My son was racially profiled in Sebastopol on Main St.

[zenekar]

From a friend, not a member of wacco to whom I've been sending this thread: “Thanks to both Sabrina and Miles for taking the time to explain (for the umpteenth time) what anyone with a curious and motivated mind could have known for themselves. The thing about ignorance is that the people displaying it have no idea that they are. When it comes to passive racism I lost the patience to explain decades ago so admire those folks who still willingly give of their time and energy to do so. It’s a thankless and frustrating job.” from Justice, almost 40 years in West County watching the white folks.

____

I've been reading people's opinions on this thread and responses are sadly not surprising. Knowing Sabrina and the family, I can appreciate why she considers that Olembe was profiled. She knows racism because she and her family experience the institutionalized racism ingrained in this society since the Europeans stepped onto this continent. If one doesn't experience racism directly one doesn't see it, feel it... Best way to get to know folks and learn firsthand about racism is to step outside one's comfort zone in white communities, and spend quality time with folks to understand how, and how often racism effects people of color (vs. those of the lighter skin persuasion, known as white folks).

In addition to resources previously mentioned here, there is a group called Racist Justice Allies which meets monthly, dealing with issues of white privilege and racism. Contact Carl Patrick for more info, [email protected]
____

[nicofrog]

Olembe!
sorry that happened ,I've been profiled for long hair, funky old cars, and freaky ways all my life
actually,it was probably the Kalimba that set them off. Pure Joy,and freedom of expression can be threatening to some raised without it. Driving in a fully decorated Art Car is interesting, about once a week someone flips you off and shouts obscenely.. weird huh?
In Cotati,they always ask me if I have drugs,and can they search my car?...I resist the temptation to say"why do you need some?"
and just say "no sir" and "no sir."

In a way, cops are in the profiling business..this is not a good thing but they are looking for trouble,they know prisons are full of
people of color, and weirdos like me, so when they come across us,they probably think us more likely to be jail-bait.
None of this is O K or should remain that way. there are more African Americans in jail now, than there were slaves
during that period. (mostly victim-less crimes)
Major Native American activists are still in jail today without sufficient evidence.

Mexican Americans(yes Mexico is part of the American continent)are continually sent south when this was their state before it was (Ours? European white Christians) We are ALL boat people here.

I think I'll take my Kalimba and wander around the pubs around 1:00 am and see if I get in trouble.
Maybe we just need to get them used to it... But I'll be SURE to bring my I.D. I've heard they can detain us indefinitely without it,
Some things have IMPROVED since the sixties however,while othrs have gotten worse.
and I guess Its up to us to STAND UP for better treatment by the "Authorities" that prevail here.

However ,we'd be a LOT worse off without them.there is a dangerous "tweaker" underground here that will steal and damage anything they can...(use the back roads as a dump) I saw one go beserk one night in sebastopol passed me in his big four wheel drive, ran RIGHT over two cars
in the middle lane by Sushi Tozai (going like 70 miles an hour,then flipped his truck over into a side street, and fell out the door.
two cop cars and a sheriff had him surrounded in 3 min. and one of them was wearing full riot gear and had a very scary looking automatic weapon. When they need to ,they can be fast and accurate(or not) and powerful. They will also help you if you have a heart attack etc. trained in it. this service keeps a certain sanity here
a high tech,"wild west" would be a scary place to live.
It wasn't even in the paper the next day.

So PLAY ON BROTHER, call a few of us and we'll become the playing fools and the police will bergin to see the difference
between threats and treats.
Important topic Most of us have little inner profile mechanisms "what's HE doing in this neighborhood at this time of night" who hasn't thought that thought. liars say they never think that.. I am not a racist..but that old tape will run in my head.
must be the janitor...
Nico

[joehogan]

(quote from Nico) (I think I'll take my Kalimba and wander around the pubs around 1:00 am and see if I get in trouble. Maybe we just need to get them used to it... But I'll be SURE to bring my I.D. I've heard they can detain us indefinitely without it,)

You do not have to show ID unless you are arrested. The police have the right to ask you for your name and address, whether you are under arrest or not. It is an offence to refuse to give your name and address and if you are arrested, the police may refuse to release you on bail if you don't. It is also an offence to give a false name and address. You only have to show proof of ID if you are actually arrested.

After you give name and address you have the right to silence.

The police officer must tell you their name, rank and where they're stationed if you ask them. They are supposed to have their ID badges on display at all times while they're on duty.

[anathstryx]

. I've heard for years and years and witnessed racial profiling in Sonoma County (my husband has been a victim often). But now when it starts happening to my kids it's hitting a raw nerve!!!! Just want people to be aware of this who are not aware.

I've got a question. Is there a Citizen Police Oversight group in Sebastopol? Seems like I see a lot of complaints of various types here on Wacco about the Sebastopol police, (pedestrian harrassment, stings, racial profiling, etc.). It seems that I've also seen a message or two, probably posted by Barry, from Police Chief Weaver responding to some concerns brought up by Wacco-ites in the past (forgive me if I'm mistaken about this...I'm an elder with about one good brain cell to work with) so it seems he is, at least on the surface, interested in dialog with the community. A citizen police oversight group would have more weight taking valid concerns to the police chief to be addressed rather than individuals complaining at the watch commander's desk.

There is no shortage of activists in Waccoland. If there isn't an oversight group already in place...well............? If there is, folks should voice their concerns with them.

Anathstryx

[Sabrina]

You do not have to show ID unless you are arrested.

. I would still say it's safer to carry your id, don't you? Because if they think you match a description and the cop decides to assume maybe you're lying about your name, couldn't they arrest you or "hold" you to prove who you are?

["Mad" Miles]

There is no Police Advisory Board in Sebastopol. After the Jeremiah Chass murder by the Sheriff's and several other police induced fatalities, the PACH was formed in Santa Rosa.

Police Accountability Clinic and Helpline:

https://pachline.org/

(707) 542-7224

Based on my brother's experience with trying to work with the Sebastopol Police Department, he reports that Chief Weaver loves to talk and does it well. He's not so interested in listening.

As for the "Mumia is a copkiller" charge, anyone following the case knows that that is only technically true, in that that is what he was convicted of. But the case, and its history is much more complex. He has yet to be granted a second trial. That looks unlikely. What is most likely is that his sentence will be reduced to life, and hopefully commuted one day.

There's plenty of available evidence to cast doubt on his conviction, for anyone willing to take the time to look at it. It's rhetorical bomb-throwing to call him a copkiller. But that doesn't seem to stop some people. In fact, it seems to encourage them. Same goes for Leonard Peltier and others.

But what we've learned from The Innocence Project is that a death penalty conviction, is no guarantee of guilt. There's a reason the conservative governor of Illinois abolished the death penalty there. The number of reversed convictions showed him that our justice system is more flawed than many want to admit. And many of those flaws have to do with the inequities of Race in our country.

Finally, what are our rights with the police, and what the police may or may not do to us when we assert those rights. These two things are often contradictory.

The police often operate with impunity, as case after case shows. If there are no witnesses around, the results may be quite different than if there are. Every situation is unique, and has to be responded to as such. And if one is without social or economic status/power, the results are pretty sure to be different than if one evidently has such things.

That, of course, does not make it right, it's very, very wrong, unjust, but it's the reality of the society we live in.

My approach to Non-Violent Direct Action political protest is to, "run, run, run away, live to fight another day". Keep the action rolling but know when to withdraw, when the groups stamina is spent, or the Forces of Order have such and upper hand and they've started the beatdowns and other violence, and come back another day. This is tricky and I've seen it done badly many a time.

When it comes to individual encounters with the cops, on private matters, it's to stay schtum, cooperate, hope for the best. Totally sucks, but why give them an excuse to go to town on me? Discretion is the better part of valor.

The Police Accountability movement calls for better training, ethnic, gender and class awareness, and especially the need to evaluate for mental disturbance and not resorting to immediate use of force whenever challenged (which is pretty much SOP these days, with inevitable and consistently tragic results) better documentation of police and perp actions (dashboard cams, etc.), transparency when it comes to records of events (so that families of victims know exactly what happened, and have the evidence they need to prosecute if warranted, you can see how well that goes over with the cops!?), Citizen Review and Advisory Panels, Complaint Hotlines, trained teams of mental health counselors available to respond to decomping individuals, rather than an exclusive police response.

All of these reforms/measures tend to be fought tooth and nail by law enforcement. We've got a long way to go. And of course, the old mantra of, "We have no money!", rules. Even if almost unlimited expenditures on police and military goes without saying.

Everybody knows who investigates police conduct in the case of an incident involving fatality or alleged abuse? A neighboring police agency, that's who. Does that make sense to you?

[Dixon]

As for the "Mumia is a copkiller" charge, anyone following the case knows that that is only technically true, in that that is what he was convicted of.

I would put it more strongly than that. Convicting someone of a crime, in this case murder, simply does not mean he/she is a murderer, even in a technical sense. It would only mean that in a world in which there was never a false conviction. And when the one convicted is a person of a minority race AND a progressive journalist/activist who is a thorn in the side of those doing the convicting, the likelihood that he/she is guilty shrinks considerably. I don't know whether Mumia killed that cop, but I do know one thing: there needs to be a fair trial, which hasn't happened yet. Just the simple fact that a court reporter testified that she heard Judge Sabo say, "I'm going to help them fry the nigger", not to mention numerous other problems, should invalidate the trial.

And, something I haven't heard anyone mention: What if he killed the cop in self-defense, or in defense of his brother? Don't we all have the right to defend ourselves or others from unprovoked physical attack? I'm not talking about cops using force to stop someone from raping, assault, murdering etc.; I'm talking about cops doing the raping, assault, murder, etc. We have a basic right to physically defend ourselves, up to and including shooting someone dead, if we're attacked by a butcher, baker or candlestick maker. Doesn't this basic right of self-defense apply when cops are trying to beat or kill us? If the answer is "No; cops are exempt", well, isn't that an indication of the degree to which we're living in a police state?

[joehogan]

. I would still say it's safer to carry your id, don't you? Because if they think you match a description and the cop decides to assume maybe you're lying about your name, couldn't they arrest you or "hold" you to prove who you are?

I don't carry ID when I walk. If everybody carries ID then it might as well be the Law of the Land. America is the only country in the world where you don't need ID I believe. Bravo America! Let's keep it that way by exercising our rights. When a policeman asks me for identification, I point at my own face. This is me, I tell them. If they arrest me, I'll have my day in court, and God willing, the city will rue the day.

[Imagery]

An awful lot of projection and painting with a broad brush here. No surprise really, given the topics involved.

Couldn't agree more, Mr. Miles.

"One thing that is clear is that most cops spend most of their time at work with absolutely nothing to do, yet they're trained to anticipate danger at any moment...so they are bored out of their minds, and always looking for an excuse to go into action. With the results that we see, over and over again.

"The cop could have beaten him down, shot and killed him right there, and it would have been his word that was trusted by his superiors, the court, and the court of public opinion."

Can you supply us numbers to back this up? Let's focus on Sebastopol - how many police interactions have there been in the last year? I'm talking stops where they run the person for wants & warrants, issuing tickets, arresting suspects, any and all law enforcement interactions. What percentage of the stops have involved minorities? How many times in the last year have there been officer involved shootings? How many complaints of excessive force? How many beat downs, shootings and killings have the police participated in around this town?

Furthermore, of course the police in an all-white town are racist.

This comment used a wide-angle paint sprayer to make sure she painted them all. Even after:

Most of the older Police I have dealt with are much more balanced people...

It may be hard to get an unbiased jury in Sebastopol, but then, 99% of cases settle before trial anyway once the judge rules that there exists a preponderance of the evidence. Using the courts is a viable option for getting results.

The results:

It's easy for them (the cops) to develop an us-vs.-them attitude...

Here's how I handle my thankfully infrequent encounters with police when they've pulled me over, or at demonstrations. I maintain a calm, "Yes Officer, No Officer", demeanor. I do not comment or argue with them. I only answer their questions and briefly as I can. I wait for them to direct me, I do not volunteer information or offer suggestions. I do not criticize them. Anybody who knows me must understand how difficult that is for me!?

What makes it so difficult? You treat them with respect, they'll treat you the same way. In my experience since moving back to Northern California, I've found that if I cooperate with them, they tend to respect my time, and detain me for the least amount of time possible. Jerk them around, make their job more difficult, like this suggestion:

"When a policeman asks me for identification, I point at my own face. This is me, I tell them. If they arrest me, I'll have my day in court, and God willing, the city will rue the day."

and this person will be detained (if not arrested) and spend a much LONGER time interacting with the police. For someone who obviously loathes police, this seems confrontational and counter-intuitive. It also seems like a very good way to reinforce the "us vs. them" mentality which leads to the racist behaviors.



I sent Sabrina a private message, which she encouraged me to share here.


I'm sincerely grateful that you came back and followed up in this thread. I completely and wholeheartedly believe that your son was doing NOTHING wrong.

The original post brought back memories of my late teens and early 20's which were spent in Southern California (Oxnard, CA) - a densely populated Latino town. Being of Latino descent myself, I was subjected to rousting on several occasions. Publicly, I gave a single example which was not to belabor the point, but to say I've been there.

I've also been handcuffed, forced to sit on the curb lit up like a street criminal, lined up while a witness drove by, for the same "vehicle break-in" charge of which your son was suspected. Ironically, I had just left a church group meeting, and while I protested my innocence and asked them to check with the church, it did no good. Ultimately I was cleared after the lineup, but no apology was made - they were doing their job. I have about half a dozen stories similar to this one during those early years, but I persevered.

I went to a local Neighborhood Watch meeting, with the intent of confronting the police officers - but instead wound up opening lines of communication with them. I opened my mind and heart, I listened to them, and they listened to me and my concerns. Long story short, I communicated with them, let them know how I felt, and joined the Neighborhood Watch/Patrol. They got to know me, and I never got hassled after that.

The point I'm trying to make is that we (as a community) need to open a heartfelt dialogue - have community meetings regarding the issue of racism and racial profiling in the community. I know it exists, I do not deny or in any way blind myself to racism and social judgement being rampant in America. However, that being said, I'd like to see something other than a lawsuit come out of this.

Lawsuits simply put people on the defensive - they close ranks, and it only serves to generate more suspicion and "us vs. them" attitude in the minds of the police "brotherhood". It does nothing for either side, really. As one post pointed out, that with preponderance of the evidence, most cases settle before trial. What they didn't point out is that most cases that settle do so without any admission of guilt. What they also failed to point out is that in the end, the citizens wind up paying the bill for the wrongdoing of the police, therefore there is no real accountability on the part of the officers.

I'm sorry to read about what happened to your son, but hopefully we can use this and other incidents for a positive purpose.

["Mad" Miles]

Imagery,

If you want stats on SPD conduct, I suggest you ask them. I doubt anyone else is collecting that data. I'm not, I don't get paid to do it. As for stats on the ethnic makeup of those rousted, I doubt even the SPD is collecting that. From my news reading, it seems police departments are loath to document such things. They don't want it held against them in a court of law. If you don't ask, and collect the info, it can't be used against you. That seems to be the policy.

In the links I provided and from easily googleable information it's pretty simple to come up with numbers. If you think the SPD is somehow special, exempt from the patterns elsewhere, feel free. As I am free to think anyone who holds that view is dreaming.

I'm not saying all cops are bad cops, not in the least. But if you think that all cops are good cops, you're not very attentive to the news. I was personally bum rushed late at night leaving Sebastopol, going north on 116, a couple of years ago, pushed to speed and then pulled over when I tried to let him by. It was a Sheriff.

Until he lit me up, I thought it was an obnoxious adolescent or young adult male who was tailgaiting me just to be an asshole. Turns out I was right, just didn't realize at first it was someone with a gun, a badge and an official vehicle who felt it was their job to act that way.

I watched another Sheriff who was in front of me, tail-gate and push someone down River Road, over the speed limit, without using his Christmas Tree lights, in broad daylight about five years ago. I called that one in.

I've been pulled over and given the "attitude test". Other times they acted civil and respectfully business like. I find, as I've already noted here, that the younger ones tend to be the most aggressive and arrogant.

I've written about all of those incidents here. Feel free to search for my more detailed accounts.

"You treat them with respect, they'll treat you the same way." This has sometimes been my experience. Other times it has not.

As I've gotten older, the former has happened more often then when I was young. Which was one of the reasons that I mentioned that they target the young in one of my earlier replies. The other reasons I claim this are from the news, talking to other people and observing the world around me.

Cops who are bullies, and some are, not all, are like all other bullies. They choose targets of opportunity that are no threat to them. In other words, those without social and economic power. Those without resources and recourse to retaliate and cause them discomfort.

From all reports, the means to weed them out, from the internal operations and procedures of police departments, are limited and ineffective, unless they really screw up big time, it gets recorded, goes on YouTube or something, and then deniability is no longer possible. The ones that get caught that way, are just the tip of the iceberg. The iceberg of bully cops, not all cops.

I have political allies who think that by the nature of our society, and the nature of the institution, all cops are brutal, are bullies. I don't bother to argue with them. Their minds are made up. Nothing I say is going to change their mind.

I think most cops are doing a job and for the most part try to do it well. But I also think some of them gravitate towards that job because they want to have officially sanctioned power over others. Those are the ones I worry about. Others want to help, to protect society. Some want to help, protect and have power over. Some just want a steady, decent paying job that has some excitement to it. I'm not their counselor of psychiatrist. I don't speak for them. I only speak based on my experience.

After years of going to demonstrations and non-violent direct actions, it became pretty clear that a certain minority of cops are aching to crack heads and administer pain at any and all opportunities. I've seen it happen too many times to ignore it. And after a while you can spot which of them are jonesing for that violence. It's the same excited look in the eyes, tightness around the jaw, etc. that the assholes had who used to beat people up at random in the pit or outside the club at Punk Rock shows in L.A. in the early eighties. Once you learn to recognize it, you can spot it a mile off.

At demos I've seen it many, many times. In some cops, and yes, in some demonstrators. But the cops are the ones with the pistols, rifles, clubs, shields, body armor, pepper spray, dogs, armored vehicles, water cannons, tear gas, motorcycles and shotguns. Not the demonstrators. Except for my brief time in Europe thirty years ago. Let's just say their demonstration culture is different than ours.

Certainly working in San Quentin gave me a different perspective. Since their job there was to save themselves first, and me second, if things jumped off. That was a very different relationship than out here in "the world".

[podfish]

What makes it so difficult? You treat them with respect, they'll treat you the same way. In my experience since moving back to Northern California, I've found that if I cooperate with them, they tend to respect my time, and detain me for the least amount of time possible.

as Miles points out, that's not always true. He points out that some of the perks of the job are very attractive to those who want "sanctioned power". Also, to those who feel that there's not enough order in society and are moved to do what they can to correct that. I don't want to interact with either of those types if I can avoid it. And even the best of them are still people with occasionally stressful jobs that can lead them to less-than-positive interactions with the public.

I'm reading a subtext, whether you intend it or not, that the police need defending here. I disagree. There haven't been any "off the pigs" comments in this thread. If anything, in general there's too strong a tendency to give them a pass because their jobs can be dangerous. I think that they need a lot of scrutiny (in a good way) because of their casual power over all of us. It's too easy to abuse.

[Imagery]

as Miles points out, that's not always true. He points out that some of the perks of the job are very attractive to those who want "sanctioned power". Also, to those who feel that there's not enough order in society and are moved to do what they can to correct that. I don't want to interact with either of those types if I can avoid it. And even the best of them are still people with occasionally stressful jobs that can lead them to less-than-positive interactions with the public.

I'm reading a subtext, whether you intend it or not, that the police need defending here. I disagree. There haven't been any "off the pigs" comments in this thread. If anything, in general there's too strong a tendency to give them a pass because their jobs can be dangerous. I think that they need a lot of scrutiny (in a good way) because of their casual power over all of us. It's too easy to abuse.

Dear Podfish,

I am NOT here to defend the actions of the police. I know that from time to time they make mistakes, as they are only human. I do agree, there are a few bad apples in the bunch. There is in almost any profession. I know that racism exists, to this day, despite trying to hide it. Despite the progress minorities have made towards eliminating it, it's a slippery beast. The point I'm trying to make is that not ALL cops are NOT trigger-happy, baton using, action-seeking street thugs with power trips. I don't believe it is fair to say things like:

""The cop could have beaten him down, shot and killed him right there, and it would have been his word that was trusted by his superiors, the court, and the court of public opinion."

and

Furthermore, of course the police in an all-white town are racist.

which serve absolutely no purpose but to instill fear and mistrust of ALL police. My questions asking for statistics was more to ask what the likelihood is that this kind of response would happen. Is the likelihood the same as seeing a red car while you're walking down the street (common), or are the odds of this happening closer to the odds of winning the lottery and being struck by lightning on the same day? Is this a rational fear?

All these statements do is instill fear and loathing. Calling the police on their "us vs. them" attitude, while actively promoting an "us vs. them" attitude in the community is hypocrisy at its finest. Perhaps instead of sitting behind our keyboards painting them from afar, how about opening lines of communication, getting the community together to form a police advisory board, studying the statistics, and determining where the problems lie. Perhaps if this officer has a large number of complaints against him, call for action to be taken. When we take the time to give a damn about our community, and step out from behind our keyboards - things can happen. Things can change.

Is there any among you who would dedicate some time to joining a police advisory board? Is there any among you who would take action to help change the attitudes, express your concerns, and spend time to help make the changes you want to see made? Or are all of you content to sit behind your keyboard?

I wonder what Chief Weaver would have to say if he were to put his in? Perhaps I'll drop by and ask him to take a look...

[joehogan]

and this person will be detained (if not arrested) and spend a much LONGER time interacting with the police. For someone who obviously loathes police, this seems confrontational and counter-intuitive. It also seems like a very good way to reinforce the "us vs. them" mentality which leads to the racist behaviors.

You assume a great deal, Imagery. I have several relatives who chose law enforcement as a life path and I totally forgive them for having been violent racists. It's easy now because they're dead, gone to their heavenly reward. The Sebastopol police are angels compared to what these guys were. But everything can get even better. We can all improve (yourself included) My point is all about promoting personal freedom. Of course there needs to be a balance between personal freedom and the rights of others, but if I'm walking down Main Street, I want to be protected from overbearing law enforcement. Unless we exercise our rights we will lose them. I'm not bashing police, I'm simply trying to keep the balance.

["Mad" Miles]

"I don't believe it is fair to say things like", "The cop could have beaten him down, shot and killed him right there..."

The modal term there Imagery is could. I did not write would, or should or probably. The only way your general and repeated concern/complaint makes sense, is if I had.

Since there are a sufficient number of examples where police abuse has happened over the years, and often has been downplayed, excused, lightly punished or not punished at all, I see nothing controversial, or biased, in my original claim. I try to use language carefully and clearly. That's why I used "could", instead of another more emphatic and declarative verb.

You've repeatedly proven here, not just in this thread, that you're a big fan of law and order. As in, "we need more of it!" and "When someone does something wrong, call the cops!" (Except, apparently when the cops have done something wrong. Then a lawsuit just breeds resentment and encourages the bad cops to hide and get worse in their behavior. I find this argument, uh, unpersuasive.)

I'm a fan of law and order when it is not overbearing, unjust, reactive and blind to nuance, circumstance, situation. And where that system of law and order is derived from a truly democratic social process. (Big can'o'worms in that last sentence. No doubt!) I think that's where we disagree.

You appear to accept things as they are, as a given not to be questioned. At least you appear to in your claims and arguments on this board over the last few years.

I would characterize your general stance as, "When in doubt, call the cops. Get the perps, throw the book at them! And if all that is unlikely, there's nothing wrong with a good mob carrying out some frontier justice!"

That stance of yours has always troubled me. And as everybody knows, I've called you on it when you've started to djinn up a posse. (Both literally and figuratively.)

I also think you're falling into a common logic trap here that often happens in arguments. Just because I say "A", does not mean I'm also asserting "Not A". In other words, the opposite of what I've affirmed is not necessarily being denied by me. In simple matters, "The sky is usually blue on a clear, sunny day.", also means, "The sky is usually not green, purple, red or yellow, on a clear, sunny day." (Unless we're on another planet with a different light spectrum, but this isn't a SciFi novel.)

If I say cops have been known to racially profile and are more inclined to be abusive of those with whom they think they can get away with it. It does not follow that I'm saying every cop, or even most cops, are racist abusers. I have not said the latter, I have not meant the latter. The word "some" is implied in the first phrase in the first sentence in this paragraph. General statements are not universal claims, unless specified as such.

That you read me that way says things about you, not me. The terms that come to mind are reactive, hypersensitive, defensive.

Your first response to this thread was to question Sabrina's claim that Olembe's roust last Saturday was racial profiling. Now you're saying that you have no doubt that some cops are racists and brutes.

I've been consistent in my opinions expressed in this thread. So have many others.

Have you?

["Mad" Miles]

How's about some more evidence everybody?

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/06/...determine.html

[Imagery]

How's about some more evidence everybody?

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/06/...determine.html

While we're on the evidence bandwagon - https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...CLES/104111007

Backroom deal anyone? We agree on the fact that there IS racism and social status prejudice in America.

(quoting Imagery)"I don't believe it is fair to say things like", "The cop could have beaten him down, shot and killed him right there..."(end Imagery quote)

The modal term there Imagery is could. I did not write would, or should or probably. The only way your general and repeated concern/complaint makes sense, is if I had.

Since there are a sufficient number of examples where police abuse has happened over the years, and often has been downplayed, excused, lightly punished or not punished at all, I see nothing controversial, or biased, in my original claim. I try to use language carefully and clearly. That's why I used "could", instead of another more emphatic and declarative verb.

Miles, you COULD answer my questions about how often this scenario has happened in Sebastopol, but you won't. The scenario in which a Sebastopol officer would shoot an unarmed man for simply placing his hand on their shoulder in a non-threatening manner - well, I think the odds are around the same as you and I sharing the same DNA. That's what makes your statement so irrational.


What (if anything) are you going to do to change things, Miles? Sit securely behind your keyboard, making "general" statements which bash the cops and paint them (some = ?%) with the racist brush? If someone organized a community meeting with the police, would you attend? I'm sure these questions will go unanswered as well - but I have to ask them. Good friends (your description of your relationship with the family) would do something to promote positive change.

["Mad" Miles]

Imagery,

I've already addressed your request/demand for stats on the SPD. Ask them. Good luck getting an answer. Especially regarding racial profiling.

As for sitting down with the cops and talking nice... Today I was thinking I hadn't given you enough credit for proposing this. But the track record is that it has been tried, time and time again. To little or no avail. In Santa Rosa and parts nearby.

Are you familiar with the history of attempts in this region to establish Police Review Commissions? Mary Moore is a good go-to source for the history of the last forty years.

Did you read all of the information on the PACH website?

I thought not.

Hey, I'm not opposed to trying it once again. Knock yourself out. Go for it!

Me? I'll be a 99'er in a month or two. I need to find gainful employment. That's priority #1.

Looking for a teaching job in this time and place? We shall see.

Hey, if you're willing to hire me to investigate the history of SPD conduct, I'm your man/person!!

At my last job I made nearly $70K a year (minus $8K because of mandatory state furlough days. Still, far more than I ever expected when getting a teaching credential back in '02-'04. At least not just six years into a career as a public school teacher. Long story about how a one year program took two years.)

Can you match that?

Didn't think so.

(And by match, I mean hire me at that rate!)

I've made no demands on your time or efforts save to ask you to to understand and do a little study. Yet you insist on repeating "requests" that I dedicate myself to some cause that I have not, to my knowledge, signed up for. What makes you so presumptuous?

As for "promoting positive change", I've been an activist and organizer for thirty-five years. To the detriment of my own economic success. You have no clue as to what I've given for positive change. Even if I have provided an inkling into the history of my efforts in my writing here. (Just a glimpse, I've never laid out my entire political CV on waccobb.)

So, you're just bloviating brother, and not very effectively.

[zenekar]

This is from the ACLU website. Also an entertaining video presentation of your rights if you're stopped.

https://www.aclu.org/knowyourrights

YOUR RIGHTS
- You have the right to remain silent. If you wish to exercise that right, say so out loud.
- You have the right to refuse to consent to a search of yourself, your car or your home.
- If you are not under arrest, you have the right to calmly leave.
- You have the right to a lawyer if you are arrested. Ask for one immediately.
- Regardless of your immigration or citizenship status, you have constitutional rights.

YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES
- Do stay calm and be polite.
- Do not interfere with or obstruct the police.
- Do not lie or give false documents.
- Do prepare yourself and your family in case you are arrested.
- Do remember the details of the encounter.
- Do file a written complaint or call your local ACLU if you feel your rights have been violated.

more at https://www.aclu.org/knowyourrights
_____

["Mad" Miles]

It looks like this discussion has petered out, and I have no objection to that. I'm adding the following as one of my interlocutors here contacted me via email a few days ago and asked me what my definition of a "roust" by the cops is. I prefer to have my discussions here in public, but I replied to that email. I also told them I might put my reply here as well. For what it's worth, here it is:

I define a roust as everytime police roll up, detain and do a background check, for no apparent reason. Especially if they do it in an aggressive and arrogant manner. You know about the "attitude test", right?

Often these rousts are excused by some vague, unsubstantiated claim that, "we had a report of someone who looks like you was doing ...X....", but that report is never verified, never documented. Often they don't even include the, "someone who looks like you", part. They seem to assume they can stop anyone, anytime, for any or no reason. The law says otherwise.

I think the cops have a right to stop, detain and question if one is doing something illegal (speeding, any other clear traffic violation). But just walking, skipping or hopping down the street, if one is not visibly impaired, is not sufficient reason.

And if you don't think bored cops looking for something to do, don't roust young males (primarily) of all colors and those who are not White more often, then you're not paying attention. It's a pretty well known fact across the land.

That we've learned to handle it, for the most part, and have become accustomed to it, does not make it right. It does not make it OK for them to do so.

You've heard of the Black guy known as The Walker in L.A. back in the eighties and nineties, who fought all the way to the state Supreme Court (if I remember correctly, it may even have been the U.S. Supreme Court, whichever, I'll bet he would get a different result these days) for the right to not have to carry I.D.. Remember that?

Have you heard of the random TSA sweeps that have been held as "exercises" in conjunction with local law enforcement? Some three hundred or more of them in the last year? Random swamping of transportation hubs (bus stations, train stations, downtown areas) where they stop and search the persons and luggage of everyone in an area, without warning and fairly indiscriminately? I just read about it yesterday on Facebook. What does that remind you of?

To me it is reminiscent of a Police State, similar to the German/Nazi occupation of Europe in WWII, or the Russian/Soviet "Socialist" gulag under Stalin and his successors. It's a slippery slope, and we've slid well down it with the War On Drugs and the idea that it's OK for cops to stop anyone they want, without reasonable suspicion or prior cause, just because they have a "hunch".

I would prefer to have this conversation in public on the board. For the entertainment and, who knows?, edification of others. This will be my only reply to you off board, via private email. If you want to continue the conversation, please hold it on waccobb.

I may choose to include most of the content of this email (mine in reply to you) on the current thread. I haven't decided yet. I'll conceal your identity if you wish (the person expressed no preference, in fact they did not reply), although I don't understand why it would concern you. I will not quote your email to me, of course, that would be up to you to share, or not.

Cheers,

Miles

************************

Finally, I would encourage everyone interested to look at the material on the PACH website. Especially the ACLU guide to addressing community / police relations issues. There's a lot of useful information there.

https://pachline.org/

[Iolchan]

Good Thread, Kids...

Good thread kids; I have been readin' & watchin'
and waitin,' and wondering, just what to say;
to help you all see this sad story in context,
of the "the Bigger Picture" -=- as -=-They Say.

Now I once was young, too, and cam' from auld Berkeley
In the days When the fame o' the town was far Sung;
There were cops then, too - an' Sometimes they'd Arrest You,
For just be-in' long-haired, and foolish, and Young.

Yes back in the days when the township o' Berkeley
had an Accent that sounded like Cambridge, too,
Well, I'd also Ramble to towns Far from Berkeley,
And oft' as I rambled, my "arrest record" grew...

O well you might ask me, and also Inquire,
for the Causes o' why my "Arrest-Record" Grew...
And, I would inform you = as I'm doing Now:
'Twas A' for Nothing; I was just passing through.

= Mark Walter Evans=

[rossmen]

this is the problem. how do we want to be policed? the spd has just as many reserve officers as paid officers. the reserve officers are often young, have gone through the jc training and field training (takes about a year), and are licensed to shoot. they volunteer looking for experience and career (and law enforcement agencies are not hiring so what else is there to do)?

the culture of law enforcement in the us is "the thin blue line," us vs them, good vs bad. there are other ways. the spd operates in an economically segregated community, very low crime. yes and they jack the stats. the surrounding county provides a control reference. this is an opportunity.

chief weaver stands in the way. recently he cut his hours to balance the town budget. i think he can do more and have asked. his no was biased on confidentiality even though it was about the departments process with me. this isn't about citizen review, its about citizen involvement with justice. and the cops are running scared because their culture is challenged to change.

can we change our own culture of justice? can we see police as us rather than them? can we praise a lovingly raised young man for touching a nervous young cop and asking him how he was doing? and encourage the young man to seek more contact with law enforcement? our fear of the justice we know stands in the way.

I am so sorry to hear about your son. I grew up here in Sebastopol and now I am in my 40's raising my children who are teens. About a year ago I met an old high school girlfriend at Hop Monk's and had one glass of wine. I noticed a police officer came in the restaurant and looked at us. When I left I was pulled over by a really young officer and was given a sobriety test (my first one ever). He kept me for over an hour and said I failed and had to take a breathalyzer. I felt so harassed and told I was going to jail if I did not take the breathalyzer. Knowingly that I was not intoxicated I took it. Passed of course and then lectured if I had one more glass I would of went to jail. A week later my father was delivering cheese to Hop Monk and was pulled over too, asking if he had been drinking. NOT! Then my husband and I were at GTO's having dinner and watched the police drive around circles passing HopMonk, Aubergine, Jaspers, Main and GTO's looking for someone to pull over. I now look for places to go to dinner with friends out of Sebastopol because I feel they harass and it is not good for local business!!

[traindays]

this is the problem. how do we want to be policed? the spd has just as many reserve officers as paid officers. the reserve officers are often young, have gone through the jc training and field training (takes about a year), and are licensed to shoot. they volunteer looking for experience and career (and law enforcement agencies are not hiring so what else is there to do)?

the culture of law enforcement in the us is "the thin blue line," us vs them, good vs bad. there are other ways. the spd operates in an economically segregated community, very low crime. yes and they jack the stats. the surrounding county provides a control reference. this is an opportunity.

chief weaver stands in the way. recently he cut his hours to balance the town budget. i think he can do more and have asked. his no was biased on confidentiality even though it was about the departments process with me. this isn't about citizen review, its about citizen involvement with justice. and the cops are running scared because their culture is challenged to change.

can we change our own culture of justice? can we see police as us rather than them? can we praise a lovingly raised young man for touching a nervous young cop and asking him how he was doing? and encourage the young man to seek more contact with law enforcement? our fear of the justice we know stands in the way.

All I know is the police in Sebastopol are really tight. I have a neighbor who frequents clubs at night to play professional pool, and he is convinced because he drives a nice, fast looking car...he is constantly tailed, pulled over by the police (never drunk). This has gone on for years.

I read this story, about the 19 year old walking down one of our streets at night and it is disturbing to me. I don't know if he was racially profiled...it was dark...however it seems clear he was being harassed when he was causing no conflict. However, since a car got broken into, I can see a cop wanting to check out stray people walking down the road. Anyway, what bothers me is the intimidation when this is a low crime area and I think kids hanging out at night and around downtown should feel relaxed and safe, and that includes from over zealous police. That is important to me as a mother and for all mothers and fathers for our kids. Thats a huge reason we live in Sebastopol, right?

It also bothered me, and do not know how to word well, as I know there have been incidents of police prematurely shooting 'suspects' from either lack of training, lack of something. I don't forget those stories, and it does add a realistic fear/concern to a cop giving this 19 year old a hard time (for no good reason is the beginning of the concern).

It was suggested a task force - one that would need to be created - may be heard by the police...and I am not clear if the following post said that was impossible or not. I can't help but wonder if it would help, in some small way, for the police to hear that parents, young adults and others are uncomfortable with our kids/citizens, being possibly profiled, prematurely addressed (for just walking down the street). We need to feel safe in our town...how can the police help us to feel safe?

I wonder, and I am a idealist, if formally presented in such a way as "we don't want the possibility of racial profiling happening"...that elimates a argument from the police that of course there was no racial profiling, but to be willing to hear real concerns about IF there is racial profiling what some of the consequences could be. My idealism is that at least it could be educational, help highlight for the police to be more cautious within themselves, etc.

I care...I am sorry about your experience Sabrina for your son. I grew up in the south...so much after most of the nasty stuff but I understand how racism kind of sticks in the groves for a long time. I am sensitive to racism perhaps as a result, however even more sensitive to innocent people getting treated with anything less than respect from police. Thanks for hearing my ramble. I usually don't respond to these threads but this one touched me. If folks do decide to form a task force I would want to be part of it.

[anathstryx]

It seems that the discussion here dribbled away but it was inferred that police oversight groups have had little success in the past in Sebastopol, Santa Rosa, Sonoma county with a link for a police-victim support group in Santa Rosa. In my opinion, just because something hasn't worked in the past and there is a lot of resistance by "authority" to such groups doesn't mean one can't be formed now and another attempt made.

With some local media attention focused on the oversight group, it's voice would be alot louder, as well. The group would need a very savvy, articulate spokesperson/liaison to present their cases to the media and the police. Furthermore, an alliance with a councilperson (especially one who wants your votes) who is sympathetic to the issues would also be most helpful, adding some clout.

Here's a link I found some time ago on police oversight that seems to have some good info: https://www.parc.info/home.chtml

Anathstryx

[daynurse]

I've held off responding to this thread because it has been almost 20 years since I lived in Sebastopol. These last two replies have spurred me into writing.

When I lived in Sebastopol, the police force was very small, I think 9 regular officers. They were indeed bored and tended to 'sweat the small stuff'. My 10 year old daughter was caught writing on a bridge in Ives Park with lipstick and was treated so harshly that she was overwhelmed. I wasn't called immediately. By the time I picked her up, she was traumatized. I complained to the officer who did it and ran into a huge defensive reply. Complaining to the chief left me frustrated.

During the same time period, two on-duty officers were, for some forgotten reason, checking out an empty warehouse and one decided to play a 'trick' on his partner. He hid behind a large box and popped out. To his surprise, he was shot in the shoulder. Huge obfuscation was apparent in the subsequent Seb. Times articles.

I was at a training recently for political organizers and public comment was mentioned as one of the most effective tools to make changes.

As for an oversight group. Yes, it is imperative. Don't underestimate the power of the 3 minute "public comment" at City Council meetings. You don't have to be talking about any item specifically on the agenda. If everyone who is living there (constituents) just shows up at the beginning of the City Council meeting, fills out the speaker card, and reads into the record your opinion about this, it will begin to make the newspapers and other medias as an issue.

Seems to me 3 minutes of your time and putting your stories, comments, suggestions and ideas on the record is something almost anyone can fit into their schedule. I especially recommend that the mom and son each take the time to do this.

There is a meeting this Tuesday July 5 at 6 pm. Who can go? Email me directly if you would like some coaching or have questions.

[email protected].
Meeting Dates, Agendas, Minutes, Reports

7120 Bodega Avenue
Sebastopol, CA 95472
707-823-1153 Phone
707-823-1135 Fax
Generally, the City Council meets on first and third Tuesdays of each month. All meetings begin at 6:00 pm. Unless noted, the meeting location is at Sebastopol Youth Annex, 425 Morris Street in Sebastopol.

With respect to videos of City Council and Community Development Agency Meetings, this website will hold a minimum of the five most recent videos of meetings on line. If you wish to view a video of a meeting farther in the past, please contact City Hall. We are working on expanding our online storage capacity as well as other video hosting services that will hopefully enable us to reload older videos.

City Council Meetings

Meeting Date	Agenda	Minutes	Staff Rpts	Videos
Tue, Jul 5, 2011 - 6:00pm Legal Hearing
Tue, Jul 5, 2011 - 6:00pm City Council and CDA Meeting	July 5th Council and CDA agenda		July 5th Council and CDA agenda packet

[Sabrina]

As for an oversight group. Yes, it is imperative. Don't underestimate the power of the 3 minute "public comment" at City Council meetings. You don't have to be talking about any item specifically on the agenda. If everyone who is living there (constituents) just shows up at the beginning of the City Council meeting, fills out the speaker card, and reads into the record your opinion about this, it will begin to make the newspapers and other medias as an issue.

Seems to me 3 minutes of your time and putting your stories, comments, suggestions and ideas on the record is something almost anyone can fit into their schedule. I especially recommend that the mom and son each take the time to do this.
There is a meeting this Tuesday July 5 at 6 pm. Who can go? Email me directly if you would like some coaching or have questions. [email protected].

We actually live in Santa Rosa, but spend a lot of entertainment money in Sebastopol since usually the best stuff is going on over there. If I have support from others, and someone coaches me on how to approach the city council in an effective way, I'd be willing to go, and to get my son to come, most likely. Anyone else want to speak on this? Encouragement?

[Barry]

We actually live in Santa Rosa, but spend a lot of entertainment money in Sebastopol since usually the best stuff is going on over there. If I have support from others, and someone coaches me on how to approach the city council in an effective way, I'd be willing to go, and to get my son to come, most likely. Anyone else want to speak on this? Encouragement?

Consider yourself encouraged! Note that Chief Weaver attends most City Council meetings. He's a nice guy and I'm sure he'd be happy to listen to your concerns and respond.

[rossmen]

chief weaver plays nice cop, thats why he is chief. i think public comment at the city council meeting is a good way to get his attention. i am willing to show up and comment about my process with the spd. this would be along the lines of the spd says they are willing to use restorative justice with juvenal offenders, how about adults? is the spd willing to sit in a circle where all voices are heard about the actions they take?

citizen review of police is a different process which is more firmly resisted by law enforcement.

Consider yourself encouraged! Note that Chief Weaver attends most City Council meetings. He's a nice guy and I'm sure he'd be apply to listen to your concerns and respond.

[Barry]

Turns out that we already got Chief Weaver's attention. He sent me the following note along with his permission to post it:

I did research the incident and found the following:

Earlier on the evening when the young man was stopped, a Sebastopol resident's car was vandalized in front of his home. The officers said he should call the police if he saw or heard anything suspicious in the future.

Later that evening, the victim heard a loud "bang" near his vehicle. He exited his home, fearing the vandal had returned.

He saw one person in the immediate area; the young man we eventually stopped.

He called the police department, provided the young man's description, and guided the officer to the young man by providing updates to the dispatcher.

The officer responded to the citizen's call and contacted the young man. Not knowing if he was the suspect, a witness, or not involved at all, the officer began the encounter as a 'consensual encounter' rather than a 'detention'; hence, the "Are you okay" comment from the officer.

After a short conversation (the entire encounter lasted 3 minutes and 18 seconds), the officer determined the individual was not involved and ended the contact.

So, as you can see, the officer didn't select the young man at random (or because of his race) but rather was responding to a citizen's call.

It is also notable what the officer didn't do:

He didn't direct the young man to sit on the curb or the patrol car bumper, in keeping with the 'consensual contact' nature of the encounter.

The officer didn't place the young man in a 'restrained denention' (either in handcuffs or in the patrol car).

The officer didn't call for back up and no other officer arrived.

The officer didn't ask permission to search the young man nor did he search the young man.

Basically, the officer did the bare minimum to respond to the citizen's call with minimum inconvenience and discomfort to the young man. Other than not responding at all, he couldn't have really done any less.

And, I think the officer was successful in his low key approach, as the young man felt comfortable asking the officer how he was doing (which to me shows he wasn't intimidated). He also told his mother he felt the encounter was a 'joke'.

I just want you to know what really happened. Race place no part in this matter whatsoever.

Take care,

Jeff Weaver

[Cheingrand]

I thank Chief Weaver for providing the other side to the story. Too often on this board, knee-jerk cop-haters jump at every opportunity to rant about police brutality, over-zealous enforcement of laws, and the good old days when the police were the good-guys. Whenever someone on this board stands up for the police, they are immediately branded as encouraging a police-state. I think the Sebastopol Police Department is well-trained and sensitive to our community. The "us versus them" mentality that several posters attribute to the police is far more in the minds of those whose default setting is to hate cops.

[Dixon]

I thank Chief Weaver for providing the other side to the story.

As do I. Perhaps you saw the "Gratitude" I gave that post last night.

Too often on this board, knee-jerk cop-haters jump at every opportunity to rant about police brutality, over-zealous enforcement of laws, and the good old days when the police were the good-guys.

I myself have already suggested on this thread that people should refrain from talking as if we know for sure that the cop did (or didn't) do something wrong. But to brand people who are a bit too certain that something was wrong "cop-haters" is, I think, an unjustified and provocative exaggeration. Perhaps you have not experienced unambiguous police brutality, racism or harassment, but some of us, including myself, have. If such traumatic experiences had happened to you or your loved ones, you too might be inclined to presume profiling or whatever in certain police encounters. Calling people "cop-haters" for that only polarizes the situation more.

Whenever someone on this board stands up for the police, they are immediately branded as encouraging a police-state.

I have not seen that happen that I recall. An example, please?