PD: Dad wants to join an online Sonoma County Mom's group

[Barry]

In world of online moms, can dads come out and play?

When one Santa Rosa man signed on to mothers networking group, resounding answer from members was 'No!'

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080514/NEWS/805140336/1033/NEWS&template=kart

By DEREK J. MOORE
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT
May 14, 2008

Gary Traffanstedt, with daughter
Anna, 2,

For two years, hundreds of Sonoma County women have connected on a Web site dedicated to moms, where the discussions range from parenting and play dates, to more intimate thoughts on husbands and sex lives.

And then one day last week, the unthinkable happened: a man signed on as a new member.

"Hi all," began the online introduction from Gary. "I'm a dad."

The resulting uproar on sonomacountymom.com, where dozens of the site's 361 members posted angry messages voicing their opposition to Gary's presence, raises the hot-button issue of people attempting to crash gender-specific businesses, clubs or online forums.

Unlike the case of a women-only gym in Santa Rosa that was sued by the state after a man was denied entry as a member, the issue with the mom's Web site comes at a time when laws pertaining to discrimination online are still unclear.

Legal issues aside, the story speaks to parental anxiety in an age of "To Catch a Predator," as well as to the sometimes oxymoronic notion of Internet privacy and what experts say is a dearth of resources for stay-at-home dads.

Gary Traffanstedt, the Santa Rosa man responsible for all of the fuss, said his intention in joining the mom's Web site was to network with other parents, not to start a movement.

Wanted to be upfront

The self-employed Web programmer said he sought out the group specifically because he spends so much time online. His wife, Rebecca, previously joined the site, but he said he would have considered it "dishonest" to simply post using her login information.

"I never wanted to sue anybody. I never wanted to cause any trouble. I never wanted to take up the cause of men joining women's groups," he said in an interview. "I don't have the time or energy to do that. I just wanted to join a community of like-minded parents. It wasn't Sonoma County women. It was Sonoma County moms."

His formal introduction to the group May 5 seemed innocuous enough. In it, he described himself as the 30-year-old father of a "wonderful little girl" and wrote that he loves to cook, shop and spend time with his family, and that he's on a diet to slim down from 287 pounds.

"I have a great recipe that I developed myself for Thanksgiving turkey if anyone is interested," he wrote.

The response was less than friendly.

"Wow," came the first reply from a poster calling herself "Brookepanda." "I'm pretty uncomfortable with this."

That was at 9:31 p.m. By the following day, dozens of women had weighed in, the overwhelming majority of them to castigate Traffanstedt and to share their fears that he would read their private posts.

"I have to be honest and say I am a little leery," wrote "Luckylove." "Not at the fact that you can read my personal 'girly' posts but at the fact that I have no idea who you are and could be some kind of pervert for all I know."

'I'm not a criminal'

Traffanstedt said he took such posts to be an invitation to leave, which he did, less than 24 hours after he signed on. He said he felt discriminated against.

"I'm not a criminal. I'm not a sex offender. I've never been arrested," he said. "There was no other reason to have the feeling against me other than I'm a male and this is a women's group. If you're going to exclude someone simply because they're male, isn't that the definition of discrimination?"

But Jackie Reitz, a stay-at-home mom who started the Web site in 2006, said she was never opposed to Traffanstedt becoming a member.

Her main concern, she said, was that he not have access to some of the more private forums in which women discuss such intimate matters as postpartum depression or sore nipples from breast-feeding.

"We still to this day have never once said he's not welcome on this board," she said.

She did, however, lament the tone of the posts that burned up the Web site even as she and Traffanstedt attempted behind the scenes to work out a deal for him to join the group.

"Both myself and the moderators are very embarrassed by the way it went," she said. "A lot of our members were more aggressive than the type of attitude that we promise on our site."

Forum shut down

It got so tense that moderators shut down the forum in which Traffanstedt introduced himself. But the heated rhetoric continued in a private forum under the heading, "Dad's on SCM?"

There, a small minority of members angrily accused their fellow moms of turning the site into, as one put it, "a hate group" toward men.

"The bottom line for me is not being able to stand for any kind of prejudice . . . and that is what this is," wrote another mom under the name "PixiesPlayhouse."

Lorna Brown, who owns My Gym Children's Fitness Center in Santa Rosa, wrote in to say she was "embarrassed" by the negative responses.

"If we were all having a playdate and the guy joined in with his daughter would you confront him that way verbally? I doubt it," she wrote.

Brown had met Traffanstedt in person -- he had learned about her gym through the Web site -- and she said that he struck her as an attentive dad.

"I have only met Gary briefly and he seems to be an attentive parent who wants the best for his child," she wrote via e-mail.

But a relationship that started out on shaky ground got rockier when Reitz said Traffanstedt paid for a senior membership on the site while they were still working out how best to allow him on. That membership allowed him access to the "private" forum, where the debate about his presence raged.

"He chose to go behind my back," she said.

Anyone can join the site and gain access to forums about general parenting topics. For an $18 annual fee, a person can become a senior member, which allows them to post in the "private" forum. To post in even more restrictive areas, members must go to a verification party, usually held at a Santa Rosa park, as a condition of approval.

Traffanstedt said he obtained the senior membership only because it would have allowed him to post a photo of himself, which he said he hoped would allay fears.

As the owner of a private online forum, Reitz probably would have been on solid legal footing had she simply chosen to bar Traffanstedt from joining the group.

That's because as yet, the Internet is mostly an unregulated frontier.

"Plainly, it's the ability of those who set up Web sites to create groups and exclude people from those groups," said Harvard law professor John Palfrey, the executive director of the Berkman Center for Internet and Society.

In the real world, the question is how to apply California law that prohibits discrimination based upon gender.

That was the issue with Body Central, a gym that was sued by the state Department of Fair Employment and Housing after a Santa Rosa man, Phillip Kottle, complained he was denied membership in 2003 because of his gender.

Attorneys for the state Department of Fair Employment and Housing said Body Central violated California's civil rights law, which says businesses can't discriminate based on sex, race or religion.

Such laws do not exist online. But that's changing.

Internet law evolving

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decided last month that a Web site called Roommates.com may be found liable for violating fair housing laws by matching roommates according to gender, sexual orientation and parenthood.

Federal law protecting Web sites "was not meant to create a lawless, no-man's land on the Internet," the court in San Francisco said in an 8-3 ruling.

Katie McMullen, president of the Santa Rosa Mothers' Club, which has been around for 16 years, said the not-for-profit agency does not exclude people based on gender.

"If a dad wanted to join, it wouldn't be a problem," she said. "But truthfully, most of the people who want to join are stay-at-home moms who are looking for other women to commiserate with."

Bill Haigwood, director of philanthropy for the California Parenting Institute and of the agency's father outreach programs, said he empathizes with Traffanstedt's desire to connect with other dads, as there is a noticeable dearth of such resources in Sonoma County.

The support groups the Parenting Institute hosts for men are more geared toward preventing child abuse or to counsel men undergoing divorce, he said.

"My gut feeling is that he would benefit from working with some dads, but it's not easy to connect with fathers," Haigwood said.

Concerned about privacy

Many of the moms on the Sonoma County Web site were less worried about legal issues, however, than they were with a man having access to posts they had considered to be off-limits to prying eyes.

It appears many of the women were under the impression that the "private" forum was, in fact, subject to the most restricted access.

Several women wrote in to say they were frantically deleting past posts and photographs. Some stated that they were considering leaving the site altogether.

"It definitely opened our eyes that the Internet is not, by any means, a private area," said Marisa Snow, a Santa Rosa mother and a moderator of the site. "We're either going to have to implement some controls, or accept the fact that we don't know who's out there. That brings up the whole fear thing."

As of Tuesday night, sonomacountymom.com was down because it had exceeded the space on its server and crashed, according to a note posted on the Web site. It said it could take several days to fix the problem.

Meanwhile, Reitz has relocated to Texas and is trying to turn over the Web site to new owners. But already, she's changed the "private" forum to one where members must pay for access and be verified face to face. That still may not be enough to prevent prying eyes.

"You pretty much have to treat them (Web sites) as public spaces," said Palfrey, the Harvard professor. "It's not all that different than going into the town common and having a conversation, with one big difference being that it may be recorded for posterity. It may be a lot less private by virtue of the technology."

You can reach Staff Writer Derek J. Moore at 521-5336 or [email protected].

[Clancy]

There's no such thing as privacy on the internet, and no way to know who you are actually communicating with. The 'Dad' who is causing the controversy could be a 15 year old girl for all we know.

[Barry]

There's no such thing as privacy on the internet, and no way to know who you are actually communicating with. The 'Dad' who is causing the controversy could be a 15 year old girl for all we know.

That's not true. I know who you are and you know who I am.

That's one of the reasons I hold our WaccoBB.net Socials, Business Fairs and Picnics, so we can have a "real" connection and know who each other is!

[Clancy]

I can only trust that it's Barry logging on to your account and responding to me, I don't actually know. It seems likely that it's you, but you can't prove you're not Mrs Wacco or someone else using Barry's account.

That's not true. I know who you are and you know who I am.

That's one of the reasons I hold our WaccoBB.net Socials, Business Fairs and Picnics, so we can have a "real" connection and know who each other is!

[Lenny]

Don't you love the "news"? We don't seem to be as "tolerant" in our "liberal" Sonoma County we may deem, no?
Personally, I fully support women's exclusive ANYTHING. Physical, like a gym, store, etc, or virtual, like a website, chat room.
As the song sang he was, "trying to drink whiskey outta' bottle of wine".
I simply wish males were as respected in their desire for same.
Also truly believe that most folks, in the main, have no desire to interpose with the others thing.

[MsTerry]

With internet-relations and photoshop our lives can be virtually perfect

I can only trust that it's Barry logging on to your account and responding to me, I don't actually know. It seems likely that it's you, but you can't prove you're not Mrs Wacco or someone else using Barry's account.

[MsTerry]

So what does this all mean to YOU, Barry?
Are you posting this more as a moderator than as a father?
Are ypu planning on making private, more intimate circles?
What did you walk away with?

Love
your MsTerry

[Clancy]

You bring up an interesting point. If we are equal under the law, then we are equal whether or not it's conveniant or comfortable.

I have a hunch that's why we won't be seeing a military draft again in this country. The moment men are forced into life risking service while women are not, someone will make a class action suit, women will be included in the draft, then overnight you'd see the greatest antiwar movement in history, because America accepts using her young men for involuntary cannon fodder, but absolutely will not tolerate the same for young women.

Presumably, the Pentagon and the corporations it represents would not want to spark such a powerful antiwar movement, they're too busy struggling to build empire and maintain the world's largest military machine.

Don't you love the "news"? We don't seem to be as "tolerant" in our "liberal" Sonoma County we may deem, no?
Personally, I fully support women's exclusive ANYTHING. Physical, like a gym, store, etc, or virtual, like a website, chat room.
As the song sang he was, "trying to drink whiskey outta' bottle of wine".
I simply wish males were as respected in their desire for same.
Also truly believe that most folks, in the main, have no desire to interpose with the others thing.

[Lenny]

You bring up an interesting point. If we are equal under the law, then we are equal whether or not it's conveniant or comfortable.
I have a hunch that's why we won't be seeing a military draft again in this country. The moment men are forced into life risking service while women are not, someone will make a class action suit, women will be included in the draft, then overnight you'd see the greatest antiwar movement in history, because America accepts using her young men for involuntary cannon fodder, but absolutely will not tolerate the same for young women.
Presumably, the Pentagon and the corporations it represents would not want to spark such a powerful antiwar movement, they're too busy struggling to build empire and maintain the world's largest military machine.

As you believe the last remark, then those folks wouldn't care.
But you do have a good point, probably not worth much, but we could be like all those other "advanced" countries we admire so much, like Europe, where women and men are drafted. The truth is, from The Great War of the 20th century, women stepped forward very well and supported the war with the effort such that had they NOT, we would be speaking German, while many of us would decorate lamps. I would rather die in prison than have my daughter in combat, unless she wanted to then she would be dead by my hand probably, but if she were to sign in some other capacity, then I would only worry continuously. Matter of fact she is receiving her Masters Degree at this very hour! And I am laying up blabbing with you! Forget it, I'm going to get out of bed and have a cuppa'. You have a nice day.

[Clancy]

I'm not hoping that we get comfortable with forcibly sending young women off to kill and be killed for corporate America, I'm hoping we begin to have the same visceral reaction to the idea of sending young men.

Until then, the relatively new laws regarding discrimination based on gender will unintentionally protect young men from involuntary servitude.

As you believe the last remark, then those folks wouldn't care.
But you do have a good point, probably not worth much, but we could be like all those other "advanced" countries we admire so much, like Europe, where women and men are drafted. The truth is, from The Great War of the 20th century, women stepped forward very well and supported the war with the effort such that had they NOT, we would be speaking German, while many of us would decorate lamps. I would rather die in prison than have my daughter in combat, unless she wanted to then she would be dead by my hand probably, but if she were to sign in some other capacity, then I would only worry continuously. Matter of fact she is receiving her Masters Degree at this very hour! And I am laying up blabbing with you! Forget it, I'm going to get out of bed and have a cuppa'. You have a nice day.

[Lenny]

I'm not hoping that we get comfortable with forcibly sending young women off to kill and be killed for corporate America, I'm hoping we begin to have the same visceral reaction to the idea of sending young men.Until then, the relatively new laws regarding discrimination based on gender will unintentionally protect young men from involuntary servitude.

Is it the case that young men are made for war? Seems to be so. Old men to but fighting is a lot more difficult.
And if we raise young men to be something other than.....would there be only one "group" left? I know it's idle speculation, but it is all I have at this point.