1 in 20 US Muslims favor al Qaeda

[gandalf]

Hell, I'll make my own headline here. 27% would not answer this question (how many of the 27% do you think actually like al Qaeda, half, more?). This is currently making news as how mainline Muslim people are. It seems to be a feel good story on top of some really disturbing numbers. This is not a raciest statement, it's a survey, it's a fact.

So that's about 100,000 people (or more) in the US, about the population of Santa Rosa, that think that killing everyone and establishing their own religious government is the way to go. It is a real problem.

You can read the report and make up your own mind:

https://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

or you can trust the media to make up your mind for you.

[paulrankin]

For anybody interested page 54 of the link Ganalf provides is where he got his numbers. I am interested how you determined that half or more of the non respondents favor al Qaeda?

Hell, I'll make my own headline here. 27% would not answer this question (how many of the 27% do you think actually like al Qaeda, half, more?). This is currently making news as how mainline Muslim people are. It seems to be a feel good story on top of some really disturbing numbers. This is not a raciest statement, it's a survey, it's a fact.

So that's about 100,000 people (or more) in the US, about the population of Santa Rosa, that think that killing everyone and establishing their own religious government is the way to go. It is a real problem.

You can read the report and make up your own mind:

https://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

or you can trust the media to make up your mind for you.

[gandalf]

Simply speaking I didn't. I asked the general population how much they thought actually supported al Qaeda out of the 27%. I suggested half or more as possibilities. Think about it, 27% declined to answer the question of what they thought about al Qaeda. Obviously they actually have some opinion or simply have never heard of them (highly unlikely for a Muslim person). Now, how likely are you to decline to answer if you actually dislike al Qaeda (which would be viewed as a positive thing by the general population). But if you actually support the unpopular view that al Qaeda is the right on you're a lot more likely to decline to answer. So I'd guesstimate that more than half of those declining to answer are actually pro-al Qaeda, but I admit it's complete supposition.

Also of the 5% that favor al Qaeda, 4% somewhat favor them and 1% completely favor them. So most of these people think that al Qaeda is the right way to go and doing the good work where only about 20,000 people are really card carrying members on the al Qaeda band wagon.

[ThePhiant]

Simply speaking I didn't. I asked the general population how much they thought actually supported al Qaeda out of the 27%. I suggested half or more as possibilities. Think about it, 27% declined to answer the question of what they thought about al Qaeda. Obviously they actually have some opinion or simply have never heard of them (highly unlikely for a Muslim person). Now, how likely are you to decline to answer if you actually dislike al Qaeda (which would be viewed as a positive thing by the general population). But if you actually support the unpopular view that al Qaeda is the right on you're a lot more likely to decline to answer. So I'd guesstimate that more than half of those declining to answer are actually pro-al Qaeda, but I admit it's complete supposition.

Also of the 5% that favor al Qaeda, 4% somewhat favor them and 1% completely favor them. So most of these people think that al Qaeda is the right way to go and doing the good work where only about 20,000 people are really card carrying members on the al Qaeda band wagon.

what do you think is the percentage of Americans that condone torture, search and destroy actions, false imprisonment and preemptive strikes? to name just a few of the terrorist tactics of the US government.
Haven't we turned into terrorists yet?

[paulrankin]

So is it fair to say you are not a big supporter of the fifth amendment, assuming that if people decline to answer questions they are most likely guilty of something. What if that 27% felt uncomfortable giving a view on al Qaeda because they feared al Qaeda may seek them or their realatives out for harm. I'm going to guess there could be two or maybe even three reasons, other than they support al Qaeda, that they would decline to answer questions about it.

You also posted:

Also of the 5% that favor al Qaeda, 4% somewhat favor them and 1% completely favor them. So most of these people think that al Qaeda is the right way to go and doing the good work where only about 20,000 people are really card carrying members on the al Qaeda band wagon.

I didn't see the part of the report that said anybody was a member of al Qaeda, could you site the page for me?

Simply speaking I didn't. I asked the general population how much they thought actually supported al Qaeda out of the 27%. I suggested half or more as possibilities. Think about it, 27% declined to answer the question of what they thought about al Qaeda. Obviously they actually have some opinion or simply have never heard of them (highly unlikely for a Muslim person). Now, how likely are you to decline to answer if you actually dislike al Qaeda (which would be viewed as a positive thing by the general population). But if you actually support the unpopular view that al Qaeda is the right on you're a lot more likely to decline to answer. So I'd guesstimate that more than half of those declining to answer are actually pro-al Qaeda, but I admit it's complete supposition.

Also of the 5% that favor al Qaeda, 4% somewhat favor them and 1% completely favor them. So most of these people think that al Qaeda is the right way to go and doing the good work where only about 20,000 people are really card carrying members on the al Qaeda band wagon.

[gandalf]

Well this seems like a load of crap that has nothing to do with anything said here. I can't imagine people are so incapable of coming up with a good argument that they just try to change the subject.

A "Haven't we turned into terrorists yet?"

This has nothing to do with the facts that I presented here. I agree that we shouldn't be torturing people. I'm completely against it. Your whole argument seems to be: we kill people so we should all be killed. If that's truly your position I think you should set a good example and get on with it.

B "So is it fair to say you are not a big supporter of the fifth amendment"

Jeeze, go back to grade school. Could you possibly sound any stupider. I was commenting on results of a survey that was completely voluntary. This clearly has nothing to do with the fifth amendment.

Now your other points bring things back to the adult world. That there are other possibilities are quite possible and I think you're suggested other reasons are right. I do think that it is still likely that a more than half of the non-responses actually are in favor of al Qaeda. However there is no proof of that, just a possibly good argument.

The thing about card carrying bandwagon people is just phrase. It means that they've completely bought into the al Qaeda ideals. I'm sorry if I made it sound as if they were training in camps and carrying AK-47s. What does the study say? They strongly favor al Qaeda.

The 1 in 20 thing is pure statistics. One in twenty Muslims kinda think you have to kill the Jews and the Gays and install Islam based governments all over the world. One in five of these guys really want to support that. Perhaps their sending a tithe to al Qaeda now. Other places in the report there are stats on how favorable suicide bombing is.

I suggest people read things like this and read them critically. Make up your own mind after listening to the arguments. In my experience people on the far right and the far left have their minds equally closed. This leaves us with whatever the media is preaching.

Another little tidbit about how people think is that if a particular fact or reality doesn't jive with a persons world, it is conveniently ignored, dismissed or a flimsy argument is interjected so that the brain can move on to other things. I'm not saying what anyone has to decide. I'm saying look at the facts for yourself and decide for yourself.

I suspect that if 1 out of 20 Republicans wanted to kill the Gays and were working out ways to do so, there would be no hotter topic of discussion on this bbs.

What was the last large group of people that wanted to kill the Jews and Gays and install their flavor of government all over the world?

[ThePhiant]

Well this seems like a load of crap that has nothing to do with anything said here. I can't imagine people are so incapable of coming up with a good argument that they just try to change the subject.

A "Haven't we turned into terrorists yet?"

This has nothing to do with the facts that I presented here. I agree that we shouldn't be torturing people. I'm completely against it.

Your whole argument seems to be: we kill people so we should all be killed. If that's truly your position I think you should set a good example and get on with it.

this is quite a jump, even for Gandalf!!!
what I am alluding to, my dear, is that if we use terror to control and occuppy people's minds, haven't WE turned into terrrorist yet?!
and what do you think is the percentage of US people that think that it is OK to do to others what you can't do to them?

so what exactly is it that you want me to get on with?

[Dixon]

...So that's about 100,000 people (or more) in the US, about the population of Santa Rosa, that think that killing everyone and establishing their own religious government is the way to go.

I think there are far more then 100,000 people in the USA who "think that killing everyone and establishing their own religious government is the way to go". Most of them are Christians or Jews, not Moslems.

Speaking as an ex-fundamentalist myself (Christian variety), let me alert you and everybody on Wacco that, while there are some quite nice Christians, the Christian churches of our USA include many crazy motherfuckers who can justify doing anything to anybody because God is on their side and they're absolutely sure their beliefs are infallibly right. Every murderous war-for-profit the USA has fomented has been enthusiastically cheered by spittle-flecked pulpit-pounding preachers and their conservative congregations all across our country.

Al Qaeda? Yeah, they're somewhat dangerous assholes, but let's put this in perspective: Only in their wildest dreams could Al Qaeda be as dangerous and destructive as our own thoroughly corrupt government. Our government has killed many times more innocents than Al Qaeda, including whoever we're killing right this second. So sure, be afraid of Al Qaeda, but be more afraid of what our rogue empire is doing to our planet.

Let's not let the form of bigotry known as nationalism cloud our judgment. Note how the term "terrorism" is nearly always used in this country: If someone does something brutal that doesn't benefit the ruling class of our country, they're called "terrorists". If someone does something brutal that does benefit the ruling class of our country, they're called "freedom fighters", "heroes", or just "the troops".

And let's all get this through our heads: Our government is not fighting a war on terrorism any more than the Mafia is fighting a war on crime, LOL! As the late great Walt Kelly said in his "Pogo" strip: "We have met the enemy and he is us".

Dixon

[paulrankin]

Gandalf,
Please forgive me for sounding stupid on your thread. My point was that in our society (U.S. society) we recognize that people have a right not to answer questions and not to be presumed guilty of any crime becausethey chose to exercise that right. The fact that it is a voluntary survey souldn't change the fact that we recgonize that people have a right not to answer questions. You are right it was a grade school concept.
As for the part of the report (page 54) stating that 27% of the respondents declined to give an opinion on al Qaeda I believe that from a statistical point of view this number can mean nothing until you at very least know what percentage of the respondents declined to answer the other questions put to them. If 27% of respondents declined to answer all or many of the other quetions as well that would likely mean there was some difficulty understanding the questions or maybe some other problem with how the survey was presented. The fact that the report sites the 27% number could just as easily show a bias on the part of the writer of the report for having pesented that information in a misleading way. I am not a statistian, I am a house painter so I know I am not up to explaining statistical analysis to you or anyone else. I do know that you are not presenting "statistical facts" when you state your conclusions.
In the report (look at the articles on both sides of page 54) I understood them to say that in respondents under the age of thirty there was a much higher tendancy to give favorable opinions towards al Qaeda. To my way of thinking that would make sense. Younger people tend to be more rash in their outlook. Perhaps they feel a sense of powerlessness in their lives that they are trying to compensate.They tend to favor simplistic solutions more readily than more mature people that have taken time to think things through better or have real life experiences of loss due to extreem action. Maybe they feel they will get more respect or more of whatever it is that is missing if they talk tough. Of the ones that say they support al Qaeda I wonder how many are talking the talk and how many are walkiing the walk. I don't know. I would guess that there are some in that group of 20,000 (your number) that are going to walk right down that road and I will also guess that there are some others that lied about their opinion of al Qaeda and they are going to walk right down that road as well. I will also guess that a substanial proportion of those that expressed favorable opinions towards al Qaeda are going to take the time to think things through.
I guess the real question is what should we do about it? What can we do about it. What are you suggesting.

[ThePhiant]

but Dixon are you forgeting that we are Freedumb Fighters and we are spreading Demockcracy around the world?

...

Let's not let the form of bigotry known as nationalism cloud our judgment. Note how the term "terrorism" is nearly always used in this country: If someone does something brutal that doesn't benefit the ruling class of our country, they're called "terrorists". If someone does something brutal that does benefit the ruling class of our country, they're called "freedom fighters", "heroes", or just "the troops".

And let's all get this through our heads: Our government is not fighting a war on terrorism any more than the Mafia is fighting a war on crime, LOL! As the late great Walt Kelly said in his "Pogo" strip: "We have met the enemy and he is us".

[gandalf]

He, he. I must have such a reputation around here for being a hot head.

I'm seeing a couple things going on in general.

We as a culture are viewing the violent faction of the Islamic Religion/Political movement as a good to neutral thing despite actions and ideals by this group that rank them with the KKK and natzis. Somehow because of the religious association and our important stance of religious freedom our society tends to think that we are being intolerant if we have problems with the beliefs of others. This creates a blindness to this in our population.

The various extreme factions of the Muslim religion are dedicated to their convictions, train with real weapons constantly and carry out attacks on a near constant basis. The attacks are more rare, than they are in the middle east but also tend to be on a larger scale. They want to see us all dead or converted it the Muslim religion. I have many people that might not like me, but having people desire to kill me for my existance is something that I tend to take seriously, even more so when their armed with automatic weapons.

Not only are these extreme factions in the middle east, but their also right here. They're not the majority of Muslims, but their right here.

Is this a little different from extreme Christian Fundamentalists? I think so due to the track record. When have Christian Fundamentalists killed someone who was not in their own group? Are there any foiled plans that came to light? There was a natzi stash of of weapons found a couple years ago, but I'm not aware of any such christian based activities.

The thing is I'm not really suggesting any course of action. I just think we have a basic need to eliminate this blindness that we as a society have. We will not be able to see the real picture in our world with this blindness. Our enemy is ourself. We tell ourself lies to make us happy and these lies could kill us; a little like a protecting parent that means well, but leaves the child unprepared for the real world.

Did you guys see the Hamas Micky Mouse on youtube? I don't think it made big news most places:

https://youtube.com/results?search_q...&search=Search

My numbers are extrapolation of the numbers presented in the study. Population x times percentage y equals number z. So they're not really my numbers, they are the numbers of the study.

I'm a bit amazed by Dixon, who embraces al Qaeda and rejects our government of people that we all elect in his statement. Yes I agree that Bush=bad(or even evil), but comparing Bush to al Qaeda is a joke or is the news of the beheading in Cuba just yet to come to light? Who here thinks that Bush (or our government as a whole) is on the same level as a group that wishes to enslave women, kill all jews, kill all gays, and convert or kill every person on earth.

[paulrankin]

I think Gandolf was saying that there is a percentage of the Muslim population (between 1 and 5 percent) he feels are a threat to our way of life, not all Muslims. Gandolf could you clear that up is it all Muslims or just some Muslims you are concerned with?


Wonder how many didn't report unnecessary and egregious behaviors? Are our own servicemembers as dangerous to Iraqi civilians as Gandalf suggest Muslims are to this country?

[Valley Oak]

Gandalf, how about if we do the same with all muslims here in the U.S. as we did with the Japanese during WWII? That is, open up concentration camps for them and put all muslims in these detention facilities? Or shall we ship them off to Guantanamo or somewhere else where we already have this infrastructure and practice this? We will need to increase the concentration camp capacity at guantanamo bay and elsewhere and even open up a few huge ones in the U.S. and abroad. What will be the criteria for detention? Phone taps, email surveillance, subversive books they checked out at their local public library? Skin color? Religious belief? What?

Edward

He, he. I must have such a reputation around here for being a hot head.

I'm seeing a couple things going on in general.

We as a culture are viewing the violent faction of the Islamic Religion/Political movement as a good to neutral thing despite actions and ideals by this group that rank them with the KKK and natzis. Somehow because of the religious association and our important stance of religious freedom our society tends to think that we are being intolerant if we have problems with the beliefs of others. This creates a blindness to this in our population.
...

[Valley Oak]

Gandalf, I just had an idea! How about if we seek out (how?) those 1 in 20 muslims in the U.S. and then put them in jail or execute them? Or we could simply do what is shown in the TV series: "24." They interrogate lots of people, innocent or not, and torture them. This seems to work in acting studios even if not so effectively in Iraq. We have plenty of experience torturing people now, all we have to do is to start using it on all muslims here in the U.S., find out whose against us, and do away with the threat to national security. We let the innocent muslims go back to their praying in mosques, of course, but the guilty muslims who confess their support of al qadea should be tortured some more, imprisoned, or even executed.

Heck, why don't we just start torturing people door to door and iliminate all crime and unpatriotic people! The would be a wonderful, national purge of all unamerican americans and foreigners! We could do away with all social ills, faggots, lesbos, Green Party members, Democrats, bloggers, people like Noam Chomsky, Gore Vidal, Howard Zinn, etc. I'm sick and tired of radical, unpatriotic intellectuals spewing their anti-american, pro-al qaedi diatribe.

Edward

[smithers]

Another way to look at the ones who declined to state: If they publicly state they are not in favor of al Qaeda, their lives are threatened by those who favor al Qaeda, more than the other way around. It may just be smarter for them to not give an opinion publicly.

John

Simply speaking I didn't. I asked the general population how much they thought actually supported al Qaeda out of the 27%. I suggested half or more as possibilities. Think about it, 27% declined to answer the question of what they thought about al Qaeda. Obviously they actually have some opinion or simply have never heard of them (highly unlikely for a Muslim person). Now, how likely are you to decline to answer if you actually dislike al Qaeda (which would be viewed as a positive thing by the general population). But if you actually support the unpopular view that al Qaeda is the right on you're a lot more likely to decline to answer. So I'd guesstimate that more than half of those declining to answer are actually pro-al Qaeda, but I admit it's complete supposition.

Also of the 5% that favor al Qaeda, 4% somewhat favor them and 1% completely favor them. So most of these people think that al Qaeda is the right way to go and doing the good work where only about 20,000 people are really card carrying members on the al Qaeda band wagon.

[gandalf]

Wow, such pure crap gets posted here. The intellectual level around here is dredging the bottom.

All I'm asking is for people to look at and be aware of a fact. A fact that the popular media choose to bury or minimalize for their own agenda. What you do with the information is your own choice.

What do we do? We talk about like educated adults. Discuss it in public forums with Muslims and try to work on a solution, just like we'd discuss youths joining gangs at a school PTA meeting.

Several of you are acting like practicing racial genocide is a protected activity and something that you wholeheartedly support. Why? Do you also support youth violence, and gang warfare? If rape, murder and intolerance is your platform, then I'm very happy to not to be on it.

[gandalf]

Another way to look at the ones who declined to state: If they publicly state they are not in favor of al Qaeda, their lives are threatened by those who favor al Qaeda, more than the other way around. It may just be smarter for them to not give an opinion publicly.

John

Yes this is a very good point. It's a system of bulling. Thats why it needs to be talked about in the open. This all smacks of something from daytime television. Kids of Muslims want to overthrow the government on the next montel.

I suspect that the older generation fears al Qaeda and also has some lingering programming that their way is the right way from when they fled that regime (at least on some level) and the younger generation is more easily swayed by romanticized visions of utopia.

Did you guys know that women are still circumsized in some areas of the middle east? Don't know what that is? Look it up? You'll be shocked.

[smithers]

To make matters worse, in recent headlines, a poll of US soldiers indicates 1 in 3 favors torture, if they think it will get answers. It begs the question, who are they to judge what will get answers? These are the same soldiers we are sending to the US to represent us. There were other questions in the poll that were as disturbing, if not worse. Considering a third of our soldiers hold this attitude, it's not quite as surprising to me that 5% of Muslims might favor al Qaeda. I am NOT saying I feel the same way. As the occupation goes on, and the quality of the soldiers goes down, because of lowering requirements, this can only get worse. This doesn't even take into account the mercs we send.

At few assorted links:
Many U.S. soldiers endorse torture
Study of Soldiers in Iraq Uncovers Troubling Findings about Ethics and Mental Health
One in three US troops 'condone torture'
One in three US combat troops would condone torture: survey
Many Troops Say Torture OK

John S

[gandalf]

I think it's really sad. On some level I think the US knows that torture exists within our government agencies, but for general support of it is bad. I can't believe that we essentially rescinded the Geneva convention. However it is also sad that these same soldiers are fighting a war against a foe who does not believe in the Geneva convention at all. It's a hard situation ether way you look at it.

To make matters worse, in recent headlines, a poll of US soldiers indicates 1 in 3 favors torture, if they think it will get answers. ...

[Dixon]

The various extreme factions of the Muslim religion are dedicated to their convictions, train with real weapons constantly and carry out attacks on a near constant basis.

Yes, that is troubling, but note that all of that also applies to our military. The main difference is that our military is bigger, better funded, and bristling with high-tech weaponry the Muslim zealots can only dream of, and is therefore more successful at slaughtering innocents than the Muslims.

The reason I mention this is not to invalidate your concern about murderous Muslims (concern which I share to some degree), but to convey the important fact that we can't expect the Muslims or anyone else to address their darkness responsibly unless we do the same. I don't see you doing this, gandalf. I see you ignoring, denying or minimizing the USA's depradations while focusing on the admittedly very nasty but far less dangerous Muslim extremists.

Dig this: The most effective thing we could do to disarm the Muslim terrorists and other threats is to stop being terrorists ourselves. Until we completely cease our illegal invasions, our support for murderous dictators who are friendly to our national interests, our support for Israel's brutalities in Palestine, our destruction of the global ecosystem for short-term profit etc., it's hypocritical for us to complain about those other assholes. If we made those positive changes, most of the support enjoyed by those (other) extremists would evaporate.

...(H)aving people desire to kill me for my existance is something that I tend to take seriously, even more so when their armed with automatic weapons.

Is it better if they're armed with Depleted Uranium and other high-tech weapons and want to kill you for your oil?

When have Christian Fundamentalists killed someone who was not in their own group?

Re: Christians (though not all Fundies)--they killed Arabs and many others in the Crusades; they killed pagans (witches) often through unimaginably cruel tortures; they committed genocide on many millions in the conquest of the "New World"; they tortured, lynched or burned many blacks and a few gays/lesbians right here in the USA; they made up a good portion of the Nazis; they continue to kill each other in Ireland; etc.

More specifically re: Fundies--there are thousands of them in this country who would stop at NOTHING to make us a Christian "theocracy", and yes, that means killing lots of us if "necessary". Once in power, some of them would love to exterminate gays, Jews, Muslims, atheists, abortionists, pornographers, evolutionists, whoever. Every illegal invasion this country mounts is enthusiastically supported by Christian Fundies, millions of whom would LOVE to see a huge war in the Middle East because they think that would be the war of Armageddon, presaging the return of Jesus. And they are having an influence on our foreign policy.

Are there any foiled plans that came to light?

Vietnam comes to mind. The Bay of Pigs invasion and other illegal intrigues in Cuba. The deposing of our murderous puppets such as the Shah in Iran and Marcos in the Phillippines. Reagan's plan to invade Nicaragua in the '80's was staunchly supported by the Fundies, but squashed by the more liberal citizenry. Oh yes, and our current follies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There was a natzi stash of of weapons found a couple years ago, but I'm not aware of any such christian based activities.

The Nazis aren't Christian-based? Here's a clue: they're not Muslims, and they sure as fuck ain't Jews!

Other Christian-based weapons stashes can be found at just about any US military post, and we have such posts in over 130 countries around the world--just one more reason the rest of the world feels threatened by us far more than by pathetic upstarts like Al Qaeda. (Here I refer to the US military as Christian-based because most members are Christians, and they are being used partly to pursue a conservative Christian agenda globally, opening up historically non-Christian "markets" to proselytization and exploitation).

I just think we have a basic need to eliminate this blindness that we as a society have. We will not be able to see the real picture in our world with this blindness. Our enemy is ourself.

Nice to see that we agree on something, gandalf!

I'm a bit amazed by Dixon, who embraces al Qaeda...

And I'm more than a bit amazed, gandalf, that a seemingly intelligent person could misinterpret me so thoroughly when I clearly said things like "...Al Qaeda? Yeah, they're somewhat dangerous assholes..." and "So sure, be afraid of Al Qaeda..." Is that what you call "embracing Al Qaeda", gandalf? For you to say that is either stupid or dishonest. I await your apology for that gross distortion.

...and rejects our government of people that we all elect...

Whooooeeeee! One of the best ways to control the masses is to convince them that their society is democratic, and you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker, haven't you, gandy? Here are a few news flashes: Our society has never been a democracy, or even an honest attempt at one. It is an oligarchy. The limited degree of democracy we achieve in this society is always due to grassroots pressure on a ruling class that is committed to opposing democracy both here and abroad. Many elections are decided through out-and-out fraud, notably the last 2 Presidential elections. Even without such fraud, most voters are never exposed to balanced, uncensored information upon which to base intelligent decisions. Even if they had such info, our education system has assiduously avoided teaching the kind of deep critical thinking that would allow them to process the data properly in order to vote intelligently. And those most likely to vote against the entrenched rulers (such as black folks) are not allowed equal access to the polls. Why do you think that United Nations poll-watchers were not allowed to monitor our last couple of major elections? Democracy, gandalf? Do you believe in Santa Claus, too?

Gandalf, if you feel that "our" "elected" "representatives" in the White House represent you, that speaks volumes about what kind of guy you are, but don't insult the rest of us by saying that we elected those lying, thieving, murdering war criminals.

...(C)omparing Bush to al Qaeda is a joke...Who here thinks that Bush (or our government as a whole) is on the same level as a group that wishes to enslave women, kill all jews, kill all gays, and convert or kill every person on earth.

Hmmmm...just a hundred years ago, certain jurisdictions right here in California were paying bounties for the scalps or heads of Indian men, women and children. And of course our country wouldn't even exist without genocide and slavery. But maybe you're just wanting to talk about the present day...

I think you're right, gandalf, that these religious fanatics are more bigoted than our government in certain ways. Thus they would be more likely to actually kill gays etc. rather than just treating them like shit as our government does. And truly women would fare even worse under Moslem rule than under Christian, which would be bad enough.

But our goverment has waaaay more power than these Muslim zealots, and is in fact killing waaaay more innocent men, women and children than they are, so we are the biggest threat worldwide. The surveys I've seen from various countries, including some of the USA's traditional allies, show that this is well understood throughout the world, outside of our self-absorbed, self-righteous empire.

Our government has embarked an an explicit agenda of global domination and profiteering, and has abundantly shown that it will not hesitate to torture and kill anyone who gets in its way. This is consistent with our history--talk to an American Indian, then to an Iraqi. Add to this the fact that our US government helped start Al Qaeda AND the Taliban (using other countries as pawns in our Cold War struggle with the USSR), as well as the fact that the Bushies apparently were behind the events of 9/11/01 (with or without help from Al Qaeda), and I just can't go along with your focusing quite so much on Al Qaeda while whitewashing our own depradations.

Dixon

["Mad" Miles]

Regarding Dixon's comments:

Ditto! What he said!!

You Da Man D.


In partial response to Gandalf:

Female Circumcision is prevalent in certain north eastern and central African societies that have Muslim cultural influences, among others. And yes, it is an abomination. There is nothing about female circumcision in the Koran, and so far I am unaware of it being practiced in the "Middle East" particularly Arab, Persian and Turkik cultures. Feel free to enlighten me with specifics.

Are you now going to call me stupid, ignorant, brain-washed and woefully uninformed as you've painted everyone who does not agree with you here?


On the general question of armed Christian Fundamentalists:

Don't forget that Timothy McVeigh and his partner(s) came out of the U.S. military and the U.S. Patriot/Minuteman/Neo-Nazi/White Supremacist MILITIA groups of the 1980's through early 1990's. Many of which still exist, they just learned to take a lower profile, too much media and FBI attention to keep organizing.

(And yes, I'm linking them, even though they all represent specific, separate tendencies, each with their own unique history and structure, in spite of the links and similarities between them.)

The German Nazi Party had many Christians in it. But the leadership was inspired by pan-theistic German pre-Christian Paganism and the revival of Occult practices in Europe during the mid-1800's on. Check out, "Unholy Alliance" by Peter Levenda which is about the Nazi's and the Occult.


Is Radical Fundamendalist Islam, in the form of Al Queda, Hamas and others (The Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt in particular), a threat to the West?

Good question. To properly answer it one needs to look at the history of the West (Europe and the U.S., England, France and the U.S. post WWI and especially post-WWII in particular) and our involvement, interventions and meddling in the Arabian Peninsula, Northeast Africa and the Fertile Crescent.

It's a long and complicated history, we are facing the consequences of that history, we are continuing the consequences of that history. (We being the U.S. government and linked corporate interests that we the people of the U.S. allow to dominate our foreign policy).

Everyone who wishes to comment on these subjects, and who claims to be informed about them, should be able to answer the following questions:

Who founded and funded Al Queda in the early days? Why?

Who founded and funded Hamas in the early days? Why? What purpose does the existence of Hamas serve for Israeli policy in the "Territories".

Why did Iran become an Islamic Republic? How?

Why does the "President" of Pakistan not order his army to wipe out the Taliban operating from the Tribal areas along the border with Afghanistan?

What was "The Great Game" in Central Asia during the Age of Imperialism? How does it continue today? Who are the current players and what are their interests in it?


Gandalf, you quoted a poll. Any statistician worth their degree knows that polls depend on the way the question(s) are shaped, how they're asked, who is asked (what was the sample group? who did the asking? etc.) and how are the results interpreted and presented.

For instance, if I ask Muslims this question: "Do you think that Al Queda grew out of legitimate concerns that Muslims have with Western policies in Muslim countries?"

I might get a different result than asking: "Do you support the program of terrorist attacks by Al Queda on Western countries?"

I suspect that the first question would get a larger positive response, yet both questions can be presented as a poll on "support" for Al Queda.


After giving the actual polling data that you quoted a cursory look, it is apparent to me that your summary is highly biased, alarmist and simplistic.

There are many ways to reasonably interpret the results.

For instance, how about the reluctance of approximately twenty percent of Western Muslims to reply for fear their answer would get them swept up into the profiling that is central to our governments approach to "The War on Terror"?

(How do you fight a war against a tactic?)

Or how about?

Muslim Arab immigrants know their countries of origins' politics and culture much better than most other Americans (U.S.) and are not as swept up in the hysteria about nefarious Islamic evil that is out to get everyone who is not a true believer. Hence while they see groups like Al Queda as a threat, they don't see them as the overarching powerful force that the MSM in the West makes them out to be.


Gandalf,

Thanks for the link to the study.

As for your alarmist interpretation, are you sure you've read Tolkien's characterization of your namesake carefully?

Gandalf the Grey/White is a force for Good, Reason, Courage and CALM DETERMINATION in the face of Sauron's Evil. He isn't an alarmist or a ninny, in fact he is quite the opposite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandalf


"Mad" Miles

[smithers]

Dixon AND Miles,

Well said to the both of you. I wanted to further emphasize that most of the white supremacist groups and people of that ilk assert that they are Christian and wrap their beliefs not only in the flag, but the Bible as well. I'm not a Christian and have a lot of problems with much of what I hear from the likes of Falwell. I don't mistake the beliefs of supremacists as the beliefs of most Christians, and neither do I mistake the assertions of al Qaeda as being representative of Muslims. A loud, vocal, violent minority does not represent the voice of any people.

John

[paulrankin]

Miles,
Very nicely spoken. Thank you.
Paul

Regarding Dixon's comments:

Ditto! What he said!!

You Da Man D.

In partial response to Gandalf:

Female Circumcision is prevalent in certain north eastern and central African societies that have Muslim cultural influences, among others. And yes, it is an abomination. ...

[paulhenrys]

Miles,
Very nicely spoken. Thank you.
Paul

I'm coming late to this thread. It has been mostly talked out, and interestingly, too. I just wanted to mention two things. One, in relation to the poll that set this thread off, that there are "lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Two. The poll does not serve us well. Any organized school of thought has its extremists, so the poll pointing out that there exists such an extreme among American Muslims should come as no suprise. It seems to me that the poll as reported in the media does us all a disservice in that it begins to lay the groundwork for the division of our population into an "us" and a "them". It is this kind of thinking that must be avoided at all costs, for it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Part of the tragedy of the events post-9/11 is that Bin Laden, who wants a polarized Islamic vs. Judeo-Christian scenario, is tremendously aided in this goal by American foreign policy.

[leo]

I hear that if you join now 10 extra wives will be appointed to you, in the after life also more gold and land whats burger king's hiring bonus?