CVS vs Sebastopol vs Nantucket

[photolite]

Sebastopol is not Nantucket, by a long shot.

Thank you for this.

You wrote: 'Nantucket officials were prepared to go to court to defend a town bylaw banning “formula businesses” with 14 or more stores'.

Is this your cause for inspiration? Thinking that Sebastopol can do this???

[tommy]

Very true, Sebastopol is not Nantucket.... thank God
- Nantucket is a wealthy, waspy touristy enclave, seasonal, extremely high rent...
- Sebastopol is more diverse, non touristy, politically conscious, more real, less preppy
- both places are incredibly beautiful, rich with divine nature, with a strong preservationist ethic

I doubt there ever was or will be an "Occupy Nantucket"

Sebastopol is not Nantucket, by a long shot.

[AllorrahBe]

Here in Peacetown USA, we got GRIT!! AND Occupy Sebastopol!! Let's continue to show CVS/Chase what Sebastopol IS all about--and keep them out of business at the heart of our little village.

Rev. BE

Very true, Sebastopol is not Nantucket.... thank God
- Nantucket is a wealthy, waspy touristy enclave, seasonal, extremely high rent...
- Sebastopol is more diverse, non touristy, politically conscious, more real, less preppy
- both places are incredibly beautiful, rich with divine nature, with a strong preservationist ethic

I doubt there ever was or will be an "Occupy Nantucket"

[photolite]

Tommy, Regarding your comments:
"Nantucket is a wealthy, waspy touristy enclave, seasonal, extremely high rent...
- Sebastopol is more diverse, non touristy, politically conscious, more real, less preppy"

Nantucket, like Sebastopol, has it's cadre of super wealthy who choose to summer there. Also like Sebastopol, it is almost 90% white, according to the 2010 U.S. Census. According to the same census, Sebastopol is about 1% African American while Nantucket is 10%, or ten times as much. Nantucket's Anglo population is itself rather diverse, with 20% Irish, 17% English and equal parts Italian, French, Portuguese and German. Sebastopol is, if anything, less diverse than Nantucket. Even its Hispanic population is more of a parallel society whereas Nantucket's is fully integrated.

Median household income for year-round Nantucket residents is $55,522. For Sebastopol it is $60, 322. You earn more than your counterpart on Nantucket.

As to Sebastopol being more real, that statement would evoke gut busting laughter anywhere outside city limits.

I agree that both places are amazingly endowed with sublime natural beauty but when it comes to preservation-ism, Nantucket is almost in class of its own. With one of the highest concentrations of Colonial and pre-Civil War structures in the nation, nothing in Calif. even comes close. Many in Sebastopol feel the "preservationist ethic" you assign to us here often feels more revisionist than preservationist. A CVS in Nantucket would be blazingly out of place. The Pellini property would not embody that same incongruity.
Nantucket has politically been solidly "blue" for at least the last 20 years. I would ask that, based solely on the results of their CVS success, whose political consciousness is more effective and energized?

I believe that Nantucket is a far different place than Sebastopol in many regards that facilitated their success. It remains to be seen if Sebastopol is able to do the same.

Also, there is an "Occupy Nantucket".

Very true, Sebastopol is not Nantucket.... thank God
- Nantucket is a wealthy, waspy touristy enclave, seasonal, extremely high rent...
- Sebastopol is more diverse, non touristy, politically conscious, more real, less preppy
- both places are incredibly beautiful, rich with divine nature, with a strong preservationist ethic

I doubt there ever was or will be an "Occupy Nantucket"

[dzerach]

You have succeeded in insulting my West Coast patriotism and sensibilities.

Preservationism? I didn't know that was synonymous with environmentalism.

Does Nanners have ongoing difficulties with traffic outside of the summertime when the population quintuples, do they have two highways going through downtown? Who cares.

My favorite of yours is this:

"Nantucket is almost in class of its own. With one of the highest concentrations of Colonial and pre-Civil War structures in the nation, nothing in Calif. even comes close."

Nothing in Calif. even comes close? Wow. HIGH-larious! Like I said, I don't know where to begin since you know so little about the STATE. Suffice to mention for now --- The town of Sebastopol, not surprisingly, as a west coast location, formed in the 1850s.

I don't understand what the purpose has been for these comparisons. Nantucket as a precedent? Will a petition force an exit? Ok, but how is any of this going to "answer the question about the petition's power." Stay in the present moment and do whatever you see can be done. Every situation is different. Who cares about f%$@-&t Nantucket to this degree.

Their success? I assume you mean with the petition.

There are so many holes here that I don;t even know where or how to begin a response, one prompted by what I see as -- once again -- a deep-seated, tortured need to put down Sebastopol for expressing any sense of self-determination among the Unreality of corporate America's pervasive brainwashing, AND some kind of tedious and archaic east coast sense of superiority that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Tommy, Regarding your comments:
"Nantucket is a wealthy, waspy touristy enclave, seasonal, extremely high rent...
- Sebastopol is more diverse, non touristy, politically conscious, more real, less preppy"

Nantucket, like Sebastopol, has it's cadre of super wealthy who choose to summer there. Also like Sebastopol, it is almost 90% white, according to the 2010 U.S. Census. According to the same census, Sebastopol is about 1% African American while Nantucket is 10%, or ten times as much. Nantucket's Anglo population is itself rather diverse, with 20% Irish, 17% English and equal parts Italian, French, Portuguese and German. Sebastopol is, if anything, less diverse than Nantucket. Even its Hispanic population is more of a parallel society whereas Nantucket's is fully integrated.

Median household income for year-round Nantucket residents is $55,522. For Sebastopol it is $60, 322. You earn more than your counterpart on Nantucket.

As to Sebastopol being more real, that statement would evoke gut busting laughter anywhere outside city limits.

I agree that both places are amazingly endowed with sublime natural beauty but when it comes to preservation-ism, Nantucket is almost in class of its own. With one of the highest concentrations of Colonial and pre-Civil War structures in the nation, nothing in Calif. even comes close. Many in Sebastopol feel the "preservationist ethic" you assign to us here often feels more revisionist than preservationist. A CVS in Nantucket would be blazingly out of place. The Pellini property would not embody that same incongruity.
Nantucket has politically been solidly "blue" for at least the last 20 years. I would ask that, based solely on the results of their CVS success, whose political consciousness is more effective and energized?

I believe that Nantucket is a far different place than Sebastopol in many regards that facilitated their success. It remains to be seen if Sebastopol is able to do the same.

Also, there is an "Occupy Nantucket".

[msl]

As to Sebastopol being more real, that statement would evoke gut busting laughter anywhere outside city limits.

Well, I DO live a couple houses outside the official city limits, so that statement's true, in my case!
Years back, when everyone had a Volvo (myself included), some friends were visiting from Oakland, and they asked me if there was any diversity in Sebastopol. I told then that sure, there was...you could have a sedan OR a station wagon; AND it could be any color you wanted!

[dzerach]

Howz'bout starting a new thread -- or threads, since there is also an interest in being "real" ? Or tie in the relevance? This thread is called "CVS sues Sebastopol."

[photolite]

Howz'bout starting a new thread -- or threads, since there is also an interest in being "real" ? Or tie in the relevance? This thread is called "CVS sues Sebastopol."

My post was in response to Tommy who drew wildly inaccurate comparisons between Nantucket and Sebastopol. I chose to provide a few facts to set the record straight. He made no mention of environmentalism, only preservation-ism, so that was what I addressed. Comparing these issues between the two towns is apples and oranges. That was my point.

Sebastopol may have been founded in 1850 but California was settled by the Spanish in the 1600s. Despite this long history of settlement nothing quite like Nantucket still exists from that far back to preserve. That was another point.

Nantucket's "success" was in discouraging CVS to continue their efforts to invade their community. This is the
subject of a number of the preceding posts so I don't understand your questioning its relevance.

My own West Coast sensibilities are not so easily offended by fact based reality as yours appear to be. This aversion to facts that don't fit with some local self perceptions of what might be "real" also addressed another of Tommy's comments.

I fail to see how any of this is off topic.

[dzerach]

Yes, I receive the emails for the thread, and have been reading them. Hence my response when the latest penultimate landed, yours.

Take some responsibility for the comparisons you are drawing and what you are implying. I'm really tired of hearing Seb being put down without expanding intelligently on what people are actually talking about in the put-down except that they dislike difference. What the town is trying to accomplish is really important. On many levels. The people in Sebastopol who work on these issues take a lot of flack, apparently just for being different. That's really what it comes down to. The way so many people sit back and aggressively make fun of the community's approach and decisions, to different degrees, is so disheartening to me.

I simply don't know what you are communicating or referring to as concerns the reality up front, CVS Sues Sebastopol (see question marks below). Perhaps directly expand on what you mean by real, or realistic, and link to the petition?

"My own West Coast sensibilities are not so easily offended by fact based reality (?) as yours appear to be. This aversion to facts that don't fit with some local self perceptions of what might be "real" (?) also addressed another of Tommy's comments."

As concerns the other thread that should be created, roughly drawn as, say, "Historical Preservation of California's Buildings or A Lack Thereof, and What is Says About the State" ...

Preservation -- You brought in the whole state in your comparison, why? The northern communities, north of SF, whether Russian or otherwise (buildings preserved) , settled much much later, leaving fewer buildings to preserve, and of course, as concerns building by the westward expansion, a population socialized much differently due to the different, pioneer era of inception.

Yes, I'm aware of how early the (now) STATE was settled -- very different settlement purposes and patterns, the destruction caused by earthquakes, the unique boom and bust phenomena and attitudes of the West, other political disruptions and upheavals, the different extent of actual buildings being erected, and different types of buildings and materials than east coast.

[tommy]

I've lived in both places. [Sebastopol and Nantucket]

Sebastopol is ALOT more fun.

[photolite]

Dzrach,
You're taking this much too personally and are being unnecessarily offensive. When we close our minds so tightly we see only that which we fear. I happen to adore Sebastopol and intend to stay here for the rest of my days. I believe you are confusing objections to particular political persuasions with "put(ting) down" Sebastopol. I understand that many of the participants on this site share your position and views and I accept that. Should there not be room for other, differing opinions or is wacco solely for those wishing to preach to the choir?

Nantucket has apparently succeeded in warding off the CVS invasion in their neck of the woods. Good for them. I applaud them for it, but my initial response to this information was that we most certainly are not Nantucket, by which I meant that there are a multitude of factors that, in my opinion, make this much more difficult for Sebastopol to accomplish. To me this seems self evident. Tommy then responded to this with what, to use your words, was a big put down of Nantucket, comparing it unfavorably to Sebastopol in class, economics, demographics and politics. I really don't care if he, or anybody, feels that way about the place. But he drew certain comparisons that were inaccurate and clearly reflects his bias. I also found it amusing that in his disregard for these "realities" he also declares Sebastopol to be "more real". When I posted the facts to illustrate these points, I apparently offended you. If it was my jest about others' perceptions of this brand of reality, all I can say is, "Jeesh, lighten up a bit". Please revisit what I wrote about his statements and tell me where I may be incorrect. If I stand corrected, it would certainly not be the first time but I believe the facts demonstrate he was mostly wrong.

Among his remarks were one comparing our preservationist ethic with that of Nantucket. This strikes me as ludicrous. We could also say, like the Vatican, we have nice churches. One could respond that in the whole United States there aren't any churches to compare to the Vatican. Would you ask "why bring the whole country in to this?". My statement clearly says that Nantucket is in rarefied company as regards its preservation and certainly nothing here can come close. I assume this to be a major reason for its success in keeping CVS off the island. It's not the sort of thing Sebastopol can rely upon in this endeavor. It's not a put down. It's a statement of reality whether or not you approve of it.

Yes, I receive the emails for the thread, and have been reading them. Hence my response when the latest penultimate landed, yours.

Take some responsibility for the comparisons you are drawing and what you are implying. I'm really tired of hearing Seb being put down without expanding intelligently on what people are actually talking about in the put-down except that they dislike difference. What the town is trying to accomplish is really important. On many levels. The people in Sebastopol who work on these issues take a lot of flack, apparently just for being different. That's really what it comes down to. The way so many people sit back and aggressively make fun of the community's approach and decisions, to different degrees, is so disheartening to me.

I simply don't know what you are communicating or referring to as concerns the reality up front, CVS Sues Sebastopol (see question marks below). Perhaps directly expand on what you mean by real, or realistic, and link to the petition?

"My own West Coast sensibilities are not so easily offended by fact based reality (?) as yours appear to be. This aversion to facts that don't fit with some local self perceptions of what might be "real" (?) also addressed another of Tommy's comments."

As concerns the other thread that should be created, roughly drawn as, say, "Historical Preservation of California's Buildings or A Lack Thereof, and What is Says About the State" ...

Preservation -- You brought in the whole state in your comparison, why? The northern communities, north of SF, whether Russian or otherwise (buildings preserved) , settled much much later, leaving fewer buildings to preserve, and of course, as concerns building by the westward expansion, a population socialized much differently due to the different, pioneer era of inception.

Yes, I'm aware of how early the (now) STATE was settled -- very different settlement purposes and patterns, the destruction caused by earthquakes, the unique boom and bust phenomena and attitudes of the West, other political disruptions and upheavals, the different extent of actual buildings being erected, and different types of buildings and materials than east coast.

[photolite]

Tommy, I've had great fun in both places. I, too, choose to live here.

I've lived in both places. [Sebastopol and Nantucket]

Sebastopol is ALOT more fun.

[dzerach]

I appreciate how you have stated your opinion more clearly. The other -- repeated, murky implications -- become offensive. Humor: Also -- seems like great fun to be able to conclude the lawsuit with a headline, "CVS tactics now rejected from coast to coast."


Apologies if my expectation for clarity and relevance offends. You're engaging in purposeful communication, of type (allegedly), "persuasion," -- a taskmaster -- not personal, and, foremost, the issue matters. Humor always welcome, naturally, if not integral.

First of all, this statement you keep making is another thread, reeks of an annoying insensitivity to the Western experience, and yes I find your need to compare the two in this way to be supported by ignorance and laughable, whether you mean the whole state, or just Sebastopol --- either way:

"Nantucket is in rarefied company as regards its preservation and certainly nothing here can come close."

The eye is the beholder. What I will address here is this:

"It's not the sort of thing Sebastopol can rely upon in this endeavor. It's not a put down. It's a statement of reality whether or not you approve of it."

Well, you've turned it into an opinion:

Thanks for sharing that Sebastopol cannot rely on -- as Nantucket apparently did -- a history of successful preservation of historic buildings to keep CVS from building a drive-through. But that would be the only reason for success? Surely that's not what you mean to say. What about, for one, the common demoninator of a reasonable, context-driven self-determination? Too idealistic?

Yes, preserving cool-looking buildings has never been the local motivation behind a rejection of the CVS relocation. However, there are indeed clear, local traditions to preserve, a local history, a social one, a continuum of intent that should be recognized and respected, and that's what we can talk about. Perhaps some people's reasons DO fall under preservation in this sense -- the related category of "ambience," or my favorite, "bhav."

(Contrary to interpretations made by a few folk, Seb. is not trying to create a theme park district out of a living community -- as Nan. may well be leaning toward in physical appearance, hence their success?!)

The two aspects of the Nantucket example as relates to this thread? Firstly, to wonder, well, what is the power of any strong petition, as interpreted by CVS and its' interests? Indeed, CVS seems to not like petitions. An opening for Seb. Old news.

In any thread, "Get real," or even the humorous possibility, "The town isn't being realistic b/c it isn't Nantucket," demands explication as an observation, or else it comes across as a reactionary put-down, which is fine -- it's just not very persuasive.

"...a multitude of factors that, in my opinion, make this much more difficult for Sebastopol to accomplish. To me this seems self evident."

I imagine it wasn't easy for Nan. either! A multitude of factors? I can guess to what you are alluding, but challenges certainly aren't barriers that pre-determine outcome. Yes, you have your doubts. Understood. At work here might be a reliance on an overly literal, mechanical view of the world, when a more expansive understanding of how cause and effect operates could be reviewed for efficacy.

Still don't know what any of this means:

"I also found it amusing that in (Tommy's) disregard for these "realities" he also declares Sebastopol to be "more real". When I posted the facts to illustrate these points, I apparently offended you."

"Realities"? More real" ? As actual points in an argument? A put-down is, in part, a way to not be transparent. They're just loaded words. Trying to add supporting facts to that? Isolated facts and statistics can be employed for varying purposes. Someone has taken up residence with a jangling shopping bag full of "facts." No, you have to state the actual connections. What's truly offensive is a reliance on implied "logic" to prove something. The offering of mere implication of relationships, again and again, without bothering to actually draw them.

Dzrach,
You're taking this much too personally and are being unnecessarily offensive. When we close our minds so tightly we see only that which we fear. I happen to adore Sebastopol and intend to stay here for the rest of my days. I believe you are confusing objections to particular political persuasions with "put(ting) down" Sebastopol. I understand that many of the participants on this site share your position and views and I accept that. Should there not be room for other, differing opinions or is wacco solely for those wishing to preach to the choir?

Nantucket has apparently succeeded in warding off the CVS invasion in their neck of the woods. Good for them. I applaud them for it, but my initial response to this information was that we most certainly are not Nantucket, by which I meant that there are a multitude of factors that, in my opinion, make this much more difficult for Sebastopol to accomplish. To me this seems self evident. Tommy then responded to this with what, to use your words, was a big put down of Nantucket, comparing it unfavorably to Sebastopol in class, economics, demographics and politics. I really don't care if he, or anybody, feels that way about the place. But he drew certain comparisons that were inaccurate and clearly reflects his bias. I also found it amusing that in his disregard for these "realities" he also declares Sebastopol to be "more real". When I posted the facts to illustrate these points, I apparently offended you. If it was my jest about others' perceptions of this brand of reality, all I can say is, "Jeesh, lighten up a bit". Please revisit what I wrote about his statements and tell me where I may be incorrect. If I stand corrected, it would certainly not be the first time but I believe the facts demonstrate he was mostly wrong.

Among his remarks were one comparing our preservationist ethic with that of Nantucket. This strikes me as ludicrous. We could also say, like the Vatican, we have nice churches. One could respond that in the whole United States there aren't any churches to compare to the Vatican. Would you ask "why bring the whole country in to this?". My statement clearly says that Nantucket is in rarefied company as regards its preservation and certainly nothing here can come close. I assume this to be a major reason for its success in keeping CVS off the island. It's not the sort of thing Sebastopol can rely upon in this endeavor. It's not a put down. It's a statement of reality whether or not you approve of it.

[Richard Nichols]

Well a big difference between the two places is that Nantucket citizens killed a bunch of whales and as far as I know Sebastopol has never killed one.

Sebastopol is not Nantucket, by a long shot.

[jbox]

I've lived in both places. [Sebastopol and Nantucket]

Sebastopol is ALOT more fun.

Look, I love west county and I've never even been to Nantucket, but I've never heard a limerick about Sebastopol. Anyone?? Surely we can't let them beat us in the limerick dept.

[dzerach]

A positive one is gonna swing upon whether people pronounce the town name "correctly" or not. ("poll") vs...

[photolite]

"There once was a girl with a mole...."

A positive one is gonna swing upon whether people pronounce the town name "correctly" or not. ("poll") vs...

[msl]

I'm dying to come up with a good one for good ol' Sebastopol, but I'm such a horrible poet! I'm going to do it, tho. It sounds like fun, and I don't believe we do have an official limerick for Seb Town. Hmmm...mole, pole, fool, duel.... I'll get backtoya!

[photolite]

"...who decided to go for a stroll"

I'm dying to come up with a good one for good ol' Sebastopol, but I'm such a horrible poet! I'm going to do it, tho. It sounds like fun, and I don't believe we do have an official limerick for Seb Town. Hmmm...mole, pole, fool, duel.... I'll get backtoya!