A Reply to Betina's Reply on Homeschooling

[neil]

Betina, you wrote,

"But my mom always said " if you have nothing nice to say .......don't say anything "

Well, if my mom had said that to me I would have told her to bug off. Just because what I have to say may not seem "nice" to someone else doesn't mean it's not worth saying. And I sure as hell don't want someone ELSE deciding what it is I should and should not say based on THEIR sensibilities.

When Valley Oak calls the public schools "pathetic and shitty" I assume he has his reasons for saying that. But how will you ever find out what HE means by "pathetic and shitty" if you're busy calling him to the principle's office about how he said it.

Your experience may be (probably is) different than his. You didn't like what he said or the way he said it. OK, FINE. And I didn't like YOURS! Do you see my point? We need to be able to say what we need to say the way we need to say it. And no one outside of ourself is going to be able to know what "the way I need to say it" is in any given case. The only POSSIBLE way that they might ever know what I really mean is if I DO say what I need to say the way i need to say it.


And there I've said it, but not like nothing further can be said....

Neil D.

[Valley Oak]

I have edited the original version of this post:

Indeed, some people want to deny others their constitutional right to freedom of expression. They can't accept any criticism because it is taken personally, which is an enormous mistake. I am criticizing the system, and with good reason, and I have a legal and ethical right to do this.

It is disturbing that a poster attempted to blame the victims for the consequences of such a poor system of public education (here in the U.S.). When I was growing up in the sixties, the judicial tide was being turned around in court whenever a defense attorney tried to get their client off from rape charges by blaming the lady for wearing a short skirt, stating that this provoked the defendant and he was therefore not guilty.

Blaming the victim is a common, knee-jerk reaction from people who are in denial and feel personally threatened by the truth. But in the case of issues such as how lacking public education is, they take it personally when they shouldn't. They believe that their ego is more important than freedom of expression. Just because a person uses strong adjectives to criticize a holy cow, as I did, doesn't mean that they are wrong, and much less that it is in some inconceivable way, their fault.

Also, if a person is a part of that system or are earning their pay from it, or are in some other way interested, then it doesn't matter how wanting or corrupt the system is because they will always defend it tooth and nail no matter how obvious the truth is about its decadence. This is grossly dishonest but what makes it far worse is to blame the victims, such as myself, my daughter, my wife, and many others. This is what happened in this thread about how shitty and pathetic the public school system really is.

Edward

Betina, you wrote,

"But my mom always said " if you have nothing nice to say .......don't say anything "

Well, if my mom had said that to me I would have told her to bug off. Just because what I have to say may not seem "nice" to someone else doesn't mean it's not worth saying. And I sure as hell don't want someone ELSE deciding what it is I should and should not say based on THEIR sensibilities.

When Valley Oak calls the public schools "pathetic and shitty" I assume he has his reasons for saying that. But how will you ever find out what HE means by "pathetic and shitty" if you're busy calling him to the principle's office about how he said it.

Your experience may be (probably is) different than his. You didn't like what he said or the way he said it. OK, FINE. And I didn't like YOURS! Do you see my point? We need to be able to say what we need to say the way we need to say it. And no one outside of ourself is going to be able to know what "the way I need to say it" is in any given case. The only POSSIBLE way that they might ever know what I really mean is if I DO say what I need to say the way i need to say it.


And there I've said it, but not like nothing further can be said....

Neil D.

[Braggi]

Indeed, some people want to deny others their constitutional right to freedom of expression. They can't accept any criticism because it is taken personally... They believe that their ego is more important than freedom of expression. Just because a person uses strong adjectives to criticize a holy cow, as I did, doesn't mean that they are wrong, and much less that it is in some inconceivable way, their fault.
...

No Edward, Betina's criticisms of your original post were not off base nor did they "blame the victim." Stop acting like such a victim and maybe you'll stop feeling like one.

Betina wasn't criticizing you, but the stupidity of your choice of words. You do this all the time with your inflammatory posts. You shoot yourself in the foot because you use words that turn your readers off. You don't do anything to move your cause forward when you make yourself an enemy of well meaning people working on the other side. Do you think all teachers in the public school system are "pathetic and shitty?" Do you think the same of all public schools? If you do you are woefully ignorant and you make a poor soldier for your cause.

I agree with Betina that you really could use a little more thought and creative editing before you make one of your irritating and inflammatory posts railing against your cause of the day. Try to read it with the eye of someone you'd like to convince of your point of view. Imagine someone who isn't informed and who may be sitting on the fence regarding a decision that could be impacted through information you can provide.

Can you choose words that don't turn the reader off or turn the reader against your point of view? I often cringe when I read your posts because I usually agree with you, and yet I see you as a very poor spokesperson for your cause. I think your posts often do more harm than good even though I think your heart is in the right place and your information is usually accurate.

In the case of the schools, the situation is so much more complicated than you make it out to be. The schools aren't as bad as you say. However, the results are so often compromised because of a miasmal atmosphere caused by the influences of television programs; especially sitcoms that model disrespect among family members and authority figures, popular movies, video games and the magazine covers that promote the notion that being beautiful and popular will also make you successful in life. We have a "get rich quick" mentality in our culture that undermines the notion of hard work and true achievement. When the winner of a lottery gets more press than a breakthrough medical discover that took decades of development and the hard work of thousands of dedicated professionals what is the message to an impressionable youngster? Why work when we can get rich quick with no work?

When you paint your child as a victim of the schools you drop the responsibility you and your family hold in reality. It isn't the fault of the school or the child if that child fails to achieve. It's the fault of a much larger system of interacting forces that conspire to drive the child into the mediocrity and social slavery of the mass culture of consumerism.

The only force opposing the consumerist culture is the family. That's you, buddy. If you've failed your child, don't blame the school.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

...

The only force opposing the consumerist culture is the family. That's you, buddy. If you've failed your child, don't blame the school.

-Jeff

I left something important out of that last statement. I believe the schools, and more importantly, the teachers, are also forces struggling against the consumerist culture. We, as parents, would do well to support those schools and teachers that are swimming upstream in this massive force called "our culture." Our culture is sick and needs a lot of work by a lot of people to make any improvements at all. It's hard when we're exhausted by our working lives and economic forces that threaten to break our finances along with our spirits.

The only hope is to reinvigorate our schools with our true family values and we can do that only with a positive attitude and a lot of volunteer time and money.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

Jeff,
I think this is your most eloquent and sincerest post I have ever read.
I hope he is able to hear it, but you might want to rewrite your last sentence. it needs a little bit more honey

No Edward, Betina's criticisms of your original post were not off base nor did they "blame the victim." Stop acting like such a victim and maybe you'll stop feeling like one.

Betina wasn't criticizing you, but the stupidity of your choice of words. You do this all the time with your inflammatory posts. You shoot yourself in the foot because you use words that turn your readers off. You don't do anything to move your cause forward when you make yourself an enemy of well meaning people working on the other side. Do you think all teachers in the public school system are "pathetic and shitty?" Do you think the same of all public schools? If you do you are woefully ignorant and you make a poor soldier for your cause.

I agree with Betina that you really could use a little more thought and creative editing before you make one of your irritating and inflammatory posts railing against your cause of the day. Try to read it with the eye of someone you'd like to convince of your point of view. Imagine someone who isn't informed and who may be sitting on the fence regarding a decision that could be impacted through information you can provide.

Can you choose words that don't turn the reader off or turn the reader against your point of view? I often cringe when I read your posts because I usually agree with you, and yet I see you as a very poor spokesperson for your cause. I think your posts often do more harm than good even though I think your heart is in the right place and your information is usually accurate.

In the case of the schools, the situation is so much more complicated than you make it out to be. The schools aren't as bad as you say. However, the results are so often compromised because of a miasmal atmosphere caused by the influences of television programs; especially sitcoms that model disrespect among family members and authority figures, popular movies, video games and the magazine covers that promote the notion that being beautiful and popular will also make you successful in life. We have a "get rich quick" mentality in our culture that undermines the notion of hard work and true achievement. When the winner of a lottery gets more press than a breakthrough medical discover that took decades of development and the hard work of thousands of dedicated professionals what is the message to an impressionable youngster? Why work when we can get rich quick with no work?

When you paint your child as a victim of the schools you drop the responsibility you and your family hold in reality. It isn't the fault of the school or the child if that child fails to achieve. It's the fault of a much larger system of interacting forces that conspire to drive the child into the mediocrity and social slavery of the mass culture of consumerism.

The only force opposing the consumerist culture is the family. That's you, buddy. If you've failed your child, don't blame the school.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

I have edited my original post:

Jeff, I appreciate your thoughtful responses. As always, you have succeeded in pointing out some valid observations although I don't agree with everything you said in your reply. I can see that I alienate people with my manner of expressing a position and I will keep your statements in mind in the future because it is important to me to be able to champion a cause and not make enemies.

On the other hand, I strongly disagree with your final statement that we have failed our daughter and that the public education system had nothing to do with her negative experiences. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am a dedicated father. My wife is a dedicated mother. We both pay a lot of attention to our daughter's needs and saw that the public education system was hurting her so we reacted. We now homeschool her and her academic performance has catapulted! What does that tell you?

There is more for me to respond to in your thoughtful message, more thoughtful than most posts I read on this list.

Thanks again,

Edward

No Edward, Betina's criticisms of your original post were not off base nor did they "blame the victim." Stop acting like such a victim and maybe you'll stop feeling like one.

Betina wasn't criticizing you, but the stupidity of your choice of words. You do this all the time with your inflammatory posts. You shoot yourself in the foot because you use words that turn your readers off. You don't do anything to move your cause forward when you make yourself an enemy of well meaning people working on the other side. Do you think all teachers in the public school system are "pathetic and shitty?" Do you think the same of all public schools? If you do you are woefully ignorant and you make a poor soldier for your cause.

I agree with Betina that you really could use a little more thought and creative editing before you make one of your irritating and inflammatory posts railing against your cause of the day. Try to read it with the eye of someone you'd like to convince of your point of view. Imagine someone who isn't informed and who may be sitting on the fence regarding a decision that could be impacted through information you can provide.

Can you choose words that don't turn the reader off or turn the reader against your point of view? I often cringe when I read your posts because I usually agree with you, and yet I see you as a very poor spokesperson for your cause. I think your posts often do more harm than good even though I think your heart is in the right place and your information is usually accurate.

In the case of the schools, the situation is so much more complicated than you make it out to be. The schools aren't as bad as you say. However, the results are so often compromised because of a miasmal atmosphere caused by the influences of television programs; especially sitcoms that model disrespect among family members and authority figures, popular movies, video games and the magazine covers that promote the notion that being beautiful and popular will also make you successful in life. We have a "get rich quick" mentality in our culture that undermines the notion of hard work and true achievement. When the winner of a lottery gets more press than a breakthrough medical discover that took decades of development and the hard work of thousands of dedicated professionals what is the message to an impressionable youngster? Why work when we can get rich quick with no work?

When you paint your child as a victim of the schools you drop the responsibility you and your family hold in reality. It isn't the fault of the school or the child if that child fails to achieve. It's the fault of a much larger system of interacting forces that conspire to drive the child into the mediocrity and social slavery of the mass culture of consumerism.

The only force opposing the consumerist culture is the family. That's you, buddy. If you've failed your child, don't blame the school.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

I have edited the original post:

Well, I personally don't care much anymore about a public education system that we have pulled our daughter out of. I do in a more political sense where I would support a candidate or legislation or an initiative to reform this insufficient system.

Sorry if that offends you but we do still have some choices left in our sinking 'democracy.' The choice we made is homeschooling. But I think you've put too much emphasis on the individual role of teachers, parents, and their administrators. There is only so much we can do and I know they work hard because I was one of them! I was the president of the PTA at my daughter's school, desperately trying to raise enough funds to barely educate our children. I saw first hand how hard we parents, teachers, and administrators work to provide a good education for our children. This includes the principal, the board, secretary, almost all of whom were parents at this school.

I can't tell you how profoundly frustrating it was to see how short our extreme efforts went, not for lack of direct involvement of the people I've already mentioned but because of how lacking the public education system is in the larger canvas, such as lack of public funds for our children's education, lack of adequate pay for our teachers, lack of educational programs and resources in general. It is just plain wrong to force a public school to fund itself with bake sales and silent auctions.

The money should be guaranteed by the government. That's why we pay taxes and that's why we have 'public education.' If not, then take your kid to a private school if you can afford it or homeschool them, which is what we have done.

Please try to reply to this post.

Thanks,

Edward

I left something important out of that last statement. I believe the schools, and more importantly, the teachers, are also forces struggling against the consumerist culture. We, as parents, would do well to support those schools and teachers that are swimming upstream in this massive force called "our culture." Our culture is sick and needs a lot of work by a lot of people to make any improvements at all. It's hard when we're exhausted by our working lives and economic forces that threaten to break our finances along with our spirits.

The only hope is to reinvigorate our schools with our true family values and we can do that only with a positive attitude and a lot of volunteer time and money.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... We now homeschool her and her academic performance has catapulted! What does that tell you?...

I salute you for taking a step that is serving your family well. We have wrestled with the notion of pulling Freya, now in the fifth grade, from her public school from time to time. The reasons are more social than academic but they do overlap as you know. The schools, both public and private, are a complex stew of conflicting interests and forces. It's quite the challenge to find a course that best serves the student and each student has unique needs. Freya is blessed to attend one of the best public schools around, so I do understand your frustration since we are are frustrated from time to time with our school even though it's a "good one."

The current shame of teachers and administrators having to take valuable time away from their jobs to do fund raising is infuriating to me. Wouldn't it be nice if our legislators did their jobs so the schools could do theirs? But I suppose that's the topic of another thread.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

...It is just plain wrong to force a public school to fund itself with bake sales and silent auctions.

The money should be guaranteed by the government. That's why we pay taxes and that's why we have 'public education.'...

Please try to reply to this post.

You're right.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

Are both of you aware that Sebastopol is unique in having TWO Waldorf Charter Schools available to the community. It is public school with a twist.
Learning is a very individual process, what works for some doesn't work for all.
It is a lot easier to get in at the higher grades than it is at the lower grades.
You might even run into Barry or me.................
And I agree most of the teachers are very dedicated people who are even more frustated with the system than we are.

The most aggrevating state tactic is to underfund the schools, but demand full responsibility. It hurts the teachers, the students and ultimately all of society.

I salute you for taking a step that is serving your family well. We have wrestled with the notion of pulling Freya, now in the fifth grade, from her public school from time to time. The reasons are more social than academic but they do overlap as you know. The schools, both public and private, are a complex stew of conflicting interests and forces. It's quite the challenge to find a course that best serves the student and each student has unique needs. Freya is blessed to attend one of the best public schools around, so I do understand your frustration since we are are frustrated from time to time with our school even though it's a "good one."

The current shame of teachers and administrators having to take valuable time away from their jobs to do fund raising is infuriating to me. Wouldn't it be nice if our legislators did their jobs so the schools could do theirs? But I suppose that's the topic of another thread.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

There is more for me to respond to in your thoughtful message, more thoughtful than most posts I read on this list.

Thanks again,

Edward

Ed, you are fortunate to have a friend like Jeff

[Valley Oak]

I am!

Edward

Ed, you are fortunate to have a friend like Jeff