The Mind Of God

[dreyfusj]

Explore your own religion or belief system and see what it has to tell you about how to live today on this planet. What are the ethical guidelines and how can you live/embody them? Don't waste your precious life energy trying to disprove a different belief.


I think Christ is telling me to live on this planet as an embodiment of, and vehicle for the expression of, His love. And He loves everybody. All the time. How am I doing on "living/embodying" this notion ? Not so well. Better than I used to, certainly. I can see both progress and a very long way to go.

[Dixon]

...Don't waste your precious life energy trying to disprove a different belief.

It's not about trying to prove or disprove anything; it's about seeking truth. That necessarily involves using some kind of reasonable standards to distinguish what's likely to be true from what isn't, which leads to proving/disproving various beliefs, but I'm not attached to any particular belief being true or false; I'm only attached to the search for truth itself. People who are rigidly defended around their closed-minded beliefs will experience that process as some kind of personal attack.

Be the best agnostic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever, you can be.

That sounds like a good, tolerant idea until we look at it a little closer. The problem is that being the best Christian one can be has, in various times and places, involved treating women as second class citizens, treating gays and lesbians as subhuman monsters, waging holy wars to spread the gospel at the expense of many thousands of innocent lives, torturing people to death, burning books and heretics, engaging in genocide, defending slavery, twisting innocent children into repressive anti-intellectual prudes, etc. etc. Furthermore, most of these horrors didn't result from misinterpretation of the Bible; the Bible more or less explicitly endorses nearly all these brutalities.

The same principle holds true to varying degrees for most if not all of the major religions. Twenty million African women have been subjected to grotesque genital mutilation by their loved ones who are trying to be the best Muslims they can be, not to mention millions of males subjected to less extreme genital mutilation by people trying to be the best Jews they can be. When was the last time you heard of an atheist mutilating some child's genitals? Hindus and Muslims slaughtering each other, Protestants and Catholics slaughtering each other, women burned alive on their husbands' funeral pyres, all for religious reasons.

Many, maybe most, of these atrocities would not be happening if people weren't trying to be the best Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/whatever they can be. Sad but true. Here's a relevant quote: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
--Steven Weinberg

And here's a link to a short relevant article about a recent poll in which 42% of Brits polled endorsed Richard Dawkins' quote: "Faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate."

https://www.ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/899

Blessings;
Dixon

[wolfcarnahan]

Truth is a relative thing, especially when one seeks "universal truth" or "spiritual truth". After teaching for 42 years, Buddha, on his death bed, said, "I have searched, but I have not found".

Regardless of what path one takes, Spiritual truth only exists as something that works for the individual. Regardless, also, of what we think, one can never fathom the "truth" that drives the existance of the Universe". THe Mind of God, whatever that is, can never be known by humans. I believe we're really fortunate to percieve what little of the universe and truth that we do.

Whether someone exsisted, or not, is also a nebulous thing. There were several people named Jesus around that time. One lived with the Essenes, one studied with the Brahmen in India, One studied Buddhism, and another was called "the Christ", who's name was actually Joshua ben Joseph. Were they one, and the same?

Osiris, the great God of Egyptian mythology was said to be myth, until they found a sarcophagus under the sphinx that bore his name and inscriptions of his life.

So maybe some people actually existed, but it was other people, MANY years later that wrote about what they said and did. Who can say where THAT truth lies?

Blessings
Wolf




[quote=Dixon;28504]It's not about trying to prove or disprove anything; it's about seeking truth. That necessarily involves using some kind of reasonable standards to distinguish what's likely to be true from what isn't, which leads to proving/disproving various beliefs, but I'm not attached to any particular belief being true or false; I'm only attached to the search for truth itself. People who are rigidly defended around their closed-minded beliefs will experience that process as some kind of personal attack.

[Sara S]

It's not about trying to prove or disprove anything; it's about seeking truth. That necessarily involves using some kind of reasonable standards to distinguish what's likely to be true from what isn't, which leads to proving/disproving various beliefs, but I'm not attached to any particular belief being true or false; I'm only attached to the search for truth itself. People who are rigidly defended around their closed-minded beliefs will experience that process as some kind of personal attack.



That sounds like a good, tolerant idea until we look at it a little closer. The problem is that being the best Christian one can be has, in various times and places, involved treating women as second class citizens, treating gays and lesbians as subhuman monsters, waging holy wars to spread the gospel at the expense of many thousands of innocent lives, torturing people to death, burning books and heretics, engaging in genocide, defending slavery, twisting innocent children into repressive anti-intellectual prudes, etc. etc. Furthermore, most of these horrors didn't result from misinterpretation of the Bible; the Bible more or less explicitly endorses nearly all these brutalities.

In the interest of seeking truth, even though I'm intimidated by your brilliance and I haven't had my coffee yet, I must respond here; for me, being the best Christian one can be would mean following the teachings and life of Jesus of Nazareth, with an open mind to the idea (not endorsed by many who label themselves Christian) that the man may not have been perfectly consistent, and that he may have been a bit mentally bedraggled by the (reported) horrors of the end of his time here. I do grant that most people who call themselves Christian do not accept this as a definition of one.

The same principle holds true to varying degrees for most if not all of the major religions. Twenty million African women have been subjected to grotesque genital mutilation by their loved ones who are trying to be the best Muslims they can be, not to mention millions of males subjected to less extreme genital mutilation by people trying to be the best Jews they can be. When was the last time you heard of an atheist mutilating some child's genitals? Hindus and Muslims slaughtering each other, Protestants and Catholics slaughtering each other, women burned alive on their husbands' funeral pyres, all for religious reasons.

What about Buddhism?

I don't really consider Buddhism a "religion" as much as a way of life, but I can't think of any examples of murder or mutilation done by Buddhists, except for some suicides in protest of widespread horrors.

Many, maybe most, of these atrocities would not be happening if people weren't trying to be the best Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu/whatever they can be. Sad but true. Here's a relevant quote: "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
--Steven Weinberg

This quote seems confusing to me, since, to me, one cannot be a "good" person if one does "evil" things. The quote wouldn't be so succinct if his terms were defined, but maybe he means "people who call themselves 'good' according to the (perhaps) twisted and misinterpreted beliefs that have resulted from centuries of various self-serving translations" of some belief system.

Sara S.

[Tars]

Regardless of what path one takes, Spiritual truth only exists as something that works for the individual. Regardless, also, of what we think, one can never fathom the "truth" that drives the existance of the Universe". THe Mind of God, whatever that is, can never be known by humans. I believe we're really fortunate to percieve what little of the universe and truth that we do.

AMEN!

[mykil]

Is it relevant or is it just legend? Well hell!

I have put allot of thought into this over the years and alwayz seem to come up with the same answer. It really doesn’t matter whom I am praying to as long as I am praying and not out killing people. The teachings are good, no matter what faith you are into at this time. You are taught at a young age that killing or harming someone will come back to haunt you and this is all good! I think after a certain age we all need to wake up and smell the coffee, there is no Santa, there is no Easter bunny there is no… To me there is no difference between God and big foot at this point in my life. Both seem to me to be legends. There is nothing better than a good legion; I have made up a few my self at times to scare my lovely children into doing something good [go to sleep or the floor monkey will get into your brain and densify you].

On the other hand if there are one billion people praying to god every day, does this make him real? This is a far more challenging question to me in general. I mean that is allot of energy being put up in the air or out in the world at any given time, is this our protection from harm in general? My evolution is a rather strange one I believe. I no longer believe in god as the ruler of all eternity, yet I believe in an extremely powerful energy that has a control over us all. Half the peeps on this planet pray to some sort of god. What might happen if no one ever prayed, would we still be here? Would our world even exist?

[nurturetruth]

I feel that we live in a post-modern relative culture of no absolute truths, because our theories are founded on many things, thus at the end of the day , these are merely human constructions, ideas approximating reality, but not absolute truth.

Experience alone can decide on truth;

however...what one perceives, observes, feels or interprets....are all "truth". Your truth is important!! Yet, it is not "The Truth"...

instead of proclaiming or getting hung up on finding "The Truth", why not just discover and nurture "a truth"?!

Truth in matters of religion, is simply "the opinion" that has survived....in my humble opinion..of course!

REMEMBER!!
"Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it! Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true."


"In a closed mind, the truth is no match for a good fantasy.
In an open mind, even the grandest fantasy is no match for the truth."


When God was creating the Universe where did his/her/it's Mind come from?

What was his/her/it's True Self at the moment of Creation?

Does God have Mind or Self?

If so, what, exactly, is the “Mind” and “Self” of God? And, where did they come from?

If no, how is Reality possible?

(( we are all God'(s)/ Goddesses?! WE are the mind of God?! ))

[dreyfusj]

When was the last time you heard of an atheist mutilating some child's genitals?


While I agree completely that every conceivable atrocity has been carried out in the name of religion, including mine, I have to note that the really spectacular crimes, at least of the 20th Century, were committed by atheists, e.g., the Nazis (6 million killed not counting the war dead), the Stalinists, (tens of millions dead "liquidating the kulaks" and or sent into the gulags to die) and the Chinese Communists, again tens of millions dead in the name of "The People".

[Clancy]

While I agree completely that every conceivable atrocity has been carried out in the name of religion, including mine, I have to note that the really spectacular crimes, at least of the 20th Century, were committed by atheists, e.g., the Nazis (6 million killed not counting the war dead), the Stalinists, (tens of millions dead "liquidating the kulaks" and or sent into the gulags to die)

Stalin had a thorough christian upbringing. Not only did he go to a christian school, he spent five years in seminary after graduating.
https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


And Hitler and the Nazis' christianity is well known, myriad history books have been written on the christian influence in the Nazi's development.
https://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

[lifequest]

Stalin had a thorough christian upbringing. Not only did he go to a christian school, he spent five years in seminary after graduating.
https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


And Hitler and the Nazis' christianity is well known, myriad history books have been written on the christian influence in the Nazi's development.
https://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

One comment regarding Hitler's supposed Christianity.. both he and the Nazi elite felt Christianity was a corrupting influence on the German people. They were aware of the Jewish roots of Christianity and feared its historic power. Germany operated under a State religion at the time (Lutheranism I believe) which made fertile ground for an alternative authoritarian belief system. Even though I have virtually no relatives left thanks to that madness, I cannot find any blame with true Christianity for those heinous crimes.

Stalin was a seminarian but again the system he learned was put to evil ends by a devious twisted personality. I don't know if Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist but if so, no one should blame that faith for the mass murder committed in Cambodia.

[Clancy]

I cannot find any blame with true Christianity for those heinous crimes.

Of course not, but the point is, they weren't athiests.

Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
https://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

[Dixon]

...the Nazis (6 million killed not counting the war dead), the Stalinists, (tens of millions dead "liquidating the kulaks" and or sent into the gulags to die) and the Chinese Communists, again tens of millions dead in the name of "The People".

Re: the Nazis--mighty funny atheists, goose-stepping around with "Gott mitt uns" (God with us) inscribed on their uniforms. Here are a couple of relevant quotes from one Adolph Hitler:

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air…"

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

But here's a bigger genocide than that perpetrated by the Nazis: the genocide of the indigenous peoples of the "Americas". Within 100 years of Columbus' arrival, about 100 million Indians--approximately 95% of the population--had been killed, many of them explicitly in the name of Jesus (or his Daddy). This dwarfs the atrocities of the Commies. Sure, many of the Indians died from European-borne plagues, but sometimes those plagues were purposely spread by the pious Christian invaders (such as when they gave the Indians smallpox-infected blankets), and the whites commonly thanked God even for the Indian-killing plagues they didn't start on purpose. For example, King James of England gave thanks to "Almighty God in His great goodness and bounty towards us" for sending "this wonderful plague among the salvages (sic)".

From Columbus on, torture, rape, slavery, murder and every imaginable atrocity were perpetrated explicitly in God's name. Here's a quote from Columbus himself:

"We can send from here, in the name of the Holy Trinity, all the slaves and brazil-wood which could be sold .... one Indian is worth three Negroes."

And, lest we comfort ourself with the false presumption that such brutalities were predicated on misinterpretations of scripture, understand that Christian scripture (among many other kinds) is explicitly bigoted and brutal.

For instance, do you wonder why we have such a brutal, warlike world? Here's a clue: Once upon a time, some people were minding their own business when a warlike tribe sent some spies to infiltrate their city. After causing the city's defensive wall to fall down, the warlike tribe invaded, razing the city, slaughtering every man, woman, child and animal (except the family that had helped the spies), and stealing the precious oils, spices, jewels, etc. This is the Biblical story of Joshua and the "Battle" of Jericho, and the murdering, thieving, warlike tribe are presented as the good guys! The Bible's message is clear: If you have convinced yourself that God is on your side, you can justify doing absolutely anything to anybody. Every time the glorious American Empire invades another country, slaughters their people and steals their resources, understand that this is Christianity in action. Praise the Lord!

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

Blessings;

Dixon, Atheist Angel

[Yahweh]

I have been called upon to observe this Wacco Thread from all angles and dimensions. I know ..I know... "oh god!"

I just hold 1 question:

What happened to the thread of " discussing my mind? "

Hitler, Stalin, and every man who used a form of violence in my name were of me, but NOT me. Just because a heineous act is done in my name, does NOT mean I gave the stamp of approvel on it!

In fact, I neither disapprove nor approve of such tragic heineous acts. Who am I to judge?
All I did was help create ya...the rest is up to YOU!

besides..it is all as it should be

All I can do is continue to observe & keep sending potential lessons in hopes that one day...we will all discover peace..

Love,

GOD

[Carl]

Re: the Nazis--mighty funny atheists, goose-stepping around with "Gott mitt uns" (God with us) inscribed on their uniforms.......

For instance, do you wonder why we have such a brutal, warlike world? Here's a clue: Once upon a time, some people were minding their own business when a warlike tribe sent some spies to infiltrate their city. After causing the city's defensive wall to fall down, the warlike tribe invaded, razing the city, slaughtering every man, woman, child and animal (except the family that had helped the spies), and stealing the precious oils, spices, jewels, etc. This is the Biblical story of Joshua and the "Battle" of Jericho, and the murdering, thieving, warlike tribe are presented as the good guys! The Bible's message is clear: If you have convinced yourself that God is on your side, you can justify doing absolutely anything to anybody. Every time the glorious American Empire invades another country, slaughters their people and steals their resources, understand that this is Christianity in action. Praise the Lord!

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

Blessings;

Dixon, Atheist Angel

Dixon,

I swear, if you are going to quote God's word, at least do not ascribe the ancient version of the Biblical Testament to his/her son called Jesus. Unless you are arguing that, since, as it is said, "he was before Abraham", then he is responsible for Joshua attacking Jericho. That does not follow. I don't think we can argue that Jesus was a leader of war. I always think of him as the peaceful leader, you know the one who turned the other cheek.

And I apologize for swearing, but at least I didn't take the Lord's name in vain. Or did I?

Everything else you said was right on the money. But if rejecting the idea of God and becoming an atheist is your solution to this angst, it may be that is comparable to no longer using the term "Human Being" to describe yourself just because humans seem to lack sentience and presence sometimes. Suppose, for example, that ancient homo sapiens actually crually did away with Neanderthal Man, as an unsuitable living partner. A bloodthirsty and fearful act, yes. Self-negating, no.

[nanclee]

Great post,god IS about love and lessons and humor

I have been called upon to observe this Wacco Thread from all angles and dimensions. I know ..I know... "oh god!"

I just hold 1 question:

What happened to the thread of " discussing my mind? "

Hitler, Stalin, and every man who used a form of violence in my name were of me, but NOT me. Just because a heineous act is done in my name, does NOT mean I gave the stamp of approvel on it!

In fact, I neither disapprove nor approve of such tragic heineous acts. Who am I to judge? All I did was help create ya...the rest is up to YOU!

besides..it is all as it should be

All I can do is continue to observe and keep sending potential lessons in hopes that one day...we will all discover peace....

GOD

[Dixon]

Dixon, I swear, if you are going to quote God's word, at least do not ascribe the ancient version of the Biblical Testament to his/her son called Jesus.

I don't think I ascribed anything to Jesus; I'm not even sure he really existed. I was talking about Christianity, a term which encompasses many beliefs and activites good, bad and neutral. Christianity is not the same thing as Jesus at all.

Unless you are arguing that, since, as it is said, "he was before Abraham", then he is responsible for Joshua attacking Jericho.

Actually, Carl, now that you mention it, that seems like a plausible argument. If, as most Christians believe, Jesus is just one aspect of the god who created and rules the universe, then he (Jesus) may arguably share responsibility for the brutalities of the Old Testament.

I don't think we can argue that Jesus was a leader of war. I always think of him as the peaceful leader, you know the one who turned the other cheek.

The scripture seems contradictory on this. Note this quote, attributed to Jesus: "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household." (from Matthew, chapter 10, NASB translation). There is considerable controversy re: how to interpret this; Jesus (if he really said this at all) could have been speaking metaphorically. Like so many Biblical quotes, it's vague enough to be interpreted according to one's own biases.

But even if we assume that Jesus' message was a consistently peaceful one, all Christian sects that I know of accept the quite brutal and warlike Old Testament as holy scripture. Typical Christian teachings on this issue are confused. As a fundamentalist, I was taught that the Old Testament teachings, while God's inerrant Word, were superceded by Jesus' gospel of peace--a self-contradictory position, of course.

Keeping in mind that I'm talking about Christianity and not the (possibly mythical) Jesus, my main point here is that conservative Christians are consistently among the loudest, most vehement supporters of various brutalities such as war, slavery, sexism, imperialism, homophobia and capital punishment (all in keeping with Old Testament teachings), and that therefore those who would offer conservative Christianity as a moral model are implicitly endorsing those brutalities as moral.

I do recognize the good work of the more progressive sects of Christianity (and Islam, and Judaism, etc.) and therefore don't wish to paint all believers with the same brush. However, since even progressive believers accept superstitious beliefs (God, angels, the afterlife, etc.), they implicitly validate the notion that it's morally responsible to accept things on "faith", which in this context means believing whatever meets your needs regardless of evidence, thus empowering the conservative bigots to believe their noxious crapola with no possibliity of being corrected by reason.

But if rejecting the idea of God and becoming an atheist is your solution to this angst...

My atheism is not a solution to any angst; it's just an honest recognition of the fact that I have yet to find even one compelling argument for the existence of any supernatural entity (including any god), and that therefore, such ideas are probably mythical. The arguments I used to accept as proof of god were shown, upon further study of logic and evidence, to be fallacious.

Blessings;

Dixon

[Clancy]

My atheism is not a solution to any angst; it's just an honest recognition of the fact that I have yet to find even one compelling argument for the existence of any supernatural entity (including any god), and that therefore, such ideas are probably mythical.

And i commend you for your honesty and unflinching quest for truth.

It's entirely possible that we can't even conceive of the true nature of reality, or what we might call God, due to the limitations of our senses and cognitive abilities. There may be realms of existance that we will never know of. That's a very uncomfortable prospect for many of us, thinking we understand the world gives a lot of comfort.

I waver between agnosticism and a belief in an undefinable God because I've found it has beneficial effects. Can I prove God exists? Of course not. Is life lived as if God exists beneficial? In my case, yes, and I've seen various studies over the years that have shown that people who believe in 'God' tend to live longer, healthier, more satisfying lives, especially those who combine their faith with meditation.

So, I think there's compelling reasons to act as if God exists, even though there's not a shred of evidence to prove it.

I also think there's compelling reasons to ban or outlaw organized religion/s, and there's lots of evidence to support that, as we've seen in this thread.

[Dixon]

And i commend you for your honesty and unflinching quest for truth.

Thank you, Clancy! Not everyone is as kind to us atheists, who are just about the most discriminated-against minority in the USA--more than Jews, women, Muslims, gays and lesbians, or even straight white males :^)

It's entirely possible that we can't even conceive of the true nature of reality, or what we might call God, due to the limitations of our senses and cognitive abilities. There may be realms of existance that we will never know of.

All that's entirely true, though I trust that, unlike some folks, you're savvy enough to know that none of it constitutes good reason to assert the existence of a "God".

Thinking we understand the world gives a lot of comfort.

Yes, I think that's one reason people invented gods (and associated beliefs)--to give them the comforting illusion that we understand the world more than we do.

I waver between agnosticism and a belief in an undefinable God because I've found it has beneficial effects. Can I prove God exists? Of course not. Is life lived as if God exists beneficial? In my case, yes, and I've seen various studies over the years that have shown that people who believe in 'God' tend to live longer, healthier, more satisfying lives, especially those who combine their faith with meditation.
So, I think there's compelling reasons to act as if God exists, even though there's not a shred of evidence to prove it.

Yes, indeed--a substantial body of research shows that people who can deceive themselves in various ways have less anxiety and depression than those who don't do so. Often these self-deceptions take the form of unrealistically high self-assessments (such as thinking we're much better at our job than we really are), but god-belief has been shown to have similar benefits. Every continuing behavior has some kind of benefit or it wouldn't continue.

So we can make a pragmatic case for god-belief (IF we ignore its negative correlates--see below) even while recognizing that, in the absence of good evidence, the belief is probably superstitious. However, let me point out that, for a society to maximize its survival chances, a substantial number of its members must deny themselves the comfort of sweet illusions in favor of looking at ugly, scary, uncertain realities. A society that puts its faith in a (probably nonexistent) god is a society that will address its problems superstitiously rather than rationally, thus decreasing the chance that the problems will be solved.

Example 1: The people of Te pito o te henua (Easter Island) apparently substantially destroyed their ecosystem largely because they cut down all their trees in an effort to propitiate their gods. When found by Europeans, the few survivors were eking out a minimal existence, though they'd had a relatively advanced culture before their religious beliefs motivated them to screw up their home.

Example 2: My mom, like millions of folks, refuses to take much responsibility for the serious problems facing our planet because she expects Jesus to come riding out of the sky like the cavalry (Calvary?) at the last minute to save us from the consequences of our folly.

Example 3: Presumably we'd be better off if the time, energy and $$ we waste on addressing our problems superstitiously (through praying, ritualizing and otherwise propitiating gods) were used more reasonably.

So you go ahead and believe what makes you feel good, Clancy (and everyone). We atheists will continue to take on the necessary task of seeing reality as clearly as we can, even at the cost of accepting some anxiety, insecurity, and depression.

I also think there's compelling reasons to ban or outlaw organized religion/s...

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I believe strongly in people's right to believe as they wish. On the other hand, religion is the source of so much bigotry, irrationality and violence that we could make a case for banning it (as if that were possible).

That case becomes even stronger when we consider the fraudulent nature of the claims religions use to keep the suckers tossing their $$ into the collection plate. Claims of the ultimate reward (Heaven) and the ultimate punishment (Hell), which are unverifiable because you have to die to find out if they're true, constitute one of the most cynically diabolical--and effective--frauds ever known.

On top of the obvious religious sources of things like homophobia and misogyny, there are a number of studies which correlate religiosity with various nasty things. For instance, here's a relevant quote from "Religious Belief and Societal Health", a review of a recent major research study, from "Skeptic" magazine, vol. 12, #3: "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies."

And when we factor in the various surveys that show that many clergy don't even believe the claims they're making, the fraudulent nature of most religion becomes undeniable. So, outlaw religion? I admit it's tempting, though doomed to failure.

Blessings!

Dixon

[Tars]

I think there's compelling reasons to act as if God exists, even though there's not a shred of evidence to prove it.

Exactly how I see the universe Clancy.

Do be do be do... .

It's unimportant whether when we physically die we sit on a cloud with a bearded dude for eternity, or just return to the infinity of atoms. What is important is that we try to be the person we think is the best we can attain, while we do unto others as we'd have them do to us. We just can't attain better than that. And if someone else wants to have a list of "commandments" to guide them, why that's just fine. Just don't try to force feed them to me!

I also think there's compelling reasons to ban or outlaw organized religion/s, and there's lots of evidence to support that, as we've seen in this thread.

Can't see it'd be beneficial or realistic to ban organized religions. they keep a lot of people happy, and functionally sane. But..."everything in moderation..."

[Nirmala]

To all the seekers out there. There are more alternatives than the eternalist option such as going to heaven forever or the nilistic option where we are reduced to atoms or nothing. There is the Middle Way.

And yes, how we live our lives is very important, to be the best we can be and do the best we can do and do unto others as we would have others do to us. Once, we live in an ethical way then we can learn to develop our minds and realize some calm and tranquility. Then with the mind concentrated we can realize some wisdom. It takes a lot of work and a light heart, letting go of judgments, and some patience and compassion. But it can be done.

Questions like what is god or what is truth, or how can be be the best human being are good beginning for an investigation.

Nirmala

[Barry]

Thanks for chiming in again, Nirmala! Your words conveyed a lovely sense of grace, of trusting in the divine...

Anybody else, especially you lurkers (if you are not familiar with the term please click on that link!) care to join the discussion? Please share what's rings true for you!

To all the seekers out there. There are more alternatives than the eternalist option such as going to heaven forever or the nihilistic option where we are reduced to atoms or nothing. There is the Middle Way....

[nurturetruth]

Thanks Nirmala !

Perhaps consciousness, not matter, is the foundation of everything that is.

To all the seekers out there. There are more alternatives than the eternalist option such as going to heaven forever or the nilistic option where we are reduced to atoms or nothing. There is the Middle Way.

And yes, how we live our lives is very important, to be the best we can be and do the best we can do and do unto others as we would have others do to us. Once, we live in an ethical way then we can learn to develop our minds and realize some calm and tranquility. Then with the mind concentrated we can realize some wisdom. It takes a lot of work and a light heart, letting go of judgments, and some patience and compassion. But it can be done.

Questions like what is god or what is truth, or how can be be the best human being are good beginning for an investigation.

Nirmala

[Diablo]

Questions like what is god or what is truth, or how can be be the best human being are good beginning for an investigation.

Nirmala

BARRY IS GOD!

it finally came to me.
BARRY IS GOD!

Barry has set up this little paradise for us all, called WaccoBB
he watches over us 24 hours a day.
he follows me when I am reading a thread, he notes how long I am online and how long I am away from my Wacco friends.
he's always there for me
BARRY IS GOD!
he protects us from evil, for he will ban any one who doesn't say what he wants us to hear, but he still makes sure that all his GOOD friends get to say what they want
he tries to make us feel good with his support
he writes:"I like your beautiful post" or "thanks for chiming in"

Barry ALWAYS tells the truth.
BARRY IS GOD!

I feel safe, because BARRY IS GOD!
he can delete us from temptation

so have some courtesy
have some sympathy
use all your politesse
for he can lay your soul to waste

BARRY *IS* GOD

[Sonomamark]

Uh...WHAT evidence? And please, don't cite that cobbled-together, many-times edited for completely political purposes collection of ancient superstition, "the bible". That's not evidence. it's not even history. It's just self-serving narrative written by guys who wanted to justify their behavior.

Beyond that, let's say for argument's sake that what you say actually happened. Even if this dead guy rose, the most likely explanation is that he wasn't really dead--just comatose. Happened all the time until modern medicine figured out how to make sure people were dead. And he's surely dead again by now. But even if not: what possible difference could Zombie Jesus of the Living Dead having staggered up out of the Big Black two thousand years ago make to our modern lives?

To believe that kind of event makes any difference, you have to believe in original sin and a bunch of other pretty...well, fringe-y stuff, from a rational standpoint. And I don't. So: Zombie Jesus lurches from the grave: what difference does it make to me? None at all.

Sounds like your idea of "reasonable intelligence" could use some calibration.

And here I thought I had merely used a reasonable intelligence to follow credible evidence and overcome a lifetime of training in atheism/agnosticism to independently arrive at the conclusion that Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again.

[Dixon]

Hey, Roble;

Regarding your recent post on this thread which was apparently deleted from the site: While I cannot endorse your rather juvenile use of shock and gross-out as a constructive response to a controversy, I must admit I got a hearty laugh out of it.

However, I must object to your use of the term "horny gutter slut" as a pejorative. If you're so afflicted with prudishness that you think being horny or a slut is bad, you haven't entirely purged yourself of the shame-based religious values you ridicule.

Atheist blessings!

Dixon

[Valley Oak]

Dixon,

I agree with your razor sharp observation.

And that was not the only one of my submissions that was censored.

Edward

Hey, Roble;

Regarding your recent post on this thread which was apparently deleted from the site: While I cannot endorse your rather juvenile use of shock and gross-out as a constructive response to a controversy, I must admit I got a hearty laugh out of it.

However, I must object to your use of the term "horny gutter slut" as a pejorative. If you're so afflicted with prudishness that you think being horny or a slut is bad, you haven't entirely purged yourself of the shame-based religious values you ridicule.

Atheist blessings!

Dixon

[Tars]

And that was not the only one of my submissions that was censored.

I've had a post censored as well - at least one, I haven't been counting. Maybe others were edited, I'm not sure. No namecalling involved, no hate spew. But still deletion. Possibly it's a political-correctness thing, like in China. It makes me very unhappy when that happens.

[GiGi]

you see, there must be a GOD then,
for only GOD knows what is right or wrong..................

GiGi

ps,

if you haven't been censored yet, you haven't had anything to say!
right Barry?!

I've had a post censored as well - at least one, I haven't been counting. Maybe others were edited, I'm not sure. No namecalling involved, no hate spew. But still deletion. Possibly it's a political-correctness thing, like in China. It makes me very unhappy when that happens.

[paulrankin]

what was the question Rodney King asked?

Rodney King asked a profound question. Profound because it can be applied so widely.

Tars

[Dixon]

you see, there must be a GOD then,
for only GOD knows what is right or wrong.

I suppose it would be pointless to explicate the obvious fallaciousness of that "logic"; those who don't already see it probably don't want to.

Anyway, I suspect "GiGi" posted it not to make a reasoned argument, but to try to stir up a little tempest. Something smells funny here; smells like a giant prick. GiGi, follow God's commandment "Thou shalt not lie" and tell us--Are you ThePhiant?

Dixon