If Americans Only Knew! (Palestinians and Jews)

[Karen]

Please phone or email the following information to your local news organizations: newspapers, radio stations, etc:

Bulletin on Suicide Bombing

Contact: If Americans Knew: 310.441.8580 / cell 415.847.1782

In the last two and a half weeks (since the previous suicide bombing) Israeli forces have killed at least 26 Palestinians -- at least 5 of them children -- and injured 161 Palestinian men, women and children. A college student lost her right eye today after being shot by an Israeli sniper last week.

There have been 369 raids by Israeli forces, mostly into the West Bank. Gaza has undergone sustained shelling by Israeli forces and continued closures, resulting in increasing lack of food and medical supplies. According to UN reports, between March 30 and April 12th, Israeli forces launched 2300 artillery and tank shells and 34 missiles into Gaza.

Since the current Palestinian uprising against Israeli military occupation and confiscation of Palestinian land began in fall 2000, approximately 3,863 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis and have been killed. Among these have been approximately 720 Palestinian children and 124 Israeli children.

Today, in separate actions, several Palestinian youths were shot, one in the neck. Israeli forces are continuing their ongoing invasions of Nablus and other West Bank cities.

Today is Palestinian Prisoners Day. 9,400 Palestinian men, women, and children are in prison. According to numerous human rights reports, Palestinian prisoners are frequently tortured. Defense for Children International reports that 4,000 Palestinian children have been arrested in the past five years, 400 of them currently in prison. They report that the arrests are increasing.

Additional Information from Defense for Children International:

According to DCI: "The process of arrest and detention of Palestinian children is a process of systematic abuse and mistreatment which flouts international legal standards and denies the basic human rights of detainees first as children and secondly as prisoners...[children are] handcuffed and blindfolded, humiliated and threatened and often beaten and kicked from the moment they are arrested up to and often throughout their interrogation and detention. They are deprived of sleep, food and access to the bathroom until so-called confessions are coerced out of them..."

At 5.30pm on Monday 10 April 2006, at least six artillery shells fired by the Israeli military fell on the family house of Mohammed Rabe'eya Ghaban in Beit Lahiya, in the north of the Gaza Strip. Shrapnel from the shells pierced the skull of Mohammed's eight-year old daughter Hadeel, killing her instantly. The shelling also resulted in the injury of eight other family members, including Hadeel's brothers and sisters:

Rawan Ghaban 1 and a half years old
Rana Ghaban 3 years old
Munir Ghaban 4 years old
Amneh Ghaban 9 years old
Ghassan Ghaban 11 years old
Bassam Ghaban 15 years old
Tahrir Ghaban 17 years old

The children's mother, 35-year old Sofia, was the eighth family member wounded in the attack.

Several neighbours were also injured including:

Jaqueline Mo'ein Maarouf 11 years old
Mariam Maher Al-'Assi 15 years old

For more information:

• https://www.imemc.org/
  

• https://www.ifamericansknew.org/
  

• https://www.nad-plo.org/main.php?view=pmg_daily-reports
  

• https://www.dci-pal.org/english/disp...4&CategoryId=1
  

• https://www.dci-pal.org/english/disp...3&CategoryId=1
  

• https://www.humanitarianinfo.org/opt/
  

Alison Weir
Executive Director
www.IfAmericansKnew.org <https://www.IfAmericansKnew.org>
310-441-8580

[toddwquigley]

Well Allison dear, Some of us do know...

We know that as long as the so called "Palestinians" keep playing their political games of bombing innocents, using brainwashed children and women, that Israel will be forced to defend itself from invaders of it's borders.

We know that when you fire rockets from a residential area, into a residential area, people are going to get hurt, women, kids, dogs, cats, well just about anybody, except the male Palestinian who actually fired the rocket into the homes of innocent Israelis.

We know that the people who call themselves "Palestinians", actually have no genetic link to the peoples that inhabited Israel before the Hebrews moved in over 3,500 years ago (IE: Hittitites, Caananites, etc.). They are actually the people that Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq wanted to get rid of (The few real Plestinians moved out when given the chance back in 1948).

We know that Iran, Hamas, etc. supplies the weapons and training so that Israeli school children can be blown up.

In other words: We know the truth.

This coming from a transsexual woman who was injured in one such bombing. The object that left me with a permanent scar in my leg was a piece of an Israeli child's skull that your friends the PLO had blown up, along with a couple dozen other schoolchildren on Purim (A jewish children's holiday) about 13 years ago

The second bombing I was a close witness to, only left my clothes permanently stained by the vaporized remains of other Israeli children and their mothers. (I still have them, maybe you should wear them for a day).

It's not that I don't feel sorry for the Palestinians, it's just that I feel a lot less sorry for them then I do for the Jews. One would think that after WWII the World wouldn't stand for a single more Jew to be killed in hate crime, but I guess you're above all that...

No, I really don't want to hear any of your justification, because a decade later, I still can't forget what it was like, no matter how much I spend on counseling.

There is only one way to fight terrorists, and unfortunately it's not pretty, but neither can terrorists be allowed to be in control. And no, anarchy doesn't work.

So, if you have something to say, I invite you to spend a day wearing the clothes I wore that day in Israel, and then maybe I will listen to you.

However, I'll bet you won't have much to say thru all the tears...

[pnicholson]

thanks karen for the article and the links. i believe that more americans do know - more than knew just a year ago. the zionists are losing their strangle hold on american jewry and americans are finally growing tired of the zionist propaganda. that the killing 'is in our name' is becoming more apparent and distressing to people. things are moving.

Please phone or email the following information to your local news organizations: newspapers, radio stations, etc:

Bulletin on Suicide Bombing

Contact: If Americans Knew: 310.441.8580 / cell 415.847.1782

In the last two and a half weeks (since the previous suicide bombing) Israeli forces have killed at least 26 Palestinians -- at least 5 of them children -- and injured 161 Palestinian men, women and children. A college student lost her right eye today after being shot by an Israeli sniper last week.

There have been 369 raids by Israeli forces, mostly into the West Bank. Gaza has undergone sustained shelling by Israeli forces and continued closures, resulting in increasing lack of food and medical supplies. According to UN reports, between March 30 and April 12th, Israeli forces launched 2300 artillery and tank shells and 34 missiles into Gaza.

Since the current Palestinian uprising against Israeli military occupation and confiscation of Palestinian land began in fall 2000, approximately 3,863 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis and have been killed. Among these have been approximately 720 Palestinian children and 124 Israeli children.

Today, in separate actions, several Palestinian youths were shot, one in the neck. Israeli forces are continuing their ongoing invasions of Nablus and other West Bank cities.

Today is Palestinian Prisoners Day. 9,400 Palestinian men, women, and children are in prison. According to numerous human rights reports, Palestinian prisoners are frequently tortured. Defense for Children International reports that 4,000 Palestinian children have been arrested in the past five years, 400 of them currently in prison. They report that the arrests are increasing.

Additional Information from Defense for Children International:

According to DCI: "The process of arrest and detention of Palestinian children is a process of systematic abuse and mistreatment which flouts international legal standards and denies the basic human rights of detainees first as children and secondly as prisoners...[children are] handcuffed and blindfolded, humiliated and threatened and often beaten and kicked from the moment they are arrested up to and often throughout their interrogation and detention. They are deprived of sleep, food and access to the bathroom until so-called confessions are coerced out of them..."

At 5.30pm on Monday 10 April 2006, at least six artillery shells fired by the Israeli military fell on the family house of Mohammed Rabe'eya Ghaban in Beit Lahiya, in the north of the Gaza Strip. Shrapnel from the shells pierced the skull of Mohammed's eight-year old daughter Hadeel, killing her instantly. The shelling also resulted in the injury of eight other family members, including Hadeel's brothers and sisters:

Rawan Ghaban 1 and a half years old
Rana Ghaban 3 years old
Munir Ghaban 4 years old
Amneh Ghaban 9 years old
Ghassan Ghaban 11 years old
Bassam Ghaban 15 years old
Tahrir Ghaban 17 years old

The children's mother, 35-year old Sofia, was the eighth family member wounded in the attack.

Several neighbours were also injured including:

Jaqueline Mo'ein Maarouf 11 years old
Mariam Maher Al-'Assi 15 years old

For more information:

• IMEMC News - International Middle East Media Center
  

• If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine
  

• :: Negotiations Affairs Department ::
  

• DCI/PS - DCI/PS call to action on Palestinian Prisoners' Day
  

• DCI/PS - Another innocent child dies in Israeli bombardment of Gaza
  

• HIC oPt website is being archived.
  

Alison Weir
Executive Director
www.IfAmericansKnew.org <https://www.IfAmericansKnew.org>
310-441-8580

[Karen the KAT]

pnicholson;

Have you no shame?

So in your warped thinking it's OK for your friends in Hamas/PLO etc. to kill innocent Israelis, because the Israelis react when attacked by terrorists?

Maybe you also should spend a day wearing my clothes splattered with the vaporized remains of Jewish Schoolchildren.

Funny how people defending their land are evil "Zionists", next you will be calling the terrorists "Freedom Fighters".

FYI: Jerusalem was founded, and built by Jews, not so-called "Palestinians". The Jews have had a claim on those lands for over 3500 years, and in fact have occupied them (if even only a few) continuously for that whole time period.

As I said, one would think that after WWII, the World wouldn't stand for a single Jew to be subject to terrorism and hate crimes, but you are apparently above all that. "It's all the evil Jew's fault", right?

"The nerve of them, wanting to be left alone in their ancestral lands, they're all a bunch of evil Zionists".

Well as an enemy of Israel you are in good company with other terrorists and their supporters: Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, pnicholson. Nice company of haters you and your friends...

You PLO sympathesizers turn my stomach, you are part of the problem, not the cure. You sit here in Sonoma, nice and safe, and make immoral judgements on something you haven't lived, based upon anti-Jewish propaganda.

So tell me, what does it feel like when the doctor removes a piece of a Jewish child's skull that slit open your leg? A child who was simply celebrating Purim, when some terrorist blew them up simply because they hate Jews.

Get your facts straight. Better yet, go live there for a while, and after you see your friends and their children get killed simply for being Jewish, maybe you'll pity the Jews.

As I said: It's sad that some poor "Palestinian" kids had to die because their menfolk like to shoot rockets and explode bombs in residential areas, but it's a lot more sad that people still think it's cool to kill innocent Jews.

Was 6 million not enough? (Number of Jews estimated to have been killed in pogroms and other hate crimes in the 200 years preceeding WWII) I guess that justified The Nazis and their 6 million more.

Nowhere in history have a people been so persecuted as the Jews, and yet liberals seem to find nothing wrong with that...

Absolutely disgusting... I'll bet you think Obama is the Messiah...

[pnicholson]

karen -

what a hateful response. even for a zionist troll. be careful of what you flow power to. and above all - be aware.

you can neither anger nor intimidate me. you have no power here.

peace,
pnicholson

pnicholson;

Have you no shame?

So in your warped thinking it's OK for your friends in Hamas/PLO etc. to kill innocent Israelis, because the Israelis react when attacked by terrorists?

Maybe you also should spend a day wearing my clothes splattered with the vaporized remains of Jewish Schoolchildren.

Funny how people defending their land are evil "Zionists", next you will be calling the terrorists "Freedom Fighters".

FYI: Jerusalem was founded, and built by Jews, not so-called "Palestinians". The Jews have had a claim on those lands for over 3500 years, and in fact have occupied them (if even only a few) continuously for that whole time period.

As I said, one would think that after WWII, the World wouldn't stand for a single Jew to be subject to terrorism and hate crimes, but you are apparently above all that. "It's all the evil Jew's fault", right?

"The nerve of them, wanting to be left alone in their ancestral lands, they're all a bunch of evil Zionists".

Well as an enemy of Israel you are in good company with other terrorists and their supporters: Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, pnicholson. Nice company of haters you and your friends...

You PLO sympathesizers turn my stomach, you are part of the problem, not the cure. You sit here in Sonoma, nice and safe, and make immoral judgements on something you haven't lived, based upon anti-Jewish propaganda.

So tell me, what does it feel like when the doctor removes a piece of a Jewish child's skull that slit open your leg? A child who was simply celebrating Purim, when some terrorist blew them up simply because they hate Jews.

Get your facts straight. Better yet, go live there for a while, and after you see your friends and their children get killed simply for being Jewish, maybe you'll pity the Jews.

As I said: It's sad that some poor "Palestinian" kids had to die because their menfolk like to shoot rockets and explode bombs in residential areas, but it's a lot more sad that people still think it's cool to kill innocent Jews.

Was 6 million not enough? (Number of Jews estimated to have been killed in pogroms and other hate crimes in the 200 years preceeding WWII) I guess that justified The Nazis and their 6 million more.

Nowhere in history have a people been so persecuted as the Jews, and yet liberals seem to find nothing wrong with that...

Absolutely disgusting... I'll bet you think Obama is the Messiah...

[Karen the KAT]

karen -

what a hateful response. even for a zionist troll. be careful of what you flow power to. and above all - be aware.

you can neither anger nor intimidate me. you have no power here.

peace,
pnicholson

Let's see, I am attending a Purim celebration with my Jewish friends, your PLO friends blow up 37 (I think was the final count) children and their mothers, I wind up in the hospital for shrapnel wounds, and lo and behold the "shrapnel" they remove from my leg happens to be part of a child's skull. That makes me a "Zionist Troll"...

Great logic, tell me how long have you lived in Israel? How many suicide attacks have you lived thru?

Palestinian troll...

You missed your calling, you should have been n a concentration camp guard, you would have found many like minded people to support your sick thinking.

Like I said, after WWII, it would seem criminal to say the things you do, (It is is Germany) the fact that you can justify (well actually you haven't said anything except that you evidently hate Jews) the death of Jews simply because they want to live in their homeland in peace is something that you need therapy for.

I don't know where you get so much hate, but it's an unfounded hate, and therefore it is by definition, a sickness.

Do you have a therapist? I recommend you get one.

As for my "hate", well you have that wrong too, I'm just disgusted by such ignorance. I didn't think such people lived in Sonoma, but I'm proven wrong. It's amazing how people use the phrase "Anti-Zionist" as a cover for their hate of the Hebrews. It doesn't fool anybody, except maybe Jew haters.

I guess the Nazi party has members even in Sebastopol. Do you hate on gypsies, gays, blacks and the mentally ill too? (Guess that would be self hate).

There's simply nothing a sane person can say that justifies your anti-Jewish hate, and trying to hide it by calling it "Zionist" is utterly transparent.

The best cure for ignorance is education, so let me set forth some facts:

The peoples who call themselves "Palestinians" have no genetic claim to that label, they are nothing more than the trouble makers whom Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Iraq kicked out. The few true Palestinians living in Israel want nothing to do with them.

Any person living in Israel that is not Jewish, is an intruder for the simple reason that the Hebrews have owned this land for over 3500 years. The peoples that lived there before the advent of the Jews were the Canaanites, the Jebusites and the Hittites, these peoples were either wiped out or assimilated over 3500 years ago (Read your history) during the formation of Israel.

The modern State of Israel is actually considerably smaller than the lands the Jews have a legitimate claim upon. Jerusalem was founded and built by Jews, any body else that lives there is at best a guest.

These so-called "Palestinians" are homeless because everywhere they have gone, they have incited trouble. They have no legitimate claim upon any lands in the State of Israel. They have simply settled there because the Jews treat them much nicer then the treatment they get in the aforementioned countries of their origin.

Your "Palestinians" are thh trouble making vagabonds of the Mid East, when they tried this behavior on the neighboring countries from whence they came, they were simply killed in large numbers until they behaved. Therefore, they settled in a place where they were treated much better; Israel. They have no legitimate claim upon this land, and it's not Israel's job to house and feed them as they are definitely not jewish.

Your beloved Palestinians are like the homeless people that hate society, so they move into the nicest neighborhoods and start all kinds of trouble, playing off the goodwill of the the people and knowing that there are enough uneducated suckers out there that they can gain a little traction.

60 years later and World opinion is still against them, because their behavior sucks, and is transparent. They bomb innocent Jews, and when the Jews react, they push their own children out in front to be sacrificed. They strap bombs on their children and explode them, they have their children walk in front so they catch any fire, their menfolk are downright EVIL people, and that's why they have no home.

They are the people who bite the hand that feeds them, and there is no place for such people in society.

You are deceived.

Please get some help, either go live over there for a while, or go see a good therapist, because you are wasting your brain and your soul on something that is completely wrong and evil.

[Debunker]

If retaliation killings brought peace, Israel would be one of the the most peaceful places on earth rather than a likely location for nuclear terrorism.

[someguy]

pnicholson;

Have you no shame?

So in your warped thinking it's OK for your friends in Hamas/PLO etc. to kill innocent Israelis, because the Israelis react when attacked by terrorists?

Maybe you also should spend a day wearing my clothes splattered with the vaporized remains of Jewish Schoolchildren.

Funny how people defending their land are evil "Zionists", next you will be calling the terrorists "Freedom Fighters".

FYI: Jerusalem was founded, and built by Jews, not so-called "Palestinians". The Jews have had a claim on those lands for over 3500 years, and in fact have occupied them (if even only a few) continuously for that whole time period.

As I said, one would think that after WWII, the World wouldn't stand for a single Jew to be subject to terrorism and hate crimes, but you are apparently above all that. "It's all the evil Jew's fault", right?

"The nerve of them, wanting to be left alone in their ancestral lands, they're all a bunch of evil Zionists".

Well as an enemy of Israel you are in good company with other terrorists and their supporters: Hamas, Hezbollah, PLO, pnicholson. Nice company of haters you and your friends...

You PLO sympathesizers turn my stomach, you are part of the problem, not the cure. You sit here in Sonoma, nice and safe, and make immoral judgements on something you haven't lived, based upon anti-Jewish propaganda.

So tell me, what does it feel like when the doctor removes a piece of a Jewish child's skull that slit open your leg? A child who was simply celebrating Purim, when some terrorist blew them up simply because they hate Jews.

Get your facts straight. Better yet, go live there for a while, and after you see your friends and their children get killed simply for being Jewish, maybe you'll pity the Jews.

As I said: It's sad that some poor "Palestinian" kids had to die because their menfolk like to shoot rockets and explode bombs in residential areas, but it's a lot more sad that people still think it's cool to kill innocent Jews.

Was 6 million not enough? (Number of Jews estimated to have been killed in pogroms and other hate crimes in the 200 years preceeding WWII) I guess that justified The Nazis and their 6 million more.

Nowhere in history have a people been so persecuted as the Jews, and yet liberals seem to find nothing wrong with that...

Absolutely disgusting... I'll bet you think Obama is the Messiah...

So tell me, do you own property in the United States? If so, you should immediately give it away to the Native Americans, or risk looking like a humongous hypocrite. After all, they lived here for thousands of years before we did, and have occupied (if only a few) these lands continuously since then. In fact, since you feel so strongly, you should probably encourage your friends to do the same.

Hate to break it to you, but there's a big difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. Nobody said anything about Jews being evil, or hating Jews, or sympathizing with terrorists. ALL terrorism is wrong, including Israeli terrorism. You seem to be implying that if anyone even mentions the Israeli government bombing civilians (which is terrorism too, by the way), they automatically hate all Jews and believe the Holocaust was justified! Sorry, but that's just insane. Bombing civilians is wrong no matter who does it. You also seem to be implying that the Israeli government is justified in bombing civilians (terrorism), because Palestinian terrorists did it first. Now who's sympathizing with terrorists? Two wrongs never make a right.

By the way, not everyone who disagrees with Israel's actions is a liberal.

[toddwquigley]

So tell me, do you own property in the United States? If so, you should immediately give it away to the Native Americans, or risk looking like a humongous hypocrite. After all, they lived here for thousands of years before we did, and have occupied (if only a few) these lands continuously since then. In fact, since you feel so strongly, you should probably encourage your friends to do the same.

Hate to break it to you, but there's a big difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism. Nobody said anything about Jews being evil, or hating Jews, or sympathizing with terrorists. ALL terrorism is wrong, including Israeli terrorism. You seem to be implying that if anyone even mentions the Israeli government bombing civilians (which is terrorism too, by the way), they automatically hate all Jews and believe the Holocaust was justified! Sorry, but that's just insane. Bombing civilians is wrong no matter who does it. You also seem to be implying that the Israeli government is justified in bombing civilians (terrorism), because Palestinian terrorists did it first. Now who's sympathizing with terrorists? Two wrongs never make a right.

By the way, not everyone who disagrees with Israel's actions is a liberal.

A) My great grandmother was one of the last pure bred Chippewea

Additionally, even after the Diaspora the Jews remained the largest majority of landowners in Israel. Actually if I was fighting for the rights of the original land owners, this would be about the aforementioned Hittites and Canaanites wouldn't it. Much like one could tell La Raza to bug off because they have nothing to do with the native tribes that originally owned the Southwest.

However I'm going with the people who built and developed the land. In this case that would be the Jews and the USA. It certainly wouldn't be the vagabond arabs (self described as "Palestinians") from the countries surrounding Israel who have made nothing but enemies wherever they have gone. They are nothing more than squatters, they have no legitimate claim whatsoever on Israel, however they could make a good argument for land in the surrounding countries from whence they came.

Again, society has no place for those who repeatedly bite the hand that feeds them. These people are treated better in Israel than the countries from which they came, and yet they continue to terrorize in hopes somebody will buy their BS (Sebastopol seems to be fertile ground).

It's funny how the countries from which they came denounce Israel for treating these people far better than they did. "You can't stay here in your own country, or we will kill you, we decree that Israel must accept and provide for you.

Nobody even mentions the tax burden on Israel to support a people who contribute nothing, sort of like how we are supposed to support illegal Mexicans. In fact, there's the perfect analogy: "Palestinians are are the illegal aliens of Israel". They have no right to be there, they produce nothing, take everything, and terrorize their hosts. And when the Israelis act to defnd against their terrorist attacks, they hypocritically label any such action as "Terrorism"

Screw that "illegal Immigrants" BS, you're only an immigrant if you act as a citizen, otherwise you're a thief. They are illegal and unwanted aliens plain and simple (as per your comments on an earlier post whether in Israel or the USA



B) The IDF doesn't indiscriminately attack and terrorize the illegal aliens, they respond as best they can to the acts of terrorism perpetrated upon them. They are watched by several LEGITIMATE watchdog groups, and are quick to investigate and punish any impropriety (There being a big difference between legitimate watchdog groups and illegal alien propaganda BS groups)

Conversely, the illegal aliens specifically target women and children in their unjustified, and internationally condemned terrorist acts.

You simply can't compare the two, and expect to be considered rational...

[toddwquigley]

If retaliation killings brought peace, Israel would be one of the the most peaceful places on earth rather than a likely location for nuclear terrorism.

You must not been awake when you composed this pearl of wisdom.

Are you awake now? OK Think about this.

If the Jews kissed the ass of every illegal alien and gave up their homes, food belonging and first born virgin daughters to them, they would still be the likely spot of nuclear terrorism, simply because ISLAM HATES JUDEA, oh and by the way, ISLAM HATES YOU AND I TOO, simply because we are no Muslim.

Do you know anything at all about Islam?

One could easily say that if appeasement worked, then Israel would be the safest place in the World, and it would be equally untrue.

Your logic is astounding.

You have debunked yourself...

Read the Koran when you wake up

The illegal aliens whom call themselves "Palestinians" are nothing more than the angry vagabonds of the Mid East whom Islam tries to use to spread anti-Israeli propaganda. The majority of the World's people see it for what it is.

Go live there for a while,

West County living will make any crazy idea seem perfectly logical. It appears that this is where the overeducated and under life-experienced come to talk in circles among themselves.

Please, prove me wrong and think before opening your mouth...

[Debunker]

So what do you propose? Israelis have been killing Palestinians for decades, about 6 for every Israeli they kill. Doesn't seem to be working does it. What now?

You must not been awake when you composed this pearl of wisdom.

Are you awake now? OK Think about this.

If the Jews kissed the ass of every illegal alien and gave up their homes, food belonging and first born virgin daughters to them, they would still be the likely spot of nuclear terrorism, simply because ISLAM HATES JUDEA, oh and by the way, ISLAM HATES YOU AND I TOO, simply because we are no Muslim.

Do you know anything at all about Islam?

One could easily say that if appeasement worked, then Israel would be the safest place in the World, and it would be equally untrue.

Your logic is astounding.

You have debunked yourself...

Read the Koran when you wake up

The illegal aliens whom call themselves "Palestinians" are nothing more than the angry vagabonds of the Mid East whom Islam tries to use to spread anti-Israeli propaganda. The majority of the World's people see it for what it is.

Go live there for a while,

West County living will make any crazy idea seem perfectly logical. It appears that this is where the overeducated and under life-experienced come to talk in circles among themselves.

Please, prove me wrong and think before opening your mouth...

[babaruss]

Israelis..... don't ya just love 'em !!
Sorry, but animosity, and sarcasm, is all I have regarding Israelis these days.
They appear to be a delusional, self centered, self serving, people...far too slow to learn from their own past suffering (at the hands of the delusional, self centered, self serving, Germans who also thought themselves to be the superior race).
baba

thanks karen for the article and the links. i believe that more americans do know - more than knew just a year ago. the zionists are losing their strangle hold on american jewry and americans are finally growing tired of the zionist propaganda. that the killing 'is in our name' is becoming more apparent and distressing to people. things are moving.

[Barry]

I've moved this thread to the Censored category as it has become too heated.

I suggest all sides have committed great crimes.

All 3 great religious traditions claim the same real estate dating back to antiquity. They all preach love. Now it time to learn how to get along - there is no other answer.

I'm visiting family over the weekend. I'll chime in more if needed next week.

I suggest to anybody reading this to try to see the other sides point of view. All are terrorists (and we are the biggest one!) and all are victims. What's needed is to bring in love, acceptance and a growing trust from all directions.

Barry

[Karen the KAT]

[QUOTE=babaruss;112752]Israelis..... don't ya just love 'em !!

Let's see, trying to survive surrounded by your enemies makes you a delusional, self centered, self serving, people? I guess when a few hundred thousand vagabonds show up and demand land and food while terrorizing your population, that makes you this way

Delusional, yep, you sure are. Try 6 months in Tel Aviv.

Better yet, you won't have to leave home: How about we move the Armory and 6th st. Mission to your property and you can feed and house all the worst, most hateful of society, of the homeless, hey it's not so bad, at least they don't bomb your family. Maybe pee on your house, kick your dog, but hey, you're not a hypocrite...

You all make it too easy for me. Try some logic instead of misplaced emotions. Hit me with some facts.

Better yet read the bloody Koran. That'll end all the BS...

Next...

Good luck

[Karen the KAT]

I've moved this thread to the Censored category as it has become too heated.

I suggest all sides have committed great crimes.

All 3 great religious traditions claim the same real estate dating back to antiquity. They all preach love. Now it time to learn how to get along - there is no other answer.

I'm visiting family over the weekend. I'll chime in more if needed next week.

I suggest to anybody reading this to try to see the other sides point of view. All are terrorists (and we are the biggest one!) and all are victims. What's needed is to bring in love, acceptance and a growing trust from all directions.

Barry

Barry, two suggestions:

A) Read the Koran.

When you get to the part where it talks about how to deal with infidels, try to tell me how much they love everyone...

B) We are by far the most generous nation that has ever existed, so I'm interested to hear where you believe us to be such big terrorists.

Exactly where have we gone and acted not in a military manner, but in the direct act of purposely inciting terror against a country we are not at war with. (I'm actually also a British citizen, and there you might gain some traction) We may behave in a expedient and sometimes harsh manner, but purposely causing terror for it's own sake isn't part of our plan.

Please, I'd love to debate this, please give me some examples of where we have acted simply to cause terror for it's own sake. I think what you are referring to is just common and accepted means of warfare.

I know it sounds a trifle legalistic, but we are talking a big accusation here. You are saying that the USA is the World's biggest perpetrator of terror upon innocent civilians, and I'd like to know how you justify that. If that's not what you meant, then why did you say it thus?

[Karen the KAT]

So what do you propose? Israelis have been killing Palestinians for decades, about 6 for every Israeli they kill. Doesn't seem to be working does it. What now?

Still not quite awake?

I said "IF", thus hypothetically, so exactly what were you saying about being psychotic (Do you know what psychotic really means, because your useage doesn't make sense. You might want to wiki that one.

I don't propose anything, there is no answer, it's all going tom end in a huge bloody war, and I can only pray that it's not Islam that wins.

Again, read the Koran, there's no infidels allowed in their World.

Therefore there can be no peace

6/1 is a pretty good ratio when facing terrorism with conventional forces. That's especially so when you consider that Israel could effectively napalm the lot of them, and nuke anybody that doesn't like it. The only people that would complain are Muslims and liberals...

Next...

[someguy]

Barry, two suggestions:

A) Read the Koran.

When you get to the part where it talks about how to deal with infidels, try to tell me how much they love everyone...

B) We are by far the most generous nation that has ever existed, so I'm interested to hear where you believe us to be such big terrorists.

Exactly where have we gone and acted not in a military manner, but in the direct act of purposely inciting terror against a country we are not at war with. (I'm actually also a British citizen, and there you might gain some traction) We may behave in a expedient and sometimes harsh manner, but purposely causing terror for it's own sake isn't part of our plan.

Please, I'd love to debate this, please give me some examples of where we have acted simply to cause terror for it's own sake. I think what you are referring to is just common and accepted means of warfare.

I know it sounds a trifle legalistic, but we are talking a big accusation here. You are saying that the USA is the World's biggest perpetrator of terror upon innocent civilians, and I'd like to know how you justify that. If that's not what you meant, then why did you say it thus?

Karen - One suggestion....

Read the bloody old testament. You'll find an assortment of bloody terrible acts committed by the Israelites there too.

But its not as though both the Koran and the Old Testament don't have their moments of love and peace.

So this is a bad argument to say that because the Koran has some nasty stuff in it, that it is all bad and evil, as the same could be said about your religious literature. Stop this silly argument.

[Thad]

This Argument is like blackberry bushes, there's some nice fruits but mostly stickers and it takes over everything. If you don't get the roots out you always have to deal with the problem.

The roots of this problem are found in History with Abraham, Isaac and Ismael.

If Conversation were to address things from this point then there can be progressive results

According to the laws of the day at that time Ismael was first born with full rights to Abraham's Heritage, there was a Violation when Isaac was made to be as the first born with all the monetary and cultural benefits of that position, Ismael was banished with a pittance.

Ismael became Islam.

Isaac became Judaism>Christianity

As if we were neighbors and you wronged me, would there ever be peace between us until you acknowledged and attempted to repair that wrong? Or would you preach the Virtues of Forgiveness as long as it was someone else who had to do it?

[Debunker]

Good luck with your war, as you may have noticed, America's not interested.

Still not quite awake?

I said "IF", thus hypothetically, so exactly what were you saying about being psychotic (Do you know what psychotic really means, because your useage doesn't make sense. You might want to wiki that one.

I don't propose anything, there is no answer, it's all going tom end in a huge bloody war, and I can only pray that it's not Islam that wins.

Again, read the Koran, there's no infidels allowed in their World.

Therefore there can be no peace

6/1 is a pretty good ratio when facing terrorism with conventional forces. That's especially so when you consider that Israel could effectively napalm the lot of them, and nuke anybody that doesn't like it. The only people that would complain are Muslims and liberals...

Next...

[babaruss]

You've already given your prejudices away. Surrounded by vagabonds...wow the sheer humanity of your view of Palestinian people
just tugs at my heart.
Who is terrorizing who ?
Whose army targets women children.
Whose soldiers wear shits showing a pregnant woman in the cross hairs saying 'two to one bullet' ?
You actually sound like you believe the Israelis are housing and feeding Palestinians...a typical Israeli self centered inflated self view.
My house is full to capacity with homeless people.
I've learned to adjust my way of living to accommodate people who have needs rather than treat them like dirt.
Read your own holy books...read about how your God demanded the heads of children be smashed against rocks, demanded everyone was to be destroyed with only the virgins saved...guess God likes young stuff right ?
Don't dare try to go pious me...your history is vile, self serving, and straight up ugly...just like Christian history, just like Islam just like anyone who insanely thinks their way is the only way and are wiilling to kill to keep things that way.
Baba


[quote=Karen the KAT;112759]

Israelis..... don't ya just love 'em !!

Let's see, trying to survive surrounded by your enemies makes you a delusional, self centered, self serving, people? I guess when a few hundred thousand vagabonds show up and demand land and food while terrorizing your population, that makes you this way

Delusional, yep, you sure are. Try 6 months in Tel Aviv.

Better yet, you won't have to leave home: How about we move the Armory and 6th st. Mission to your property and you can feed and house all the worst, most hateful of society, of the homeless, hey it's not so bad, at least they don't bomb your family. Maybe pee on your house, kick your dog, but hey, you're not a hypocrite...

You all make it too easy for me. Try some logic instead of misplaced emotions. Hit me with some facts.

Better yet read the bloody Koran. That'll end all the BS...

Next...

Good luck

[pnicholson]

baba -

by the time the koran was written most of the known world was already on to the judaists. they understood that the judaists were dead-set on dominating the entire world and relieving the planet of all non-judaists. that is what they were explicitly ordered to do by their man-made god, jehovah. devastation was their law. if they did not obey that law the consequences were dire.

a very well-written and most informative tome on the subject is douglas reed's the controversy of zion. it covers the entire history of judaism up to modern times. it is easy to read - not at all dry. i also recommend the books or videos of norman finkelstein. there are many online. finkelstein is probably the most astute, well-researched, and scholarly speaker and writer on israel/palestine. it is a genuine pleasure to attend one of his lectures - even if only online. he deals with facts. that works for me. here is a link to a good start with finkelstein: Norman Finkelstein - The Coming Breakup of American Zionism, Part 1

the whole world is watching genocide being committed against the palestinians by the israelis. the usa is footing the bill for the bullets and depleted uranium. it is not the first time, certainly, that either nation has engaged in such heinous crimes but it is happening now. and if we do not deal with what is at hand, i believe that we are all more or less doomed. strong words, i know, but i fear we are running out of time. just like the palestinians.

thank you for listening and kind regards.

[quote=babaruss;112790]You've already given your prejudices away. Surrounded by vagabonds...wow the sheer humanity of your view of Palestinian people
just tugs at my heart.
Who is terrorizing who ?
Whose army targets women children.
Whose soldiers wear shits showing a pregnant woman in the cross hairs saying 'two to one bullet' ?
You actually sound like you believe the Israelis are housing and feeding Palestinians...a typical Israeli self centered inflated self view.
My house is full to capacity with homeless people.
I've learned to adjust my way of living to accommodate people who have needs rather than treat them like dirt.
Read your own holy books...read about how your God demanded the heads of children be smashed against rocks, demanded everyone was to be destroyed with only the virgins saved...guess God likes young stuff right ?
Don't dare try to go pious me...your history is vile, self serving, and straight up ugly...just like Christian history, just like Islam just like anyone who insanely thinks their way is the only way and are wiilling to kill to keep things that way.
Baba

[babaruss]

I try to steer away from the 'world domination' talk, not that I don't believe it to be reality so much as there is a huge amount of flak which follows such discussion. Pandora's box seems to open when that subject is broached, and all sorts of creepy stuff comes flying out.
I do know that Mohamed allowed all beliefs to exist under his rule. He tossed the Jews out for mocking Islam, for destroying, and defiling Mosques. But as the tale goes...they were persecuted....and did no wrong. Now this act wasn't something that only the Jews did ...hey, the good Christians ran around destroying temples, knocking penis of statues...exhibiting all manner of rude, self centered, behavior insisting their religion was the only true religion.
I will go to the site to see what Mr. Finklestein has to say.
Thank you
Baba

[quote=pnicholson;112800]baba -

by the time the koran was written most of the known world was already on to the judaists. they understood that the judaists were dead-set on dominating the entire world and relieving the planet of all non-judaists. that is what they were explicitly ordered to do by their man-made god, jehovah. devastation was their law. if they did not obey that law the consequences were dire.

a very well-written and most informative tome on the subject is douglas reed's the controversy of zion. it covers the entire history of judaism up to modern times. it is easy to read - not at all dry. i also recommend the books or videos of norman finkelstein. there are many online. finkelstein is probably the most astute, well-researched, and scholarly speaker and writer on israel/palestine. it is a genuine pleasure to attend one of his lectures - even if only online. he deals with facts. that works for me. here is a link to a good start with finkelstein: Norman Finkelstein - The Coming Breakup of American Zionism, Part 1

the whole world is watching genocide being committed against the palestinians by the israelis. the usa is footing the bill for the bullets and depleted uranium. it is not the first time, certainly, that either nation has engaged in such heinous crimes but it is happening now. and if we do not deal with what is at hand, i believe that we are all more or less doomed. strong words, i know, but i fear we are running out of time. just like the palestinians.

thank you for listening and kind regards.

You've already given your prejudices away. Surrounded by vagabonds...wow the sheer humanity of your view of Palestinian people
just tugs at my heart.
Who is terrorizing who ?
Whose army targets women children.
Whose soldiers wear shits showing a pregnant woman in the cross hairs saying 'two to one bullet' ?
You actually sound like you believe the Israelis are housing and feeding Palestinians...a typical Israeli self centered inflated self view.
My house is full to capacity with homeless people.
I've learned to adjust my way of living to accommodate people who have needs rather than treat them like dirt.
Read your own holy books...read about how your God demanded the heads of children be smashed against rocks, demanded everyone was to be destroyed with only the virgins saved...guess God likes young stuff right ?
Don't dare try to go pious me...your history is vile, self serving, and straight up ugly...just like Christian history, just like Islam just like anyone who insanely thinks their way is the only way and are wiilling to kill to keep things that way.
Baba

[pnicholson]

i appreciate your honest response, baba. thank you. and thank you for checking out prof finkelstein. hope you enjoy his talks as much as i do.

i am afraid that pandora's box has already been opened, baba. it is now for us to deal with sorting through the spewings. an unpleasant task to be sure, but...

i am not a big fan of the christians either. but they are not at this moment engaged in apartheid in gaza. i think it is important to stay focused on the matter at hand. distraction and propaganda abound. .

freedom begets freedom and truth begets truth. perhaps in our not allowing the palestinians to be made an extinct people, we will find our own freedom.

hold on to the truth.

not only is another world possible, she is already on her way. on a quiet day i can hear her breathing ~arundhati roy~



[quote=babaruss;112801]I try to steer away from the 'world domination' talk, not that I don't believe it to be reality so much as there is a huge amount of flak which follows such discussion. Pandora's box seems to open when that subject is broached, and all sorts of creepy stuff comes flying out.
I do know that Mohamed allowed all beliefs to exist under his rule. He tossed the Jews out for mocking Islam, for destroying, and defiling Mosques. But as the tale goes...they were persecuted....and did no wrong. Now this act wasn't something that only the Jews did ...hey, the good Christians ran around destroying temples, knocking penis of statues...exhibiting all manner of rude, self centered, behavior insisting their religion was the only true religion.
I will go to the site to see what Mr. Finklestein has to say.
Thank you
Baba

baba -

by the time the koran was written most of the known world was already on to the judaists. they understood that the judaists were dead-set on dominating the entire world and relieving the planet of all non-judaists. that is what they were explicitly ordered to do by their man-made god, jehovah. devastation was their law. if they did not obey that law the consequences were dire.

a very well-written and most informative tome on the subject is douglas reed's the controversy of zion. it covers the entire history of judaism up to modern times. it is easy to read - not at all dry. i also recommend the books or videos of norman finkelstein. there are many online. finkelstein is probably the most astute, well-researched, and scholarly speaker and writer on israel/palestine. it is a genuine pleasure to attend one of his lectures - even if only online. he deals with facts. that works for me. here is a link to a good start with finkelstein: Norman Finkelstein - The Coming Breakup of American Zionism, Part 1

the whole world is watching genocide being committed against the palestinians by the israelis. the usa is footing the bill for the bullets and depleted uranium. it is not the first time, certainly, that either nation has engaged in such heinous crimes but it is happening now. and if we do not deal with what is at hand, i believe that we are all more or less doomed. strong words, i know, but i fear we are running out of time. just like the palestinians.

thank you for listening and kind regards.

[Karen the KAT]

This Argument is like blackberry bushes, there's some nice fruits but mostly stickers and it takes over everything. If you don't get the roots out you always have to deal with the problem.

The roots of this problem are found in History with Abraham, Isaac and Ismael.

If Conversation were to address things from this point then there can be progressive results

According to the laws of the day at that time Ismael was first born with full rights to Abraham's Heritage, there was a Violation when Isaac was made to be as the first born with all the monetary and cultural benefits of that position, Ismael was banished with a pittance.

Ismael became Islam.

Isaac became Judaism>Christianity

As if we were neighbors and you wronged me, would there ever be peace between us until you acknowledged and attempted to repair that wrong? Or would you preach the Virtues of Forgiveness as long as it was someone else who had to do it?

OK, wanna go back to Abraham. If you believe this then you're also advocating that GOD told ABRAHAM that Isaac was to be the one considered his first child. Well actually since Ishmael was only the child of a concubine, he would not have inherited anything anyway. So lets remember that it was Sarah who instigated this in the first place.

Lets add that up:

Never had an inheritance anyway
Never was recognized as a son
GOD said so too

Hmm, seems like Ishmael doesn't have anything coming from the tribe of Abraham. If you want to take it further, we can see that God definitely favored Isaac when he stayed Abraham's hand from sacrificing him.

When the whole story is taken into account instead of just the parts that support your hypothesis, your argument is without merit except as a case of sour grapes.

NEXT...

[Karen the KAT]

To all of you who deem yourselves experts on something because you have read about it.

How many of you have actually lived over there? Raise your hands and step forward. The rest, well you can keep believing pro-Palestinian propaganda like Finklestein.

READ THE KORAN Folks, Mohammed distinctly says it is better to send an unbeliever to paradise than to let them live in sin.

Yes, this means you, get a clue...

As long as you keep making up facts, I'll keep shooting them down.

FYI: I'm not Jewish, I just lived there for a while and saw all the hate, 90% of it was coming from the Palestinians.

I'm broke because I give away too much to the poor and homeless, so don't even waste your breath.

Many of the things you guys quote here are not real, they are imaginary things that happened only in some PLO media persons head, or at best, isolated incidences.

One person even went so far as to say "Who's military targets women and children". Let me tell you from first hand experience (I already have), it's the PLO (Call them Hamas or whatever you will, same people, same goal.

Why can't the countries of these people's origin take care of them? They are not people who came from Palestine. Here's the kicker: The real Palestinians don't want anything to do with them because these illegals give them a bad name and cause strife.

Get a clue folks.

It's simply about Islam trying to permanently stamp out Judea. The whole weight of Islam against a few million jews.. Think about that folks. were talking an advantage of almost 100 to 1.

Gee, no wonder you see so much pro-Palestinian crap. And you know what, all that, and the World still doesn't buy their BS. Well except for the geniuses in Sonoma County who read a lot, but are lacking in actual experience with the subject.

Please people, wake the fawck up, your ignorance is a sickness...

I'm not saying the Israelis are saints, but when you compare their behavior against how Islam has treated them, they look rather saintly in contrast.

[babaruss]

Big fucking deal...you spent a few months in Israel...this makes you an expert ?
Your arrogance is sickening.
You are trying to make yourself an expert here...a frigging wanna be Jew no less !!
Next !!!
Baba

To all of you who deem yourselves experts on something because you have read about it.

How many of you have actually lived over there? Raise your hands and step forward. The rest, well you can keep believing pro-Palestinian propaganda like Finklestein.

READ THE KORAN Folks, Mohammed distinctly says it is better to send an unbeliever to paradise than to let them live in sin.

Yes, this means you, get a clue...

As long as you keep making up facts, I'll keep shooting them down.

FYI: I'm not Jewish, I just lived there for a while and saw all the hate, 90% of it was coming from the Palestinians.

I'm broke because I give away too much to the poor and homeless, so don't even waste your breath.

Many of the things you guys quote here are not real, they are imaginary things that happened only in some PLO media persons head, or at best, isolated incidences.

One person even went so far as to say "Who's military targets women and children". Let me tell you from first hand experience (I already have), it's the PLO (Call them Hamas or whatever you will, same people, same goal.

Why can't the countries of these people's origin take care of them? They are not people who came from Palestine. Here's the kicker: The real Palestinians don't want anything to do with them because these illegals give them a bad name and cause strife.

Get a clue folks.

It's simply about Islam trying to permanently stamp out Judea. The whole weight of Islam against a few million jews.. Think about that folks. were talking an advantage of almost 100 to 1.

Gee, no wonder you see so much pro-Palestinian crap. And you know what, all that, and the World still doesn't buy their BS. Well except for the geniuses in Sonoma County who read a lot, but are lacking in actual experience with the subject.

Please people, wake the fawck up, your ignorance is a sickness...

I'm not saying the Israelis are saints, but when you compare their behavior against how Islam has treated them, they look rather saintly in contrast.

[Debunker]

My Jewish friend who lived for years in Israel completely disagrees with you, not that living there makes either of you an expert on anything.

Israelis span the entire spectrum of politics, education, intelligence and emotional maturity, just like any population.

Here's a recent poll of American Jews you might find interesting.
Poll: Jews Support Obama Despite Tensions With Israel Matzav.com - The Online Voice of Torah Jewry

To all of you who deem yourselves experts on something because you have read about it.

How many of you have actually lived over there? Raise your hands and step forward. The rest, well you can keep believing pro-Palestinian propaganda like Finklestein.

READ THE KORAN Folks, Mohammed distinctly says it is better to send an unbeliever to paradise than to let them live in sin.

Yes, this means you, get a clue...

As long as you keep making up facts, I'll keep shooting them down.

FYI: I'm not Jewish, I just lived there for a while and saw all the hate, 90% of it was coming from the Palestinians.

I'm broke because I give away too much to the poor and homeless, so don't even waste your breath.

Many of the things you guys quote here are not real, they are imaginary things that happened only in some PLO media persons head, or at best, isolated incidences.

One person even went so far as to say "Who's military targets women and children". Let me tell you from first hand experience (I already have), it's the PLO (Call them Hamas or whatever you will, same people, same goal.

Why can't the countries of these people's origin take care of them? They are not people who came from Palestine. Here's the kicker: The real Palestinians don't want anything to do with them because these illegals give them a bad name and cause strife.

Get a clue folks.

It's simply about Islam trying to permanently stamp out Judea. The whole weight of Islam against a few million jews.. Think about that folks. were talking an advantage of almost 100 to 1.

Gee, no wonder you see so much pro-Palestinian crap. And you know what, all that, and the World still doesn't buy their BS. Well except for the geniuses in Sonoma County who read a lot, but are lacking in actual experience with the subject.

Please people, wake the fawck up, your ignorance is a sickness...

I'm not saying the Israelis are saints, but when you compare their behavior against how Islam has treated them, they look rather saintly in contrast.

[babaruss]

You are right, Prof Finklestein does simplify the whole Palestine/Israeli problem. I'm always appreciative of the truth being brought clearly into focus instead of all the b.s. (about how complicated that peace process is). I watched part one and will go back for part two later.
There was never a day when I believed the Israelis had even the tiniest bit of a desire to get along with their neighbors...let alone give back the land they stole.
I sometimes jump into these frays (even start them) here on WaccoB.B. just to see what comes from it.
My score today was Prof Finklestein (and your thoughts on the matter).
The 'know it all' venom spewers on the list are predictable, and therefore not the least bit disturbing.
Baba


[quote=pnicholson;112802]i appreciate your honest response, baba. thank you. and thank you for checking out Prof Finkelstein. hope you enjoy his talks as much as i do.

i am afraid that pandora's box has already been opened, baba. it is now for us to deal with sorting through the spewings. an unpleasant task to be sure, but...

i am not a big fan of the christians either. but they are not at this moment engaged in apartheid in gaza. i think it is important to stay focused on the matter at hand. distraction and propaganda abound. .

freedom begets freedom and truth begets truth. perhaps in our not allowing the palestinians to be made an extinct people, we will find our own freedom.

hold on to the truth.

not only is another world possible, she is already on her way. on a quiet day i can hear her breathing ~arundhati roy~

I try to steer away from the 'world domination' talk, not that I don't believe it to be reality so much as there is a huge amount of flak which follows such discussion. Pandora's box seems to open when that subject is broached, and all sorts of creepy stuff comes flying out.
I do know that Mohamed allowed all beliefs to exist under his rule. He tossed the Jews out for mocking Islam, for destroying, and defiling Mosques. But as the tale goes...they were persecuted....and did no wrong. Now this act wasn't something that only the Jews did ...hey, the good Christians ran around destroying temples, knocking penis of statues...exhibiting all manner of rude, self centered, behavior insisting their religion was the only true religion.
I will go to the site to see what Mr. Finklestein has to say.
Thank you
Baba

[Karen the KAT]

Big fucking deal...you spent a few months in Israel...this makes you an expert ?
Your arrogance is sickening.
You are trying to make yourself an expert here...a frigging wanna be Jew no less !!
Next !!!
Baba

Almost 3 years actually..

You have zero personal experience on the scene.

I'd say that's quite a bit more than anybody I see running their mouths here...

No, not a wanna be, just not a PLO wanna be...

Do you understand that it's a simple matter of survival for the Jews? take away the Palestinian issue, and Islam would still be terrorizing Judea.

Hamas said just this...

It's not something that will go away if the Jews suddenly took in all the indigenent peoples kicked out of their own countries whom call themselves "Palestinians"..

This seems to be a stumbling block in your thinking (and many others). Get it into your mind: Islam has no place for anyone who isn't Muslim. Period... Not you, not me, and especially not the Jews

Next you'll be telling me what a wonderful peaceful religion it is.

They don't want peace, they want World domination, it says so in the Koran.

For the umpteenth time: Read the Bloody Koran... (and bloody it is)

I can tell you haven't, because you keep talking nonsense about the situation.

And for whomever was talking about the Jews wanting World domination, what a joke, this is the people who first allowed Christianity, the same people who still allow Muslims and Christians to practice their faith in Jerusalem of all places (and don't think they don't have the power to shut down the Temple Mount at their whim).

Your thinking flies in the face of common facts.

Your every post is getting angrier and angrier, and further out from the issues. Proof positive it's all about misguided emotions and not facts. You PLO wanna-bes are really a bunch of rubes. I understand wanting peace justice and happiness, but it's simply not realistic, because there are too many Muslims who are willing to die in order to see that there is no peace.

How many times has Israel tried to talk peace only to be met with another bombing. This should be a pretty obvious message, but apparently you're not getting it. Thank God you're the minority...

["Mad" Miles]

"We know that the people who call themselves "Palestinians", actually have no genetic link to the peoples that inhabited Israel before the Hebrews moved in over 3,500 years ago (IE: Hittitites, Caananites, etc.). They are actually the people that Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq wanted to get rid of (The few real Plestinians moved out when given the chance back in 1948)."

Look, I've kept my keyboard shut for the last couple of days on this thread because, what's the point, sometimes peoples blatant racism and bias speaks for them. But I can't let this pass. This view is a lie, a blatant racist lie. Anyone who has followed the history and politics of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict knows this. The only people who spout it are either: deluded partisans, or, conscious liars who are engaging in a propaganda campaign to vilify the Palestinian Arab people (who are Christians, Muslims, Druze, Secular and other religious ethnic identities).

Barry started a conversation by saying all parties are both terrorists and victims. But that's just a beginning. A phrase like, "The few real Palestinians moved out when given the chance back in 1948" elides so much of the truth as to be an expression of evil. And I do not use the word, evil, lightly. "given the chance"!!!!???

This isn't the place to revisit the entire history of what Europeans called "Palestine". A start would be to look at the history for say, the last one hundred and fifty years, with references to the history of the Jews, Arab Muslims, European colonialists, the Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire, the Jewish Empire, etc. for the last five thousand years. Only then will one begin to understand modern events.

There are plenty of books published in Israel, by Israelis, which are factual and even handed on these matters. And like anywhere there are plenty of books with completely biased, false information designed to justify the unjustifiable, also published in Israel, and Damascus, and here in the U.S., Europe, etc.

But racist calumny is what it is. And when someone spouts it in my presence, I'm going to call them on it.

My commitment to anti-racism is part of my oldest political thought and action. I've made a few mistakes in fighting against racism, most recently innapropriate examples used in class while substituting at San Quentin. Examples which were too provocative and inflamatory and which got in the way of what I was trying to accomplish. But I meant well, and overall I've had a pretty good track record.

I will not sit by while someone lies about and slanders an entire national population, in order to justify their ethnic cleansing. These arguments for the expulsion of Palestinians from their generational homes, or the complete denial that it ever happened, must be debunked. Otherwise we are accomplices in these crimes.

And yes, some of the ways the oppressed fight back, make them oppressors themselves. Note the death of three bank employees in Athens a couple of days ago. Not what the Black Block should be perpetrating, on anyone, anytime.

I support the right of Jews to a state in their ancestral homeland. I support the right of Palestinians to a state in their ancestral homeland. But they are both the ones that have to make that happen. They're obviously not doing a very good job of it. And "we" (citizens of the U.S.A.) are not doing what we should do to help them.

When in a conflict the preponderance of power is one-sided, what the weaker side does to try and hold its own, has to be understood. Not justified. Not excused. But explained and understood. And that goes for the actions of the preponderantly powerful side as well. This is not easy, but it's a beginning.

The kind of dangerous, vile nonsense that I'm responding to here, does nothing but intensify the conflict. In this case it might be irrelevant, given the bad blood and intensity of the fight for now over four generations (a conservative number, I know, I'm figuring since 1948, obviously it goes back long before that).

On the one side you have a significant number who dismiss, demonize and deny the Other. On the other side, you have the same.

I'll never forget the Palestinian mother in Chicago who, after the first Intifada in the early nineties insisted to me that all Jews were Zionists, all Zionists were murdering racists, and thereby all Israeli Jews deserved death. There was nothing I was going to be able to say, given her life experiences, that was going to sway her opinion.

Then there was my friend Adam, during the same approximate period, who vehemently insisted that all Palestinians were terrorist child murdering wanna be suicide bombers, who all deserved to die as soon as possible.

He didn't claim that the Nakba never happened. He just thought it was the right thing to do.... I never bothered arguing with him. There was no point, his mind was firmly made up.

Whatever ones opinion, there are known facts. The first link I provided above does a good job of summarizing them. I found it after a very quick google.

The trouble is, of course, in the interpretation of those facts. But some extreme interpretations are so far from any semblance of fact, as to not be worth serious consideration.