H1N1 Flu Shot discussion and links

[Sylph]

Why get a shot that can't possibly work? After all they started making this in the spring, and the virus they are using is a virus that lived in the spring. Unfortunately viruses are constantly mutating, so the flu that is going around now is not the same as the one that was going around in the spring that produced todays flu shot.

The vaccine is still a good match for the virus

FRIDAY, Sept. 25 (HealthDay News) -- The genetic makeup of the H1N1 swine flu continues to remain stable, making the forthcoming vaccine a "good match" for the virus, U.S. health officials reported Friday.

And, though the virus continues to spread throughout all 50 states, most cases are mild to moderate, much like the regular "seasonal" flu, the officials said.

"H1N1 is spreading widely throughout the U.S., particularly in the southern states, but in most of the country H1N1 activity is now widespread," Dr. Thomas R. Frieden, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said during an afternoon news conference.

As was the case during the outbreak in the spring, when the H1N1 swine flu first surfaced in the United States and Mexico, the disease continues to affect mostly young adults and children, Frieden said.

And though most cases are mild to moderate, the swine flu is "no picnic," he noted. When you get it, you can have several bad days, "and in severe cases, it can even put you in the hospital," he said.

Frieden said that testing shows no genetic changes in the H1N1 virus, which he described as "really good news."

Swine Flu Virus Not Mutating, Making Vaccine a Good Match: MedlinePlus

[Clancy]

Most flu is deadly, that's why on average 36,000 people a year in America die from it. BUT, compared to average seasonal flu, H1N1 is relatively mild.

No one is disputing that some people get terribly sick from H1N1, and at least several thousand will die in the US, the question is why is this particular strain being treated by the media as if it's unusual when it's actually fairly benign as flu viruses go.

My concern is that the public will become inured to the media crying wolf, and when the inevitable catastrophic flu virus does visit us, won't take it seriously.

I am a healthcare worker, working in a trauma unit locally. I have taken care of patients with h1n1. It is a deadly disease, enough so that patients have been recovering there some for weeks. I have been vacinated with the H1N1 and strongly feel by experience, that anyone who has the opportunity to get this vacine and doesn't take it is silly. I did not have any ill effects from it or my normal seasonal flu shot. I am also a proponent of herbal remedies in lieu of antibiotics when deemed, however holistic can not prevent or stop this epidemic. We are fitted with special masks and suspected h1n1 cases are isolated until ruled out. This involves mask, gown and of course gloves. Proper handwashing is essential also for prevention. So you might say, I am more apt to contract H1N1 since I am on the "front". So are you. When you shop, go to the doctors office, visit friends, get coffee. Some of you may simply disagree with me, but that's your choice. I see what this deadly virus can do. Have you? Get your shots everyone when available.

[Ridinrn]

Most flu is deadly, that's why on average 36,000 people a year in America die from it. BUT, compared to average seasonal flu, H1N1 is relatively mild.

No one is disputing that some people get terribly sick from H1N1, and at least several thousand will die in the US, the question is why is this particular strain being treated by the media as if it's unusual when it's actually fairly benign as flu viruses go.

My concern is that the public will become inured to the media crying wolf, and when the inevitable catastrophic flu virus does visit us, won't take it seriously.

In response to H1N1 being "relatively benign" and the media essentially overdoing it, I would like to know your credentials for submitting that statement....and where you get your information. Thanks

[Clancy]

The World Health Organization, The Washington Post, and the CDC among others. We've been discussing this a while here and I've provided links on several other threads.

The average rate of hospitalization for typical seasonal flu is 10 to 20 times higher than for H1N1, and only 1 out of every two thousand people who contract H1N1 die... here's one of our prior discussions with links
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...html#post99514

In response to H1N1 being "relatively benign" and the media essentially overdoing it, I would like to know your credentials for submitting that statement....and where you get your information. Thanks

[Ridinrn]

You have the links, and evidently some facts. I don't have the energy to argue with you. Nor will I. Your facts contradict what I am seeing. I took my shot. I believe their is an epidemic. I have seen what this flu can do, and the amount of resources and money it takes to save a life from contracting this flu. For instance, a roto prone bed, for a patient who develops complications directly related to the flu, with a cost of over $3,000/day, plus medications and care. This is not about money, it is about more than facts for something that is preventable at least lessened with a shot. Call the Sonoma County Health Department for information, not rely on a "thread" for information as important as an epidemic.

[Clancy]

Thanks for your response, your post illustrates very clearly the problem.

You have the links, and evidently some facts. I don't have the energy to argue with you. Nor will I. Your facts contradict what I am seeing. I took my shot. I believe their is an epidemic. I have seen what this flu can do, and the amount of resources and money it takes to save a life from contracting this flu. For instance, a roto prone bed, for a patient who develops complications directly related to the flu, with a cost of over $3,000/day, plus medications and care. This is not about money, it is about more than facts for something that is preventable at least lessened with a shot. Call the Sonoma County Health Department for information, not rely on a "thread" for information as important as an epidemic.

[Sylph]

The emphasis in allopathic medicine and the media is on the vector, the virus; feared as a terrorist out to slay the innocent victim. Personal responsibility for one's health, parental responsibility for supporting your children's health, these are the underlying issues associated with susceptibility. The positive actions that one can take toward balancing and supporting your immunity are minimalized or unspoken.

Actually, most articles I’ve read do emphasize hygiene, nutrition and adequate sleep…along with the vaccine, to stay healthy and not get the flu.

In actuality, very few people die directly from the viral illness; the majority of these deaths are secondary infections usually pneumonia. Underlying chronic disease is generally associated with these unfortunate individuals that succumb.

I agree that pneumonia is the common cause of death, after flu weakens the immune system. So, you don’t die of the virus...you still die! (or you are very ill, requiring IV antibiotics and supportive treatment in the hospital, good old “allopathic medicine”)
A hefty 30% of flu victims are “healthy” with no underlying health issues.

However, with the fear and panic associated with H1N1 flu this year, the state has lifted the ban and is allowing vaccines containing these preservatives, thimerosal, squalene, formaldehyde, to be available for immunization of the masses.

The amount of mercury you get in a flu vaccine is extremely tiny compared to our daily environmental exposure. The multidose vaccine has to have a preservative. The nasal "live attenuated" vaccine has no thimerisol
https://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/f-thiomersal.html
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14

Squalene is not in American flu vaccines. It’s been in European vaccines with no negative effects. It’s not dangerous.https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/t...nd_answers/en/
https://thefastertimes.com/clinicalu...-h1n1-vaccine/
Formaldehyde is found in our tissues…it’s natural.
https://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVa.../ucm187810.htm

Common sense health habits to prevent infection make sense. Washing your hands regularly; eating nutritiously; getting adequate sleep, 7 hours +; getting regular outdoor exercise; balancing your life so that work (school), stress, and debt, do not overshadow home life, relaxation time, and loving relationships. As seasonal influenza and H1N1 are airborne viruses, saline nasal rinses and oral saline gargles can rinse away the virus from the portals of our bodies, inhibiting the virus if you do get exposed.

Good advice, for the most part.
However, if the virus gets into your cells and starts reproducing, no amount of rinsing will wash it away!

[Clancy]

I'm always open to learning, do you have a link?

ALL the actual, factual information I can find says H1N1 is comparatively mild, and that the death rate is a fraction of average seasonal flu.

Of course I'll get one and so will my daughter. Clancy, you're wrong about this being "mild." It's killing more people by this point in the flu season than is usually the case and is now predicted to be the most dangerous flu in modern times here in the US. A lot of people are going to die.

This is a standard flu vaccine, nothing special or scary. There are no adjuvants, though that's really too bad since they do work.

To those suggesting they will "boost their immune systems," I have to ask: by doing what? Taking a lot of pills every day? How natural of you. Do they come from the organic pill tree? Think about it people. Taking a pile of pills every day isn't natural, but it is what Big Pharma wants you to do since the half a dozen largest pharmaceutical companies make nearly all the white powder drugs you find in your pills at the "health food" stores whether they say "natural" on them or not.

Vaccines are the natural way to boost your immune systems in a way tuned in exactly to the pathogen you want protection from. That's what vaccines do. Think about it. Learn about it. Just go to sources that can back up what they say and doubt anything you see on youtube. That's about the worst source for information out there.

Hope you all stay well.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

I'm always open to learning, do you have a link?

ALL the actual, factual information I can find says H1N1 is comparatively mild, and that the death rate is a fraction of average seasonal flu.

Google helps: VOA News - Nearly 4,000 People Die From H1N1 in US

-Jeff

[Clancy]

An actual comparison to the average rate of flu deaths would help FAR more. It would actually tell us how H1N1 compares to the average. Don't you think it's odd that you don't see it plastered all over the media?

You made a specific claim: "It's killing more people by this point in the flu season than is usually the case"

I'm willing to change my mind, please show some evidence or consider changing yours.

Google helps: VOA News - Nearly 4,000 People Die From H1N1 in US

-Jeff

[Braggi]

A comparison to the average rate of flu deaths would help FAR more. It would actually tell us how H1N1 compares to the average. Don't you think it's odd that you don't see it plastered all over the media?

It has been all over for the last week. It's not dangerous unless it goes for the lungs, opens the pathway to secondary infection, causes multiple organ failure and death. Then it's serious.

The people most susceptible to death are young healthy people, just like in 1918. A generally strong immune system is turned against the victim.

The real fear is the possibility that H1N1 will combine with H5N1, the avian flu, which would make a virus that spreads quickly and easily (H1N1) and has a 70% death rate (H5N1). That's why it's so important to limit the spread now.

-Jeff

[Clancy]

There's lots of hype and fear mongering all over the media, but the only actual numbers I can find show that H1N1 is infecting and killing significantly less people than average seasonal flu.

Again, don't you think it's odd that you can't show me a comparison to the average rate of deaths?

It has been all over for the last week. It's not dangerous unless it goes for the lungs, opens the pathway to secondary infection, causes multiple organ failure and death. Then it's serious.

The people most susceptible to death are young healthy people, just like in 1918. A generally strong immune system is turned against the victim.

The real fear is the possibility that H1N1 will combine with H5N1, the avian flu, which would make a virus that spreads quickly and easily (H1N1) and has a 70% death rate (H5N1). That's why it's so important to limit the spread now.

-Jeff

[alanora]

An associate of mine had the flu shot about a month ago and got Gullian barre syndrome and when last I heard was going to need a ventilator for support while the thing ran its course. He is totally paralyzed at this time, unable to breathe on his own. Coincidence? I do not know.

Question for Waccobians - If H1N1 flu shots were available to you right now, at your primary care outlet, at the regular price paid there, would you get a shot?

[Braggi]

An associate of mine had the flu shot about a month ago and got Gullian barre syndrome and when last I heard was going to need a ventilator for support while the thing ran its course. He is totally paralyzed at this time, unable to breathe on his own. Coincidence? I do not know.

Yes. Coincidence.

-Jeff

[ItsaNewDawn]

Hello,
its interesting to note how our beliefs about something affect the outcome. those strongly pro-vaccine have strong beliefs about it. Each to his/her own, right? just that we need to be more informed about the choices!
Simply searching on you tube there are MANY videos about why NOT to take it. If you are so inclined to research as time permits.
My other fav site is consciousmedianetwork.com she has numerous posts under videos, describing more details.


YouTube - Mr. Siebel - Doctor says H1N1 vaccine is Dangerous

YouTube - Mercola / Fisher Swine Flu Vaccine Q&A 1, 10-21-09
Dr. Mercola

YouTube - Natural Ways to Boost Your Immune System
natural immune booster from Dr Mercola


YouTube - Makers Of Vaccine Refuse To Take H1N1
makers of it wont take it

YouTube - Swine flu / H1N1 - Lesson from the 1976 vaccine disaster
1976 1st tempt at vaccinating

Blessings and Light, may we all see and find the Truth and yet feel not fear. with the truth, fear disappers... thats part of why I post and why I seek knowledge.

[Clancy]

its interesting to note how our beliefs about something affect the outcome...

Yes, but that's often not a good thing.

When I was a psychology student, we learned about a major study that showed that when people have an emotional investment in a particular belief and they are shown scientific evidence that is contrary to their belief, not only does it not change their mind, it further entrenches them in their erroneous belief. AND, the greater the emotional investment, the greater the effect.

Intellectual integrity and actual open-mindedness are all too rare, but, like a sense of humor, almost everyone thinks they have it.

[Braggi]

Hello,
its interesting to note how our beliefs about something affect the outcome. those strongly pro-vaccine have strong beliefs about it. Each to his/her own, right? just that we need to be more informed about the choices!
Simply searching on you tube there are MANY videos about why NOT to take ...

And posts like this is why I mentioned youtube is about the worst place to look for guidance. Mercola is a liar, a cheat and a criminal. He's been slapped on the wrists numerous times for selling his snake oil with lies. I think he should be rotting in prison for murder. His lies kill people.

It's not to each his own. Your failure to vaccinate your kid could kill my kid. That's beyond irresponsible, it's child abuse, and by extension, is manslaughter.

No, I'm not pulling punches, because this discussion has gotten too serious. The anti vaxers are beyond stupid, they're dangerous.

-Jeff

[ItsaNewDawn]

whoa~ the whole point is CHOICE. We each have our Own choice!
Im sure there is something opposite for you that you would want to have the option/choice TO do something. For ex, you have the choice! to vaccinate since you so choose. Not all people are the same or react the same.
We are all here living together letting each other make their own choices. yet harm none.

And posts like this is why I mentioned youtube is about the worst place to look for guidance. Mercola is a liar, a cheat and a criminal. He's been slapped on the wrists numerous times for selling his snake oil with lies. I think he should be rotting in prison for murder. His lies kill people.

It's not to each his own. Your failure to vaccinate your kid could kill my kid. That's beyond irresponsible, it's child abuse, and by extension, is manslaughter.

No, I'm not pulling punches, because this discussion has gotten too serious. The anti vaxers are beyond stupid, they're dangerous.

-Jeff

[Barry]

...
To those suggesting they will "boost their immune systems," I have to ask: by doing what? Taking a lot of pills every day? How natural of you. Do they come from the organic pill tree? Think about it people. Taking a pile of pills every day isn't natural, but it is what Big Pharma wants you to do since the half a dozen largest pharmaceutical companies make nearly all the white powder drugs you find in your pills at the "health food" stores whether they say "natural" on them or not.

Vaccines are the natural way to boost your immune systems in a way tuned in exactly to the pathogen you want protection from. That's what vaccines do. ...

These seem to be a whole bunch more natural than vaccines:

From: Antiobiotic Alternatives

Grapefruit Seed Extract
A grapefruit bioflavonoid concentrate works well to help knock out a cold. Grapefruit seed extract is a product you can use if you feel an infection coming on. You can take one 100 mg tablet every four to five hours or a few drops of the liquid. There are also anecdotal reports from women that grapefruit seed extract will effectively cure urinary tract infections.

Echinacea
The herb echinacea, sometimes combined with goldenseal in formulas, is an effective immune stimulant, but works best when used early on in an infection. Some people are allergic to it, so if you take a dose and feel worse, stop taking it!

Olive Leaves
Olive leaves have been used medicinally for centuries to treat fever, malaria, colds, and fungal infections. Modern research shows that a bitter constituent of olive leaves called oleuropein has antibacterial, antiviral, and antiprotozoal effects. The best way to take olive leaf as a supplement is as an extract in capsule or liquid form.

Homeopathic Remedies
Oscillococcinum is a homeopathic remedy I recommend for preventing and relieving the symptoms of the flu. This is a great remedy to travel with and to keep in the medicine cabinet, as it can quickly knock out a flu.

Chinese Herbal Remedies
Yin Chiao is a Chinese herbal remedy that's good for preventing colds and flus. It can actually prevent a full-blown cold if taken soon enough.

EpiCor
EpiCor is a fermented yeast product that enhances natural killer cell activity and helps modulate and strengthen the immune system. It contains a unique blend of vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and antioxidants that research has shown to be very effective in warding off colds and flus. This is a supplement that can be taken daily during cold and flu season as a preventive.

Russian Choice Immune
This is a probiotic that originated as a fermented milk product in Eastern Europe. It supports the immune system and the gastrointestinal system.

Elderberries
American Indians have a long history of using Elderberries, primarily for the treatment of infections. Elderberries contain anti-inflammatory bioflavonoids that have been shown in test tube studies to inhibit viral growth. Specifically, elderberry flavonoids can stifle the activity of a protein needed by the flu virus to multiply and spread. It's no surprise that elderberry is especially effective against viral infections such as the flu and the common cold.

Vitamins
Take vitamin C to tolerance, and take vitamin A (10,000 to 15,000 IU a day) for up to two weeks.

Many people think that you can kill the germ with an antibiotic, and your infection problem is solved. For the past 50 years, this is how conventional medicine has been treating patients. But 98% of those infections would have become better with some very basic care, like rest and fluids. Antibiotics do nothing to get rid of a virus when you have a cold or the flu. Here are some thoughts about common infections.

[Braggi]

These seem to be a whole bunch more natural than vaccines: ...

Barry, I love you and I love what you do for the Wacco community, but please, learn something about health care. The flu isn't caused by bacteria. None of those things on your list will help with the flu.

Please support your assertions with some science. Alternatives to antibiotics, and BTW, I can shoot holes in any argument that any of those things are actually alternatives to antibiotics, aren't going to help against the flu.

Let's talk about H1N1. Why wouldn't you vaccinate your child? ... or yourself?

-Jeff

[Braggi]

These seem to be a whole bunch more natural than vaccines: ...

Barry, what stimulates immune systems is pathogens; not vitamins, not herbs, certainly not homeopathy which does nothing. The healthiest kids, in terms of resistance to diseases, allergies and asthma are kids raised on farms where mom never heard of Clorox. One of the main reasons breast feeding builds kids with strong immune systems is the exposure to pathogens on mom's skin as well as mom's antibodies contained within breast milk. Most of the people reading this will not go back to breast feeding, so I suggest the next best thing: vaccines. They are engineered to stimulate the immune system since they ARE exposure to pathogens; albeit pathogens that have been reduced in virulence by various means. In some cases the pathogens are not identical to the one the vaccine is designed to protect from, but in any case, vaccines encourage the immune system to mount a response that, hopefully, will also protect against the more dangerous pathogen, in this case the H1N1 flu virus. That's science Barry. All of my statements can be confirmed if the reader wishes to use google.

I repeat: none of the things you listed will reduce the spread or virulence of H1N1. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

-Jeff

PS. The best thing parents in cities can do to reduce the chance their offspring will have allergies or asthma is have both dogs and cats during the first year of life and avoid anti bacterial anything. That's what the research shows.

[Braggi]

whoa~ the whole point is CHOICE. We each have our Own choice! ...

Well, it's about a lot more than choice. It's about a virulent flu virus running rampant around the globe and killing thousands of people. It's about a safe, effective vaccine now available (in some places) that will offer resistance to that virus should you become exposed to it. It's about the relationship of these things to the society we live in and the fact that if enough people get vaccinated we will improve the so called "herd immunity" and reduce the number of people exposed to this virus that's killing people.

The problem is that just one person getting vaccinated won't necessarily keep that person from getting harmed by the flu. If a whole lot fewer people are going about sharing their germs with others because those people got vaccinated, then fewer people will come down with the flu, even those who did not get vaccinated.

It is the people who make the choice to get vaccinated that are protecting the others. If enough get vaccinated we'll develop the herd immunity that means many fewer will become infected.

Those who don't get vaccinated make the choice that means they are more likely to infect others. That's how your choice effects me.

I'm very libertarian minded and wouldn't want the government to take the choice away from you.

Choose well.

-Jeff

[quincydoc]

Thanks Braggi for holding on to the science-based position on the flu vaccines! To really find out what the H1N1 flu is capable of, read "The Great Influenza" by John Barry---meticulously documented, reads like a novel. Or "Flu" by Gina Kolata.. This virus was capable of killing people within 48-72 hours from acute respiratory collapse (not bacterial pneumonia). A few people have gotten this variety this year and in-hospital mortality is STILL over 20%. We've been lucky so far that the current virus hasn't taken that last mutation step. PS: it wasn't overdoses of aspirin that killed 50 million people in 1918..... it was "the flu".

For up to date info: cdc.gov/flu

Well, it's about a lot more than choice. It's about a virulent flu virus running rampant around the globe and killing thousands of people. It's about a safe, effective vaccine now available (in some places) that will offer resistance to that virus should you become exposed to it. It's about the relationship of these things to the society we live in and the fact that if enough people get vaccinated we will improve the so called "herd immunity" and reduce the number of people exposed to this virus that's killing people.

The problem is that just one person getting vaccinated won't necessarily keep that person from getting harmed by the flu. If a whole lot fewer people are going about sharing their germs with others because those people got vaccinated, then fewer people will come down with the flu, even those who did not get vaccinated.

It is the people who make the choice to get vaccinated that are protecting the others. If enough get vaccinated we'll develop the herd immunity that means many fewer will become infected.

Those who don't get vaccinated make the choice that means they are more likely to infect others. That's how your choice effects me.

I'm very libertarian minded and wouldn't want the government to take the choice away from you.

Choose well.

-Jeff

[Clancy]

Science based? I don't think so. Science based would show us a comparison of H1N1 rate of infection and mortality compared to the average seasonal flu, which shows that H1N1 is comparatively mild.

Yes, any flu virus can mutate into a nightmare strain like the one that killed millions, but H1N1 has not, and is significantly less lethal than the average seasonal flu.

As I have said before, I'm open to changing my mind, please show me a link to a reputable, scientific comparison between H1N1 and the average seasonal flu.

Thanks Braggi for holding on to the science-based position on the flu vaccines! To really find out what the H1N1 flu is capable of, read "The Great Influenza" by John Barry---meticulously documented, reads like a novel. Or "Flu" by Gina Kolata.. This virus was capable of killing people within 48-72 hours from acute respiratory collapse (not bacterial pneumonia). A few people have gotten this variety this year and in-hospital mortality is STILL over 20%. We've been lucky so far that the current virus hasn't taken that last mutation step. PS: it wasn't overdoses of aspirin that killed 50 million people in 1918..... it was "the flu".

For up to date info: cdc.gov/flu

[Braggi]

... As I have said before, I'm open to changing my mind, please show me a link to a reputable, scientific comparison between H1N1 and the average seasonal flu.

Damn, I did find an article that did just that and I thought I posted it. I'll have to find it again and post it later today. Yes, Clancy, this is already comparatively more deadly than the average "seasonal" flu based on the time of year.

-Jeff

[Clancy]

Actually, the link you provided yesterday did not show anything of the kind.
VOA News - Nearly 4,000 People Die From H1N1 in US

And before you say that the 540 childhood deaths are a comparison, you should know that the CDC is counting any fatality where the strain in question is present, for the first time in their history. Normally, they only consider a fatality due to the flu virus if the patient dies of flu complications.

Damn, I did find an article that did just that and I thought I posted it. I'll have to find it again and post it later today. Yes, Clancy, this is already comparatively more deadly than the average "seasonal" flu based on the time of year.

-Jeff

[ItsaNewDawn]

YouTube - Expert Pediatrician Discusses Vaccines (Part 8)
the first two minutes addresses your concern. science based from doctors.

Well, it's about a lot more than choice. It's about a virulent flu virus running rampant around the globe and killing thousands of people. It's about a safe, effective vaccine now available (in some places) that will offer resistance to that virus should you become exposed to it. It's about the relationship of these things to the society we live in and the fact that if enough people get vaccinated we will improve the so called "herd immunity" and reduce the number of people exposed to this virus that's killing people.

The problem is that just one person getting vaccinated won't necessarily keep that person from getting harmed by the flu. If a whole lot fewer people are going about sharing their germs with others because those people got vaccinated, then fewer people will come down with the flu, even those who did not get vaccinated.

It is the people who make the choice to get vaccinated that are protecting the others. If enough get vaccinated we'll develop the herd immunity that means many fewer will become infected.

Those who don't get vaccinated make the choice that means they are more likely to infect others. That's how your choice effects me.

I'm very libertarian minded and wouldn't want the government to take the choice away from you.

Choose well.

-Jeff

[Sylph]

[Swine flu: Eight myths that could endanger your life - New Scientist

The 36,000 figure comes from epidemiological studies. Because the timing of flu outbreaks varies from year to year, the normal number of deaths in any month can be compared with the number of deaths in the same month when there was a flu outbreak, says Lone Simonsen of George Washington University in Washington DC. Such studies reveal a bulge in deaths during and just after the flu season every year, mainly among the elderly. Many are clearly due to flu and other lung infections that can follow it, but more than half are not obviously connected, because flu often kills in indirect ways, by triggering heart attacks or strokes, for instance.
By contrast, the deaths attributed to swine flu are those directly caused by respiratory infection with the pandemic virus. Indirect deaths - the majority of the 36,000 figure for regular flu - are not being counted. The full death toll for 2009 H1N1 flu will not be known for a while, if ever. Perhaps there will be fewer deaths than normal because older people, more at risk from secondary events such as heart attacks, have some immunity to the virus. However, the total seems likely to be higher simply because the virus will infect far more people than normal, and it kills directly more often.
The impact of a pandemic is not simply about the number of deaths, though. This pandemic, like previous ones, is killing mainly young people, not the very elderly as flu normally does (see diagram). By early October, 76 children and adolescents in the US had already died of swine flu (see diagram). That is more than the usual winter toll, and the winter has just begun.

1. The H1N1 has hit earlier, more people infected equal more deaths
2. It kills more "directly" as opposed to by secondary infections
3. More children and young people have died with this flu. (more tragic, some would say, more years lost)

But, we won't have a good comparison, (if ever), until after the fact.
The odds are you won't die if you get it...But, if you or your child are one of the few, it would be a death that was preventable by the vaccine.

This year, I have many friends who have gotten the "swine" flu, and had a very rough week with it, bedridden and miserable, but they are OK, now. Given a choice, they would have taken the shot to avoid a week of hell!
If you aren't planning to get the shot, make sure you have someone who can take care of you (and your children) for a week. Hopefully, you are in a job with paid sick leave. Have plenty of food in the fridge, because you won't feel like going out, nor should you be out.
If you can't afford to be down and out for a week or more, get the vaccine!

[Clancy]

We still don't have an actual comparison, which I find puzzling to say the least, because we have libraries of data to draw from. What I keep seeing are convoluted explanations why we don't see scientific comparisons.

If H1N1 mortality were higher than average, it would be an easy task to tease out specific, comparative markers from the mountains of flu data available.

[Swine flu: Eight myths that could endanger your life - New Scientist

1. The H1N1 has hit earlier, more people infected equal more deaths
2. It kills more "directly" as opposed to by secondary infections
3. More children and young people have died with this flu. (more tragic, some would say, more years lost)

But, we won't have a good comparison, (if ever), until after the fact.
The odds are you won't die if you get it...But, if you or your child are one of the few, it would be a death that was preventable by the vaccine.

This year, I have many friends who have gotten the "swine" flu, and had a very rough week with it, bedridden and miserable, but they are OK, now. Given a choice, they would have taken the shot to avoid a week of hell!
If you aren't planning to get the shot, make sure you have someone who can take care of you (and your children) for a week. Hopefully, you are in a job with paid sick leave. Have plenty of food in the fridge, because you won't feel like going out, nor should you be out.
If you can't afford to be down and out for a week or more, get the vaccine!

[ItsaNewDawn]

YouTube - Expert Pediatrician Discusses Vaccines (Part 7)

starting at 4min mark

Because, people could still be a carrier EVEN if they received the vaccine shot.
its not about us n them or class wars.

Please offer your ideas in a nice way, non-threatening and we can all learn to live together and agree to disagree.