Sudden oak die off

[Sonomamark]

It's a scam, folks. At this time, there is no proven control for SODS.

AGRIFOS is the only clinically proven control for sudden oak death and can be ordered online at www.nonsense.com or GIVE-MEMONEY-YOUSAPS.

[nhcal]

It's a scam, folks. At this time, there is no proven control for SODS.

AGRIFOS is fully registered and Labelled for the CONTROL of Sudden Oak Death. Also, I have copies of the data and would be happy to email them to anyone that is interested.

[nhcal]

Folks, you should know that Klinger's farcical escapade in the Laguna Wetlands Park a few years ago...

1) "Treated" completely healthy trees by putting whitewash on them--including several species that aren't even susceptible to Sudden Oak Death.

2) Did so without permission from the City, which would have denied it if he had sought it.

Klinger is an atmospheric scientist. He doesn't know anything about trees. He's just a wacko who likes to get his name in the paper.

The Bohemian was completely sucked in by this charletan, and didn't even bother to ask anyone who knows anything about Sudden Oak Death. It's embarrassing.

What are your credentials?

[nhcal]

Just a quick clarification.
Everything I've heard is Bay Laurel harbors the spores, but does not die from SOD. I recently heard that it's the main host plant and Oaks near Bay have higher infection rates.

Autumn Summers

Autumn,
I am a Cornell University trained plant pathologist. In my opinion, as the first consulting arborist to discover this "tree decline" in 1994, the infection stage of the decline is secondary. There is alot of evidence that this infection has been in the forest ecosystem for thousands of years. The question arises, why is it expressing itself now?

In a recent study, done by UC Berkeley no incidence of SOD was found where there has been a fire within the past 50 years. In addition, fires are proven to add calcium and phosphorus to forest soils. Calcium is proven to suppress phytophthora zoospores in soils.

Agrifos is potassium phosphite and provides an immune system response in trees or host mediated response. In scientific trials conducted here in Sonoma County potassium phosphite stimulated the immune systems of SOD affected trees and allowed them to compartmentalize the cankers caused by the fungal infection. However, before infection can take place, the host generally needs to be predisposed by some other factor like acid rain or soil acidification before the pathogen expresses itself.
Studies also proved that stimulating the immune system of trees increases phytoalexins which are natural fungistatic compounds that are normally found in trees.

Bay trees harbor spores but do not die. Since the "immune systems" of bays are not compromised, the fungal agent cannot express itself. The presence of these spores most likely has been present in the forest for thousands of years. P ramorum is most closely related to P lateralis a disease of Port Orford Cedars that was documented in the early 1900's. There is no evidence that P ramorum is an introduced pathogen, most of the evidence is that it is native.

So what we are witnessing is a natural cycle.
If you are interested in copies of this data please contact me offline at 707-781-7235

[nhcal]

It's a scam, folks. At this time, there is no proven control for SODS.

Agrifos is registered and approved for the treatment and control of sudden oak death by the Department of Pesticide Regulation in Sacramento, CA.
period.

[Barry]

Agrifos is registered and approved for the treatment and control of sudden oak death by the Department of Pesticide Regulation in Sacramento, CA.
period.

There appears to be some scientific support for Agrifos being of use in the control of SOD.
Here are some articles I found that may be of interest. While not a panacea, it also does not appear to be a scam.

https://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publicatio...36Kanaskie.pdf

https://forestry.berkeley.edu/sodsym...38Schmidt.html

https://www.cpoabigsur.org/Community...ting_trees.pdf

[nhcal]

I have attached another study. Goto this post on the website to view it.

There appears to be some scientific support for Agrifos being of use in the control of SOD.
Here are some articles I found that may be of interest. While not a panacea, it also does not appear to be a scam.

https://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publicatio...36Kanaskie.pdf

https://forestry.berkeley.edu/sodsym...38Schmidt.html

https://www.cpoabigsur.org/Community...ting_trees.pdf

[nicofrog]

I feel this almost as strongly about this as I do about the marines "Needing" to kill children every week in Iraq. Also the death and extinction of frogs world wide is trajic. Not to mention global climate change,glacier melt affecting ocean currents,etc.
This brings up our question of BURNING being a natural part if lifecycle in California, inconvenient for humans, but quite possibly nessesary, maybe the "Native " people had some wisdom burning dead diseased branches right around the oaks they cherished, and ashes provide readily available nutrients.
as the scientist-arborist who discovered SOD mentioned " In a recent study, done by UC Berkeley no incidence of SOD was found where there has been a fire within the past 50 years. In addition, fires are proven to add calcium and phosphorus to forest soils. Calcium is proven to suppress phytophthora zoospores in soils."
It could be a natural cycle of nature, or it could be increased U,V.,acid rain, smog, or even the lack of sacred song.Or just humans "Protecting" themselfs from fire.
I intend to focus every second of my energy until I die on helping children
to use ancient tools,beauty,and modern science to help them feel a loving and confident relationship with Nature. Remembering that we are Nature as well,even our misteaks ,are obviously a part of human nature.
There is a wonderful arborist-Tree trimmer tree nurturer named Kevin
who lives in Freestone right across 12 from where the occidental boho-highway heads north through freestone toward occidental.
He and his family live right there and he does some great work with trees
I have his no. and will share is if any one who wants to get out and actually help some trees.
Unfortunately SOD effects Madrone,Huckleberry and many other slow growing hardwoods on our coastal range. I don't believe the redwoods will be much of a worry,it is totaly normal for redwood to put out a billion saplings and suckers,and many will die off and create even more ditritus for the bigger ones to live on. Redwoods have their own Friendly micillia that grow around them and digest their relatively toxic ditritus so that only they can eat it,not a happy environment for any but a very few hardy species.
What a beautiful and giant mystery we live in.
thank you all for caring so much. Nico

Who else has noticed the oaks that have died in the last season? There is a huge number of them in the Occidental / Bitner road area. Is it sudden oak?
Teresa

[nhcal]

Please read the attached documents regarding Fire and SOD.
(Attachments are available on this post on the website)

[Sonomamark]

I note that you have changed the subject, avoiding contending my post about Klinger's qualifications and what he did in the Laguna Wetlands Park a few years ago. So I will take as granted that Klinger doesn't have credentials on this issue and that his action in the LWP demonstrates he doesn't have a clue about SODS.

But: to credential. The issue isn't mine--I'm not trying to sell anything. It's the credentials and claims of those who are trying to make money out of an environmental crisis--ecological war profiteers, in essence. BTW: while we're talking about disclosure of qualifications, let me first of all grant that a plant pathology degree from Cornell is impressive in the abstract, and then ask the other, obvious question: do you make money from the producers or by the sale of AGRIFOS? Because you sure keep posting the link with the claim that "only" this product "controls" SODS.

As for my credentials and bias, here they are: First, for the land and water of Sonoma County. I've been working in environmental protection here for a long while, on issues ranging from River and watershed protection to land use, planning, vineyard development and transportation.

Second, for critical thinking and the scientific approach. I believe it doesn't help us to solve problems like SODS to have the conversation clogged up with commercials, nor to provide false hope when so much more needs to be learned to address this very challenging and serious issue.

Now, I've read the posted material on this phosphonate product. There appears to be some preliminary indication--as I acknowledged in my very first post--that phosphate nutrition appears to have some effect in increasing resistance to SODS. But to project that as being "control", I would argue, is an excessive stretch. "Control" implies that the disease no longer spreads, and does not kill treated individuals. The literature does not substantiate this. All it shows is the equivalent of an improved immune response in affected trees--not a big shock, as a well-nourished organism of any type has better disease resistance than does a malnourished one.

This seems to imply that, while not a solution, this product may help reduce the speed of demise of infected trees. That doesn't really constitute "control" by any definition I'm aware of.

We must also ask the question about associated environmental impacts. Massive use of this product would introduce large volumes of nutrient phosphate--a significant pollutant--into the watersheds of our region. The Laguna de Santa Rosa, receiving water of the entire Santa Rosa Plain, is already 303d listed under the Clean Water Act as Impaired for phosphates. Nutrient pollution contributes to eutrophication, reduction in dissolved oxygen, and associated undermining of the survival of cold-water fisheries, particularly salmonids. We happen to have three federally listed endangered salmonid species in our region (not just the Laguna drainage, but the balance of the West County as well).

So here, in summary, is where I am with this. This is a serious problem, and isn't helped by one-line magic-wand claims with links to a product for sale. That seems to imply, "go back to sleep, we've got the problem solved". It's counterproductive and, I would argue, not logically or scientifically defensible.

Well, there you have it. Do with it what you will.



SonomaMark

What are your credentials?

[nhcal]

Lee Klinger is a famous expert 20 year veteran of the National Center For Atmospheric Research in Colorado. He has researched forest decline issues worldwide and is published a peer reviewed by such notable universities like Oxford. His reputation is impeccable in the world of forest ecology.
Agrifos is a phosphite not a phosphate- they are chemically different. Phosphites were developed for the very reason you mention-phosphate pollution of water. Phosphites do not create these problems . If you need more information please do not hesitate to ask more questions.

[Sonomamark]

Q1--why would an atmospheric scientist know anything about forest decline?

Q2--why would a supposed expert "treat" trees which can't even get the SODS fungus, and do so without asking the property owner--while being sure to contact the press?

A quick Google shows a great deal of quotes in news publications by Klinger as an "Independent Scientist", but pretty much nothing published in peer-reviewed journals or affiliated with any credible institution. Fame can as easily be created by self-promotion as by qualification.

Conversely, I do not see our best experts from UC Berkeley and UC Davis Ag Extension, who are actively researching SODS, making claims anything like those of Dr. Klinger. Those scientists *are* subject to the standards of peer review and don't make claims until they are warranted by the findings of rigorous research.

If I am incorrect in re: threat of water quality impacts of phosphite, I'm happy to hear it, although my understanding is that this is due to binding of phosphite to soil particles. Not sure what concentrations that can lead to, and whether or not saturation with phosphite will eventually result in runoff.

As I said, my prejudice is for science-based approaches to problems. And disclosure of commercial relationships: that's how you get truth in advertising. So: do you or do you not make money from AGRIFOS?

Lee Klinger is a famous expert 20 year veteran of the National Center For Atmospheric Research in Colorado. He has researched forest decline issues worldwide and is published a peer reviewed by such notable universities like Oxford. His reputation is impeccable in the world of forest ecology.
Agrifos is a phosphite not a phosphate- they are chemically different. Phosphites were developed for the very reason you mention-phosphate pollution of water. Phosphites do not create these problems . If you need more information please do not hesitate to ask more questions.

[Momcat]

I applaud you for taking the time to discuss this subject however; I am concerned about using this site to denigrate people and their practices. Nevertheless, I do have an opinion about SOD. I have lived in the west county hills on my 5 1/2 acres of woods for 17 years. About 15 years ago, while up in an 80' crane I noticed and photographed a startling die off pattern in the tan oaks, which are prominent in the surrounding hills and on my property. I contacted the county and spoke to several people about my observation. Because I had no 'credentials' I was ignored. Since that time we've lost dozens of trees on this property and hundreds more on the surrounding acres. If we listen only to people with 'credentials' we are cutting off a vital segment of the population who could alert us to changes in their surrounding environment. We have tried all of the suggested methods for SOD and I am sorry to say that they do not appear to be saving trees. I believe we applied these methods to our big oaks too little, too late. When we've taken down the dead and dying trees we've noticed that ambrosia beetles have been working on most of these trees in addition to the SOD pathogen. We neglected our trees for years, rarely cutting back dying limbs that then rot back into the trunk further weakening and rotting the tree. We disturbed the surrounding soil on several of the massive tan oaks that died when building our home. All of these things contributed to the core weakness and ability of the trees to resist disease. Trees need to be maintained or they will break down as nature intended them to do. You don't need a biology degree to understand this basic concept. I am heartbroken every time we lose a tree and blame myself in part, for my apathetic attitude in years past. I appreciate the articles posted on the relationship of fire to SOD, thank you so much!

I note that you have changed the subject, avoiding contending my post about Klinger's qualifications and what he did in the Laguna Wetlands Park a few years ago. So I will take as granted that Klinger doesn't have credentials on this issue and that his action in the LWP demonstrates he doesn't have a clue about SODS.

But: to credential. The issue isn't mine--I'm not trying to sell anything. It's the credentials and claims of those who are trying to make money out of an environmental crisis--ecological war profiteers, in essence. BTW: while we're talking about disclosure of qualifications, let me first of all grant that a plant pathology degree from Cornell is impressive in the abstract, and then ask the other, obvious question: do you make money from the producers or by the sale of AGRIFOS? Because you sure keep posting the link with the claim that "only" this product "controls" SODS.

As for my credentials and bias, here they are: First, for the land and water of Sonoma County. I've been working in environmental protection here for a long while, on issues ranging from River and watershed protection to land use, planning, vineyard development and transportation.

Second, for critical thinking and the scientific approach. I believe it doesn't help us to solve problems like SODS to have the conversation clogged up with commercials, nor to provide false hope when so much more needs to be learned to address this very challenging and serious issue.

Now, I've read the posted material on this phosphonate product. There appears to be some preliminary indication--as I acknowledged in my very first post--that phosphate nutrition appears to have some effect in increasing resistance to SODS. But to project that as being "control", I would argue, is an excessive stretch. "Control" implies that the disease no longer spreads, and does not kill treated individuals. The literature does not substantiate this. All it shows is the equivalent of an improved immune response in affected trees--not a big shock, as a well-nourished organism of any type has better disease resistance than does a malnourished one.

This seems to imply that, while not a solution, this product may help reduce the speed of demise of infected trees. That doesn't really constitute "control" by any definition I'm aware of.

We must also ask the question about associated environmental impacts. Massive use of this product would introduce large volumes of nutrient phosphate--a significant pollutant--into the watersheds of our region. The Laguna de Santa Rosa, receiving water of the entire Santa Rosa Plain, is already 303d listed under the Clean Water Act as Impaired for phosphates. Nutrient pollution contributes to eutrophication, reduction in dissolved oxygen, and associated undermining of the survival of cold-water fisheries, particularly salmonids. We happen to have three federally listed endangered salmonid species in our region (not just the Laguna drainage, but the balance of the West County as well).

So here, in summary, is where I am with this. This is a serious problem, and isn't helped by one-line magic-wand claims with links to a product for sale. That seems to imply, "go back to sleep, we've got the problem solved". It's counterproductive and, I would argue, not logically or scientifically defensible.

Well, there you have it. Do with it what you will.



SonomaMark

[Treasure]

There has been so much negatiive talk about Lee Klinger on this list that I feel sad and want to raise the level of understanding and harmony in our community.

Lee has a Ph.D. in Geography and a Masters in Environmental Science from, I believe, the University of Colorado. Over 50 of his peer-reviewed studies have been published.

Lee has never recommended Agrifos, which may give a temporary boost to the plant or tree but does nothing to improve soil health. He recommends Azamite, because it replaces minerals that soils have lost.

I helped whitewash an oak tree in the Laguna a few years ago, with calcium, lime, and oyster shells. There was nothing wrong with the tree. It was simply a demonstration and part of the workshop that the organizers of the Green Festival invited Lee to give. When invited, he told them that he'd like to whitewash a tree, they said fine they'd make all the arrangements, and apparently they didn't request permission or notify the right people. Humans began whitewashing trees long ago as a way to improve and maintain their health.

Lee has never asked me to write an article for him. When I learned about his work, I wanted to share it with others. I give him a call from time to time, and occasionally write an article.

If you have any questions about Lee and his work, would you be willing to consider asking him from now on? His phone # is 831 917-7070. He plans to join this list, so you will be able to direct any questions to him here, too.

Best,
Tara Treasurefield

[Treasure]

Mark,
When I attempted to reply to your posts entitled "Klinger: no credential, no credibility" about a month ago, I ran into some technical difficulties. Since there are many factual errors in your posts, I am trying again, in the interests of fairness and accuracy.

You wrote: "The Bohemian was completely sucked in by this charletan, and didn't even bother to ask anyone who knows anything about Sudden Oak Death. It's embarrassing."

As a matter of fact, when I wrote articles for the Bohemian and Pacific Sun about Lee Klinger's work with trees, I interviewed and quoted several people that "know something about Sudden Oak Death," including University of California plant pathologists David Rizzo and Matteo Garbellotto, who are science advisors to the California Oak Mortality Task Force; plant pathologist Ted Swiecki; and forest ranger Pat Robards.

You wrote: [Klinger] "Treated" completely healthy trees [in the Laguna] by putting whitewash on them--including several species that aren't even susceptible to Sudden Oak Death."

I was there, I helped whitewash the tree. ONE tree. It was a demonstration for the workshop that Lee Klinger was invited to present at the Green Festival. He has said himself that most of the trees that are sick and dying don't even have Sudden Oak Death. The ancient practice of whitewashing trees with mineralized rock salt, hydrated lime, and crushed oyster shells helps prevent disease and restore sick trees to health.

You wrote: [Klinger whitewashed the trees] "without permission from the City, which would have denied it if he had sought it."

When Lee Klinger was invited to present the workshop, he told the organizers that he would like to whitewash a tree. They told him that would be fine, but they apparently neglected to request or secure permission from the appropriate authorities.

You wrote: "Klinger is an atmospheric scientist. He doesn't know anything about trees. He's just a wacko who likes to get his name in the paper."

Lee Klinger has a Ph.D. in Geography from the University of Colorado. Over 50 of his peer-reviewed studies have been published. For more than 20 years, he has led research projects in forest ecology worldwide for the University of Oxford, the Chinese Academy of Sciences, and the National Center for Atmospheric Research.

Sincerely,
Tara Treasurefield