The Banning of LenInSebastopol

[Barry]

I recently banned LenInSebastopol from WaccoBB.net. While I, and many of you, did not agree with his views on many things, I did not ban him for that reason alone. In fact I tolerated his posts ( all 465 of them!) as long as I could. It was the combination of his views plus the tone of his posts, which came off arrogant and condescending to me, and the speed and volume of them that finally made it clear that we would be better off without him.

I first tried to get him to slow down and post less often, but he refused as you'll see below.

When I finally asked him to leave, 6 weeks later, I was touched by how gracious he was.

So, with his permission, I am posting our private communications completely unedited, as an example that it is possible to leave with dignity, rather than how several other characters have "left"; they try to sneak back in under different names, and even post personal attacks against me and Mrs. Wacco.

I appreciate his respect for my judgment and his cooperation.

The notes below are in chronological order and begin with his post to the "WaccoBB does not believe in FREEDOM OF SPEECH" thread, where he ironically enough defended my permissiveness.

Barry


On May 17, 2010, at 9:34 PM, LenInSebastopol @ WaccoBB wrote:

From: LenInSebastopol
Category: WaccoReader
Thread: WaccoBB does not believe in FREEDOM OF SPEECH


What's up with the capitalizing "WHITE CHRISTIANS"?
Many folks here are trying to recover from the same; is it the "white" part, or the other? Is being a Christian suppose to have folks here hate you? Love you? Or ignore you? I find the latter to be the norm here; but one thing I've yet to find is censorship and I've pushed the envelope. Yes, there are a few major poster here that will put you on the "ignore" list but that is their own sorry state, not Barry's. Post freely and often and if you've something coherent to say I am sure many will gladly share an exchange. It's a very stimulating place, but it does wipe me out on occasion, so just breath deep and take a day or two off!

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On May 17, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Barry Chertov wrote:

>> Or ignore you? I find the latter to be the norm here;

Hi there, Jack,

I would like to encourage you to post less often, for a few reasons:

First being that you are dominating too many of the conversations. I want the site to be inclusive of all participants. You jump on all threads quickly with your POV quickly and thus prevent it others from participating from an unbiased POV.

What’s more your posts are often “borderline rude, preachy and arrogant” as one user put it, and I have to agree.

So I’d like you to back off some, leave some more space for other users, participate in fewer threads, and be more open to other users points of view. You might also try asking questions more often.

Thanks for your consideration,
Barry
Moderator

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On May 18, 2010, at 5:51 AM, LenInSebastopol wrote:

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Barry Chertov wrote:
>>Hi there, Jack,
>>
>>I would like to encourage you to post less often, for a few reasons:

While you have your reasons for such a request, no I won't post less frequently.


>>First being that you are dominating too many of the conversations. I want the site to be inclusive of all participants. You jump on all threads quickly with your POV quickly and thus prevent it others from participating from an unbiased POV.

I have no idea what the above means. The site is inclusive for those that wish to post. My posts are often not as "long" as others nor take up that much more "space" on your server. I post on threads that have interest to me with a thought that I may contribute or a POV that is different in either content or presentation. As for "unbiased", I know this forum you run is for all, and a gathering place for progressive thought. With that in mind I do pose an alternative to your alternative and one would think it could be used as a stimulus for exchange. I've had a couple of such exchanges thoroughly enjoyable as well.
I did now know a POV could be unbiased.

>>What’s more your posts are often “borderline rude, preachy and arrogant” as one user put it, and I have to agree.

Well, I suppose you are right. I try not to be rude and I find I am not as rude as others; preachy? yes, I do get on my high horse, and usually set it up so that the reader look at through "moral" or ethical eyes as I find that to be the most basic in our struggle to be human. As for arrogant.....what can I say, but yes, OK. I suppose this retort is an example of such.
Can't judge...like one eye looking at another.....in my weak defense I find such accusations less so that other regular posters, who happen to agree with your position.

So I’d like you to back off some, leave some more space for other users, participate in fewer threads, and be more open to other users points of view. You might also try asking questions more often.

No, I won't back off. When I get going I will go as usual. When asked to be "more open to to others POV" I already thought I was, but I will attempt to be more conscious of it. And I will definitely ask more questions, more often. Thanks for that.
Barry, let us cut to the chase. When the time comes, simply kick me off. We will both get over rather quickly, and both will know how free of speech we really are. You will then have given an example of the modern golden rule: you got the forum, you make the rules.
Respectfully,
=Len

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On Jul 4, 2010, at 5:26 PM, Barry Chertov wrote:

Jack,

>>When the time comes, simply kick me off. We will both get over rather quickly

This time has come. You are no longer welcome on WaccoBB.net.

I hope you find other venues for your thoughts.

Barry


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On Jul 4, 2010, at 6:40 PM, LenInSebastopol wrote:

OK. but can you let me know the straw that broke it?
And thanks for letting me get this far.

Since we are doing this, II must ask a couple of other questions.
About a year ago one of your prolific posters, the good professor at Sonoma State, revealed the identity of a fellow I befriended. From what I gather it took a bit of sleuthing on the good profs part to find out all the information and then expose him in a fashion that not only could have jeopardize the fellows personal safety,as well as his family, but his job and livelihood. I see the good professor still posts, but did he ever get a reprimand from you for doing such? The fellow was as obnoxious in his POV as most I've seen, although Miles does get out there as well, and, as I, needed to be removed for peace in the valley, but still....allowing one who posts to put another's personal stuff out into the cloud!

In any case, enjoy your sport.

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On Jul 4, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Barry Chertov wrote:

You’ve been just a ½ straw away for a while now.

One contributing factor was the relief I felt when you seemed to take a break a few weeks ago. The board felt much better to me.

And your recent “puke” commentaries was another factor.

I don’t remember much of the identity issue, Sorry. If anything is still on Wacco you’d like me to remove concerning this, just let me know.

Barry


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On Jul 4, 2010, at 7:43 PM, LenInSebastopol wrote:

Thanks for the response.
Last week or two ago I took a several day fast. I looked at the forum at that time and was overwhelmed with the material I saw.....in my weakened state I was going to quit simply because it was fatiguing, and so I posted about giving it up. And you are right. I returned to the forum after the fast was broken to that post and sensed the air was clear and everyone back agreeing and supporting one another. You got a good forum going and I am sure you are a mainstay in this area. Ever consider running for office and you will have one heck of a time enjoying it all. I wouldn't vote for ya, but you would be a contender. I know you enjoy yourself and wish you the best of success in all that you do.
=

PS: Zinn really was a puke.


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On Jul 4, 2010, at 10:58 PM, Barry Chertov wrote:

Thanks!
That’s the sweetest response to a banning yet!
I appreciate it.
It’s big of you.

Barry



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[podfish]

interesting guy.

[2Bwacco]

This post is not to compare personas...it is to illustrate the possibility that exclusion can result in missed opportunities.

Think of all the people throughout history who may have been irritating, rude, outlandish, intolerable, dangerous/murderous, but who have made significant and sometimes massive contributions to human history...

Frank Lloyd Wright, Hemingway, Van Gogh, Picasso, Oppenheimer, Tesla, Vlad the Impaler ("Dracula")

In Tesla's times some considered him a "mad scientist." Only now are some of his ideas being developed into actual practice. Our science is catching up with his insight.

interesting guy.

["Mad" Miles]

This post ...is to illustrate the possibility that exclusion can result in missed opportunities...Think of all the people throughout history who may have been irritating, rude, outlandish, intolerable, dangerous/murderous, but who have made significant and sometimes massive contributions to human history...Frank Lloyd Wright, Hemingway, Van Gogh, Picasso, Oppenheimer, Tesla, Vlad the Impaler ("Dracula")...

Draculya? Really? Did you watch "The Ultimate Warrior" on SpikeTV last night in the match-off between Vlad and Sun Tsu? In which Vlad won? (Wicked sword! Where can I get me one?)

It is not my understanding that any of the people on your list consistently insulted and disparaged those they interacted with in their daily lives. Well, with the exception of Vlad, a medieval dictator who ruled by terror. I doubt such a personality meets the criteria for "conscious" "progressive" community culture.

(I often use understatement in an attempt at dry, witty humor...)

In the case of Leninsebastopol, I'm sure it's no surprise here that I don't miss him in the least. Whatever he contributed, was drowned in constant put-downs and arrogant dismissals.

I've never forgotten his comment, in the context of a news report of a pregnant black woman being tazed by a cop, in which he used the amazing and incredibly sick phrase, "a pregnant woman is just a woman with a big stomach."

Perhaps it was his idea of a joke. That's the most generous interpretation I can make of whatever he was trying to say.

One basic criteria for what constitutes a civilization, is that it is a society that protects and respects pregnant mothers and young children. With that one comment, Leninsebasto failed my simplest criteria for what it means to be civilized.

It's not the first time a consistent emotional abuser acts contrite and speaks self-reflectively and rationally, when facing the consequences of their boorish behavior.

I do respect his honesty, when asked to desist, he admitted that as long as he was permitted to post here, he would continue to "shit in the pool" (my characterization, not his). I never took him as an idiot, just a provocateur seeking to get a rise out of any soft target available, and excusing it as a contribution to dialog and inquiry.

Of course I disagree with his right-wing, reactionary political views. But I have no problem with anyone expressing such views here. As long as they don't spend as much, if not more time, goading others by attempting to insult, disparage and dismiss them by placing them in preconceived categories, i.e. easterners, marxists, socialists, communists, city folk, liberals, white people, etc...

The guy has a lot of inchoate and misdirected hate, which he seems unable to leave out of his comments while "discussing" politics and culture online.

He poisoned the well more often than he offered any clear water of knowledge.

Good riddance.



P.S. The irony that some reading the above might think that my criticisms of Leninsebas.. could also apply to me, does not escape me.

"goading others by attempting to insult, disparage and dismiss them by placing them in preconceived categories" and "has a lot of inchoate and misdirected hate, which he seems unable to leave out of his comments while 'discussing' politics and culture online" for instance.

But I try to be aware of these dangers when writing my stuff here. To the extent that any of that may be true of me, I beg that you distinguish me from Leninseb... by matters of degree, intensity and consistency. And evaluate the difference between our contributions accordingly.

They do say that the things we dislike in others, are the things we most dislike about ourselves. I've found that to be, true dat.