussis vaccine.

And I do take breastmilk whenever I can get it, though that's pretty rare these days.

I agree with what you're saying, but, the best preventative available to most of us is the vaccine, though I would appreciate more breast milk myself.

-Jeff

[elienos]

Your last statement there was the correct one. Europeans in that age were dying and becoming physically and mentally crippled at a horrendous rate do to illnesses that have all but disappeared from the landscape due to mass inoculations. The reason you don't have a mental image of that time is because you never lived in a time when every breeze carried the possibility of polio. It was a time of great fear and for good reason. We have it too easy nowadays so we can afford to demonize vaccinations. Yes, the Europeans had more natural immunity than the indians, but illness still took its toll among the Europeans in a way we can't even imagine.

I agree, my point was that vaccines have not been the sole savior nor the sole reason for illness reduction. I think vaccinations have helped in some cases, I also think that some vaccinations have had adverse in others. Humans are not as smart as they think they are and I also I question that pharma companies always have our best interests in mind. Like I said, shingles, a disease with 3-5x the mortality rate, has been on the rise since the chickenpox vaccine has been introduced. And what is the solutions that is being proposed by "professionals" to this problem? A lifetime of vaccines for a disease that had a low mortality rate anyway. The medical industry has gone overboard with vaccinating. Now there is a backlash of people COMPLETELY dropping out.

I am not an expert on every type of vaccine, nor do I want to be, but there are more examples. When our society really decides to start taking care of all the lives it supposedly saves, then I will start to believe our institutions have our best interests in mind.

Mercury has not been the reason I have chosen not to use certain vaccinations. But I do think it is reasonable that people don't want to put toxic substances in their bodies or the bodies of their children. I think it is reasonable that parents don't want to stick 21 needles full of weird crap into their babies.

[HolisticKids]

I think most of us baby boomers are starving for the mother's milk we never got, but that's a whole other discussion! :-)

And I do take breastmilk whenever I can get it, though that's pretty rare these days.

I agree with what you're saying, but, the best preventative available to most of us is the vaccine, though I would appreciate more breast milk myself.

-Jeff

[HolisticKids]

I get pretty frustrated when I see the whole vaccine issue being reduced to the issue of mercury and autism. I don't think we should be injecting any form of mercury in any amount into a developing baby's body. And it's clear to me that the vaccine/autism issue has not been resolved. But that's not the only issue with vaccines!!!

When I and many others decided to refuse vaccines 15 or 20 years ago, mercury and autism didn't even play into the decision. No one was talking about autism and mercury at that time. But it's become a major distraction from many of the deeper issues of vaccines. And people simplify it and say the vaccine/autism issue has been debunked (not true!) and mercury is taken out of childhood vaccines so vaccines are safe, end of story. Well, sorry it's not.

Jane

The whole question of mercury in vaccines is a case of ignorance not being bliss. A whole lot of people worry about it because they are comparing the wrong compounds as well as the wrong amounts. Anytime someone starts comparing mercury contamination in fish it's clear they don't know what Thimerosal is.

[Braggi]

I get pretty frustrated when I see the whole vaccine issue being reduced to the issue of mercury and autism. I don't think we should be injecting any form of mercury in any amount into a developing baby's body. And it's clear to me that the vaccine/autism issue has not been resolved. But that's not the only issue with vaccines!!! ...

Actually, it has been resolved, in fact, there never was a controversy. The original data was faked by a now deposed self-appointed kingpin of lies and nonsense so he could sell books and build his own ego based on the deaths of children. What a vile and disgusting human being. His "research" (Gods do I use that term loosely) was never verified because it was faked.

In fact, there has been NO rise in the rates of autism The whole issue is made up. I thought that's been posted and discussed in these forums already. Nearly every kid that at one time would have been diagnosed "mentally retarded" is now put on the "autism spectrum" chart. There has been no increase. We've just shifted kids from one category to another because the benefits are better there and the stigma less. Far better to be called "autistic" than MR or just plain stupid. Them's the facts. The research shows it.

I agree we shouldn't HAVE TO discuss it, but there are so many falsehoods proposed as fact going around the internet it's like trying to kill ants with a hammer putting out the lies and getting the facts out.

Where's my breast milk?

-Jeff

[Barry]

Your last statement there was the correct one. Europeans in that age were dying and becoming physically and mentally crippled at a horrendous rate do to illnesses that have all but disappeared from the landscape due to mass inoculations. The reason you don't have a mental image of that time is because you never lived in a time when every breeze carried the possibility of polio. ...

The use of vaccines occurred around the same time as a dramatic increase in the quality of sanitation systems. Check out Hygiene, Sanitation, Immunization, and Pestilential Diseases. I have included the charts of pertussis and polio death rates here.The vaccines appear to not have any effect. The diseases were already in rapid decline!


Chart :1 Pertussis death rate from 1900 to 1935.
The graph shows the pertussis death rate had decreased by more than 75 percent before the vaccine was introduced. This graph is adopted from Neil Z. Miller's monograph, Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?[5])

Chart 2: Polio death rate from 1923 to 1953.
The graph shows the polio death rate was actually decreasing before vaccines were introduced. This graph is adopted from Neil Z. Miller's monograph, Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?[5])

[5]. Miller NZ. Vaccines - Are They Really Safe and Effective? Santa Fe, NM, New Atlantean Press, 1992, pp.17-35. ThinkTwice Global Vaccine Institute: Avoid Vaccine Reactions. See also Mendelsohn R. How To Raise A Healthy ChildIn Spite of Your Doctor. Chicago, IL., Contemporary Books, 1984, pp. 216, 219, 228; Alderson M. International Mortality Statistics. Washington, DC, Facts on File, 1981, pp. 82-83, 164-165, 177-178 ; Cherry J. The new epidemiology of measles and rubella. Hospital Practice, July 1980, p.49; and Moskowitz R. Immunizations: the other side. Mothering, Spring 1984, p. 36.

[Barry]

Jeff, please contact me. Your email is bouncing.
Barry

[elienos]

Just wanted to add that, when Europeans were coming to this country it is amazing that they had any resistance at all to the diseases that were an accessory to indigenous murder considering the horrible nutrition that many Europeans had. Nutrition is one factor that has always often been the difference between illness and not.

["Mad" Miles]

When 'ol Cristobal et al started showing up to rape, torture, vivisect, enslave, murder and plunder, primarily for gold and souls for Jesus, the diseases they bore, and had developed some immunity to back home, Smallpox, Cholera, etc. wiped out native populations to the tune of sometimes fifty to eighty percent, or even more. (My vague memory, check Jared Diamond or Howard Zinn for the stats.)

This was unintentional genocide. The wholesale massacres with bladed weapons, firearms and artillery that followed, were, obviously, intentional.

The survivors, mostly young people, were in a state of shock with their entire society and culture nearly wiped out. This made conquest a much easier matter for the invading Europeans. Not saying this happened everywhere, but it happened lots of places in the Western hemisphere.

In return Europe got corn, tobacco, gold and in at least one case of ironic justice, Syphilis!

(Although my web search to find proof of this last claim only came up with partial substantiation.)

[Sciguy]

The chemist community has never forgotten this isolated but fear inspiring case which I copy from an OSHA report on the web:

Case Report

The exposure occurred when, during a transfer to another container, one to several drops of dimethylmercury were spilled on the back of the researcher's gloved left hand. The transfer was conducted under a fume hood and the researcher was wearing disposable latex gloves. Five months later the researcher experienced progressive difficulty characterized by numbness and tingling in both lower extremities, along with difficulty in vision, walking, speaking, and hearing. When informed that her symptoms were due to mercury poisoning, the spill incident was recalled and she indicated that she had removed the gloves promptly and did not think any more about the incident. As a result, no medical monitoring or other follow-up was done until the diagnosis five months after the exposure.

Full diagnostic evaluation identified organometallic toxicity as a result of exposure to dimethylmercury as the cause. Hair analysis for mercury was consistent with a single or short exposure, such as the reported spill, and peaked at 54 days post exposure followed by subsequent slow decline in mercury levels. Mercury levels in hair are reflective of blood mercury levels at the time the hair was formed. Therefore, analysis of the levels versus time (hair length where sample was taken) can give a history of mercury exposure prior to when the problem was recognized. The mercury level in the urine was 234 µg/L; blood mercury level was 4,000 µg/L five months after the exposure (background levels in unexposed populations are 4-5 µg/L and 1-8 µg/L respectively). Despite aggressive chelation treatment, the patient went into a coma and died 10 months after exposure. Diagnosis at the time of death was encephalopathy as a result of mercury intoxication. The gloves used in this incident were disposable latex examination gloves and subsequent permeation testing of the gloves by a certified, independent testing laboratory indicated that the chemical permeates latex, PVC, and neoprene almost instantaneously.

In keeping with other reported cases, the delayed onset of symptoms is not completely understood, although the intense lipophilia of the compound may play a role. Estimates regarding the amount of exposure ranged from "one to several drops".

On the other hand, as a child, like so many others, I played with liquid mercury many times, rubbing it onto dimes (silver based in those days) and marveling at the way that it made them shine. The liquid mercury was on my hands and who knows where else it went.

Two vastly different exposures with two vastly different outcomes.

The point is this: mercury is not just "A POISON" end of discussion. It depends on the chemical form, the ingestion route, the amounts and much more. If reputable scientists do analytic work on a very tiny concentration of a suspect preservative toxin and find that it has no discernible effect, then it probably has no discernible effect in reality.

I agree with Jeff that if those scientists are suborned by industrial money or commercial profit, their results are in doubt. The world of vaccines is not dominated by gap toothed drooling scientists who will whore for cash. No one is perfectly objective but I do trust the result and vaccinated my children and still vaccinate myself as needed.

When people who refuse to accept vaccination are called murderers it seems clear what the motivation is and it has nothing to do with mercury paranoia. It is a statement that they are providing a reservoir for the pertussis bacillus which will lead to more widespread infection and inevitable death of other people's children. The shorthand for that idea is "murder". You should not read more into it than that. No one is equating it to shooting random children, but the outcome is unfortunately similar.

Sciguy

Jeff,

One person's "science" is another person's "snake oil". Unless you know who paid for the "science", and under what terms and conditions they did their work, you will never know just how valid it is.

The fact you are convinced that a known poison like mercury is safe to be ingested, convinces me you lack good judgement; and thus not a source to trust for unbiased analysis.

The negative energy around many of your comments, and your perceptions of folks who choose differently as "murderers", must be rather hard to live with.

May peace be with you.

[Sylph]

Barry posted a graph which purports to show that rates of death from polio and pertussis were falling well before the vaccines were introduced. The measure that should be shown on the graph is incidence of disease. Then, you will see dramatic and undeniable proof of the effectiveness of vaccines. CDC National Vaccine Program Office: The Effectiveness of Immunizations
The reason that deaths from polio decreased before the vaccine is that medical technology had improved, and iron lungs kept polio victims alive.
I just took care of an elderly woman with post-polio syndrome, who had fallen and injured herself due to the weakness on one side of her body. Polio caused massive incidences of paralysis and injury over the years that are still causing havoc in people's lives.

[elienos]

When people who refuse to accept vaccination are called murderers it seems clear what the motivation is and it has nothing to do with mercury paranoia. It is a statement that they are providing a reservoir for the pertussis bacillus which will lead to more widespread infection and inevitable death of other people's children. The shorthand for that idea is "murder". You should not read more into it than that. No one is equating it to shooting random children, but the outcome is unfortunately similar.

Sciguy

Almost everyone on here is a murderer under this reasoning, since we all, in one form or another, support the war machine and destruction of entire cultures as we fail to refuse to take part in it's systems since that would be inconvenient to us. So yes, take the reference to "murderer" as a grain of salt. Also, everyone who has vaccinated against chicken pox is again a murderer since the rate of the more deadly shingles has risen as a direct result. You are all MURDERERS!

[elienos]

Does anyone have the death rates of children by these diseases in Sebastopol, Forestville, Russian River? These have by far the highest non-vaccinated number of children, at least by school. I am wondering if they are higher.

And while we are talking about polio, here is a excerpt to a problem that we haven't really been talking about-mutations. This goes for other vaccinations like the flu, the creation of new viruses. this is a great report. www.thinktwice.com/Polio.pdf

In December 2000, researchers reported on a polio outbreak in Haiti and the Dominican Republic that resulted in numerous cases of flaccid paralysis [173]. Laboratory examinations confirmed health authorities’ worst suspicions: the disease was caused by “an unusual viral derivative” of the polio vaccine. The virus demon-strates genetic similarity to the parent vaccine strain, “but it has assumed the neurovirulence and transmissibility” of the wild polio virus [173]. Health officials are obviously concerned, “because a wild poliovirus has not circulated in the Western Hemisphere since 1991,” and if the newly mutated polio virus spreads, it could cause new epidemics of the disease (Figure 8) [173].
Figure 8. Polio eradication with vaccines: a vicious cycle?
The wild polio virus brought about the development of polio vaccines, which spawned mutations of the polio virus, resulting in new “vaccine-derived” wild polio viruses. Source: Virology 1993; 196:199-208; Lancet (October 28, 2000); Reuters Medical News (December 4, 2000)

[Sylph]

Marin County, High Rates of Pertussis. Richest and poorest counties hit with pertussis:
'Personal belief' vaccine waivers drive whooping cough cases in Marin County | California Watch

[Sylph]

The victims of the polio outbreak in the Dominican Republic and Haiti were unvaccinated or undervaccinated.
Public Health Dispatch: Outbreak of Poliomyelitis --- Dominican Republic and Haiti, 2000
Unfortunately, oral polio vaccine can cause polio when the population is undervaccinated. This happened more recently in Nigeria. Nigerian officials thought the vaccine was a Western plot to sterilize the populace. The oral vaccine is much cheaper than the injected form, thus used in poor countries.
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21149823/

[photolite]

Most human diseases originated with birds and animals. Europeans spent centuries practicing animal husbandry with animals and poultry living and sleeping in their homes. This provided a unique opportunity to develop immunities over a very long period of time to those who survived initial outbreaks of animal borne diseases and many of these immunities were passed on genetically, even though the Europeans may have become carriers themselves. This is very different than "herd immunity". Upon arriving in the Americas (and other far flung places), European explorers infected vast numbers of Natives who had never had any exposure to these animals or the diseases now hosted by the Europeans. By some estimates, in North America, as much as 90% of indigenous peoples were wiped out within a very short time after initial contact.

[quote]

The above arguments are interesting to me. The Europeans were not inoculated against childhood diseases. They had developed natural immunity. HERD immunity?

McDonald's poses health risk only to those who may choose to patronize them. Disease carriers may pose great threat to any they come into casual contact with. Big difference.

McDonalds is a much bigger health risk than people who aren't vaccinating.

[RussianRiverRattina]

"Murderer" does seem like too strong of a word ... unless you're the parents of the five babies who died this year after being exposed to someone with whooping cough.

[elienos]

"Murderer" does seem like too strong of a word ... unless you're the parents of the five babies who died this year after being exposed to someone with whooping cough.

Adults need boosters in order not to get and carry the disease. Most adult cases are not even diagnosed. If you are thinking that unvaccinated kids are the reason for the outbreak you are really short sited.

Doctors now believe immunity from childhood vaccinations wears off over time, and that adolescents and adults have been unwittingly spreading the disease.

Read more: Medical debate: Should seniors get booster shot against whooping cough? - Medical News - sacbee.com

Now just for the record, my child is vaccinated against this disease, I just feel like some of the pro vaccine fear-mongers are really getting out of hand, almost fascist. You can't even go to the Clinic in Petaluma and even question a vaccine without someone spouting offbeing treated like crap. No way to solve anything Truth is adults need a lifetime of boosters if we are to try to eradicate the whooping cough. I bet there are many times more adults carrying the disease than children.

[RussianRiverRattina]

Sigh. Many of these adults have no health insurance & won't be getting booster shots any time soon.

Adults need boosters in order not to get and carry the disease. Most adult cases are not even diagnosed. If you are thinking that unvaccinated kids are the reason for the outbreak you are really short sited.

Doctors now believe immunity from childhood vaccinations wears off over time, and that adolescents and adults have been unwittingly spreading the disease.

Read more: Medical debate: Should seniors get booster shot against whooping cough? - Medical News - sacbee.com

Now just for the record, my child is vaccinated against this disease, I just feel like some of the pro vaccine fear-mongers are really getting out of hand, almost fascist. You can't even go to the Clinic in Petaluma and even question a vaccine without someone spouting offbeing treated like crap. No way to solve anything Truth is adults need a lifetime of boosters if we are to try to eradicate the whooping cough. I bet there are many times more adults carrying the disease than children.

[elienos]

Sigh. Many of these adults have no health insurance & won't be getting booster shots any time soon.

Except insurance companies don't like to pay. They rarely even pay cost to doctors. CA doctors hit cost of whooping cough vaccine - San Jose Mercury News You think they are going to want to pay for a vaccine that isn't even regularly recommended?

But still, I don't think a lifetime of shots is the answer, but that is just me. It wouldn't work anyway. Do you know how many shots adults would have to get to be protected from all the diseases out there on a regular bases. They can't even get as many shots in the first two years that they want, it isn't going to happen. They can't control all adult for their entire life and no one wants to pay for it anyway.

You know, your baby is many many many times more likely to die in a car accident that from a disease passed by an unvaccinated person. Yet, if you baby dies in a car you will take no responsibility for making the choice of putting you child in that danger. Pharma companies are the ones that started this game of everytime there is a breakout with disease, blame the unvaccinated. I don't want to play that game and I will always argue against it. No to forced vaccinations.

[Braggi]

Almost everyone on here is a murderer under this reasoning, since we all, in one form or another, support the war machine and destruction of entire cultures as we fail to refuse to take part in it's systems since that would be inconvenient to us. So yes, take the reference to "murderer" as a grain of salt. Also, everyone who has vaccinated against chicken pox is again a murderer since the rate of the more deadly shingles has risen as a direct result. You are all MURDERERS!

War, yeah, anyone who pays taxes these days supports war. I'll go that far.

The chicken pox vaccine prevents deaths and neurologic damage. I can't find anything about shingles deaths in the news or in medical statistics. Shingles never causes death on its own and only rarely creates a pathway to secondary infection that causes death. Methinks you're reading something from those anti-vax sites again.

Please provide some links to factual sources if you have them.

-Jeff

[elienos]

Nothing that isn't supported by big pharma will be right at your fingertips. They want everyone to get the shot so everyone will then have to get more shots. Here are a couple links to articles by Dr. Goldman (https://www.drgoldmanonline.com/) on the subject from the International Journal of Toxicology. The second one is a little easier to read:

https://www.drgoldmanonline.com/R0010.pdf
https://www.drgoldmanonline.com/R0011.pdf

But you are right, shingles rarely causes death, just like the flu rarely causes death. It is complications connected to having the disease the causes the death. Shingles is more uncomfortable that chicken pox is to children.

War, yeah, anyone who pays taxes these days supports war. I'll go that far.

The chicken pox vaccine prevents deaths and neurologic damage. I can't find anything about shingles deaths in the news or in medical statistics. Shingles never causes death on its own and only rarely creates a pathway to secondary infection that causes death. Methinks you're reading something from those anti-vax sites again.

Please provide some links to factual sources if you have them.

-Jeff

[HolisticKids]

The pertussis booster is supposedly worthless unless you've had the 3-shot series within a certain timeframe. Which is probably why they're not really promoting boosters for adults. The best way for adults to prevent disease is to eat a healthy whole foods diet, get your vitamin D levels above 50 ng/mL, be happy and laugh a lot. Angry, fear mongering makes you more susceptible to disease.

Jane

Sigh. Many of these adults have no health insurance & won't be getting booster shots any time soon.

[elienos]

According to a study by Angel Gil, et al., of the Department of Health Sciences at Rey Juan Carlos University, the case-fatality rate of shingles is 4.6 per cent. This increases as does the age of the infected person, reaching 7.2 per cent by the 80 and over age bracket.

Read more: Can You Die From the Disease Shingles? | eHow.com Can You Die From the Disease Shingles? | eHow.com