Click Banner For More Info See All Sponsors

So Long and Thanks for All the Fish!

This site is now closed permanently to new posts.
We recommend you use the new Townsy Cafe!

Click anywhere but the link to dismiss overlay!

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 36

  • Share this thread on:
  • Follow: No Email   
  • Thread Tools
  1. TopTop #1
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Article: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    The election is upon on us, and I know that one proposition that is of great interest to many of you is Prop 19 - Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010.

    A good summary of it's provisions is on Ballotpedia.

    And a blog entitled "
    Stoners Against the Prop. 19 Tax Cannabis Initiative" has been making the rounds lately.

    I do not agree with it on some fundamental grounds.


    First, I think it's disingenuous to not acknowledge that Cannabis prohibition has in effect created a huge subsidy for multitudes of pot growers. Rightly or wrongly, I suspect many will vote with their own financial interest to defeat Prop 19. I'll be most interested to see if Humboldt County votes to legalize its major economic engine.


    Secondly, regardless of the specifics of the measure and the arguments against it by the "stoners", I think this is a landmark step to acknowledge and take responsibility for appropriate use of Cannabis.


    While the current "medical" marijuana system is quite flexible, its application results in what is tantamount to fraud. Countless people, no doubt that includes many of you, have gotten "medical recommendations" with a wink and a nod (and $100). It's a sham.


    Let's restore some integrity and acknowledge that lots of people use it in a "recreational" (literally re-create) way and that shouldn't be illegal. Steps to regulate and tax it, along similar lines to alcohol, is an appropriate way for society control this powerful herb, which can be used as well as abused.


    This is just the first step, and it crosses is big line, even if we've inched up to that line via de-criminalization and compassionate use, and it doesn't take us very far across the line, but none-the-less it crosses a huge symbolic line.


    We've all dreamed about this day. It's time to make it real!
    Last edited by Barry; 10-20-2010 at 10:43 PM.

    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  2. Gratitude expressed by 12 members:

  3. TopTop #2
    NorseViking869
     
    The way see it, Humboldt and the rest of California would benefit in too many ways not to legalize. The fact that many growers and activists would no longer be being sent to prison wasting our tax payers dollars to house and feed them would be enough of a reason alone to legalize. Dealers may lose out on some of the lucrative nature of the herb, yet, they may be able to use their expertise and connections with the growers who have been in existence for the commercial trade which is sure to spawn since most of us do not have a green thumb to grow our own.

    i see this as a step in the direction that has need to happen since the 40's when it was first proven that marijuana prohibition was as much of a failure as alcohol prohibition. Look at all the money that has been spent by tax payers to fill the coffers of police, feds, officials etc. legalization would benefit all of us even if pot wasn't taxed because of the cutting of red tape and the savings of tax payer dollars alone. Then do not forget that commercial trade in marijuana will be the most lucrative crops in California. i do not know if that trade will still cover the 1/3 of the nations pot sales as it has in the past during prohibition.

    i just know that ending prohibition is the best thing we can do as a state and a nation someday. I know that many of the growers and dealers need the income of the illicit trade deals they do in current; however, it will be better for them in the long run as it will be the best thing for our state save for the legalizing of gambling and prostitution. I know many of you will not agree wit the previous sentence; however, Revenue and public safety would be improved exponential by such a bold move in our future. let's see and end to moral watchdogs and the special interests. if they do not like how we want to live, they can just live there own way instead of pushing their beliefs down our collective throats. And to the special interests, find a new way to profit or fail.
    Last edited by Barry; 10-19-2010 at 05:12 PM.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  4. Gratitude expressed by:

  5. TopTop #3
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?


    Somebody I know well, but won't name, has been hammering home the point that most of the primo bud nowadays is grown indoors. And that this kine takes lots of electricity, fertilizer and chemicals to produce. In other words, it's bad for the environment.

    By legalizing use and production, (at least in this state, Holder is blowing smoke) especially if there is a significant retail price drop, the ability to grow fine herb outdoors, with minimal impacts to the ecosystem, will be enhanced and incentivized. This is a very good thing,

    Vote Yes on 19!
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  6. Gratitude expressed by 6 members:

  7. TopTop #4
    sheepdog's Avatar
    sheepdog
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles: View Post

    Somebody I know well, but won't name, has been hammering home the point that most of the primo bud nowadays is grown indoors. And that this kine takes lots of electricity, fertilizer and chemicals to produce. In other words, it's bad for the environment.

    By legalizing use and production, (at least in this state, Holder is blowing smoke) especially if there is a significant retail price drop, the ability to grow fine herb outdoors, with minimal impacts to the ecosystem, will be enhanced and incentivized. This is a very good thing,

    Vote Yes on 19!
    I couldn't agree more!

    Although I rarely smoke pot anymore, I have been for decriminalization of it for 35 years. Recently, I rented a house to two young fellows who (it seemed) had legitimate gigs. They proceeded to set up a sophisticated indoor growing operation which included cutting holes in the ceilings and walls of three bedrooms, falling through the living room ceiling while they were up in the attic installing all their ventilation pipes, and ruining the new wool carpeting that had been installed just prior to their moving in.

    The chemicals they used literally ate the wool carpeting up. My feeling is that Nature made plants to grow outside in the sunshine and the rain and that should include cannabis. These guys felt they were "entitled" to ruin my property because one of them had a "scrip". They had no remorse when they were discovered, and basically thought I was a pain the rear for getting upset about what they had done.

    I'm voting for Prop. 19 for all the right reasons.

    Tom Trent
    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 10-21-2010 at 11:02 AM.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  8. Gratitude expressed by 3 members:

  9. TopTop #5
    Claire's Avatar
    Claire
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    For decades now Big Tobacco has been poised to leap into the cannabis market as soon as legality becomes reality.

    I fear the ramifications of turning this complex herb over to Big Business ( especially lovely giants like R J Reynolds) and the Government.

    There has got to be a better plan.

    Please read this:

    https://stop19.com/ten-reasons-to-vote-no/
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  10. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  11. TopTop #6
    Claire's Avatar
    Claire
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    No Comments?

    What does anyone really know about this proposition?
    Just because I post a link on WaccoBB does not make any of it true. ( of course. )
    I am wondering where to find some real understanding of this measure.

    is there a huge smoke cloud over this issue?
    This proposition is definitely in our own back yard.

    Remember how the out-of-state-money casinos got voted in? Some lovely, sweet share-the wealth amongst the non-gaming tribes measure? Next day, they were breaking ground on the most hideous frickin structures to ever overlook Alexander Valley or any other Sonoma valley. Oh yes, with promises of terraces of hanging plants to hide the appallingly institutional cement behemoth up there.
    uh huh. still waiting....

    It wasn't so long ago that there was no tobacco seed available across the country to grow one's own smoke. Ok, so maybe Northern California had some but the rest of us? No where to be found!
    Talk about a stranglehold on a (native) herb-- a plant that makes copious amounts of seed.

    Proposition 19? I am skeptical.
    I'd like to hear from some critical thinkers who have read this and can elucidate! help!

    ps. hey! I've given gratitude loads of times. why does it only say once!
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  12. TopTop #7
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    More info is available here:https://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.p...ive_%282010%29

    What are your concerns?

    We lost a bunch of gratitude history during the recent upgrade. I hope to be able to restore that at some point after we address more pressing concerns.

    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  13. Gratitude expressed by:

  14. TopTop #8
    Veeja's Avatar
    Veeja
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    You don't have to use a lot of chemicals indoors. Don't kid yourself. If you think they don't use chemicals to grow outdoors ,your wrong. When these big corporations take over and have big farms they will use chemicals just like any other farmers. I know some indoor grower who try as much as possible to grow organic. Yah! it sucks they have to use so much electric. On the other hand I know someone who hardly pays anything on his energy use with a roof full of solar panels. This initiatives also sucks for your mom and pops who have been doing this for many years ,and do a great job indoor or outdoor. I want it to be legal. But not like this. taxcannabus.org gives you some info on the initiative. But for the stoner folks who don't understand what it take to be a grower and what it will mean to the qaulity of the product, reading the initiative won't matter. It's not all about making a killing to most growers. It cost a lot to do it. They get a nice salary if done right. Believe me there not getting rich. The cops and feds are busting people, no arrest but they take all the product and money. Am I saying all cops are dirty? NO! but it's a racket. And that element will still be there if this passes. Because, you will keep your mouth shut if your threaten with the feds.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles: View Post

    Somebody I know well, but won't name, has been hammering home the point that most of the primo bud nowadays is grown indoors. And that this kine takes lots of electricity, fertilizer and chemicals to produce. In other words, it's bad for the environment.

    By legalizing use and production, (at least in this state, Holder is blowing smoke) especially if there is a significant retail price drop, the ability to grow fine herb outdoors, with minimal impacts to the ecosystem, will be enhanced and incentivized. This is a very good thing,

    Vote Yes on 19!
    Last edited by Barry; 10-22-2010 at 03:48 PM.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  15. Gratitude expressed by 3 members:

  16. TopTop #9
    Claire's Avatar
    Claire
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    More info is available here:https://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.p...ive_%282010%29

    What are your concerns?
    Thank you for the link, Barry. I will read it soon and if it does not address my concerns, I will ask you for more clarity.

    I am wondering whether the points listed on the 10 reasons link I posted are truly legit?
    I wonder, for example, if people will be able to grow (i.e. possess) more than an ounce without fear of recrimination/ arrest.
    I'd like to know if the poor souls serving sentences for possession now in prisons and jails across the state will be freed. If so, i don't suppose they would want to wait for the "better measure' slated for the ballot in 2012. And if not? How are they to be rescued? What's the word on that?

    I am not really in support of those who have been growing all these years, setting an outrageous price for those who cannot grow their own. $400/ oz?? That's a lotta moolah, no matter how or why you use it. Many of them have bought land with that money. Good for them, not so good for those who are on the buying end. I understand there have been risks, but that is an exorbitant price. It's nice to see things coming down to merely a high price, or better yet, down to the place where working stiffs can grow their own, medical use or recreational... or both, as is often the case.
    Is there anything on that list of why to vote NO on Prop 19 that anyone can categorically refute? I'd love to hear it. In the meantime I will find time to read the link you posted, Barry. thank you.
    Last edited by Barry; 10-23-2010 at 02:32 PM.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  17. Gratitude expressed by:

  18. TopTop #10
    projectpeace's Avatar
    projectpeace
     
    Here are Chris Conrad's views on Prop 19
    https://globalganjareport.com/conten...t-legalization

    My feeling about Prop 19 is that it concedes rightful jurisdiction, at a time when the true value of Cannabis as both unique and essential makes it valuable beyond the rightful jurisdiction of any court, protected by the First Amendment. Exercise of "essential civilian demand" for industrial hemp at the federal level is more potent a strategy for Cannabis freedom. Ending prohibition is critical. Prop 19 is a complication in an endless argument that concedes far too much.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  19. Gratitude expressed by:

  20. TopTop #11
    Valley Oak
    Guest

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    WRONG!

    Veeja, Ossenbeck, and "projectpeace" are using the typical smokescreen arguments of Conservatives, whose real agenda is to keep marijuana illegal because their deeply held feelings continue to view it (erroneously) as a menacing street drug.

    Vote yes on 19

    Edward


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by projectpeace: View Post
    Here are Chris Conrad's views on Prop 19
    https://globalganjareport.com/conten...t-legalization

    My feeling about Prop 19 is that it concedes rightful jurisdiction, at a time when the true value of Cannabis as both unique and essential makes it valuable beyond the rightful jurisdiction of any court, protected by the First Amendment. Exercise of "essential civilian demand" for industrial hemp at the federal level is more potent a strategy for Cannabis freedom. Ending prohibition is critical. Prop 19 is a complication in an endless argument that concedes far too much.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  21. Gratitude expressed by:

  22. TopTop #12
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?


    OK, since no one else has bitten the bullet, here goes:


    Quote 1. Proposition 19 isnít really legalization. It only allows possession of up to one ounce of cannabis. Under current California law, an ounce or less of pot is a simple civil infraction ó you CANíT be arrested, you DONíT go to court, and you WONíT get a criminal record. Prop 19 doesnít make any improvements to decriminalization or prop 215.
    True 19 isn't total repeal of prohibition. But it's a big step in that direction. As for the new civil infraction, you can be fined, it will go on your record. As things are now, possession of less than an ounce is still against the law. If 19 passes, it will be legal. (At least by state law, it will still be a federal offense. But how many Federal Marshall's do you see doing minor drug possession busts?)

    That's a significant difference, no matter how much anyone tries to downplay it. And by not even ticketing people for possession of less than an ounce, big bucks in taxpayer funds will be saved.

    Quote 2. Prop 19 creates several new cannabis related crimes with extremely severe penalties. Donít pass a joint to a 17 year old, you will be looking at a max of 7 years in state prison, seriously.
    It's already illegal to give drugs or alcohol to minors. This is nothing new. How many people have you read about in the paper who have been sent to prison for doing so? This charge is bogus.

    I didn't participate in the crafting of Prop. 19, but my best guess is that the sanctions against providing pot to minors, were included to make the initiative salable to the tough on crime, drugs are bad, they're poisoning our youth crowd. A necessary compromise to give it a shot at passing. Keep in mind that the proposition was written by activists and lawyers who have been fighting this fight for a very long time. They've done the polling to determine what has a chance of passing, and what doesn't.

    I'm not a criminal lawyer, or a cop, so if anyone wants to compare current laws and penalties for "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" with the specific sanctions in Prop. 19 against providing weed to kids, I'd be very interested.



    Quote 3. Prop 19 is solely designed to allow large scale cannabis production by politically connected corporations. Oakland has already started the process to license a Prop 19 Cartel mega-grow.
    Yes a big Medical Marijuana grower has donated major funds to the Yes on Prop. 19 campaign, and is one of the architects of the effort. So what? My reading of the proposition says that every adult can grow a 5'x5' plot. How does that help an industrial grower of "medicine"? Sounds like baseless slander to me.

    "... solely designed ..." Yeah, right. Prove it! More scary language, without substantiation.



    Quote 4. Most legal experts agree that Prop 19 is poorly written and will leave police and judges to enforce it at their discretion. For example, consuming cannabis would be illegal in the same "space" as a minor. Police and judges are free to interpret the word "space" to mean the same room, house, or entire apartment complex.
    Who are these "most legal experts"? On the website for this list, there are opinions from two lawyers. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not qualified to evaluate their arguments. Prop. 19 was written with the help of lawyers. Lawyers support it. Who did the poll of every legal expert in the state, the nation, to determine what percentage oppose it, what percentage support it and how many don't give a toss? This is more propaganda language unsupported by facts.


    Quote 5. There is no need to rush into a law that will be difficult to change. There are better full legalization laws, including one set to be on the ballot in 2012.
    How long do we have to wait? Prop. 19 is before the voters. If there's a need for additional propositions, or changes in the law, great, we'll deal with them when they're before us to decide. This argument is completely specious. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


    Quote 6. Prop 19 will lead to the walmartization of the cannabis industry. And unfortunately, this will result in lower quality and fixed prices. Limited competition and government control will allow large scale growers to determine prices and dictate quality standards (or lack thereof).
    Bullshit. Nobody can predict what will happen in a legal pot market. Or the underground one that is likely to continue. If trends in boutique consumer markets are any evidence, it's likely that quality will be emphasized, over quantity. Look at wine, coffee, chocolate, pastries. Does anyone see the big producers forcing the small ones out of the market? This one is even more total hogwash.


    Quote 7. Local governments will control the taxation, production, and distribution of cannabis. This is a touchy political issue; most local politicians wonít risk a backlash by allowing dispensaries in their city. This means many people will have to travel long distances or break the law to purchase cannabis.
    Local control!!! Fuck Yeah!! Isn't that what all the Tea Partiers, States Righters, Shop Local, etc., etc. call for all the time? Is anyone having to drive long distances now to get their weed? Do you think the people who make a little, or a lot, of scratch off of weed sales, whether regulated and legal, or not, are going to let some market demand go unexploited? This is total "baffle them with bullshit." No basis in fact, of any predictable kind, whatsoever.


    Quote 8. Prop 19 will likely supersede prop 215, adversely affecting medical cannabis users by dictating grow size, possession amount, patient to patient sales, and location of use.
    That's not what the language of the proposition says. It says that 215 takes precedence and should not be changed in any way. In spite of the abstruse argument by one lawyer on the No on 19 website, claiming this (again, I'm not in a position to analyze her assertions) the clear clause in Prop. 19 says 215 stays without revision. Separate issue. Apples and Oranges. This slam is a lie. Find a "majority of legal experts" to back her up, I might consider rescinding that claim. Without such proof, I'll stick with my refutation.


    Quote 9. Unbiased cannabis activists do NOT support Prop 19. This includes the late Jack Herer and the co-author of prop 215, Dennis Peron (see his video here).
    Some leaders in the Medical Marijuana movement/industry oppose Prop. 19. I am not privy to all of the inside politics. I do know that getting a bunch of activists to agree on anything as a seamless whole is not just herding cats. It's herding psychotic schizophrenic cats on Meth! (Actually the Meth might help with the schizophrenia, but that's another discussion.)

    I surmise that the resistance in the Medical Pot scene has a lot to do with the fear that prices will plummet, and a legal market for pot will undercut their profits. Follow the money. The truth will out. Also I imagine that anyone who has spent decades distinguishing between medical and recreational uses for pot, and has been dedicated to arguing for the medical need, might be invested in keeping a clear division between the two.

    And oh, I guess any cannabis activist who supports Prop. 19 has to be biased! Right? That's the logical conclusion from the first sentence quoted above. Q.E.D.



    Quote 10. The federal government has decided to not prosecute medical cannabis users. This will not be the case if Prop 19 passes. Many people believe that the passage of Prop 19 will bring an aggressive response from the feds, perhaps putting medical users at risk of losing access to medicine.
    Repetition with more baseless assertion. A lie repeated often enough, becomes the truth. Unless people pay close attention and keep refuting the lie.

    Holder said he'd come after a legal pot market in California if 19 passes. We'll see. The Feds did bust clinics early on. People went down for that. Then other states passed Medical Marijuana laws. We had a global financial crisis in which governments funds are mighty scarce nowadays. We'll see.

    "This will not be the case..." And you know this because? Bold assertion is not proof of anything. Even though it's good rhetoric. Holder was blowing smoke. Time will tell. Otherwise there's nothing to back this claim up.

    "...perhaps putting medical users at risk of losing access..." Lot's of wiggle room in that "perhaps". But it's pure unfounded speculation.

    Divide and conquer. If recreational users get a break, the sick will suffer!!!! Uh huh. We know this because? .... The fact is nobody knows this. It's just alarmist rhetoric to undercut support for this incremental step towards legalization. Straight up fearmongering.


    The Drug Policy Alliance supports Prop. 19. If you don't know who they are, you should. They're the lead national organization opposing the Drug War with facts, reason and political organizing. They are the main architects of a reformed national drug policy based on harm reduction and decriminalization. (Note I didn't write legalization. It's an interesting debate, read up on it.) If Ethan Nadelmann supports Prop. 19, that means the, "majority of drug law reform experts" support it.

    If you're on Facebook, I recommend Lazara Allen's thread with Laura Hamburg for additional discussion and factual recitation.

    Prop. 19 won't completely rescind all drug laws regarding marijuana. Everybody who thinks that complete legalization without any regulation is on the agenda of political possibility in the near future, raise their hand.

    Hey, we have a majority of experts who agree!!! Too bad I can't see through my screen, and out from yours, to do the hand count and prove it.

    On the other hand everybody can look at polls, lists of supporters, lists of donors and statements of support, and make up their own mind.

    Just don't let anybody use scare quotes and empty speculation to influence your thinking. Unless you like being a dupe.

    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 10-23-2010 at 10:04 PM. Reason: Just a little tune up
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  23. Gratitude expressed by 7 members:

  24. TopTop #13
    Veeja's Avatar
    Veeja
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Thank you well spoken.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles: View Post
    OK, since no one else......

    Last edited by Alex; 10-24-2010 at 03:03 PM. Reason: Shortened quoted text
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  25. Gratitude expressed by:

  26. TopTop #14
    Veeja's Avatar
    Veeja
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Oh! my! one of those. You are sadly mistaken. How do you think we got into so much trouble with all the foreclosures? Because someone passed an initiative that people didn't understand. Look where that got us. There is a better ballot to vote yes on coming 2012. I will be voting yes then. You can think what you want. But people like you are one of the reasons we are where we are today.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Valley Oak: View Post
    WRONG!

    Veeja, Ossenbeck, and "projectpeace" are using the typical smokescreen arguments of Conservatives, whose real agenda is to keep marijuana illegal because their deeply held feelings continue to view it (erroneously) as a menacing street drug.

    Vote yes on 19

    Edward
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  27. Gratitude expressed by:

  28. TopTop #15
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Veeja: View Post
    ... You are sadly mistaken. How do you think we got into so much trouble with all the foreclosures? Because someone passed an initiative that people didn't understand. Look where that got us. ...
    Veeja,

    Thanks for your previous post complimenting my refudiation, oops! I mean refutation, of the anti - 19 rhetoric.

    But I'm puzzled. I'm a fairly close reader of the news, although I am no expert in mortgage finance law. (Boring!?)

    I do not recall the issue of summary foreclosures, without the proper documentation and in a few documented cases without any valid documentation at all, being linked to any ballot initiative, in any state in this country. This is a totally new claim, from what I know.

    Can you back it up with some documentary basis?

    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  29. Gratitude expressed by 3 members:

  30. TopTop #16
    Claire's Avatar
    Claire
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    [QUOTE="Mad" Miles;123711]
    OK, since no one else has bitten the bullet, here goes:




    Thank you, Mad Miles. I needed that.

    I appreciate you taking the time.

    ~Claire
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  31. Gratitude expressed by:

  32. TopTop #17
    Veeja's Avatar
    Veeja
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Actually, I don't have time to back anything up on this thread. I am very busy. But look what the banks were able to get away with. Not to mention these big corporations. And I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the subject myself. Maybe I should have not brought up forecloser. But I do have some knowledge in medical cannabis. And you can't grow very much medicine in a 5 x 5 space. People that are sick will be working around the clock all year just to get enough medicine. And when the price plummets the reason for quality going down will be because you wont be able to afford to grow quality medicine. You obviously don't know how much it cost to grow ,or understand how much time is invovled. Especially if you want organic. And Sears has already started the process to sell products for growing. People will still be willing to buy underground and pay more money for better medicine. I do want it to be legal. But I am patient. Let do this the right way. Not half assed. Haven't we learned anything. Lets get our head out of the clouds. Be smart. Don't let big business run the show. Because that is exactly what is happening. A few people with lots of money cutting out the small guy. If you don't mind that by all means vote yes. I will save my vote for 2012. The vote that will include all of us.
    By the way! There will still be crime because of it. (IT WILL STILL BE ILLEGAL) under federal law. And right now under 215 it is legal in California to grow your medicine. And now with the bill Schwarzenegger pasted. You can have an ounce on your person out there in the world. You can have more at home. Please don't say I don't want it to be legal. Because I do. I just don't want all of us to regret not waiting for a better initiative. One that is right for all.

    [QUOTE="Mad" Miles;123714]Veeja,
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles: View Post
    Veeja,

    Thanks for your previous post complimenting my refudiation, oops! I mean refutation, of the anti - 19 rhetoric.

    But I'm puzzled. I'm a fairly close reader of the news, although I am no expert in mortgage finance law. (Boring!?)

    I do not recall the issue of summary foreclosures, without the proper documentation and in a few documented cases without any valid documentation at all, being linked to any ballot initiative, in any state in this country. This is a totally new claim, from what I know.

    Can you back it up with some documentary basis?

    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  33. TopTop #18
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?


    Veeja,

    Proposition 19 does not change 215 state law and county / municipal regulations one iota.

    It only applies to non-patients. Not patients.


    Your fears are completely unfounded, and from my reading of the news and commentary, the only basis for those fears is anti - 19 propaganda.

    There is no threat to Medical Marijuana from Prop. 19. None.

    "Sears is selling grow equipment..." Good! Although why, once it's "legal" it will be better to grow it outdoors, better for the environment. And other than security, it is already better to grow your medicine outdoors. Cheaper, cleaner, less impact on the environment.

    Did you see the article about the artists' collective on Hood Mountain that grows medical to support their art projects? All outdoors from what I could tell.

    On legal/not legal, state vs. federal is the issue, Medical Marijuana is illegal according to the Federal government. That hasn't changed and won't be changed by Prop. 19. It will take congress or a constitutional amendment to decriminalize pot nationally. That day is coming. Prop. 19 is a step in that direction.

    There is no compelling argument against Prop. 19. Unless your goal is to keep pot illegal.

    There are many compelling arguments for Prop. 19.

    If you seriously think Prop. 19 is some kind of threat to your access to "medicine", prove it. So far nothing I've heard or read does that. Unless you count rhetoric, rumor mongering and scary turns of phrase, without any factual foundation, as proof.

    If you do, then you already know the God Damn Scum-Sucking Socialists! are out to enslave us all, there's no hope, and Prop. 19 is just another of their ploys to destroy America (U.S.). If you believe all that, I'm afraid you're beyond the reach of reason and persuasion.

    And by the way, those GDSSS!!! were behind Proposition 215. They've already got you firmly grasped in their hoary claws!!!!!

    Keep smoking. Although vaporizing or eating discrete amounts is better.

    Shhh.... Don't tell the GDSSS!!!!


    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  34. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  35. TopTop #19
    Veeja's Avatar
    Veeja
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    (Your fears are completely unfounded, and from my reading of the news and commentary, the only basis for those fears is anti - 19 propaganda. )

    Do you believe everything you read in the paper.?
    Vote however you like. I personally don't have time to go back and forth. I gave my two cents. And it sounds like I might have a little bit more knowledge about the cannabis industry. I am not a lier. You have called me that more then once (maybe not your exact wording) about the reason I would vote no for this initiative. Good luck to you and everyone else. I hope it goes the way you expect it to.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles: View Post
    Proposition 19 does not change 215 state law.....
    Last edited by Alex; 10-24-2010 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Shortened quoted text
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  36. TopTop #20
    Tars's Avatar
    Tars
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    I'm a mail-in voter, and I've already cast my vote in favor of 19. I see the concerns people have, and they sound like very reasonable concerns. Having read them I still voted in favor of the the measure.

    I see the 2012 election as being one where marijuana laws will be adjusted after 19, as 19 does after 215. To me 19 is just a small incremental step forward. I think it will move counties and politicians forward on marijuana legalization. As with 215 its impact will be felt more in changing public mores than defining ultimate marijuana laws. Since it "Permits local governments to regulate and tax commercial production and sale of marijuana to people 21 years old or older", there will be a lot of experimentation and adjustment.

    I'm not concerned at this point about major corporations hogging all the business. It will probably mimic the beer & wine worlds. I think there'll still be hesitation to put major investment capital into it until it's had time to be hammered on and tinkered with in CA communities. I especially believe this after the recent federal chest thumping on the issue. There will need to be a few court cases run through to the Supremes at least, to get the issue clarified enough to suit the big corporations. "The wheels of justice grind slowly". I'm thinking that it will take at least two years to work through the various legal processes; just in time for the 2012 election to further clarify California's will.

    Last I heard, one can obtain cocaine with a doctor's prescription. Some people are prescribed wine. I don't see the problems some see involving age of the medical purchaser, or adults smoking in the vicinity of under-21's. Oh, someone with a stick up their .... may decide to test the law in that area. But there's too much precedent already set about use-around-minors of other legal intoxicants, for pot use, as widely accepted as it already is, to be significantly different.

    In strategy there's a belief that it's always important to move forward. Prop 19 isn't the answer, but it moves us a small bit incrementally forward.
    Last edited by Tars; 10-24-2010 at 05:53 PM.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  37. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  38. TopTop #21
    Veeja's Avatar
    Veeja
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    I respect your decision. I understand your stance on prop 19. I would like to think by passing it now it will lead the way for the 2012 ballot. Whether it passes or not we are at least moving forward for legalization. We are standing up and saying this is what we want. I'm still 99% sure I will vote no for now. I just think it might be harder to change it if we pass this one. I could be wrong.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Tars: View Post
    I'm a mail-in voter, and I've already cast my vote in favor of 19. I see the concerns people have, and they sound like very reasonable concerns. Having read them I still voted in favor of the the measure.
    ...

    Last I heard, one can obtain cocaine with a doctor's prescription. Some people are prescribed wine. I don't see the problems some see involving age of the medical purchaser, or adults smoking in the vicinity of under-21's. Oh, someone with a stick up their .... may decide to test the law in that area. But there's too much precedent already set about use-around-minors of other legal intoxicants, for pot use, as widely accepted as it already is, to be significantly different.

    In strategy there's a belief that it's always important to move forward. Prop 19 isn't the answer, but it moves us a small bit incrementally forward.
    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 10-24-2010 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Reduce quote from previous post
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  39. TopTop #22
    AllorrahBe
    Guest

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Thanks, Miles ... we needed that!
    Rev. Allorrah Be
    Mobile Minister
    Circles of Light Ministries
    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 10-24-2010 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Remove complete quote of previous post
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  40. TopTop #23
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Veeja: View Post
    I respect your decision. I understand your stance on prop 19. I would like to think by passing it now it will lead the way for the 2012 ballot. Whether it passes or not we are at least moving forward for legalization. We are standing up and saying this is what we want. I'm still 99% sure I will vote no for now. I just think it might be harder to change it if we pass this one. I could be wrong.
    If Prop 19 gets defeated, it will be interpreted as the "people" saying that they do not want marijuana legalized. It will be a big set back.

    Now is the time to move forward! Anything else will be, in retrospect, a huge set back. If 19 goes down, I highly doubt that a more liberal proposition will be put forward and pass in 2012. On the other hand, if 19 passes, and the world doesn't come to an end, it could be liberalized/ Norml-ized further.

    Remember, politics is the art of the possible, not the ideal.
    Don't let the "perfect be the enemy of the good".

    This is a huge step for the wider society. Remember we live in an exceptional area, and this law is for the whole state. This is a well crafted proposition to take it as far is can go, and still get a majority vote.
    Last edited by Barry; 10-25-2010 at 10:25 PM.

    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  41. Gratitude expressed by 4 members:

  42. TopTop #24
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Veeja: View Post
    (Your fears are completely unfounded, and from my reading of the news and commentary, the only basis for those fears is anti - 19 propaganda. )

    Do you believe everything you read in the paper.?
    Vote however you like. I personally don't have time to go back and forth. I gave my two cents. And it sounds like I might have a little bit more knowledge about the cannabis industry. I am not a lier. You have called me that more then once (maybe not your exact wording) ...
    Veeja, re-read some of your posts and try to think about why you believe what you believe.
    Quote Actually, I don't have time to back anything up on this thread. I am very busy.
    You ask us to accept your expertise while admitting that you're using examples that you don't even know are relevant (the foreclosure analogy). You infer a personal attack - being called a lier - when Miles is making a more general observation. The comment "Do you believe everything you read in the paper" adds nothing, either - there no evidence that anyone here does believe everything they read, but it's a know-nothing (historical reference, not personal) type of argument; you certainly can learn things from news and commentary. (this post, by the way, isn't an attack either - I'm pointing out some ideas to consider and giving some context as to why they're relevant here).

    (By the way, anyone who saw this pre-edit: I'm fair game too! how did I miss -that-... Latecomers, you'll just have to wait till next time.)
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  43. Gratitude expressed by:

  44. TopTop #25
    Veeja's Avatar
    Veeja
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    This is what Miles said:
    (Your fears are completely unfounded, and from my reading of the news and commentary, the only basis for those fears is anti - 19 propaganda. )


    He has said this many times to me after I said I am for legalization ,just not this initiative. That to me say's I'm a lier.
    (I could say maybe Miles is big business and is throwing his weight around because he will make big profits, and thats why he is not willing to except other people opinions. So he has to call them a lier. and he has to speak loud and throw his weight around so everyone will side with him.) but i won't because I don't know that to be true. He needs to stop saying I am bias , when he is wrong. I don't want to see anyone go to jail. growers,smoker, whatever.

    As far as the foreclosure thing: Iv'e all ready said I should not have used that as an example. But there has been some initiatives past that have made big business profit off other people misfortunes. I don't have time to go look up those initiatives. When I do i will come back and point them out. But come on you have to remember what the banks were able to get away with and we baled them out. They did'nt use that money for the little guy. They lined there pockets. What could we do about it? Thats just one example. I'm not an expert. But I have some knowledge within the cannabis world. Are you an expert? Do you think Richard Lee from Oaksterdam was thinkin about others in the business. No he has the money to throw at this. He stands to make it big. Unless the feds take him out. He had a lot to do with this initiative. I commend him for sticking his neck out. But not how it is written.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    Veeja, re-read some of your posts and try to think about why you believe what you believe. You ask us to accept your expertise while admitting that you're using examples that you don't even know are relevant (the foreclosure analogy). You infer a personal attack - being called a lier - when Miles is making a more general observation. The comment "Do you believe everything you read in the paper" adds nothing, either - there no evidence that anyone here does believe everything they read, but it's a no-nothing (historical reference, not personal) type of argument; you certainly can learn things from news and commentary. (this post, by the way, isn't an attack either - I'm pointing out some ideas to consider and giving some context as to why they're relevant here).
    Last edited by Alex; 10-25-2010 at 05:09 PM. Reason: Fixed formatting
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  45. TopTop #26
    Tars's Avatar
    Tars
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Veeja: View Post
    ... That to me say's I'm a lier.....

    You have been pulled over by the WaccoBB spelling police:
    (Officer I. Manal):

    According to Merriam-Webster:
    LIAR:


    Definition of LIAR

    : a person who tells lies

    Examples of LIAR


    • She called him a dirty liar.
    • liar when he started claiming that he was an astronaut>

    Origin of LIAR

    Middle English, from Old English lēogere, from lēogan to lie ó more at lie First Known Use: before 12th century


    Related to LIAR

    Synonyms: fabricator, fabulist, fibber, prevaricator, storyteller
    Last edited by Barry; 10-25-2010 at 11:28 AM.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  46. Gratitude expressed by:

  47. TopTop #27
    Veeja's Avatar
    Veeja
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Thank you for that incite. I understand this. That is why I'm torn ,and say I'm 99% on the no side. I am not in politics and don't pretend to know how it all works. But I do think if this passes as is you will see it cause a lot of trouble and confusion ,that most people did not for see.
    Are you saying in the past when an initiative didn't pass the first time ,when it came up again it wasn't taken serious? I know your not. But it is a dilemma, because I understand your thought process on this one. It's definitely a hard one to figure. None of us really know how things will turn out if it passes. All as we can do is guess.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    If Prop 19 gets defeated, it will be interpreted as the "people" saying that they do not want marijuana legalized. It will be a big set back.

    Now is the time to move forward! Anything else will be, in retrospect, a huge se back. If 19 goes down, I highly doubt that a more liberal proposition will be put forward and pass in 2012. On the other hand, if 19 passes, and the world doesn't come to an end, it could be liberalized/normlized further.

    Remember, politics is the art of the possible, not the ideal.
    Don't let the "perfect be the enemy of the good".

    This is a huge step for the wider society. Remember we live in an exceptional area, and this law is for the whole state. This is a well crafted proposition to take it as far is can go, and still get a majority vote.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  48. TopTop #28
    Veeja's Avatar
    Veeja
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Thank you for pointing that out. I am not the best speller. But considering that ,and how bad I was in English. I have gone very far in life. And am a very happy and comfortable person. LOL!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Tars: View Post
    You have been pulled over by the WaccoBB spelling police:
    (Officer I. Manal):

    According to Merriam-Webster:
    LIAR:


    Definition of LIAR

    : a person who tells lies

    Examples of LIAR


    • She called him a dirty liar.
    • liar when he started claiming that he was an astronaut>

    Origin of LIAR

    Middle English, from Old English lēogere, from lēogan to lie ó more at lie First Known Use: before 12th century


    Related to LIAR

    Synonyms: fabricator, fabulist, fibber, prevaricator, storyteller
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  49. Gratitude expressed by:

  50. TopTop #29
    Tars's Avatar
    Tars
     

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Veeja: View Post
    Thank you for pointing that out.
    Veeja - just to be accurate here, I didn't quote you in my "Spelling Police" post; I didn't quote anyone in that post. That was intentional. I wasn't intending to be personally critical, so please don't misunderstand what happened. My intention was just to have a little fun with the word. If I'd felt I needed to quote anyone there, I would've quoted the multiple people who misspelled it. A moderator edited my post after the fact and added the quote.

    I guess I appreciate the intent, but the carry-through may have created an unfortunate impression.
    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

  51. TopTop #30
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Proposition 19: How should Stoners Vote?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Tars: View Post
    ...A moderator edited my post after the fact and added the quote.

    I guess I appreciate the intent, but the carry-through may have created an unfortunate impression.
    That would be me.
    Please accept my apologies for any hurt I may have caused.

    | Login or Register (free) to reply publicly or privately   Email

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 30
    Last Post: 11-03-2008, 09:55 PM
  2. Proposition 11 - Redistricting
    By Barry in forum General Community
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-29-2008, 09:57 AM
  3. Vote NO on proposition 8
    By Valley Oak in forum WaccoTalk
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-12-2008, 04:29 PM
  4. Where you vote affects how you vote
    By Zeno Swijtink in forum WaccoReader
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-25-2008, 04:48 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-17-2006, 09:00 PM

Bookmarks