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  1. TopTop #1
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Gun Control Now!

    Our nation desperately needs gun control now, ASAP. Please lend your support by signing the petition below. Thank you!

    https://signon.org/sign/gun%2Dcontrol%2Dnow%2D1?source=mo&id=59399-20096925-Y2dTIxx
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  3. TopTop #2
    hearthstone's Avatar
    hearthstone
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!



    Even with the guns gone, the insanity causing gun violence will express itself in other ways. Our society is in need of serious healing, rather.
    Thanks, Hearthstone.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    Our nation desperately needs gun control now, ASAP. Please lend your support by signing the petition below. Thank you!

    https://signon.org/sign/gun%2Dcontrol%2Dnow%2D1?source=mo&id=59399-20096925-Y2dTIxx
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  5. TopTop #3
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    I would rather sign a petition to outlaw violent video games.....




    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    Our nation desperately needs gun control now, ASAP. Please lend your support by signing the petition below. Thank you!

    https://signon.org/sign/gun%2Dcontrol%2Dnow%2D1?source=mo&id=59399-20096925-Y2dTIxx
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  7. TopTop #4
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    I don't think we can/have to find the ONE most significant action--we can sign a petition to outlaw violent video games AND one for banning assault weapons. AND for more mental health...

    (I would really recommend the movie "Happy" [available on netflix]--a wonderful science/human story/international look at what raises our individual and societal contentment)

    kathy


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sara S: View Post
    I would rather sign a petition to outlaw violent video games.....
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  9. TopTop #5
    Conly's Avatar
    Conly
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    Control bullets. A gun without bullets is just a hunk of metal or an antique on the wall.. So you want to go target shooting ? take your gun to a licensed range, Buy ten rounds, shoot your targets. Then take your casings back to the person at the counter, trade them in. also you have to turn in any and all unused rounds as well as spent casings before before you leave the facility..
    Or maybe you are a "Hunter" (boar, Deer, Bear) How many rounds do you truly need.? If you are a real "hunter" you wont use 6 rounds in a day. Buy your ammo that morning turn in the spent casings and all unused rounds at the end of the day. Or Mr swat comes knocking on your door.
    If the Gov. can lock you up for one Pot seed then they can do it for possessing a live round too!

    But if you really want New Gun Laws then lets start tossing hand grenades into NRA meetings.

    Ok. tongue & cheek aside...
    I speak as a survivor of gun violence. When I was 18 my stepfather killed my mother in her sleep, then did himself with a 357. And yes we did take his guns away from him 2 years earlier.
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  11. TopTop #6
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    while we're at it, let's outlaw baby boo-boo or whatever that reality show is. Or better yet, reality TV altogether. More people are made stupid by watching those than are made violent from video games.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sara S: View Post
    I would rather sign a petition to outlaw violent video games.....
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  13. TopTop #7
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    while we're at it, let's outlaw baby boo-boo or whatever that reality show is. Or better yet, reality TV altogether. More people are made stupid by watching those than are made violent from video games.
    by the way, I don't really mean it.

    outlawing ownership of some kinds of weaponry isn't really the same category as outlawing expression of ideas, which games, movies, and other non-tangible products really are. There are a lot of ideas that are bad, and lead to bad behavior, but I don't see how outlawing them is possible or helpful.
    For example, the tragedy in question here seems to be (at least by early reports, if they're true at all) an outcome of the fear of governmental collapse that's cultivated by the right-wing press. Tempting as it is to try to control that kind of entertainment, it can't work - already there are a lot of people who think the government has somehow triggered this to impose more limits on freedom. You're not hearing a lot on these lines yet, but my prediction is that it's going to be a growing reaction.
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  15. TopTop #8

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sara S: View Post
    I would rather sign a petition to outlaw violent video games.....
    California did approve a voter initiative for that (in 2005 I think it was). The US Supreme overturned it. This is why I support State's rights over Federal rule. Let's recall the unconstitutional judges once and for all!
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  17. TopTop #9
    handy's Avatar
    handy
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    Comment from a similar thread on another site seems to nail it:

    "So another mass-murder conducted by a product of government schools, in a government school, under the government-recommended/mandated care of a government-employed/licensed shrink, on government-approved and government-promoted mind-altering drugs, in a government-mandated weapon-free zone, protected by a government agency the government claims 'serves and protects' (though it is incapable of doing so). Clearly the problem is guns."
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  19. TopTop #10
    handy's Avatar
    handy
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    Why the Government and Mainstream Media Celebrate Mass School Shootings (and Secretly Want Them To Continue)

    by Mike Adams
    Natural News
    Adam Lanza's armed massacre of young students in Newton, Conn. is being celebrated by the mainstream media. It's also being celebrated by Obama administration officials who publicly shed a tear but behind the scenes are no doubt high-fiving each other over the opportunity to push their agenda of citizen disarmament.

    The media celebrates mass shootings because they make for great ratings. People tune in to watch the horrifying scenes and share in the grief. This means eyeballs on the screen and that translates into ad revenue for the TV news networks.

    Over 33,000 Americans are killed each year in automobile accidents, but those deaths warrant virtually no media coverage. Why? Because individual auto accidents just aren't interesting enough to attract a bunch of eyeballs to the screen. But a mass killing... well, gee, that's interesting to view in a horrifying "train wreck" kind of way. So that gets the air time.

    The media glorifies psychopathic killers

    What's even more horrifying than the massacre itself is the way the mainstream media now glorifies mass shooters, turning them into cult heroes and even ranking their body counts as a sort of achievement score. The Newtown shooting currently holds the "high score" according to the mainstream media, and they have no problem pushing this kind of junk journalism as long as their teleprompter-reading reporters appear to be convincingly saddened for the cameras.

    Never mind the fact that such local shootings are largely irrelevant to the lives of Americans, especially given the far greater relevancy of issues like the Federal Reserve's debt creation monopoly, the deadly body count of prescription drugs (100,000+ Americans a year), the mass fluoride poisoning of the American people and so on. Why did the media spend hours broadcasting O.J. Simpson's white bronco slow-speed car chase on the LA freeways a few years ago? Because it was bizarre, not because it was relevant news. O.J.'s life is irrelevant to almost everyone other than O.J.

    With school shootings, you see, the killer victimizes the children once, and then the media victimizes them a second time.
    "Never waste a good crisis"

    Nowhere is the celebration of school shootings more amplified than in Washington D.C. where the federal government desperately wants to disarm the American people. The higher the body count of children in a given mass shooting, the more "moral authority" D.C. politicians will claim to have in destroying the rights of all Americans by demanding they turn in their guns.

    Right now, there's a massive call among traitors like Bloomberg to gut the Second Amendment and completely disarm perfectly innocent American citizens who have done nothing wrong (and are actually upstanding citizens who PREVENT crime).

    Remember: Millions of privately-armed Americans are off-duty cops and returning veterans who have been trained by the government to carry weapons and use them to stop crimes. But people like Obama and Bloomberg want to condemn them all as "potential criminals" and strip away their constitutional right to carry a firearm. This is the idiocy of the Washington agenda to ban all guns from private citizens.

    The more mass shootings occur, the louder the call becomes for "gun control" which actually doesn't work but it's a convenient scapegoat for those who don't know any better.

    This is precisely why Eric Holder and the Obama administration staged Operation Fast & Furious as a way to put guns directly into the hands of Mexican drug gangs, with the hope that those guns would multiply the number of violent shootings in states like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and California.

    The plan worked: Those guns were used in violent murders in the USA. But Eric Holder got caught, and now the Obama administration is busy trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug.

    School shootings are secretly welcomed by the Obama administration because they create the necessary emotional impact that will result in irrational public support for citizen disarmament schemes. This is why the federal government keeps pushing for school "gun free zones." Such signs posted outside schools advertise those schools as easy targets for psychopathic killers. It's almost like posting a sign that says, "All killers welcomed here!"
    Big Pharma also welcomes school shootings

    The pharmaceutical industry is at least partially responsible for many of these shootings, as it is their own drugs which cause young males to become violent and detached. The vast majority of shooters over the last two decades have all been taking prescription medications such as antidepressant drugs (which are known to cause violent, suicidal behavior).

    But the real benefit to Big Pharma from the school shootings is that such events traumatize other children who can then be "diagnosed" with fictitious psychiatric disorders which are invented solely for the purpose of selling more prescription medications to children who don't need them.
    Why school shootings will be allowed to continue

    School shootings, you see, benefit the media, the drug companies and the power base of the federal government. This is precisely why such shootings will be allowed to continue.

    The solution to stopping all school shootings is ridiculously simple: allow principles and school office personnel to carry concealed. This would allow them to save the lives of children by halting psychopathic killers with lethal force.

    And take down those delusional "gun free zone" signs. Posting a sign does not stop a psychopathic killer. If you want to physically stop such a killer, you need something called return fire.
    Watch the video: How to stop a massacre
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=epZod2qyyN4
    Reprinted with permission from Natural News.
    December 19, 2012
    Mike Adams is a natural health author and award-winning journalist. He has authored and published thousands of articles, interviews, consumers' guides, and books on topics like health and the environment. He is the editor of Natural News.
    Copyright © 2012 Natural News
    The Best of Mike Adams
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  21. TopTop #11
    theindependenteye's Avatar
    theindependenteye
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    One personal opinion. YMMV--

    The NRA has spoken. A cop in every school. Get rid of a teacher, hire a gun. Stand a guard the door so he can be the first to receive 20 bullets from an AR-15 and perhaps give kids a chance to hide under their desks, as we did with H-bomb drills. Give kids their daily reminder to stay properly terrorized: maybe they’ll put more heart into the Pledge of Allegiance.

    Above all, don’t make a dent in the arms trade. Gun control would be a job-killer. The NRA represents responsible hunters, hobbyists, and family protectors, plus a vast industry devoted solely to the firepower of money. Spin the outcry into a hero myth: each one of us packing heat, with a self-image as action hero swiftly dropping to our knees in the movie theatre or shopping mall, cameras rolling, planting one expert slug between the baddie’s eyes.

    They’re wise. Each time the outcry goes up, so does the sale of guns. It’s a winning formula.

    “An armed society is a polite society,” we are told by those who have only our safety at heart. And so clearly America is on its way to being the most serene, peaceful society in history. 30,000 deaths a year is a small price to pay for that. Imagine the rage-filled tailgater made placid as a lamb in the sights of your pink plastic equalizer.

    The rage, the sense of impotence, of a hopeless future, of being not a citizen but simply a consumer of toxic snacks, amusements, cock-teasing raised to epic dimensions, of being utterly fucking alone in a vast crowd of slavering Christmas shoppers -- all this will vanish if we put a cop in every school and a Glock in every purse.

    Gun control isn’t the answer, any more than insulin injections are the answer to diabetes. It’s a band-aid on the suppurations of a late-stage syphilitic who still declares he’s the healthiest guy on the planet. But until we find some way to cut back on the sugar and the spirochetes, we’d better stock up on the band-aids and the insulin.

    Cheers--
    Conrad
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  23. TopTop #12
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    The long and hard fight for gun control is worth the struggle. There are many who are against gun control despite the 20 murdered children in Connecticut.

    People against gun control should travel to Connecticut and spend Christmas Day with the families of those murdered children and explain to them, face to face, why they prefer that guns continue to be abundantly available to any nut-case so that this tragedy can be repeated indefinitely. Americans who argue against gun control prefer to see more murdered children than to provide a solution. Shame on them. They are being astonishingly ignorant, arrogant, insensitive, and ideologically deluded beyond belief.
    .


    .
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]19947[/ATTACH]
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  24. TopTop #13
    Hotspring 44's Avatar
    Hotspring 44
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    It seems that this post belongs more on this thread than the one the question was in...
    ...This is an answer to a question that Edward Mendoza asked on another thread: I will have to think clearly and evaluate the present day real life circumstance we have and formulate my answer which will take quite some time.
    The answer is a rather complex one to answer because of all the hi-powered semi-automatic rifles and ammo that already exists in the possession of millions of what are now,the vast majority of people that are law abiding US citizens, many of which may not willingly give-up their guns and ammo.

    Will they have their guns and ammo Grandfathered-in?... ...What about inheritance?... ...Will there end up being a class division between those that "legally" own hi-powered semi-automatic rifles and ammo and those that will be prohibited from possessing them simply because they don't already possess any prior to the possible (likely) upcoming ban/s?...

    ...That is one thing to seriously consider particularly during certain situations like a prolonged natural disaster such as a devastating hurricane, floods, earthquakes, ARC Storm that have the potential to have effects that can linger for longer than most people and their life's supplies can endure that have the potential aftermath of people being in the circumstance of fending for themselves in some of the more remote or neglected locations.
    Hurricane Catrina and the 3 New Orleans Police Convicted In Post-Katrina Killing, Burning Of Body is one example of how things can (temporarily) become beyond the federal governments control and that the ones that are the 'legally armed class' "citizens", some of who may have in theory sworn to "serve and protect" may not, or even worse, actually do harm with their hi-powered semi-automatic (or government issue automatic) rifles and maybe even government issue armor piercing ammo etc.
    What I am saying is in many rural places (but not all obviously) (armed) neighbors IE: "the people" with reasonable morals have a better ability to police and secure their homes in the short term than certain officials can or do.

    I think that there is a very fine and sometimes blurred line that separates us from tyranny and reasonable amount of liberty. The second amendment was most likely put there to reasonably preserve the first amendment amongst other liberties.

    Civil Rights as we now know it now is unfortunately more fragile and in danger of being lost in times of national anger or panic.
    Our Civil Rights can be picked apart bit-by-bit if we aren't very careful of who we elect and what we tell our law makers we want.

    Besides all that, what about non semi-automatic guns and the fact that some people live beyond any reasonable response time for law enforcement to help until after the fact?...
    ...Home invasions don't only happen where the response time is within 10 minutes (usually 3 minuets in metro areas). Some anti-gun extremists want to have all guns banned 100%. That is not who I want to have in the discussion because that kind of extreme measure is unreasonable. I also don't want anyone that wants an armed privatized militia with all kinds of modern weaponry in the discussion either for the same reason.

    I know first-hand that a time of panic or anger is not when people are in a balanced enough state of mind to make long lasting absolute decisions even for themselves... ...not to mention the whole country.

    We don't want to create more harm than good and use an unreasonable form of new laws and, as example: end up using paramilitary forces to use violence ("if necessary") in our neighborhoods to confiscate guns, ammo and particular accessories like large capacity clips from peoples homes at large which would in my assessment be somewhat widespread if enforced nationally and could be more tragic in the long run than what we have seen in our history since the Civil War.
    If any new law is to be made it should be carefully phased-in if it has any outright bans on already existing things that people already inevitably have.

    Gun Control is a very serious subject that should be reckoned with and has potential to go very wrong without careful analysis of the reality on the ground, so...
    ...I am not saying don't change the laws but whatever changes take place have to be reasonably doable without creating a perception or reality of tyranny otherwise I fear that being unreasonable with "gun control" that major civil unrest in the process could unravel into a worse situation than we would think.
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  26. TopTop #14
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    Predictable behavior!


    Sales rise at North Bay gun shops
    https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121227/COMMUNITY/121229639

    By PAUL PAYNE
    THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

    Published: Thursday, December 27, 2012 at 5:58 p.m.

    Fear that stricter gun laws may be looming in the wake of the Connecticut school shooting has triggered a sustained spike in sales at North Coast gun shops.

    Concern that President Barack Obama might crack down on the sale of certain assault rifles has emptied store shelves as customers snap up firearms and accessories they think might soon be unavailable to them.

    That sentiment led James Lunsford of Sebastopol to a Cotati gun shop Thursday, where he filled out paperwork to purchase a Sig Sauer 9mm pistol, similar to one of the weapons carried by the man who killed 26 people at Sandy Hook Elementary School Dec. 14.

    “I'm worried the government is going to restrict us from purchasing firearms,” said Lunsford, 22, a hospital technician. “People have a right to own tools that are there to protect you.”

    Store owner Dave Baker said he was experiencing the biggest rush since Obama became president four years ago.

    People are buying all kinds of firearms and he's sold out of the sought-after AR-15 assault-type weapon. It was one of three guns carried by Newtown, Conn. shooter Adam Lanza and was mentioned in the president's recent speech as the possible subject of a ban.

    Baker, the owner of B2 Enterprises on Redwood Drive, said he sold his last military-style rifle about a week-and-a-half ago.
    “All you have to do is tell people that they can't have it and they'll want it,” he said as a steady stream of customers filed into his shop. “They are nervous about having their rights taken away from them.”

    At Schmidt & Titoni Firearms in Santa Rosa, gun dealers reported a similar surge.

    See more in article in PD

    https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...NITY/121229639
    Last edited by Barry; 12-31-2012 at 02:18 PM.
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  28. TopTop #15
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    Americans are crazy. This includes so-called "liberals" because many are in same ideological boat as Tea Party fascists when it comes to the issue of guns.
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  30. TopTop #16
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    I'd have to agree that our culture is very sick, and the sickness is passed on from generation to generation, until someone is able to see the pattern and do something different by getting help or new information.

    I was born into a family of mental ill generations, and fortunately I was spared enough to recognize the symptoms, and make changes, which included leaving home at 12 to get away from the insanity. It was one of the smartest moves of my life, because I could see my future, and it wasn't a pretty picture.

    I created a new scenario with healthy role models, and then re-created a new healthy family that in turn has created families without substance abuse of any kind, and loving role models for their children.

    I'm so thankful to have been able to see the dysfunctional pattern from an early age, make a "get away." Many children aren't so lucky.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    Americans are crazy. This includes so-called "liberals" because many are in same ideological boat as Tea Party fascists when it comes to the issue of guns.
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  32. TopTop #17
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    ...And back to the issue of mass-murder in the US, we need gun control.

    Edward

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    I'd have to agree that our culture is very sick, and the sickness is passed on from generation to generation, until someone is able to see the pattern and do something different by getting help or new information...
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  34. TopTop #18
    Hotspring 44's Avatar
    Hotspring 44
     

    Re: Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    Edward, realistically, how should the job of eliminating millions of guns that are already in peoples possession that you apparently want to ban (“now!”) and apparently confiscate too be done without a shot... ...no, rather, I should say, many shots being fired if confiscation is part of the new law? I don't think that (confiscation) is realistic to do that "now!" like you so passionately and idealistically are saying, it simply won't happen like that, (I mean) so immediately; it would criminalize too many and would inevitably and unfortunately lead to more gun violence, not less.

    It is so easy to say just get rid of and ban; but in real terms I have not heard much from the anti gun advocates on the how, only the what and only after a horrific episode of a deranged person using a gun on innocent unarmed people most of which were children took place.

    I think there will ultimately be a ban on particular weapons and possibly certain ammo for future sale but I don't believe that there will be a mass confiscation of what is already out there. And there will certainly be no outright ban on all guns in this country any time soon.

    I do know what you are saying about, as you put it, “so-called "liberals"” but I have to say; to some degree, some “liberals”, so-called or not, do believe that the second amendment has it's place in the discussion but not necessarily the same as the NRA has as you surmise.... ...Just because some (“liberals”) disagree with you about gun control specifics does not mean they are “crazy”.

    Even so-called fanatics (the NRA in this instance) can have a good point or two that someone reasonable (“liberals” in this instance) can agree with... ...so just because someone agrees with a particular point or another the so-called fanatic makes that you happen to disagree with in a discussion does not mean they are “crazy” or “fascist” either for that mater, IMHO.

    There are, in this discussion topic two types of so-called “fascists” 1 are 100% anti gun, no matter what and the other are 100% pro gun no matter what.
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    Americans are crazy. This includes so-called "liberals" because many are in same ideological boat as Tea Party fascists when it comes to the issue of guns.
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  36. TopTop #19
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    Well spoken. You bring up points that are realistic. Who would willingly hand over their guns without a battle? Which in turn makes them armed criminals. The real criminals aren't about to hand over anything. There are many reasons why people own guns. I was advised to buy a small handgun for protection, when I lived alone. I couldn't do it, not because I fear guns, but because I feared having it turned on me. I do believe in having melee weapons close at hand, like a baseball bat, in addition to a good alarm system, electronic or canine.


    I'd like to hear from people in our community who do own guns, and their reasons for it. How would they respond to a call for their guns? This may be a sensitive privacy issue, and gun owners may not want to reveal themselves, which is understandable. I'm wondering how many of our peace loving citizens do actually own guns for their protection, as we become more vulnerable.

    I do know of people, (men) on the police force who wouldn't hesitate to use their gun, in a case of mistaken identity from "profiling", which we know has happened, and that act is covered up by those in power. Combine rage with firepower, and you've got a dangerous combination, which is sanctioned if you're on the force. There's a lot of rage among our citizens, many of whom own guns....which at some point may lead to another civil war. Taking away their guns is another way to reduce their power, after taking away their power to feed themselves and their children.

    Guns aren't the only way to kill children and adults; they die daily from malnutrition and lack of medical care.

    I think that lumping people into categories, and calling them "crazy" or "fascist" is a red flag to me, and it puts me off from any statements that may follow.

    I'm glad to see statements from critical thinkers on this board, and wish Dixon could step into the fray.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Hotspring 44: View Post
    Edward, realistically, how should the job of eliminating millions of guns that are already in peoples possession that you apparently want to ban (“now!”) and apparently confiscate too be done without a shot... ...no, rather, I should say, many shots being fired if confiscation is part of the new law? I don't think that (confiscation) is realistic to do that "now!" like you so passionately and idealistically are saying, it simply won't happen like that, (I mean) so immediately; it would criminalize too many and would inevitably and unfortunately lead to more gun violence, not less.

    It is so easy to say just get rid of and ban; but in real terms I have not heard much from the anti gun advocates on the how, only the what and only after a horrific episode of a deranged person using a gun on innocent unarmed people most of which were children took place.

    I think there will ultimately be a ban on particular weapons and possibly certain ammo for future sale but I don't believe that there will be a mass confiscation of what is already out there. And there will certainly be no outright ban on all guns in this country any time soon.

    I do know what you are saying about, as you put it, “so-called "liberals"” but I have to say; to some degree, some “liberals”, so-called or not, do believe that the second amendment has it's place in the discussion but not necessarily the same as the NRA has as you surmise.... ...Just because some (“liberals”) disagree with you about gun control specifics does not mean they are “crazy”.

    Even so-called fanatics (the NRA in this instance) can have a good point or two that someone reasonable (“liberals” in this instance) can agree with... ...so just because someone agrees with a particular point or another the so-called fanatic makes that you happen to disagree with in a discussion does not mean they are “crazy” or “fascist” either for that mater, IMHO.

    There are, in this discussion topic two types of so-called “fascists” 1 are 100% anti gun, no matter what and the other are 100% pro gun no matter what.
    Last edited by Barry; 01-01-2013 at 03:11 PM.
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  38. TopTop #20
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    Just read this: "You cant legally buy in a Supermarket more than 6 packets of Sudafed tablets or a Chocolate Kinder egg or some french cheeses etc . but! you can go to Walmarts and buy an AR-57 plus 100 bullet magazines. the weapon that has been used in the last 4 mass killings. Thanks Walmart!
    Last edited by Barry; 01-01-2013 at 03:12 PM.
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  39. TopTop #21

    Re: Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    ...And back to the issue of mass-murder in the US, we need gun control.

    Edward

    Good idea, worked in Nazi Germany.

    And the few bad apples that always exist will never again find one of the millions of guns in existence or another way to mass murder. Problem solved. Who cares why the founding fathers found writing gun ownership into the constitution crucial and foundational to keeping government in check - as the previous 1000's of years of history taught that they are prone to do given any chance.

    But I'd rather start with gun controlling the US Government instead of giving them ALL the control! The US Government is the most immoral, invasive, prolific mass murderers currently on the planet with their cavalier dismissal of the 100,000's+ of 20th century violent deaths on their hands of innocent men, women and children as 'collateral damage' and 'friendly fire' in self-serving, unjustified wars to start with. They weren't 'oops'. It's naive to think they'll care any more about you if lines are drawn.

    Besides, take away all the excessive guns, supplies, salaries, upkeep, uniforms, food, hardware of 700 of the 800+ military bases, and all 300 underground bases.... VOILA! - tax dollars suddenly prolifically available to fund infrastructure, education, medical care, mental health care, arts, social security, ....etc. and a much healthier, less frustrated society.
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  41. TopTop #22
    theindependenteye's Avatar
    theindependenteye
     

    Re: Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    No question but that some of the issues raised by anti-gun control people on this list are valid. Tons of guns out there already, 2nd Amendment interpretations, instances where gun laws haven't worked, hypocrisy of bombing Pakistanis, the need for a radical transformation into a culture of peace, etc. What I find it hard to understand is that any of these are marshaled as arguments against doing anything about the insane number of shootings and gun deaths in this country by reasonable licensing and restrictions on purchase and possession.

    To be logically consistent, I would propose that since laws against murder, rape, and robbery don't prevent these crimes from happening, there's no reason to have the laws. If murder is outlawed, only outlaws will murder. And driving would be safer if everyone drove 90 mph: we'd be more alert, and we wouldn't be on the road so long. And since the US Gov't commits atrocities, it's hypocritical to interfere with the Mafia's private enterprise.

    This conversation at least lays one canard to rest. We Waccovians are often charged with being cookie-cutter Liberals, all brainlessly echoing the party line. There's clearly at least one issue that divides us. Long live diversity, and enjoy the shooting.

    Cheers—
    Conrad
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  43. TopTop #23
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Sales of guns rise at North Bay gun shops...PD

    I would like to consolidate this debate in one thread, not several threads and on several forums, as it is now. Here's why:

    I get the feeling that you are fear mongering about a fantasy. You're saying that if we take the dangerous step of gun control that the American public will rise up in arms and start another civil war. This is far-fetched, to say the least. Also, you are assuming that gun control will turn into some very unreasonable laws. You share the same fears as the staunchest members of the NRA. Maybe you should become their Sonoma County rep?

    For starters, the prohibition of the sale of guns whose only purpose is to kill people must be outlawed ASAP. These include all assault rifles (as I already answered in a previous question you asked me in another post). This should include automatic and semi-automatic ARs. Furthermore, the magazines on ALL gun need to be greatly limited, at least to 50% of what they are now. More detailed legislation can stipulate the number of rounds, etc.

    It is possible to write good statute, Hotspring, but we have to have the will to do so. Otherwise, the dead bodies of Americans, including little children, will continue to pile up. And saying, essentially as you do, that we better not do anything simply because it might violate the 2nd Amendment is no longer an acceptable argument. It never was. You need to come up with solutions, not naysaying. Please leave that for the NRA, the Tea Party, Libertarian kooks, and other extremists and radicals.

    I'm looking for a solution. What are YOU doing??? You seem to be simply saying: "DON'T YOU DARE DO ANYTHING BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE A TOTALITARIAN STATE (sound familiar? 'rednecky,' perhaps?) AND WE WILL HAVE ANOTHER CIVIL WAR. This is just fantastic fear mongering, just like the Republican Right Wing, and it just won't do. It doesn't help. Your stance does not provide a solution. It only prolongs the suffering, the killing, the dead, and the genocide.

    It is very contradictory on your part to pretend to be a man of peace, being against the wars this country wages, but, "Oh no! We can't have gun control right here in the empire. We need to watch the piles of American dead bodies continue to rise." Please change your attitude and become a consistent person with your other peace-loving beliefs. It's as if you express profound revulsion only when it concerns people in other countries that the US bombs and occupies. But that kind of revulsion is absent because the 2nd Amendment would be violated with gun control laws. Please. I beseech you.

    As far as your other concerns about the gargantuan stockpile that already exists in the US, please be careful of not committing the logical fallacy of negating change because "there are already too many guns out there so it's no use," etc. Nothing could be farther from the truth. That kind of thinking is just plain wrong. Also, in the same breath, you are saying something along the lines of, "The only possible solution now, with that ocean of guns throughout America, is to arm the shit out of everyone else." That's what the NRA is saying right now. That is tantamount to saying that the solution to having too many guns in the US is to get MANY MORE guns into EVERYBODY'S hands! This is sooo absurd! Again, please...

    We need to start clamping down on the sale of ARs. This is a start. If you want, we can "grandfather" in the guns that are already out there. And as an additional solution to that particular problem (the existing gargantuan arsenal, let's call it the "EGA"), there have already been very successful programs in other countries encouraging people to VOLUNTARILY turn in their weapons. This has been done in Scotland (knives), Spain, and many other nations with varying degrees of success, but successful in the balance. Why? Because anyone who turns in a gun voluntarily automatically reduces the EGA by a little bit. And there will be many people who do.

    The same rules can be applied to inheritance. You inherit the gun, it's yours. You will also have the option of turning it in voluntarily. There are solutions available to almost all types of problems but there never will be any if there is no will and if people, like you, continue to express your staunch opposition. Leave that to the Republicans, Libertarians, Rednecks, Tea Baggers, Conservatives, Confederates, Reactionaries, Gun Industry Corporations, etc. They don't need your help screwing the country over more than they have already done.

    We need solutions, not opposition to change. We Americans need to change our attitudes and stop being so "back-woodsy" about the old-fashioned American gun myth and its lies. If we want change in this country then we also need to start with ourselves. We can't just sit back and expect someone from on high to do all of that work for us, and expect them to succeed with OUR opposition. This is crazy-making. How can Americans be so hypocritical and vote for change and then oppose those same political forces that we elected when they try to bring us the change that we charged them with in the first place?!

    Fritz Perls (the greatest Gestalt psychologist of all time) said, "To do die and be reborn is not easy." He was right. look to yourself for the change that you yearn for so much. You can start by changing your attitudes about guns. Debunk the classical American myths about our gun culture and heritage. I know I'm asking a lot, too much, in fact, because your first response will be, "I don't want that kind of change." But We the People need you to make that change of heart, we all need to make that change. I don't expect it from the fanatics at the NRA, the Republican Party, Gun manufacturing corporations and their lobbies, ideological extremists like the Libertarians and Tea Baggers/Partiers, but I do expect that kind of profound change from more humanistic and progressive minded people like you and me and the majority of people on this list--a conscious community.

    We can examine the use or justification about handguns. If we develop a committee and studies, at both the federal and state levels, to see if handguns are still useful, then they have to be regulated much more strictly than they are now. For example, I don't want to see Glock guns sold in the market. I only want to see that used by police and the Armed Forces, etc. I don't want to see another kook like the one in Arizona use a Glock gun to shoot people like Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. I cried like a baby when that happened. Please join me in the effort to avoid these kinds of horrific tragedies from taking place.

    Or if the research finds that the consequences outweigh the benefits of handguns, then they too should be outlawed, with the ones in the EGA to "grandfathered" in, as you say. But using abstract arguments like the 2nd Amendment do not help the problem at all. It only obfuscates the issue. If you want to pound your fist so hard on the table regarding the Constitution, let's take a hard look at what that's all about, and maybe the need for that Amendment is not as necessary as it once was. Someone on the Wacco List said recently that we need guns so that the American people can protect themselves from a Nazi government here in the US. I don't know about you, but this kind of attitude is out of line with reality.

    We Americans need to stop treating the US Constitution like the Holy Bible. This has to stop. We can continue to do, if the majority of us want to, but it won't be any different than the Saudis amputating hands after the 3rd warning to a thief to not steal again. I'm of the opinion that NO ONE, no matter how democratically or how traditional, has the right to cut off people's hands. I hope we Americans are enlightened enough and brave enough these days to change our attitudes about guns.

    Just say 'NO' to guns. I dare you. The time has come.

    Edward

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Hotspring 44: View Post
    Edward, realistically, how should the job of eliminating millions of guns that are already in peoples possession that you apparently want to ban (“now!”) and apparently confiscate too be done without a shot... ...no, rather, I should say, many shots being fired if confiscation is part of the new law? I don't think that (confiscation) is realistic to do that "now!" like you so passionately and idealistically are saying, it simply won't happen like that, (I mean) so immediately; it would criminalize too many and would inevitably and unfortunately lead to more gun violence, not less.

    It is so easy to say just get rid of and ban; but in real terms I have not heard much from the anti gun advocates on the how, only the what and only after a horrific episode of a deranged person using a gun on innocent unarmed people most of which were children took place.

    I think there will ultimately be a ban on particular weapons and possibly certain ammo for future sale but I don't believe that there will be a mass confiscation of what is already out there. And there will certainly be no outright ban on all guns in this country any time soon.

    I do know what you are saying about, as you put it, “so-called "liberals"” but I have to say; to some degree, some “liberals”, so-called or not, do believe that the second amendment has it's place in the discussion but not necessarily the same as the NRA has as you surmise.... ...Just because some (“liberals”) disagree with you about gun control specifics does not mean they are “crazy”.

    Even so-called fanatics (the NRA in this instance) can have a good point or two that someone reasonable (“liberals” in this instance) can agree with... ...so just because someone agrees with a particular point or another the so-called fanatic makes that you happen to disagree with in a discussion does not mean they are “crazy” or “fascist” either for that mater, IMHO.

    There are, in this discussion topic two types of so-called “fascists” 1 are 100% anti gun, no matter what and the other are 100% pro gun no matter what.
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  44. TopTop #24
    Hotspring 44's Avatar
    Hotspring 44
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    ......
    Edward, you said allot there.
    I am not sure I can take it all in in one reading so for this posting I will say the following:

    I would like to have the luxury to live in a world where there is no one that would even consider harming anyone else but unfortunately that is not the case.

    I am concerned with the already existing multitudes of the so-called assault weapons “guns” and ammo for them and the time it will reasonably take to phase them out. I don't disagree with a reasonable approach towards that as a long-term goal.

    Most people in the US that have stockpiled that type of weaponry are not “progressives”, they are staunch,, hard core, right wing zealot types some of who are as adamant about their “riotousness” as the Taliban is but only with a different religion, however they are very dangerous and need to be watched very closely, they can disrupt things in all different directions.
    They can use the NRA and such to make real trouble in the law making and lobby so as to render others (“people”) they don't like into an unarmed state while they, (the zealots) are still armed; (Nazi Germany comes to mind) That is not acceptable!...
    ...I would rather have gun laws remain as they are now rather than have that imbalance of fire-power.
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  45. TopTop #25
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    Hotspring, I sure wish you had fully read Edward's post before "answering".

    kathy
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  46. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  47. TopTop #26
    Hotspring 44's Avatar
    Hotspring 44
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    I'm looking for a solution. What are YOU doing??? You seem to be simply saying: "DON'T YOU DARE DO ANYTHING BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE A TOTALITARIAN STATE (sound familiar? 'rednecky,' perhaps?) AND WE WILL HAVE ANOTHER CIVIL WAR. This is just fantastic fear mongering, just like the Republican Right Wing, and it just won't do. It doesn't help. Your stance does not provide a solution. It only prolongs the suffering, the killing, the dead, and the genocide.
    And:

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Edward Mendoza: View Post
    It is very contradictory on your part to pretend to be a man of peace, being against the wars this country wages, but, "Oh no! We can't have gun control right here in the empire. We need to watch the piles of American dead bodies continue to rise." Please change your attitude and become a consistent person with your other peace-loving beliefs. It's as if you express profound revulsion only when it concerns people in other countries that the US bombs and occupies. But that kind of revulsion is absent because the 2nd Amendment would be violated with gun control laws. Please....
    First of all there are differing reasons to legitimately go to war as a country that I think would be necessary and justifiable but the lies and deceit that got us to go to Iraq are not what I would say were legitimate.

    An honest defense would be.

    The way you stated to me
    Quote Your stance does not provide a solution
    has the implication that somehow, out of the blue, that I for some reason, unbeknownst to me, have an obligation to come-up with a solution. (?)... ...Say what!???... ...Excuse me but; where did that come from? I never professed to have a “solution”.

    And as you said:
    Quote ...sound familiar? 'rednecky,' perhaps?
    Perhaps...

    And as you said:
    Quote It only prolongs the suffering, the killing, the dead, and the genocide....
    “Genocide” you say? Are you trying to lay a guilt trip on me?... ... If you are, it is not working or helping to formulate a reasonable and realistic solution.

    Then you went on with:

    Quote We need to start clamping down on the sale of ARs. This is a start.
    I agree, for that matter, add other like guns too. The ammo is another subject that is more complex because many bolt action hunting rifles use the same cartridges as do the “assault” rifles. Banning the armor piercing rounds is a no-brainier but hollow-point bullets do have a legitimate hunting use.

    You also said: …
    Quote there have already been very successful programs in other countries encouraging people to VOLUNTARILY turn in their weapons.
    That is one thing that I had in mind. It is what it will ultimately take to lower the "EGA"

    Also you said
    Quote The same rules can be applied to inheritance. You inherit the gun, it's yours. You will also have the option of turning it in voluntarily.
    Edward, I agree with that. Now we are closer to the same wavelength.

    Then you said this:
    Quote Gun Industry Corporations, etc. They don't need your help screwing the country over more than they have already done.
    Don't fret, they are not getting any “help” of any consequence from me.

    You asked:
    Quote How can Americans be so hypocritical and vote for change and then oppose those same political forces that we elected when they try to bring us the change that we charged them with in the first place?!
    I ask myself that same question on many social and political topics, I believe the word, in a nutshell is: fear.

    I agree with the thought (what I think you are basically saying somewhere in that post) (that) America needs to do some soul searching for the peaceful inner being that exists somewhere under all that armor and use it; and the sooner the better.

    You also said:
    Quote We can examine the use or justification about handguns. If we develop a committee and studies, at both the federal and state levels, to see if handguns are still useful, then they have to be regulated much more strictly than they are now. For example, I don't want to see Glock guns sold in the market. I only want to see that used by police and the Armed Forces, etc. I don't want to see another kook like the one in Arizona use a Glock gun to shoot people like Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. I cried like a baby when that happened. Please join me in the effort to avoid these kinds of horrific tragedies from taking place.
    I hope we don't make the mistake of putting the horse before the carriage and only concentrate on what is ultimately all guns eventually being prohibited.

    We must also consider the lack of mental health care and the warning signs that are vastly more prevalent in individuals that commit mass murder with guns because they will use whatever is closest at hand to do their killing with because, ultimately, when that deranged person if left untreated and/or isolated, that person would just as likely use something just as deadly as a gun anyway.

    If we simply remove the first weapon of choice there would be a second, third, etc because the problem which is ultimately a mentality will forever be inadequately addressed. That being said, it is a reasonable idea to start with banning sales of certain guns and ammo clips and such to minimize the threat at large.

    So do you think I can represent the local NRA after saying that?
    Last edited by Hotspring 44; 01-02-2013 at 02:05 AM. Reason: typo correction (likely in place of "lily")
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  48. Gratitude expressed by:

  49. TopTop #27
    Hotspring 44's Avatar
    Hotspring 44
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    I did but it was allot to take in as I said.
    I have already posted a more complete reply.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    Hotspring, I sure wish you had fully read Edward's post before "answering".

    kathy
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  50. TopTop #28
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    I have merged the two gun control threads into this one.

    Barry
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  51. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  52. TopTop #29
    theindependenteye's Avatar
    theindependenteye
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    >>>I am concerned with the already existing multitudes of the so-called assault weapons “guns” and ammo for them and the time it will reasonably take to phase them out. ...
    >>>Most people in the US that have stockpiled that type of weaponry are not “progressives”, they are staunch,, hard core, right wing zealot types some of who are as adamant about their “riotousness” as the Taliban is but only with a different religion, however they are very dangerous and need to be watched very closely, they can disrupt things in all different directions.
    >>>They can use the NRA and such to make real trouble in the law making and lobby so as to render others (“people”) they don't like into an unarmed state...
    >>>I would rather have gun laws remain as they are now rather than have that imbalance of fire-power.

    Please clarify. I just don't follow your logic.

    Are you saying that because there's a heavy preponderance of armed reactionary zealots, we should keep a status quo that allows a potentially exponential growth in the numbers of armed reactionary zealots?

    I suppose that if you feel you need to arm yourself against death squads, you should do it sooner rather than later. Or if you feel that the police would turn a blind eye rather than be gunned down by automatic fire.

    I'm not unconcerned by those things myself. But I don't see that as a valid argument for doing nothing besides, perhaps, meditating on the enlightenment of humankind.

    That said, where I do see your argument as relevant is in a legislative danger: passage of laws that grandfather in the ownership of assault weapons. That would, at the very least (as it did before), create a huge swell in both inventory and sales prior to the ban going into effect, and also lock in the status quo. If they're banned, they should be banned, period, or for collectors, kept only if they're permanently disabled. But the danger of that is just as great whether or not we ruffle the feathers of reactionaries: their feathers have been ruffled into war bonnets for a long, long time.

    Peace & joy--
    Conrad
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  53. Gratitude expressed by:

  54. TopTop #30
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Gun Control Now!

    Hotspring, my answers are interspersed throughout your commentaries, below:
    ---------------

    First of all there are differing reasons to legitimately go to war as a country that I think would be necessary and justifiable but the lies and deceit that got us to go to Iraq are not what I would say were legitimate.

    An honest defense would be.

    Edward's Reply:
    Relevance? I’m talking about your lack of consistency. You are supposedly some kind of a peace-loving man but you suddenly become a gun-toting, 2nd Amendment fanatic when it comes to the home front. Why the double standard?
    ----------

    The way you stated to me has the implication that somehow, out of the blue, that I for some reason, unbeknownst to me, have an obligation to come-up with a solution. (?)... ...Say what!???... ...Excuse me but; where did that come from? I never professed to have a “solution”.

    Edward's Reply:
    Whoa! We ALL have an obligation, Hotspring. Since when have you not been aware of that??? We ALL have an obligation as American citizens, many obligations, in fact. We are ALL responsible for our civic participation, or lack thereof. We are ALL responsible for the environment. We are ALL responsible for many different things as citizens. The idea that a person only has obligations to him or herself (and screw everyone else) strikes me, very clearly, as being the attitude of rich people, Republicans, conservatives, Libertarians, and right wing Christians. So these are your true colors finally rising to the surface in our debate?
    --------

    And as you said: Perhaps...

    Edward's Reply:
    That is really tragic to hear. You are proud of a backward attitude that needs to change! Or we will continue to see the dead bodies of little children pile up just like they did in Connecticut.
    ---------

    And as you said:

    “Genocide” you say? Are you trying to lay a guilt trip on me?... ... If you are, it is not working or helping to formulate a reasonable and realistic solution.

    Edward's Reply:
    No guilt trip intentioned, just your civic responsibility and your sense of reasoning, both of which I seriously question. When a boss tells an employee that he or she hasn’t been doing their job, there is no guilt trip going on there at all. And the employee knows it. In the case of gun control, We Americans are shirking our civic duty. But the consequences do not involve getting fired from a job. The consequences are many more dead Americans because we don’t have adequate gun control.
    ----------

    Then you went on with:

    I agree, for that matter, add other like guns too. The ammo is another subject that is more complex because many bolt action hunting rifles use the same cartridges as do the “assault” rifles. Banning the armor piercing rounds is a no-brainier but hollow-point bullets do have a legitimate hunting use.

    Edward's Reply:
    Congratulations. Our first instance of common ground. I had not even thought of the idea of armor piercing rounds. You have educated me a little. Thank you.
    ---------

    You also said: …
    That is one thing that I had in mind. It is what it will ultimately take to lower the "EGA"

    Edward's Reply:
    Second instance. Progress!
    ----------

    Also you said
    Edward, I agree with that. Now we are closer to the same wavelength.

    Edward's Reply:
    Yes! Three and counting.
    -----------

    Then you said this:
    Don't fret, they are not getting any “help” of any consequence from me.

    Edward's Reply:
    I’m so happy to hear that. Thank you.
    --------

    You asked:
    I ask myself that same question on many social and political topics, I believe the word, in a nutshell is: fear.

    Edward's Reply:
    I agree (four points of common ground).
    ----------

    I agree with the thought (what I think you are basically saying somewhere in that post) (that) America needs to do some soul searching for the peaceful inner being that exists somewhere under all that armor and use it; and the sooner the better.

    Edward's Reply:
    Huzzah!
    -----------

    You also said:

    I hope we don't make the mistake of putting the horse before the carriage and only concentrate on what is ultimately all guns eventually being prohibited.

    Edward's Reply:
    Ah! Your true fear unearthed: THE PROHIBITION OF ALL GUNS!!! We are light-years away from that EVER happening. And we have a lot of work ahead of us. Look at how difficult it is to reach a budget deal with the Republican-Tea Party. Those same folks will NEVER support any kind of gun control.
    --------------

    We must also consider the lack of mental health care and the warning signs that are vastly more prevalent in individuals that commit mass murder with guns because they will use whatever is closest at hand to do their killing with because, ultimately, when that deranged person if left untreated and/or isolated, that person would just as likely use something just as deadly as a gun anyway.

    Edward's Reply:
    Agreed. Five points.

    But to state this is not a reason to avoid implementing gun control. The healthcare issue is a separate problem altogether, although we might disagree in this particular hairsplitting point. And, thanks to President Obama, we have some remotely sufficient healthcare program very slowly kicking in as we speak.

    The enormous problem of gun control is so big and varied, that several attack points are necessary to address it successfully.
    -------------

    If we simply remove the first weapon of choice there would be a second, third, etc because the problem which is ultimately a mentality will forever be inadequately addressed. That being said, it is a reasonable idea to start with banning sales of certain guns and ammo clips and such to minimize the threat at large.

    Edward's Reply:
    Partial agreement. Six points of common ground.
    The dynamic of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, etc, is not a permanent problem. After just one year of implementing new public policy for gun control, the process of evaluation can take place. This is crucial because an assessment of new statute (whether it is gun control or anything else) can show us where the new rules are deficient. We can fix those problems by modifying the new laws. If gun fanatics think they’re being smart by skirting the new gun control laws somehow, that can easily be addressed by covering up those loopholes, like guns-shows, simple modifications, and so on.
    ------------

    So do you think I can represent the local NRA after saying that?

    Edward's Reply:
    Nope!

    Thank you,

    Edward
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