Sex and Christians

[dw41552]

[This thread was split off from https://www.waccobb.net/forums/conscious-relationship/51171-sex-sake-sex.html#post86482 ]

I'd love to give a response from a Christian view point. But first I must say, these are my beliefs like them or not. You have the choice to except or reject them that's up to each individual. Either way I just want everyone to know I do not feel superior to anyone. We are all equals. I'm just sharing what I believe with all my heart God has taught me.

I do not believe in fornication. In my opinion sleeping together just for the sake of sex, is just sex. I also believe God intended sex for two purposes, procreation and a reward for two people, a man and a woman who take the time to really get to know each other and fall truely in love without the distraction of sex, and then marry making a life time commitment to each other.

Oh, I can just hear it now. How ya gonna know if it's any good unless you take it for a test drive. I get this one all the time. We're not talking about a car here for crying out loud.

Let me explain it this way. I'm sure most all of you like cake right? My favorite is orange cake with orange icing. A man and a woman meet. They make a good first impression so they start dating. They've decided to refrain from sex as they are both Christians. In 18 months they have gotten to know each other inside and out and enjoy each other to the point of truely falling in love. They have baked the cake. The cake being the foundation for the next step, marriage. Now that they are married it's time to ice the cake. I don't like the word sex at this point, I like to think of it as, "making love" the icing on the cake. Now you can have the icing without the cake and it tastes pretty good, but it's just not the same as having a moist warm orange cake smothered with orange icing.

I truely believe if couples would instead of connecting at the hips first, connect first with their hearts and minds, the divorce rate wouldn't be near as high as it is. And don't forget, look what happens when people use sex for other than what God intended it for. Abortions, STDs, babies having babies, single moms, children being born to extreme poverty and dying from starvation, and the list goes on, none of which would happen if used God's way.

I have a question for every one. What percentage of marriages where sex was no longer a possibility would survive?

God bless

[MsTerry]

Abortions, STDs, babies having babies, single moms, children being born to extreme poverty and dying from starvation, and the list goes on, none of which would happen if used God's way.

Butch, Butch, Butch.
Are you saying that no Christians are poor, born to extreme poverty, are single parent or even have STD's???

[MsTerry]

There would be no shortage of fuel, no shorting of fresh water, virtually no pollution!!!

Only a shortage of food???

No factories to make all the stupid stuff we have in our homes.

Uhmmmmmmmmmm, aren't you the one supplying all that stuff to make a living?

[mykil]

I am not sure how to say this without hurting your feeling Jason so I am just going to say it! You truly DO NOT know what love is!

Mzt as usual you missed the point completely! I would love nothing more than to be living of a commute growing our own vegetables, only cutting enough wood to house everyone close together, as in living in one or two dwelling as in just being and receiving love from one another Too much love to eat or even grown an artificial creature as food. There for we would never run out of nutrients as we are on the verge of doing now, our oceans would be for pleasure and magnificent adventures instead of filling them full of plastic and ever even throwing a net across the water to catch the little creatures and munching them down. We are cannibals stuck in a hell we have designed for ourselves and no one seems to get this. Love is all around us, WE are love, yet we have boundaries we adhere to and make our own living hell. Sp for all your religious fanatics once again, WE are LOVE, LOVE is GOD, and GOD is WE!

[dw41552]

Butch, Butch, Butch.
Are you saying that no Christians are poor, born to extreme poverty, are single parent or even have STD's???

Not at all MsTerry. My message is for all believers and non believers alike. I will be the first to say that these things are almost as prevalent in the church as outside the church. When I bacame a Christian, I did not all of a sudden become perfect. I'm not capable of such righteousness. I really wish I was!! Not every choice I make is within the will of God, and I pay the conseqences just like every one else. However because of my faith, the more I rely on Jesus, the less I live outside the will of God, and the less likely one of these things will happen to me. The more we do our own thing living outside His will, the more we put ourselves as well as those we claim to love at risk.

God bless

[dw41552]

I love this. It's amazing how the mention of God can whip up such a frenzy. This two week old thread more than doubled in posts in less than 12 hours. because of the mention of God and His way.

looks like I woke this thread up and got your attention.

All I'm doing is trying to share what I know to be a better way though personal experience and what The Good Lord is teaching me.

Jesus who is God in human form loves us. He loves us in word and action. He always put our needs before his own. He came and lowered Himself below us and to serve us, to die a brutal horrible death so that we may live. That's love. It's putting the needs of others before self. You know, "what can I do for you?" instead of, "what can you do for me." Love is a balance of power, not having power over another. Love is dreaming together and helping each other to realize those dreams. Some powerful words passed on by my good friend Pastor Kevin at church today. Our church name was recently canged to City Church, (Non denominational) because it is our mission to love and serve our community. We have no church building of our own nor desire one. Our service is held in a building loaned to us so that the money we save can be better used to help those in need. That's love! We are not a perfect church and we are full of flawed people but we certainly try our best to be a loving giving church.

The problem with the world is we've become more narcissistic than at any other time in history. We think of self before others. I assure you it is impossible to find love through sex. Having sex with someone you're not married to is to fulfill a selfish desire. You put that person at risk. I can hear it now, "what risk?" How about pregnancy for one. There's this worldly concept called, "safe sex." Well guess what? There is no such thing. There have been over 48 million abortions since 1973 that we know of, just in the US alone. Out of the 48 million 42% were using some form of contreceptive at the time they got pregnant. Then there's the most easily spread STD herpes which only requires skin contact down below to become infected, and there is no cure. So much for safe sex. Putting another at risk even if the risk is low is not love. It is selfishness. The safest sex of all is between a man and a woman who are truely in love, married, and try their best to live according to God's will.

Sex is not an expression of love except in marriage, and even then it plays a small part in the overall picture. Baking the cake is building a strong fountation made out of selfless love, which leads to a lifetime comittment. Marriage is an outward showing of the love between a man and a woman, an example of Gods way. The sex is just the icing on the cake. It alone could never ever sustain love or any relationship.

God bless

[pjpete]

The Way Home

Here are the key elements by which we become reconciled to the Father. Each is vitally important. Any, if absent, could keep our new relationship from being complete.

Our condition: First, we must understand that we are separated from God. The chasm dividing us is both wide and deep. We inherited a fatal defect at birth. As a result, we have lived our lives independently from him. The Bible emphasizes this stark reality: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). If we can’t come to grips with the fact that sin separates us from God, we’ll never come home spiritually, for there is no need for a savior.

God’s remedy: Second, we need to be very clear in understanding who Jesus is and what he has done for us, in order that we might confidently place our faith in him. He bridged the chasm separating us from God. In the apostle John’s words: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).

Jesus was not just a good man, a great teacher, an inspired prophet. He came to earth as the Son of God. He was born to a virgin. He led a sinless life. He died. He was buried. He rose again on the third day. He ascended into heaven where he became both Lord and Christ.

Jesus’ death and resurrection on our behalf satisfied God’s requirement – complete provision for our sin. This Jesus, and he alone, is qualified to be the remedy for my sin and yours.

Our response – to repent and believe.

Personal repentance is vital in the transformation process. Repentance literally means “a change of mind.” It is to say to the Father, “I want to turn toward you and away from the life I’ve lived independently from you. I am sorry for who I’ve been and what I have done and I want to permanently change. I receive your forgiveness for my sins.”

Many at this point experience a remarkable “washing” from a lifetime’s accumulation of all that can degrade a person’s soul and spirit. Whether or not we sense God’s forgiveness, if we repent, we can be very certain that we’re forgiven. Our confidence is based on God’s promise to us, not how we feel.

We come into a personal relationship with the Lord when we make life’s greatest decision – the turning point referred to earlier. It is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the One who died for our sins, who was buried and was raised from the dead – and to receive him as our Savior and Lord. When we believe in this way, we become God’s children. This is emphatically promised in John’s gospel: “To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:12).

Would you like to receive Jesus Christ as your savior? If you would, you can pray a prayer like this:

“Jesus, I need you. I repent for the life I’ve lived apart from you. Thank you for dying on the cross to take the penalty for my sins. I believe you are God’s Son and I now receive you as my Savior and Lord. I commit my life to follow you.”

Pray this prayer....

Oh and Jason the swallowing part was a joke oh contraceptives via butchs post, do try and keep up eh! HA! Another joke DUDE!

[MsTerry]

Thank you for dying on the cross to take the penalty for my sins

Jesus already knew 2000 years ago what kind of sins everybody was going to commit?
He sounds irresponsible, taking the easy way out by basically committing suicide and then slipping away to heaven.
If he knew what was coming, he should've prevented all this suffering!

[pjpete]

Mystery, please dont distort what I posted, what I posted is the following:

The Way Home

Here are the key elements by which we become reconciled to the Father. Each is vitally important. Any, if absent, could keep our new relationship from being complete.

Our condition: First, we must understand that we are separated from God. The chasm dividing us is both wide and deep. We inherited a fatal defect at birth. As a result, we have lived our lives independently from him. The Bible emphasizes this stark reality: “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). If we can’t come to grips with the fact that sin separates us from God, we’ll never come home spiritually, for there is no need for a savior.

God’s remedy: Second, we need to be very clear in understanding who Jesus is and what he has done for us, in order that we might confidently place our faith in him. He bridged the chasm separating us from God. In the apostle John’s words: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).

Jesus was not just a good man, a great teacher, an inspired prophet. He came to earth as the Son of God. He was born to a virgin. He led a sinless life. He died. He was buried. He rose again on the third day. He ascended into heaven where he became both Lord and Christ.

Jesus’ death and resurrection on our behalf satisfied God’s requirement – complete provision for our sin. This Jesus, and he alone, is qualified to be the remedy for my sin and yours.

Our response – to repent and believe.

Personal repentance is vital in the transformation process. Repentance literally means “a change of mind.” It is to say to the Father, “I want to turn toward you and away from the life I’ve lived independently from you. I am sorry for who I’ve been and what I have done and I want to permanently change. I receive your forgiveness for my sins.”

Many at this point experience a remarkable “washing” from a lifetime’s accumulation of all that can degrade a person’s soul and spirit. Whether or not we sense God’s forgiveness, if we repent, we can be very certain that we’re forgiven. Our confidence is based on God’s promise to us, not how we feel.

We come into a personal relationship with the Lord when we make life’s greatest decision – the turning point referred to earlier. It is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God, the One who died for our sins, who was buried and was raised from the dead – and to receive him as our Savior and Lord. When we believe in this way, we become God’s children. This is emphatically promised in John’s gospel: “To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God” (John 1:12).

Would you like to receive Jesus Christ as your savior? If you would, you can pray a prayer like this:

“Jesus, I need you. I repent for the life I’ve lived apart from you. Thank you for dying on the cross to take the penalty for my sins. I believe you are God’s Son and I now receive you as my Savior and Lord. I commit my life to follow you.”

Pray this prayer....

[MsTerry]

Pete, are you so busy praying for your sins that you can't answer an honest question ?
My quote was directly from your prayer.

Mystery, please dont distort what I posted,

[nurturetruth]

With all due respect for the beautiful diversity of Wacco community, I wish to state that I mean this only in the most light hearted way and to try to redirect the topic back to the original purpose of the thread. Forgive me ahead of time here, I cannot resist ....

Would u like to receive sex just for the sake of sex? If you would, u can pray a prayer like this:

"Jesus, I need you. I also need sex for the sake of sex.
I know u to be a loving, compassionate savior and guide. I know u to be God's son and I now receive you as my Savior and Lord. I know u will not judge me .
I am confiding in u my troubles. I have never had the experience of having sex just for the sake of sex and would really like to know what it feels like ...both to have you cume into my heart/soul and to be able to receive a valuable learning experience of having sex for the sake of sex. "
--------------------

"I like your Christ, I don't like ur Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." ~ Gandhi

Very rare is it that I encounter a Christian that exhibits Christ like behavior ...

However, I have often observed Christians who get caught up acting as if they are the Judge and pass judgments on others for "where they are at" on the path.

I once encountered a Christian woman who told me I had sinned and needed to repent for my sins b/c I chose to have sex before marriage.
The only person I felt judging me was her. She was using her beliefs and what worked for "her" and projecting it onto me. What works for one, might not work for another.

"Beyond right and wrong, there is a field. I will meet you there" ~ Rumi


To: dw41552

I personally love getting into and eating the icing/frosting on the cake .
I fondly recall even licking the bowl and the spoon before I ever ate the cake.

By the way... what constitutes as actual sex or making love? There is alot of 'licking' the bowl that can occur without necessarily having the cake!!!!

in my experience/perspective, love is just too big of a concept to only make love to just one person. There are also many ways one could make love to another .......

[dw41552]

With all due respect for the beautiful diversity of Wacco community, I wish to state that I mean this only in the most light hearted way and to try to redirect the topic back to the original purpose of the thread. Forgive me ahead of time here, I cannot resist ....

Would u like to receive sex just for the sake of sex? If you would, u can pray a prayer like this:

"Jesus, I need you. I also need sex for the sake of sex.
I know u to be a loving, compassionate savior and guide. I know u to be God's son and I now receive you as my Savior and Lord. I know u will not judge me .

No mam! That is not true. Everyone will have to stand before Jesus and be judged someday.

Romans 14:10
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.

Galatians 5:16
[ Walking in the Spirit ] I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:21
lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,

Ephesians 5:3
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;

Colossians 3:5
Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. idolatry.

I think it's very clear by His Word He does not approve of sex outside of marriage. And no the Words of the bible are not the Words of men, they are the Word of God put on paper using man's hand.


I am confiding in u my troubles. I have never had the experience of having sex just for the sake of sex and would really like to know what it feels like ...both to have you cume into my heart/soul and to be able to receive a valuable learning experience of having sex for the sake of sex. "
--------------------

"I like your Christ, I don't like ur Christians. They are so unlike your Christ." ~ Gandhi

Very rare is it that I encounter a Christian that exhibits Christ like behavior ...

Which is exactly why we need Jesus. The more we open our hearts to Him, the more like Him we will become. He is the brass ring we should all be reaching for.

However, I have often observed Christians who get caught up acting as if they are the Judge and pass judgments on others for "where they are at" on the path.

I once encountered a Christian woman who told me I had sinned and needed to repent for my sins b/c I chose to have sex before marriage.
The only person I felt judging me was her. She was using her beliefs and what worked for "her" and projecting it onto me. What works for one, might not work for another.

"Beyond right and wrong, there is a field. I will meet you there" ~ Rumi


To: dw41552

I personally love getting into and eating the icing/frosting on the cake .
I fondly recall even licking the bowl and the spoon before I ever ate the cake.

By the way... what constitutes as actual sex? There is alot of 'licking' the bowl that can occur without necessarily having the cake!!!!

God Bless

[MsTerry]

And no the Words of the bible are not the Words of men, they are the Word of God put on paper using man's hand.

Now, I've heard that your good God was able to set some things in stone. Why would he use man's hand to write down the details?

[mykil]

If Jesus wants to come down here and judge me he had better know I am going to judge him right back!!!

[NudeTea]

Galatians, Ephesians, Romans .... Lord I am glad I don't live in those countries.
Let me know when Paul writes a letter to the Californians, or even the Irish.

Religion. Marriage. "The cake." We live in a state where it's contested if gays can marry in church. When I was a kid, gays weren't even LET into church till they'd repented. So what sense does it make allow the State of California to issue marriage licenses when "the separation between Church and State" should keep the State out of church as much as the church keeps out gays?

I don't presume to know a lot about sex. Sex for sex sake sounds great for anyone interested. As for me and sex for sex sake, I come in handy.

I don't presume to know a lot about religion, especially when each church establishes its own set of absolutes. BUT I know that if it's true that Christ died to forgive my sins so I don't have to go to hell, and that if I pray the sinners prayer Christ forgives me, and that if upon dieing I was suddenly at the judgment seat of Christ, and upon being discovered to have eaten the cake for the sake of eating the cake that I went to hell anyway, that Christ and the Bible would have been a big lie, and there would be no hell to have gone to because their is no such thing as forgiveness, at which point Christ would not be the forgiving person he is, and therefore probably would not actually exist, and therefore that's why I don't study religion anymore.

If the Bible is real, then Christ is real, my sin is real, and his forgiveness of me is real, at which point I am no more or less a sinner than the preacher man.

At which point I salute Nurture Truth and her statement of admission to Christ that I need sex for sex sake.

[dw41552]

Now, I've heard that your good God was able to set some things in stone. Why would he use man's hand to write down the details?

That would be one heavy bible if He used stone. Why did he come to earth as a man to show us a better way? Why does he use man to spread His message? He could certainly appear to every one of us and say believe in me and my son or else! But then our choice would not be as meaningful as choosing by faith. He will never force Himself on you, which He could easily do. He wants the choice to be all yours.

God bless

[dw41552]

Galatians, Ephesians, Romans .... Lord I am glad I don't live in those countries.
Let me know when Paul writes a letter to the Californians, or even the Irish.

It doesn't matter who Paul is writing to. All of what the bible says is meant for all of us.

Religion. Marriage. "The cake." We live in a state where it's contested if gays can marry in church. When I was a kid, gays weren't even LET into church till they'd repented. So what sense does it make allow the State of California to issue marriage licenses when "the separation between Church and State" should keep the State out of church as much as the church keeps out gays?

I don't presume to know a lot about sex. Sex for sex sake sounds great for anyone interested. As for me and sex for sex sake, I come in handy.

I don't presume to know a lot about religion, especially when each church establishes its own set of absolutes. BUT I know that if it's true that Christ died to forgive my sins so I don't have to go to hell, and that if I pray the sinners prayer Christ forgives me, and that if upon dieing I was suddenly at the judgment seat of Christ, and upon being discovered to have eaten the cake for the sake of eating the cake that I went to hell anyway, that Christ and the Bible would have been a big lie, and there would be no hell to have gone to because their is no such thing as forgiveness, at which point Christ would not be the forgiving person he is, and therefore probably would not actually exist, and therefore that's why I don't study religion anymore.

If the Bible is real, then Christ is real, my sin is real, and his forgiveness of me is real, at which point I am no more or less a sinner than the preacher man.

At which point I salute Nurture Truth and her statement of admission to Christ that I need sex for sex sake.

I prayed the sinners prayer back in 1984. Six months later I'm leaving my wife and three kids for another woman. Why would I do that? Because I was a jack ass!!! Sorry Lord! I lived so far outside of God's will I had a hard heart. And even though I prayed the sinners prayer I was not willing to submit to Jesus 100%. I wasn't willing give up a lot of the things I was doing outside Of His will. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of the things I did and went through before I was finally willing to humble myself and surrender to His will 100% so He could use me any way He wishes. That was the greatest day of my life. It's a great feeling knowing why I'm here, what my purpose is, and where I'm going.

God bless

[Zeno Swijtink]

I'd love to give a response from a Christian view point.

I think you read your own sexual mores back into the text of the New Testament.

As Bruce Malina shows in his article "Does Porneia Mean Fornication?" (Novum Testamentum, Vol. 14, Fasc. 1, Jan., 1977 pp. 10-17) the expression "porneia," that you render as "fornification," does refer to commercial or cultic intercourse with a prostitute, esp. as part of a non-Christian, cultic experience (see excerpt below).

The text of the NT does not reject freely chosen sexual intercourse between a non-married man and woman. Later Christians have started to translate and interpret the text in this way. But Scripture is not on your side!

[MsTerry]

Butch, are you familiar with codependency?
Where one person will cover for the blindly beloved other person and explain how great this person is, and how this person doesn't do anything bad. No it is somebody else doing to him to make him look bad.
Does this sound familiar?

That would be one heavy bible if He used stone. Why did he come to earth as a man to show us a better way? Why does he use man to spread His message? He could certainly appear to every one of us and say believe in me and my son or else! But then our choice would not be as meaningful as choosing by faith. He will never force Himself on you, which He could easily do. He wants the choice to be all yours.

God bless

[dw41552]

I think you read your own sexual mores back into the text of the New Testament.

As Bruce Malina shows in his article "Does Porneia Mean Fornication?" (Novum Testamentum, Vol. 14, Fasc. 1, Jan., 1977 pp. 10-17) the expression "porneia," that you render as "fornification," does refer to commercial or cultic intercourse with a prostitute, esp. as part of a non-Christian, cultic experience (see excerpt below).

The text of the NT does not reject freely chosen sexual intercourse between a non-married man and woman. Later Christians have started to translate and interpret the text in this way. But Scripture is not on your side!

The New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 4202 porneiða Original Word Word Origin porneiða from (4203) Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling Porneia por-ni'-ah Parts of Speech TDNT Noun Feminine 6:579,918 Definition illicit sexual intercourse adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18 sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11, metaph. the worship of idols of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols Translated Words KJV (26) - fornication, 26; NAS (25) - fornication, 4; fornications, 2; immoralities, 1; immorality, 16; sexual immorality, 1; unchastity, 1; for·ni·ca·tion Pronunciation: \ˌfȯr-nə-ˈkā-shən\ Function: noun : consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other 1 Corinthians 7:8-10 8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. God bless

[dw41552]

Butch, are you familiar with codependency?
Where one person will cover for the blindly beloved other person and explain how great this person is, and how this person doesn't do anything bad. No it is somebody else doing to him to make him look bad.
Does this sound familiar?

I am very familiar with codependency. I was raised by an abusive alcoholic father, but what does this have to do with what I've shared? Are you saying I'm codependent because I believe in Jesus and His perfection and I rely on Him. If that's the case, I say you bet!!!!

[MsTerry]

Have you noticed how Jesus never does anything wrong?
It's either the Devil (the bad God) or your sins that do all the naughty stuff.
And when Jesus is going to blow up the world, (Armageddon) it's our fault.
I know you get something out of this relationship, but can you see how abusive it is?
Was your alcoholic father always blaming you for everything that went wrong too?
Or did he blame your mother?

I am very familiar with codependency. I was raised by an abusive alcoholic father, but what does this have to do with what I've shared? Are you saying I'm codependent because I believe in Jesus and His perfection and I rely on Him. If that's the case, I say you bet!!!!

[dw41552]

Have you noticed how Jesus never does anything wrong?
It's either the Devil (the bad God) or your sins that do all the naughty stuff.
And when Jesus is going to blow up the world, (Armageddon) it's our fault.
I know you get something out of this relationship, but can you see how abusive it is?
Was your alcoholic father always blaming you for everything that went wrong too?
Or did he blame your mother?

You bet! Jesus is the only perfect sinless man to ever walk on this planet.

MsTerry are you blind? Look around you. Who is destroying this world? Who is responsible for all the crime? who is responsible for all the violence? who is responsible for corruption? Who is responsible for the millions of babies starving to death all over the world. WE ARE, by the choices we make. God has been trying to get it through our stupid thick skulls that His way is the way to go for over 5000 years now, yet we still don't listen. 2000 years ago He came to die for our sins and give us another chance to come to his way of thinking. Still we don't listen. Soon the rapture will come and he'll give those left behind another 7 years to make the right choice, and if we don't choose Him by then our time is up, and we certainly won't like the results. God has been extremely patient for over 5000 years, yet we spit in His face and we spit on each other.

My relationship with Jesus Christ is the most loving relationship I've ever had. I believe in Him, and through Him God sheds His grace on me and those that listen.

You on the other hand have different gods. You worship the things of this world, you worship your self, and most of all you live in your own little world of cynisism. You have no hope even though it's within easy reach. Do you know why you are hear MsTerry? Do you know what your purpose is? Do you know where you're going. Life without hope is like being dead on the inside waiting for the outside to catch up. You hear but you don't listen. You mock God, and how good is your life for it?

My father didn't blame me or my mom for anything. He just didn't know how to love. He drank to escape the pain of his lousy abusive childhood, which caused him to become that which he despised the most. But he didn't have to be that way. It was his choice.

God bless

[MsTerry]

You bet! Jesus is the only perfect sinless man to ever walk on this planet.

I assume this means that you have been able to meet and judge every single person that was ever born.

MsTerry are you blind?

NO

Look around you. Who is destroying this world? Who is responsible for all the crime? who is responsible for all the violence? who is responsible for corruption? Who is responsible for the millions of babies starving to death all over the world. WE ARE, by the choices we make.

It is good to take responsibility for one's own action and not tryto blame it on some outside source.

Soon the rapture will come and he'll give those left behind another 7 years to make the right choice, and if we don't choose Him by then our time is up, and we certainly won't like the results.

Does that mean I can sin for a while longer, and only have to repent at the end?

God has been extremely patient for over 5000 years, yet we spit in His face and we spit on each other.

Are you using 5000 years arbitrarily or is that when the world began?

My relationship with Jesus Christ is the most loving relationship I've ever had. I believe in Him, and through Him God sheds His grace on me and those that listen

I understand that that is true for you.

You on the other hand have different gods. You worship the things of this world, you worship your self, and most of all you live in your own little world of cynisism.

This is quite judgmental since you don't know me.

You have no hope even though it's within easy reach.

Hope for what?

Do you know why you are hear MsTerry?

Yes

Do you know what your purpose is?

Yes, To be good and do good to others and show them the light by reflecting back what they are saying.

Do you know where you're going.

I always do!
I assume this refers to the afterlife, and in that case, I know as much as you. You might believe you know where you are going, but even that thought contradicts your faith. You told us God will decide where you are going, therefore either way, YOU don't know where you are going

Life without hope is like being dead on the inside waiting for the outside to catch up.

Hope for what?

You hear but you don't listen. You mock God, and how good is your life for it?

How do I mock God?
Frankly I think it is you who is mocking God.
If you a father would tell your children " if you don't do what I say, I'll kill you and make you suffer for eternity"
Would you consider that person to be a good father?
Would you allow your children to play there?
Would you devote your life and follow such a person?

My father didn't blame me or my mom for anything. He just didn't know how to love. He drank to escape the pain of his lousy abusive childhood, which caused him to become that which he despised the most. But he didn't have to be that way. It was his choice.

If your father was trying to drown his childhood, he was also trying to escape his manhood.
You said your father was an abusive alcoholic.
What part was abusive?

[pjpete]

Give it up Terry, if people want to have sex it's their business. If people want Jesus in their lives, it's their business. If people want you as their savior, then we should all pray for them. Religion is a personal approach to one's own salvation. Read "The Third Jesus" by Choopra, you might get a better understanding of Jesus.

[dw41552]

I assume this means that you have been able to meet and judge every single person that was ever born.

I don't know about you but I have never ever heard of anyone else, or know anyone who's heard of anyone else being perfect and who never commited a sin except Jesus.

NOIt is good to take responsibility for one's own action and not tryto blame it on some outside source.

Does that mean I can sin for a while longer, and only have to repent at the end?

It's possible if you know the time of your death, and your repentance was sincere.
Are you using 5000 years arbitrarily or is that when the world began?

Click here: How old is the world?

I understand that that is true for you.

The same can be true for anyone regardless of past. The invitation is exrended to all. But one has to be willing to give up the old self, to become new person in Christ.

This is quite judgmental since you don't know me.

Most of the posts you've written to me have been negative. You gone to great lengths to try and trip me up to make yourself look good. You find fault with just about everything I post. You live for the things of this world. You would die before you would admit I may be right. Your posts say a lot about you.

Hope for what?

An eternity with God and eternal bliss.

Yes

You mind sharing what that purpose is?

Yes, To be good and do good to others and show them the light by reflecting back what they are saying.

The last part doesn't make sense.


I always do!
I assume this refers to the afterlife, and in that case, I know as much as you. You might believe you know where you are going, but even that thought contradicts your faith. You told us God will decide where you are going, therefore either way, YOU don't know where you are going

No, I do know where I'm going, because of my faith, just like I know that my God is real through faith. Yes we will all stand before God some day and He will decide where we will go, but because of my faith I know where that is.


Hope for what?

Hope for what comes at the end of our time in this world.

How do I mock God?

You make jokes about Him and Jesus. because you do not agree with their ways. You want everything your way. You want God to fit your agenda instead of the other way around.

Frankly I think it is you who is mocking God.

See this is how you try and take the focus off of yourself and put it on me.

If you a father would tell your children " if you don't do what I say, I'll kill you and make you suffer for eternity"
Would you consider that person to be a good father?
Would you allow your children to play there?
Would you devote your life and follow such a person?

God created us and kills no one, we are all immortal with the freedom to choose how we want to spend eternity either by living His way, which cannot be denied is a much better way, or we can turn our backs on Him and His way. Where ever one ends up is by their own choice and was not forced on them by God or anyone. So if someone ends up in hell, who's to blame?

If your father was trying to drown his childhood, he was also trying to escape his manhood.
You said your father was an abusive alcoholic.
What part was abusive?

How about all of it

God bless

[MsTerry]

No, I do know where I'm going, because of my faith, just like I know that my God is real through faith. Yes we will all stand before God some day and He will decide where we will go, but because of my faith I know where that is.

And where is it you are going Butch? How do you know what God has in store for you?

I don't know about you but I have never ever heard of anyone else, or know anyone who's heard of anyone else being perfect and who never commited a sin except Jesus

If you have read the bible, you must know about the missing years.
Conveniently they also happen to be the years where most kids, teens or young adults happen to get in trouble.
How do you know what Jesus did in those years?
Have you heard of Ghandi?

Click here: How old is the world?

Oh Boy, Butch, I guess you also believe we all came from Adam and Eve?
(BTW that would mean you believe in incest too)

Most of the posts you've written to me have been negative. You gone to great lengths to try and trip me up to make yourself look good. You find fault with just about everything I post.

That is strange that you perceive someone who asks Q's about your faith to be negative.
I've found your line of thinking to be a contradiction in terms, are you troubled by that?

You live for the things of this world.

LOL since I am typing this while staying at a monastery.

You would die before you would admit I may be right. Your posts say a lot about you.

I think this is something that is about yourself?
Have you ever admitted that there are things you are only allowed to see from a faith POV, not from logic or reality and that you might be wrong?

You make jokes about Him and Jesus. because you do not agree with their ways.

What are you referring to?

If you a father would tell your children " if you don't do what I say, I'll kill you and make you suffer for eternity"
Would you consider that person to be a good father?
Would you allow your children to play there?
Would you devote your life and follow such a person?

You are side stepping this question.

If your father was trying to drown his childhood, he was also trying to escape his manhood.
You said your father was an abusive alcoholic.
What part was abusive?

How about all of it

You're switching horses. If he was that abusive, then he was blaming someone else to justify his behavior. It is that simple.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Shouts & Murmurs: Amen, Brother: Humor: The New Yorker
by Paul Rudnick
APRIL 27, 2009

KEYWORDS
Ted Haggard; Pastors; Christians; Evangelicals; Gays (Homosexuals); Religion; Therapy

What my therapist says is that I am a heterosexual with issues.
—Ted Haggard.

Thank you, Ted, and God bless you, Ted’s therapist. My name is Stan Belker, and I’m the pastor here at Our Lady of the Irredeemable Sinner, in Nashville, and, just like Ted, I, too, have struggled with my sexuality and have come out the other side, into the good green pastures of Christian family life.

As a teen-ager, I found that I was attracted both to serving Our Lord and to Jimmy Wiggins, the assistant coach of my high-school soccer team. I was in torment, and I would pray for hours on end, asking God why He would command me to love Him so deeply and at the same time just go and create Jimmy’s snug little soccer shorts. I told my clergyman, Father Josiah, about my conflicting urges, and he tried to reconcile them by explaining that from certain angles Jesus looks just like Dennis Quaid. Still, I had agonizing doubts: was I just experiencing a completely normal phase of adolescent uncertainty, or were Jimmy Wiggins’s firm, high buttocks really a calling card from Satan?

I became determined to change, to lead a wholly Christian life. In college, I began to date. At first, I took things slow, and I went out with only the most pious, virginal girls, who luckily often had strong, masculine jawlines. I became pre-engaged to Mary Ann Collier, and we’d sit in her sorority’s front parlor reading Scripture together. “I think that St. Francis and St. Michael are my favorite holy men,” Mary Ann said one evening. “You’re right about Francis,” I said. “He’s to die for, but Michael should work on his calf muscles.” “Stan,” Mary Ann asked me, “is there something you’d like to tell me?” “Yes, there is,” I replied gratefully. “I’d just like you to know that, if it weren’t for the teachings of Our Lord, I would very much enjoy having sexual intercourse with you. But, because of our shared beliefs, I’ll just have to make do with my lonely dorm room and this issue of Men’s Fitness, the one with all those great ab routines.”

I was in college when I had my first sexual encounter with a man—Brad Bicknell, a student in my Christian Values seminar. One day, as we stood side by side at the urinals discussing the importance of abstinence, Brad asked me out to dinner. “But just as friends and Christian study buddies,” he assured me. “I have absolutely no intention of allowing our eyes to lock over the bread basket, because that would only lead to the surprisingly roomy back seat of my Toyota Celica, where we’d be forced to grapple with each other’s moist, engorged man areas.”

I’ll be honest; I was curious. I needed to know exactly what sexual activity with another fellow might entail, so I could be ashamed of it. I warned Brad that, while I would be willing to sleep with him as a very small part of my journey to Christian wholeness, I didn’t intend to enjoy the experience. In fact, while we were going at it, I said, “Brad, while what you’re doing feels unbelievably good and just might cause my entire body to explode, it’s nothing compared with what I hope to one day experience with my future wife, if she’s double-jointed.”

But I knew that what Brad and I were doing was wrong, especially after the fifty-eighth time. That was when I told Brad, quite firmly, “Brad, our being together is sinful and will only impede our development as responsible Christian adults. And your mustache tickles.” The very next day, I met Stacy Crothers, the beautiful, adoring, steadfast woman who would become my wife. When I first met Stacy, in the cafeteria, I was smitten with her shy smile, her sparkling conversation, and the family photographs that she proudly took from her wallet, which included several snapshots of her sturdy quarterback brother, Frank, at the beach in a Speedo. “I have a very good feeling about us,” I told Stacy on that very first day.

After a blissfully romantic courtship lasting only twelve years, Stacy and I were married. We had decided to save ourselves for our wedding night, because, as I reminded Stacy over and over, “The first time I make love to a woman, I want it to be sacred and special, and not just mindless, unending pleasure, like sex with a guy.” And I have to say that, in the bedroom, Stacy and I got along like a house afire, especially if that house was willing to respond to the nickname Skipper.

But I’m not perfect. Like any human being, I had the occasional odd desire, the stray thought, the random yearning to, for example, seduce a seventeen-year-old lad after choir practice. Thanks to my years of work with a gifted therapist, I now fully realize that my actions were inappropriate, even though they were listed in boldface on the daily church calendar, as “Nude Prayer,” “Nude Prayer in the Basement,” and “Nude Prayer with Mutual Body Scrub.”

So, yes, I was flawed, but my commitment to my parishioners, my wife, and my family remained my primary focus, until finally I was caught on tape, attempting to buy crystal meth, sexual services, and a plus-size tube top from a male prostitute. Of course, at the time, in my innocence, I didn’t realize that Jack was a drug dealer and a prostitute; I assumed that his offer of drugs and orgies was just an expression of low self-esteem, and his way of telling me, “After we do the crystal and have sex with all these guys, I’d really like to talk about the story of Ruth.” I felt that I was counselling Jack, sometimes for days at a time, in our cheap motel room, where I would always place a full-color photo portrait of my family atop the minibar.

When the truth finally came out, on every news show in the country, at first I was devastated, and I imagined that I would lose everything, including my church, my family, and my ten-per-cent Clergyman’s Discount with Jack. But you know what? When I was being reviled on every front page, when I was hiding from the media in my den, clutching a bottle of bourbon, when I was trying to explain to Stacy that a male prostitute is just like Mary Magdalene in “Jesus Christ Superstar,” that was when I truly felt the presence of my Saviour. That was when I heard the Lord say unto me, “Stan, now you can begin to truly know thyself, and therefore to know God. Stan, now your spiritual journey can really begin. Stan, put down that bottle and that copy of People’s Sexiest Man Alive issue with Hugh Jackman on the cover, because he’s never going to write back.”

And since that day I have lived in the light. My wife and I have spent months in counselling, screaming and sobbing and finally coming back together, over our shared love for Christian living and early Jean-Claude Van Damme films. And I have told my children and my church that Stan Belker isn’t perfect, and he’s never going to be perfect. That Stan Belker is going to try with all his might to lead a clean Christian life, even if every now and then he still has a yen to offer Keanu Reeves a papal blessing in exchange for his underpants.

But those thoughts, those blips, they’re not who I am. Just like Ted Haggard, I can take responsibility for my actions. Because when I saw Ted on “Oprah,” spilling his guts, promoting his HBO special, and staying a good few feet away from his wife on the couch, I thought, Ted, if you can make it, I can make it. Together we can move forward, into the clean bright light of the Christian dawn. Together we can make only the most righteous choices. Together we will become decent Christian adults. Call me?

[dw41552]

And where is it you are going Butch? How do you know what God has in store for you?

Heaven. Because He said so.

If you have read the bible, you must know about the missing years.
Conveniently they also happen to be the years where most kids, teens or young adults happen to get in trouble.
How do you know what Jesus did in those years?
Have you heard of Ghandi?

Don't have to read the bible to figure this one out. God is perfect, and God came to earth as a the man Jesus. God is perfect, so Jesus has to be perfect.

Oh Boy, Butch, I guess you also believe we all came from Adam and Eve?
(BTW that would mean you believe in incest too)

You bet. Adam and Eve were the first, and only human beings. Their children had no choice but to intermarry, as a result of this, incest was not a sin back then.

Also, Adam and Eve had a pure genetic code. Consequently, it was safe for their children to intermarry. God did not forbid intermarriage until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18), when there was enough people that intermarriage was not necessary.

That is strange that you perceive someone who asks Q's about your faith to be negative.

You and I both know you don't believe a word I write, and your agenda is to try and trip me up which like I said would make you feel good about yourself, which is why after this I will no longer waste my time with you.

I've found your line of thinking to be a contradiction in terms, are you troubled by that?

Not at all. You've said similar a couple of times already, but you have not shown me one contradiction in anything I've posted yet. The only thing you've shown me is what you percieve to be a contradiction, but have proven nothing.

LOL since I am typing this while staying at a monastery.

You either live for God, or you live for the world. There is no in between.

I think this is something that is about yourself?
Have you ever admitted that there are things you are only allowed to see from a faith POV, not from logic or reality and that you might be wrong?

I see what I see because of my faith, and logic. History tells us Jesus is a real person, a great teacher and performed many miracles. There's no question He walked in our midst 2000 years ago. So knowing that, logic tells me He has to be who He says He is or He could not have performed the many miracles He did.

What are you referring to?
You are side stepping this question.

Jesus already knew 2000 years ago what kind of sins everybody was going to commit? He sounds irresponsible, taking the easy way out by basically committing suicide and then slipping away to heaven.
If he knew what was coming, he should've prevented all this suffering!

Sounds like mocking to me.

You're switching horses. If he was that abusive, then he was blaming someone else to justify his behavior. It is that simple.

What, are you a shrink now? Did you know my father? No, you didn't so you don't have a clue about him.

God Bless

[MsTerry]

You bet. Adam and Eve were the first, and only human beings. Their children had no choice but to intermarry, as a result of this, incest was not a sin back then.

Also, Adam and Eve had a pure genetic code. Consequently, it was safe for their children to intermarry. God did not forbid intermarriage until the time of Moses (Leviticus 18), when there was enough people that intermarriage was not necessary.

Butch, you must have written your last post in anger, you even left out God Bless.
I have not mocked you, even though you might feel this way, I only questioned the foundation of your beliefs.
I can tell that it's hard for you to swallow that there are people who have a different interpretation of the bible.
Let me remind you that the New Testament was not written by Jesus' apostles, but in fact a few hundred years later and was the result of an oral transmission (and subsequent alteration)
Most people don't take the bible literally since this leads to extremism and misinterpretation. (see your sample above)
We're all struggling to become a better person, on a daily basis.
I'm glad to hear that you are convinced that you will end up in heaven, whatever that may be and wherever that may be.
Take care.