H1N1 Flu Shot discussion and links

[Braggi]

right.
investigative reporting uncovers 'accidental' to be far outweighed by 'intentional' ...

Except I can't find a single article from a credible source that this ever happened. It seems the source for this story is Alex Jones Prison Planet. I'm sorry Alex feels imprisoned here, but I'm more than willing to donate to freeing him and sending him elsewhere.

Please, somebody find me a link to an actual credible source for this story. I'm tired of reading the dozens of dead ends that always lead back to Jones.

-Jeff

[Clancy]

Except I can't find a single article from a credible source that this ever happened. It seems the source for this story is Alex Jones Prison Planet. I'm sorry Alex feels imprisoned here, but I'm more than willing to donate to freeing him and sending him elsewhere.

Please, somebody find me a link to an actual credible source for this story. I'm tired of reading the dozens of dead ends that always lead back to Jones.

-Jeff

I'm a skeptic too, so I'll look. In the meantime, here's another horrific story about Baxter, maker of the H1N1 vaccine you just took. Baxter, along with Bayer Corporation, knowingly infected hemophiliacs in many countries with HIV/AIDs.

Watch the shocking MSNBC clip,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnNvr9pkOIA

then read the article for more info;
Baxter Avian Flu Virus FIASCO Brings Bayer/Baxter HIV Scandal Out Of The Closet!! - 1CLUB.FM - Free MUSIC Internet Radio Stations

[Clancy]

Except I can't find a single article from a credible source that this ever happened...

But the Polish Health Minister's statement to Parliament did happen, let's not overlook that...
UPDATE: Polish Health Minister, a family doctor, tells Parliament she will not allow use of untested swine flu jabs: reveals secret contracts violate the law

[Braggi]

I'm a skeptic too, so I'll look. In the meantime, here's another horrific story about Baxter, maker of the H1N1 vaccine you just took. ...

Well, I haven't taken the vaccine, but I'm willing to when it becomes available to me. Clancy, the "source" material listed at the end of the article is a bunch of opinion from quacks and non authority people. Where is the real evidence for any of this? How about some credible sources? The MSNBC video has been removed, not that I consider them a credible source.

I actually don't doubt the truth that there were HIV tainted blood products; that sounds reasonable for the time since there was no HIV test readily available. I do wonder about the companies continuing to distribute them after they proved tainted. I see no credible source for that.

Surely there is back up documentation for all this. Links?

-Jeff

[Clancy]

Watching you call everyone you disagree with a 'quack' is getting tedious. Is the Health Minister of Poland a quack too? Where do you get the authority to call MDs and Ph.Ds quacks? Aren't you a handyman or something?

The Bayer/Baxter HIV/AIDs scandal was major news, I'm surprised you don't remember it.
Contaminated haemophilia blood products - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's MSNBC's clip;
YouTube - BAYER AND BAXTER KNOWINGLY INFECTED HEMOPHILIAC PATIENTS WITH HIV/AIDS TAINTED VACCINE!!

Well, I haven't taken the vaccine, but I'm willing to when it becomes available to me. Clancy, the "source" material listed at the end of the article is a bunch of opinion from quacks and non authority people. Where is the real evidence for any of this? How about some credible sources? The MSNBC video has been removed, not that I consider them a credible source.

I actually don't doubt the truth that there were HIV tainted blood products; that sounds reasonable for the time since there was no HIV test readily available. I do wonder about the companies continuing to distribute them after they proved tainted. I see no credible source for that.

Surely there is back up documentation for all this. Links?

-Jeff

[Clancy]

Except I can't find a single article from a credible source that this ever happened. It seems the source for this story is Alex Jones Prison Planet. I'm sorry Alex feels imprisoned here, but I'm more than willing to donate to freeing him and sending him elsewhere.

Please, somebody find me a link to an actual credible source for this story. I'm tired of reading the dozens of dead ends that always lead back to Jones.

-Jeff

Baxter: Product contained live bird flu virus
By HELEN BRANSWELL, THE CANADIAN PRESS
https://www.torontosun.com/news/cana...7/8560781.html
The company that released contaminated flu virus material from a plant in Austria confirmed Friday that the experimental product contained live H5N1 avian flu viruses.

And an official of the World Health Organization’s European operation said the body is closely monitoring the investigation into the events that took place at Baxter International’s research facility in Orth-Donau, Austria.

“At this juncture we are confident in saying that public health and occupational risk is minimal at present,” medical officer Roberta Andraghetti said from Copenhagen, Denmark.

“But what remains unanswered are the circumstances surrounding the incident in the Baxter facility in Orth-Donau.”

The contaminated product, a mix of H3N2 seasonal flu viruses and unlabelled H5N1 viruses, was supplied to an Austrian research company. The Austrian firm, Avir Green Hills Biotechnology, then sent portions of it to sub-contractors in the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Germany.

The contamination incident, which is being investigated by the four European countries, came to light when the subcontractor in the Czech Republic inoculated ferrets with the product and they died. Ferrets shouldn’t die from exposure to human H3N2 flu viruses.

Public health authorities concerned about what has been described as a “serious error” on Baxter’s part have assumed the death of the ferrets meant the H5N1 virus in the product was live. But the company, Baxter International Inc., has been parsimonious about the amount of information it has released about the event.

On Friday, the company’s director of global bioscience communications confirmed what scientists have suspected.

“It was live,” Christopher Bona said in an email.

The contaminated product, which Baxter calls “experimental virus material,” was made at the Orth-Donau research facility. Baxter makes its flu vaccine — including a human H5N1 vaccine for which a licence is expected shortly — at a facility in the Czech Republic.

People familiar with biosecurity rules are dismayed by evidence that human H3N2 and avian H5N1 viruses somehow co-mingled in the Orth-Donau facility. That is a dangerous practice that should not be allowed to happen, a number of experts insisted.

Accidental release of a mixture of live H5N1 and H3N2 viruses could have resulted in dire consequences.

While H5N1 doesn’t easily infect people, H3N2 viruses do. If someone exposed to a mixture of the two had been simultaneously infected with both strains, he or she could have served as an incubator for a hybrid virus able to transmit easily to and among people.

That mixing process, called reassortment, is one of two ways pandemic viruses are created.

There is no suggestion that happened because of this accident, however.

“We have no evidence of any reassortment, that any reassortment may have occurred,” said Andraghetti.

“And we have no evidence of any increased transmissibility of the viruses that were involved in the experiment with the ferrets in the Czech Republic.”

Baxter hasn’t shed much light — at least not publicly — on how the accident happened. Earlier this week Bona called the mistake the result of a combination of “just the process itself, (and) technical and human error in this procedure.”

He said he couldn’t reveal more information because it would give away proprietary information about Baxter’s production process.

Andraghetti said Friday the four investigating governments are co-operating closely with the WHO and the European Centre for Disease Control in Stockholm, Sweden.

“We are in very close contact with Austrian authorities to understand what the circumstances of the incident in their laboratory were,” she said.

“And the reason for us wishing to know what has happened is to prevent similar events in the future and to share lessons that can be learned from this event with others to prevent similar events. ... This is very important.”

Baxter: Product contained live bird flu virus | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

[Barry]

...
It's not to each his own. Your failure to vaccinate your kid could kill my kid. That's beyond irresponsible, it's child abuse, and by extension, is manslaughter.

No, I'm not pulling punches, because this discussion has gotten too serious. The anti vaxers are beyond stupid, they're dangerous.

-Jeff

So your saying that your daughter could still get the flu even though she is vaccinated. So then it sounds like you don't have much faith in the efficacy of the vaccination.

[Braggi]

Watching you call everyone you disagree with a 'quack' is getting tedious. ...

Well that's an erroneous assumption, but that's OK. At the end of that article there are a long list of quotes and sorry, but they're from a bunch of quacks. I had scrolled beneath the articles from credible sources, and there are several listed. I apologize for that oversight. But the overall credibility of the article is certainly put into question because of the long list of nutty quotes. They didn't do a thing to support the points of the article.

If the company knowingly sent out tainted products, and it looks like they did, everyone in the know should be prosecuted and the company should be at risk of losing its corporate charter. I think it's total bull that corporations can commit horrible crimes and continue to exist, especially if no human (such as, the CEO or board of directors) winds up in prison.

-Jeff

[handy]

Interesting chart. A little perspective.
Shows worldwide deaths for the first 300 days of 2009.
You may need to blow it up some to see the detail.
Flu deaths are the vanishingly thin red line just right of center.

[peacetree]

I am a nurse, and have worked my entire career in a large public hospital with patients from all over the world. Perhaps I have been lucky, who knows? Regardless, I have NEVER had the flu vaccine, offered and strongly encouraged every year for free for all employees of the hospital ( SF General Hospital). I lived and worked in the Mission district of SF for 23 years, all of that time, a fairly crowded area of SF. I was unique among my coworkers , as I never got the flu, and never got the vaccine.I was instead the person who worked extra hours to replace those vaccinated who got so sick with the flu. I was very concerned about the vaccines, as each year it was reconfigured,supposedly to deal with the latest flu version, and therefore no significant longterm testing was ever possible.They make up batches of stuff that is supposed to target their best guess of which viral mix will take off when the temperature drops ( Ideal flu virus spreading temperature) I was ever mindful of the swine flu vaccine which so severely affected so many folks adversely many years back ( I am sure there is ample evidence available on the internet folks can look up about that fiasco.) I did have a friend who had some lifelong residual weakness in her legs from that vaccine for which she needs a cane and sometimes a wheelchair .

I am far from anti-vaccine for all issues. I was the typical 50s child with polio, small pox vaccines ( and I think whooping cough, diptheria and tetnus all as one vaccine, though I don't remember that one for sure.) I am certain my brothers and I were all given every polio vaccine available immediately, and were always in the first to get them in our area ( we had a gramma who had had polio in her 30's and was very affected by it, so our family was hyper on that particular issue. In fact, the family practice doctors we saw always called my mom to let her know as soon as the newest vaccine type was available for polio, so we really did get it before everyone else did. I remember shots and odd tasting sugar cubes .For sure, polio never had a chance with us as soon as there was any vaccine. )We also were in the generation who went to the neighbors with a nickle to play with whoever had measles or mumps or chicken pox as every mom "knew it was better to get it over with all at once", and most families had at least 3-5 children back then.I remember going over with all of my brothers, including one so young I had to carry him, and we all gave my neighbor Jimmy our nickles. (The bonus lucky child , the one who first had whatever the current childhood illness was, was given a nickle by every child who came to get exposed. That first sick kid made a small 50s fortune( pile of nickles) and the neighborhood pretty much had each of these diseases in turn over in a flurry of sick kids and very tired moms.) I know one of my brothers had pretty poor vision as a result of his measles ( coke bottle glasses, and in a family with no history of visual problems or glasses until he got the measles in 2nd grade), and one got scarlet fever ( though curiously no one else in the neighborhood got that one, but he was lucky and had no obvious heart problems from it, and is 52 at this writing.I also know my dad got measles or mumps and was really really sick ( adults got it worse than kids it seemed to me. My father was the poster child of why it was better to get these diseases as children for the whole neighborhood. I remember the other moms coming over and tsk tsking at the doorway at the sight of him all covered in ice chips and wet towels to bring his fever down, and all agreeing they were smart to have THEIR children get all of these pesky childhood illnesses over at once.)

I know I was flabberghasted when vaccines for all of this stuff came out much later when I was an adult.I know the "big 3 " were seen as inevitable rights of passage in childhood back then ( measles , chickenpox, and mumps ) Every so now and again German measles came through but no one got very sick from that , and it was so mild sometimes we didn't even know we had had it. None of us even gave German Measles a thought. I don't think anyone knew how dangerous that one was to a pregnant woman who had not had it when I was a child. But then , no one would have discussed pregancy with a kid either, let alone complications or birth defects. Anyway, this was a little long, but that is my history with vaccines.

I know that we all have waaaaay more worldwide access to crap we never would have encountered in my younger years.It was unusual to even travel outside of our country then, unless you were in the military. And all contagious diseases can be very very fast & easy to spread due to all of that movement. I do believe it is inevitable that some illness wicked bad will someday make a play for the over abundant people of this planet. WE are too crowded together everywhere, and have also crammed animals altogether in small areas in many parts of the world many times in close proximity to people who are jammed together too. Species transfer and cross breeding of some smart virus or bacteria is inevitable.( after all viruses and bacteria were here long before we were and will doubtless be here long after we are gone) So far we have dodged bullets a few times, but I do think we are definitely in line for a big big catastrophe, viral wise. I know we trained at SF General every year about mass outbreaks, as well as other mass casualties and how we would triage the vast numbers of folks when we ran out of hospital space.I don't think they do that comprehensive of a training for all staff , country wide, at public hospitals for fun. So, maybe I am being an idiot by not vaccinating. As I am now retired, I am no longer going to be given first crack at the newest vaccine( as all first responders are in public health). And , allegedly ,I am now more vulnerable as a newly senior citizen (62). I am not so sure about that. I think that my exposure to all of this stuff as a kid might have actually toughened my immune system, but who knows? I think eating really good organic food, avoiding the junky stuff with all the chemicals and doing all the usual stuff for health goes a long way. ie : no alcohol and drugs,no smoking, regular exercise, balanced meals, avoiding junk food and maybe a few vitamens to boost the deficencies in our soils etc etc etc I guess we shall see someday if my theory holds up. Meanwhile, whatever you decide for your particular body and life is your business. I honestly don't know what I would do if I had children now regarding vaccines. The world is now a very different place from when I was a child.

Peace, Christmas