Prop. 8 is bigotry

[Franklin Johnson]

Prop 8 is a clearly discriminatory and grossly bigoted initiative without a single rational argument to justify it. We have born witness to the role of religion, churches, and the bible being the financial and ideological backers of this repulsive expression of intolerance.

Also considering that not all Republicans voted in favor of Prop 8 and that 70% of African-Americans DID vote in favor of it drives us to the inevitable and logical conclusion:

Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

If you look up the various passages in the bible, a book full of hatred towards women and homosexuality, you will read where it clearly states that a man who lays with another man will surely go to hell. Those may not be the words exactly, depending on which version of the bible you look at but that is definiteyl the message paraphrased.

What to do with religion? People have a constitutional right to advocate and express bigotry but not to impose it on others through statute, as Prop 8 will do if the courts don't throw it out (and I certainly hope that they do).

Even though Prop 8 only passed 52% to 48%, support for it crossed racial, social class, and political affiliations, among other demographics. The strongest common denominator was religious identification. What's this about?

Any observations?

Franklin

[Photoguy]

When the crusaders first entered Jerusalem to liberate it for Christianity they slaughtered everyone. First hand accounts tell of rivers of blood knee high. At that time Jerusalem had quite a few Arab Christians living there, they just did not look like the crusaders. Manifest Destiny here in this country was an excuse to kill any "heathen savages" who stood in the way of white Christians crossing the plains. Every day the news has stories of Muslims killing other Muslims because they are from a different sect. In India Hindus often kill other Hindus of different sects because of their differences. The list of religious people murdering other religious and non-religious people who are slightly different from themselves is long and spans the entire length of history. Religion isn't bigotry, it's murder!

[patzy]

Prop 8 is a clearly discriminatory and grossly bigoted initiative without a single rational argument to justify it. We have born witness to the role of religion, churches, and the bible being the financial and ideological backers of this repulsive expression of intolerance.

Also considering that not all Republicans voted in favor of Prop 8 and that 70% of African-Americans DID vote in favor of it drives us to the inevitable and logical conclusion:

Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

If you look up the various passages in the bible, a book full of hatred towards women and homosexuality, you will read where it clearly states that a man who lays with another man will surely go to hell. Those may not be the words exactly, depending on which version of the bible you look at but that is definiteyl the message paraphrased.

What to do with religion? People have a constitutional right to advocate and express bigotry but not to impose it on others through statute, as Prop 8 will do if the courts don't throw it out (and I certainly hope that they do).

Even though Prop 8 only passed 52% to 48%, support for it crossed racial, social class, and political affiliations, among other demographics. The strongest common denominator was religious identification. What's this about?

Any observations?

Franklin

https://www.couragecampaign.org/page...SpecialComment

[Franklin Johnson]

Thank you! Truly outstanding statements. Right on the mark.

Franklin

https://www.couragecampaign.org/page...SpecialComment

[Dixon]

Let's not paint all religions, or all religionists, with the same brush. Even within the patriarchal religions, there are quite a few individuals and even some entire sects who are more enlightened on homosexuality and other social issues.

Having said that, I recognize the correlation between religiosity, especially the more conservative varieties, and various manifestations of bigotry and oppression. Particularly problematical is the sad fact that it's often impossible to reason religionists out of their bigotry because they take things on "faith" (i.e., believing whatever meets your needs regardless of evidence or logic), which exempts them from reasonable critique. The result is rigid closed-mindedness, seen as a virtue!

Every time this issue comes up, I thank heathen that I left religion behind nearly 40 years ago. As a former Mormon AND fundamentalist, I can testify to the fact that I was inculcated with homophobia, misogyny, nationalism, racism, imperialism and anti-intellectualism in both churches. Religion in general has a lot to answer for. Unfortunately, it will not have to answer for its sins any time soon.

Yours in Christ--not!

Dixon

Prop 8 is a clearly discriminatory and grossly bigoted initiative without a single rational argument to justify it. We have born witness to the role of religion, churches, and the bible being the financial and ideological backers of this repulsive expression of intolerance.

Also considering that not all Republicans voted in favor of Prop 8 and that 70% of African-Americans DID vote in favor of it drives us to the inevitable and logical conclusion:

Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

If you look up the various passages in the bible, a book full of hatred towards women and homosexuality, you will read where it clearly states that a man who lays with another man will surely go to hell. Those may not be the words exactly, depending on which version of the bible you look at but that is definiteyl the message paraphrased.

What to do with religion? People have a constitutional right to advocate and express bigotry but not to impose it on others through statute, as Prop 8 will do if the courts don't throw it out (and I certainly hope that they do).

Even though Prop 8 only passed 52% to 48%, support for it crossed racial, social class, and political affiliations, among other demographics. The strongest common denominator was religious identification. What's this about?

Any observations?

Franklin

[Sylph]

I do want to point out that most Episcopalians are on the record as being tolerant of gay people; the Bishops were against Prop 8.
I think the Mormons were a big source of support for the proposition as well as the Hispanic Catholics.
On the other hand, some middle-aged, non-religious white guys I know were also pro 8, probably due to homophobia.

[Franklin Johnson]

I need to correct a piece of data in my original post. The African-American vote in favor of Prop 8 was only in the 56-60% range, not 70% as I had stated earlier.

My apologies,

Franklin

Prop 8 is a clearly discriminatory and grossly bigoted initiative without a single rational argument to justify it. We have born witness to the role of religion, churches, and the bible being the financial and ideological backers of this repulsive expression of intolerance.

Also considering that not all Republicans voted in favor of Prop 8 and that 70% of African-Americans DID vote in favor of it drives us to the inevitable and logical conclusion:

Religiosity is a source of bigotry, hatred, intolerance, and discrimination.

If you look up the various passages in the bible, a book full of hatred towards women and homosexuality, you will read where it clearly states that a man who lays with another man will surely go to hell. Those may not be the words exactly, depending on which version of the bible you look at but that is definiteyl the message paraphrased.

What to do with religion? People have a constitutional right to advocate and express bigotry but not to impose it on others through statute, as Prop 8 will do if the courts don't throw it out (and I certainly hope that they do).

Even though Prop 8 only passed 52% to 48%, support for it crossed racial, social class, and political affiliations, among other demographics. The strongest common denominator was religious identification. What's this about?

Any observations?

Franklin

[babaruss]

https://www.couragecampaign.org/page...SpecialComment

People tend to get lost when it comes to the Bible.
I try to remember that the information comprising it's total is but a fraction of ancient writings from those 'ancient' times.
What is a mish mosh of selected writings...not remotely in chronological order, nor in same time frame, is not something I choose to accept as a either God given or 'holy'.
There are romance stories, endless numbering who came from who, a whole slough of rules regarding behavior, diet, and the like.
I don't have any problem accepting that this was what people were being asked to believe at that time. hey every society trys to make order out of chaos. Maybe this was the best they could do at that time.
Why on earth people see fit to try and apply a semitic peoples cultural stumbling about (to establish some sort of order) to todays world amazes me no end.
I take every thing I read with a grain of salt.
Of course I had to douch my mind spirit and soul with an ocean of salt before I could cleanse myself of al those early childhood biblical teachings... foisted upon me by well meaning, but ignorant church people... before I could get to this my current level of understanding.
I'm no longer inclined to fritter my time away blaming the world's religions for anything.
Blame is such an easy game.... all human history considered.
Far better that I surrender finger pointed, and self righteous judging, to those better able to do so.
It is enough for me to remember that it is my choice (if not sacred duty) to live my life as I see fit.
Gibran said something akin to: 'dance but trip against no man's chains'.
It's taken me a long time to venture out on life's dance floor, but I'm starting to get the hang of it.
It's up to each of us to decide what dance we want for ourselves.
Mine no longer allows from the assigning of blame, nor for condemming the ignorant for being ignorant.
The fact is that in my own ignorance I have stepped on far too many toes to allow me to feel even a tiny bit superior to those whose ways differ from mine.
Russ

[Braggi]

... The fact is that in my own ignorance I have stepped on far too many toes to allow me to feel even a tiny bit superior to those whose ways differ from mine.
Russ

Russ, I appreciate your post and your point of view. However, I see no reason to avoid a feeling of superiority when your ways are clearly superior to someone else's.

Face it: not all religions are created equal. It's OK to judge. Why are we so careful to avoid being or appearing judgemental? If we don't judge we make bad decisions.

Judgement has gotten a bad rap. Feeling superior has gotten a bad rap. Belligerence we need to avoid. Close mindedness we need to avoid. Violence we need to avoid. But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

does this mean you are for prop 8?

But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Braggi wrote:
But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

does this mean you are for prop 8?

You know me better than that, MsTerry. I think Prop. 8 was an expression of bigotry and intolerance and that is an inferior position to my own.

-Jeff

[babaruss]

Russ, I appreciate your post and your point of view. However, I see no reason to avoid a feeling of superiority when your ways are clearly superior to someone else's.

Face it: not all religions are created equal. It's OK to judge. Why are we so careful to avoid being or appearing judgemental? If we don't judge we make bad decisions.

Judgement has gotten a bad rap. Feeling superior has gotten a bad rap. Belligerence we need to avoid. Close mindedness we need to avoid. Violence we need to avoid. But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

I see reasons for not feeling 'superior' to other evolving beings (and their points of view). A bit of humility is always useful....remembering that all beings evolve at different paces.

Life is for learning (imho) and time and experience are what makes learning possible.
Ignorance leads to fearfilled choices, and fear causes all manner of bad choices.
The 'superior' thinking and 'judgement' of countless leaders and teachers of country, village, sect, religious order, etc. has done all manner of harm.

Decernment is a far better word than judgement...Decernment leads to awakening, whereas judgement leads to feeling 'superior'...which to me is foolish, as well as dangererous.

I suppose for the sake of biblical precidence I could quote Jesus who is to have said: "Judge not lest ye be judged..(judged) by the very judgement by which you have judged."

Whether you care to believe it or not ..every persons belief system is valid and right...if only for that person.
Who am I to tell another what he or she can believe. Isn't that where all these wars come from ?
If I want freedom to believe as I choose I have to afford that same freedom to others.
I don't have to agree with, or even like, what another person believes in, but I must accept their right to believe as they so choose.

If one is truly open minded, ideas like 'superiority' and 'judgement' cannot come into play. An open minded person understands that life unfolds for people in different ways, and at different paces.
Again this is only my personal take on things and even this is subject to change.
Russ

[MsTerry]

nonono, Jeff
Prop 8 is about equal rights for people with different lifestyles.

You know me better than that, MsTerry. I think Prop. 8 was an expression of bigotry and intolerance and that is an inferior position to my own.

-Jeff

But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

If you use your formula on gay marriage, well, the outcome would be that it is dangerous and a form of denial.

[MsTerry]

The problem with Jeff's formula is that it assumes he is always right and therefore others are in denial. What follows is that Jeff was also right when he was younger, even though he has now denounced his past,
If Jeff were to meet the younger Jeff, they both would think they are right.

Baba, I agree, People learn at different paces and everybody thinks they are right, right?
I've never heard anybody say; I am doing this because I am convinced this is wrong.

I see reasons for not feeling 'superior' to other evolving beings (and their points of view). A bit of humility is always useful....remembering that all beings evolve at different paces.

Life is for learning (imho) and time and experience are what makes learning possible.
Ignorance leads to fearfilled choices, and fear causes all manner of bad choices.
The 'superior' thinking and 'judgement' of countless leaders and teachers of country, village, sect, religious order, etc. has done all manner of harm.

Decernment is a far better word than judgement...Decernment leads to awakening, whereas judgement leads to feeling 'superior'...which to me is foolish, as well as dangererous.

I suppose for the sake of biblical precidence I could quote Jesus who is to have said: "Judge not lest ye be judged..(judged) by the very judgement by which you have judged."

Whether you care to believe it or not ..every persons belief system is valid and right...if only for that person.
Who am I to tell another what he or she can believe. Isn't that where all these wars come from ?
If I want freedom to believe as I choose I have to afford that same freedom to others.
I don't have to agree with, or even like, what another person believes in, but I must accept their right to believe as they so choose.

If one is truly open minded, ideas like 'superiority' and 'judgement' cannot come into play. An open minded person understands that life unfolds for people in different ways, and at different paces.
Again this is only my personal take on things and even this is subject to change.
Russ

[babaruss]

The problem with Jeff's formula is that it assumes he is always right and therefore others are in denial. What follows is that Jeff was also right when he was younger, even though he has now denounced his past,
If Jeff were to meet the younger Jeff, they both would think they are right.

Baba, I agree, People learn at different paces and everybody thinks they are right, right?
I've never heard anybody say; I am doing this because I am convinced this is wrong.

A Jesuit retreat Master once remarked: I'm an idiot, you're and idiot, so why are we arguing ?" That sort of sums it up for me...having said that and being the idiot I am..I often forget and end up arguing anyway.
What has slowly been taking over my thought process is 'what does it matter anyway'. the surrendering of my over inflated ego seems to make it easier to accept differing points of view...or at least accept the person having them.
Russ

[zenekar]

Russ,

I appreciate your perspective re. religion and that individuals and societies evolve at different rates. But, if those who hold on to beliefs that cause harm or restrict others' human rights, impose their beliefs, esp. through laws, one cannot expect humility from the victim.

European settlers/occupiers considered Africans and Indigenous peoples to be less than 100% human. I reckon that the people subjected to such a belief didn't (and don't) consider those beliefs to be "valid." Same logic applies to homophobia, when some people's beliefs infringe on others' human rights.

Attila
---

I see reasons for not feeling 'superior' to other evolving beings (and their points of view). A bit of humility is always useful....remembering that all beings evolve at different paces.

Life is for learning (imho) and time and experience are what makes learning possible.
Ignorance leads to fearfilled choices, and fear causes all manner of bad choices.
The 'superior' thinking and 'judgement' of countless leaders and teachers of country, village, sect, religious order, etc. has done all manner of harm.

Decernment is a far better word than judgement...Decernment leads to awakening, whereas judgement leads to feeling 'superior'...which to me is foolish, as well as dangererous.

I suppose for the sake of biblical precidence I could quote Jesus who is to have said: "Judge not lest ye be judged..(judged) by the very judgement by which you have judged."

Whether you care to believe it or not ..every persons belief system is valid and right...if only for that person.
Who am I to tell another what he or she can believe. Isn't that where all these wars come from ?
If I want freedom to believe as I choose I have to afford that same freedom to others.
I don't have to agree with, or even like, what another person believes in, but I must accept their right to believe as they so choose.

If one is truly open minded, ideas like 'superiority' and 'judgement' cannot come into play. An open minded person understands that life unfolds for people in different ways, and at different paces.
Again this is only my personal take on things and even this is subject to change.
Russ

[Franklin Johnson]

Right on, Attila! That's exactly what this thread is all about in the first place.

Your post puts this debate back on track with the intent of the original message as well as into its proper perspective. All the rest are digressions.

Prop 8 is bigotry, pure and hard. Supporters of Prop 8 don't have any right whatsoever to take away the rights of others, gay, black, or otherwise. This fight has not ended yet. It's going for the long haul. California courts are going to bounce Prop 8 out on its ear.

Franklin

Russ,

I appreciate your perspective re. religion and that individuals and societies evolve at different rates. But, if those who hold on to beliefs that cause harm or restrict others' human rights, impose their beliefs, esp. through laws, one cannot expect humility from the victim.

European settlers/occupiers considered Africans and Indigenous peoples to be less than 100% human. I reckon that the people subjected to such a belief didn't (and don't) consider those beliefs to be "valid." Same logic applies to homophobia, when some people's beliefs infringe on others' human rights.

Attila
---

[babaruss]

I disagree with the victimization aspect of your argument.
Buddha taught: "hatred ceases not with hatred".
Or put yet another way...ignorance begets ignorance.
He also said do not "cry out..oh look how badly they treated me...look how I was knocked down and beaten".
Message there is to find a healthier way of dealing with the ignorance of others.

Anything less than a humble approach is doomed to failure at least as far as dealing with human failings are concerned (imho).
'Light not heat' is a more practical and productive way to deal with changing the minds of others. Perhaps I should say...a better means of offering new perspectives/ideas for their perusal.

Awareness can not be forced upon anyone.
Understanding comes slow to most...rarely does one suddenly 'get it' and rush out to live the enlightened life.

Earlier I posted some comments about pretty much what you are talking about here.
My ancestors comprise Native Americans, at least one Black slave, several Irish slaves...indentured servants who incidentally were treated far worse that Black slaves. Reason being Black slaves were life long slaves while the Irish indentured servants were worked to death to get the most out of the limited time they were to serve.
To add to this mix, I have ancestors on both sides of the civil war...civil war if you were with the North...war between the states if you were with the South.
I've heard all manner of stories about who did what to who.
Some of my ancestors were the perpetrators of the wrongs you mentioned..others were the so called victims.

I cannot undo my past let alone undo my ancestors past.
You cannot legislate intelligence, love, compassion, or any other worthy human attributes.
I can only learn as I go as does every other being on this planet does.

I could go on forever citing my own errors, bigotry, failings etc, but what's the point. In ignorance I was a bigot, a flag waving patriot, a homophobe,
and countless other things.


I do not distance myself from where I have been regardless of what I have done, or how shameful that wrong was. Life is for learning...time makes learning possible. That's my path...that's probably the path for all beings, but I'm only sure of what is proper for me today.

I learned from the examples set before me as a child..I unlearned through the examples set before me as a maturing adult.
I mean really where to hell was I going to dip my small child's cup for a sip of compare and contrast when my well was poluted.

In many areas I am no doubt still bigoted, ...asleep, unaware...call it what you will. In time perhaps those failings will change as I recognize them.
Until then I accept myself (and all others) just as I (they) are right now.

I'm afraid I've rattled on way to much here.
Take what I offer for whatever worth you deem it.
Russ

Russ,

I appreciate your perspective re. religion and that individuals and societies evolve at different rates. But, if those who hold on to beliefs that cause harm or restrict others' human rights, impose their beliefs, esp. through laws, one cannot expect humility from the victim.

European settlers/occupiers considered Africans and Indigenous peoples to be less than 100% human. I reckon that the people subjected to such a belief didn't (and don't) consider those beliefs to be "valid." Same logic applies to homophobia, when some people's beliefs infringe on others' human rights.

Attila
---

[babaruss]

Bigotry. ignorance (not knowing), what's the difference ?
The 'Church' has no business entering into politics.
The 'People' have no business voting on issues pertaining to
the rights of others. The constitution makes everything clear
already.
Why either of these situations were allowed to happen is the
only real argument that should be taking place here.
Since that's not happening...all we can do is wait for the
Supreme Court to deal with this whole mess.
Meanwhile pissing, and moaning, about how vile the church
is, or what a bunch of bigots there are in this world, is
not only counter productive, but is a huge waste of time
as well.
And while Bigotry is the main subject matter here:
Consider this ..just because one person's belief clash with
yours does not mean that person is a bigot. It only makes
that person may be locked into his, or her, own flawed belief
system.
'Educate rather that alienate' is a far saner, productive
approach to people who are locked in, afraid, or just ignorant.

It worked for me when I was running an AIDS program during
a time when PWA's were first class pariahs.
In a relatively short time, people who screamed about having
PWA's anywhere near them became our cheif source of support.
Russ

Right on, Attila! That's exactly what this thread is all about in the first place.

Your post puts this debate back on track with the intent of the original message as well as into its proper perspective. All the rest are digressions.

Prop 8 is bigotry, pure and hard. Supporters of Prop 8 don't have any right whatsoever to take away the rights of others, gay, black, or otherwise. This fight has not ended yet. It's going for the long haul. California courts are going to bounce Prop 8 out on its ear.

Franklin

[Franklin Johnson]

I have just one question for you, Russ:

Indeed, why were either of these situations allowed to happen?

Franklin

Bigotry. ignorance (not knowing), what's the difference ?
The 'Church' has no business entering into politics.
The 'People' have no business voting on issues pertaining to
the rights of others. The constitution makes everything clear
already.
Why either of these situations were allowed to happen is the
only real argument that should be taking place here.
Since that's not happening...all we can do is wait for the
Supreme Court to deal with this whole mess.
Meanwhile pissing, and moaning, about how vile the church
is, or what a bunch of bigots there are in this world, is
not only counter productive, but is a huge waste of time
as well.
And while Bigotry is the main subject matter here:
Consider this ..just because one person's belief clash with
yours does not mean that person is a bigot. It only makes
that person may be locked into his, or her, own flawed belief
system.
'Educate rather that alienate' is a far saner, productive
approach to people who are locked in, afraid, or just ignorant.

It worked for me when I was running an AIDS program during
a time when PWA's were first class pariahs.
In a relatively short time, people who screamed about having
PWA's anywhere near them became our cheif source of support.
Russ

[Franklin Johnson]

I would like to present another angle on this issue. This is an idea expressed by a friend of mine. It is the following:

It seems to me the entire dialog around this Proposition 8 issue is being framed wrongly. All these polls that ask whether people are in favor of gay marriages or not? Completely the wrong question, as it's no one else's business. That's like asking people if they are in favor of vegetarianism or not. What journalists and pollsters should be asking is: "Do you feel the Government has the right to tell you whom you may or may not marry?" Ask THAT question of people on the street, and I think you'd come up with entirely different statistics! And then we'd have a basis for deciding what policies should be inscribed in law.

What do you think?

Franklin

[Braggi]

I see reasons for not feeling 'superior' to other evolving beings (and their points of view). A bit of humility is always useful....remembering that all beings evolve at different paces.

Humility's fine. No problem with that. When comparing two religions, say one where equality of rights and sanctity of the body are primary values vs. another where subjugation of women and genital mutilation of children are primary values it's pretty easy to see one as superior to the other, or else you're in denial. Judgment is often not easy but sometimes it really is. Sometimes it's obvious.

My problem is that our culture has made it politically incorrect to judge another's religion and I think that's an error.

I'm not talking about judging the intrinsic value of or the superiority of one class or race over another. Yes, I think all beings have value. Do all beings have equal value? I leave that up to your judgement.

... Ignorance leads to fearfilled choices, and fear causes all manner of bad choices.
The 'superior' thinking and 'judgement' of countless leaders and teachers of country, village, sect, religious order, etc. has done all manner of harm.
...

Are you projecting this kind of thinking on me? If so, you have misjudged me.

... Decernment is a far better word than judgement...Decernment leads to awakening, whereas judgement leads to feeling 'superior'...which to me is foolish, as well as dangererous.
...

I think that's a cop out. The word is discernment and it means judgement.

dis·cern·ment (d-sûrnmnt, -zûrn-)
n.
1. The act or process of exhibiting keen insight and good judgment.
2. Keenness of insight and judgment.

I think it's a less "judgement" loaded term. What can I say. It's a cop out.

... I suppose for the sake of biblical precidence I could quote Jesus who is to have said: "Judge not lest ye be judged..(judged) by the very judgement by which you have judged."
...

You have to look at who assembled the Bible. The Roman government wanted a docile population who wouldn't judge the atrocities and mistreatment of the "superiors." Nice when an abuser can claim God told you not to question the abuse you and others must endure. In some cases the history of religions can be written in those terms.

That's another cop out and a way to not take responsibility for what's going on around you.

Russ, I have a lot of respect for you and your gentle ways. However, other posters in this thread have pointed out the fallacy of just living and letting live. That's the path that allows the KKK to lynch innocent people and the Nazis to haul away people who are different from you. There comes a time for judgement, for crying out and for action.

As far as Prop. 8 is concerned, that time is now.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... "Do you feel the Government has the right to tell you whom you may or may not marry?" Ask THAT question of people on the street, and I think you'd come up with entirely different statistics! And then we'd have a basis for deciding what policies should be inscribed in law.

What do you think?

In terms of getting poll numbers to look the way you'd like, that's fine.

However, there's something you and your friend are missing here: there should be no polling and no questions because the ability to marry in our culture is a right and nobody should be able to remove a right from another person. Not in this country. Not by law.

Individuals are supposed to be protected from "the tyranny of the majority." That's the premise our country was founded upon.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

nonono, Jeff
Prop 8 is about equal rights for people with different lifestyles.

If you use your formula on gay marriage, well, the outcome would be that it is dangerous and a form of denial.

Prop. 8 is about a lack of equal protection under the law. That makes it unconstitutional. It's really that simple.

And as usual your logic is MIA.

-Jeff

[babaruss]

This is closer to 'right thinking' but still off course.
No one should be polling anyone (where other people's preferences, rights. etc. are at stake).

The constitution does not stipulate, or regulate, who does what, as far as the pursuit of happiness is concerned.
The issue should never have been placed on a ballot to begin with.
The church should never have gotten involved politically on this, or any other issue that is of a political nature.
The fact that is was actually put to a vote is where all this chaos came from.

People will naturally support their own point of view when a thing like that happens.
They are absolutely right where it comes to expressing their points of view by ballot, or any other constitutionally acceptable means.
I do not blame people for supporting their own point of view.
I do think that whoever allowed this whole mess to be put on a ballot needs
to be educated, corrected, and set straight (no pun intended).
Russ

I would like to present another angle on this issue. This is an idea expressed by a friend of mine. It is the following:

It seems to me the entire dialog around this Proposition 8 issue is being framed wrongly. All these polls that ask whether people are in favor of gay marriages or not? Completely the wrong question, as it's no one else's business. That's like asking people if they are in favor of vegetarianism or not. What journalists and pollsters should be asking is: "Do you feel the Government has the right to tell you whom you may or may not marry?" Ask THAT question of people on the street, and I think you'd come up with entirely different statistics! And then we'd have a basis for deciding what policies should be inscribed in law.

What do you think?

Franklin

[MsTerry]

Bigotry?
The way you want to crucifix religion, that is bigotry.
You want some more bigotry?
read this, and see the similarities with how you are blaming religion
Obama election spurs race crimes around country

By JESSE WASHINGTON, AP National Writer Jesse Washington, Ap National Writer 1 hr 17 mins ago
Cross burnings. Schoolchildren chanting "Assassinate Obama." Black figures hung from nooses. Racial epithets scrawled on homes and cars.
Incidents around the country referring to President-elect Barack Obama are dampening the postelection glow of racial progress and harmony, highlighting the stubborn racism that remains in America.
From California to Maine, police have documented a range of alleged crimes, from vandalism and vague threats to at least one physical attack. Insults and taunts have been delivered by adults, college students and second-graders.
There have been "hundreds" of incidents since the election, many more than usual, said Mark Potok, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate crimes.
One was in Snellville, Ga., where Denene Millner said a boy on the school bus told her 9-year-old daughter the day after the election: "I hope Obama gets assassinated." That night, someone trashed her sister-in-law's front lawn, mangled the Obama lawn signs, and left two pizza boxes filled with human feces outside the front door, Millner said.
She described her emotions as a combination of anger and fear.
"I can't say that every white person in Snellville is evil and anti-Obama and willing to desecrate my property because one or two idiots did it," said Millner, who is black. "But it definitely makes you look a little different at the people who you live with, and makes you wonder what they're capable of and what they're really thinking."
Potok, who is white, said he believes there is "a large subset of white people in this country who feel that they are losing everything they know, that the country their forefathers built has somehow been stolen from them."
Grant Griffin, a 46-year-old white Georgia native, expressed similar sentiments: "I believe our nation is ruined and has been for several decades and the election of Obama is merely the culmination of the change.
"If you had real change it would involve all the members of (Obama's) church being deported," he said.
Change in whatever form does not come easy, and a black president is "the most profound change in the field of race this country has experienced since the Civil War," said William Ferris, senior associate director of the Center for the Study of the American South at the University of North Carolina. "It's shaking the foundations on which the country has existed for centuries."
"Someone once said racism is like cancer," Ferris said. "It's never totally wiped out, it's in remission."
If so, America's remission lasted until the morning of Nov. 5.
The day after the vote hailed as a sign of a nation changed, black high school student Barbara Tyler of Marietta, Ga., said she heard hateful Obama comments from white students, and that teachers cut off discussion about Obama's victory.
Tyler spoke at a press conference by the Georgia chapter of the NAACP calling for a town hall meeting to address complaints from across the state about hostility and resentment. Another student, from a Covington middle school, said he was suspended for wearing an Obama shirt to school Nov. 5 after the principal told students not to wear political paraphernalia.
The student's mother, Eshe Riviears, said the principal told her: "Whether you like it or not, we're in the South, and there are a lot of people who are not happy with this decision."
Other incidents include:
_Four North Carolina State University students admitted writing anti-Obama comments in a tunnel designated for free speech expression, including one that said: "Let's shoot that (N-word) in the head." Obama has received more threats than any other president-elect, authorities say.
_At Standish, Maine, a sign inside the Oak Hill General Store read: "Osama Obama Shotgun Pool." Customers could sign up to bet $1 on a date when Obama would be killed. "Stabbing, shooting, roadside bombs, they all count," the sign said. At the bottom of the marker board was written "Let's hope someone wins."
_Racist graffiti was found in places including New York's Long Island, where two dozen cars were spray-painted; Kilgore, Texas, where the local high school and skate park were defaced; and the Los Angeles area, where swastikas, racial slurs and "Go Back To Africa" were spray painted on sidewalks, houses and cars.
_Second- and third-grade students on a school bus in Rexburg, Idaho, chanted "assassinate Obama," a district official said.
_University of Alabama professor Marsha L. Houston said a poster of the Obama family was ripped off her office door. A replacement poster was defaced with a death threat and a racial slur. "It seems the election brought the racist rats out of the woodwork," Houston said.
_Black figures were hanged by nooses from trees on Mount Desert Island, Maine, the Bangor Daily News reported. The president of Baylor University in Waco, Texas said a rope found hanging from a campus tree was apparently an abandoned swing and not a noose.
_Crosses were burned in yards of Obama supporters in Hardwick, N.J., and Apolacan Township, Pa.
_A black teenager in New York City said he was attacked with a bat on election night by four white men who shouted 'Obama.'
_In the Pittsburgh suburb of Forest Hills, a black man said he found a note with a racial slur on his car windshield, saying "now that you voted for Obama, just watch out for your house."
Emotions are often raw after a hard-fought political campaign, but now those on the losing side have an easy target for their anger.
"The principle is very simple," said BJ Gallagher, a sociologist and co-author of the diversity book "A Peacock in the Land of Penguins." "If I can't hurt the person I'm angry at, then I'll vent my anger on a substitute, i.e., someone of the same race."
"We saw the same thing happen after the 9-11 attacks, as a wave of anti-Muslim violence swept the country. We saw it happen after the Rodney King verdict, when Los Angeles blacks erupted in rage at the injustice perpetrated by 'the white man.'"
"It's as stupid and ineffectual as kicking your dog when you've had a bad day at the office," Gallagher said. "But it happens a lot."

Prop 8 is bigotry, pure and hard. Supporters of Prop 8 don't have any right whatsoever to take away the rights of others, gay, black, or otherwise. This fight has not ended yet. It's going for the long haul. California courts are going to bounce Prop 8 out on its ear.

Franklin

[babaruss]

We can get completely crazy bouncing word meanings around.
There are a several meanings pertaining to the word judgement.
I refer to that feeling of 'it's my way or the highway'.
'I'm right and you're wrong'...that sort of thinking.

The world is full of things which are to me repugnant, or even down right horrific.
But what goes on in another's world is not my problem (unless I choose to take it on).
I have enough of my own failings to deal with..and if not that ...then my own country has enough to keep me busy for a life time.

It is o.k in my view, to decide that I do not agree with, nor support certain things. It is not o.k. in my view to feel I am the better person because my views differ..or are to my way of thinking more humane.

Equality is a societal concept which is worth what ever value that particular society places on it. Add to that words like 'freedom', 'justice'. 'rights' and you still are dealing with concepts...not truth.

Likewise, people who mutalite, subjugate, or what have you...are following their own conceptual constructs.
As far as they are concerned their view is the superior one.

They guy who throws himself onto a grenade to save his buddies is in our world a hero.
But the guy who straps on a bomb to destroy invaders is a terrorist.
Both are following their beliefs by putting their lives on the line.

When I stop to examine other peoples points of view..their truth as it were...I find myself trying to find ways of honoring their right to believe as they see fit while at the same time wanting to rid them of those beliefs that I (coming from my societal construct) deem unacceptable. When this happens I find my self getting a bit crazy...I know what I prefer to happen, but at the same time realize that I am imposing my values on others. Huge contradictory mess there...this interferring with another's belief system. And who can really say they are absolutely wrong, and I am absolutely right ?

I am not projecting anything on anyone..I state my clumsy beliefs and let it go at that.

Is it possible that by suggesting I'm a cop out that you are judging me in the way I referred earlier ?

The world is full of people claiming they are guided by God. The one glaring factor in all of this vivtimization is human ignorance both of the leaders and the followers. The victim is often responsible for his own victimization.
Ignorance begets more ignorance.

I take full responsibilty for my own actions, and thoughts.
How the hell am I to take responsibility for another's ignorance ?
When I was young I went constantly into the fray, standing up for not only my rights, but for the down trodden as well.
I've finally seen some of that effort bear fruit...a Black president is the most obvious reward. I feel a bit of joy at knowing I played a part in that happening regardless of how minimal that part may have been.

Over the years I've seen a creeping acceptance of peoples and ideas which were hugely unacceptable when I was a child. This tells me that views are changing, and this is enough for me now.
I'm trying in my tiny way to raise consciousness.. if only my own.
I've been around long enough to know I can no longer raise hell and pretend there will not be consequences.
Insult a man by exposing his ignorance, or by calling him names, and you make an enemy.
Lead by example..live your truth and let it go at that is what works for me today.

If that's a cop out well find me guilty and sentence me to what ever it is you judgement deems suitable.
Russ

[Franklin Johnson]

Jeff, I found this post of yours especially enlightening. I really like your observation that judgment has gotten a bad rap. It's kind of like there is an unwritten commandment in our society that says: "Thou Shalt Not Judge!" And it is a predominant bullshit attitude.

Judgment, like anything else, has its place. And the same people, most of us, who fall prey to this 'commandment' do indeed judge things and people everyday whether we realize it or not. The question is when is it appropriate.

And regarding those folks who have voted yes on Prop 8 and judged same sex marriage as wrong have certainly judged wrongly. And they are going to eat shit when the courts throw out their bigoted, proposed amendment.

Franklin

Russ, I appreciate your post and your point of view. However, I see no reason to avoid a feeling of superiority when your ways are clearly superior to someone else's.

Face it: not all religions are created equal. It's OK to judge. Why are we so careful to avoid being or appearing judgemental? If we don't judge we make bad decisions.

Judgement has gotten a bad rap. Feeling superior has gotten a bad rap. Belligerence we need to avoid. Close mindedness we need to avoid. Violence we need to avoid. But considering everyone's point of view and everyone's way of life as equally valid is dangerous and is a form of denial.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

The proponents of prop 8 used their judgment to write an amendment to the constitution.
What I am getting from you, is that it is wrong for them to judge you but it is OK for you to judge them.
Not only do you know what is right and wrong, you also know what their punishment will be.
"And they are going to eat shit "
I assume this is a reference to anal sex

Jeff, I found this post of yours especially enlightening. I really like your observation that judgment has gotten a bad rap. It's kind of like there is an unwritten commandment in our society that says: "Thou Shalt Not Judge!" And it is a predominant bullshit attitude.

Judgment, like anything else, has its place. And the same people, most of us, who fall prey to this 'commandment' do indeed judge things and people everyday whether we realize it or not. The question is when is it appropriate.

And regarding those folks who have voted yes on Prop 8 and judged same sex marriage as wrong have certainly judged wrongly. And they are going to eat shit when the courts throw out their bigoted, proposed amendment.

Franklin

[Franklin Johnson]

(I have edited this post)

Ms. Terry, let's cut through the crap here:

Prop 8 is wrong. Period.

You will only be able to see this when the California Supreme Court throws it out because you are unable to see it on your own. 52% of Californians voted to take away a fundamental right from other human beings, something that they don't have either a legal or an ethical right to do. Now the democratic institutions have to do their job and say, "NO!"

The majority of people still need a parent to tell them what's right and wrong (just like you), unfortunately. Now, the government has to do this unpleasant chore with a bunch of grownup children who don't know any better and need to be taught differently. These are grownup children who are bigots, religious bigots, very wealthy bigots, and quite simply people who can't see further than their own nose, and some who can't think for themselves.

The Constitution of California does not authorize a majority to take away the rights of minorities. This includes the right to marry. People who are gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, etc. are no less human and do not have less rights than anyone else. Their rights cannot be taken away by the passage of Prop 8.

This is really what this is all about. You have missed that. You've missed the larger canvass and I'm disappointed in you because I regarded you as one of the more enlightened people on this list.

Also, the passage of Prop 8 clearly implies that there is something wrong with the LGBTQ, etc Community. And that they must necessarily be treated, legally, as second class citizens. This is the exact same "separate but equal" crap that was overturned in the US Supreme Court's decision, Brown v. Board, 1954. Prop 8 is also a religiously motivated amendment, which violates the US Constitution's separation of church and state. Citizens should not be governed by religion. I don't want other people imposing their religious bigotry on me through the law.

Franklin

The proponents of prop 8 used their judgment to write an amendment to the constitution.
What I am getting from you, is that it is wrong for them to judge you but it is OK for you to judge them.
Not only do you know what is right and wrong, you also know what their punishment will be.
"And they are going to eat shit "
I assume this is a reference to anal sex