seeking those who appreciate the Knowledge.

[sheindel jane]

hi. i'm seeking those who practice or aspire to practice the knowledge of guru maharaj ji or prem rawat for satsang, group meditation and/or fellowship.

any ol time "premies" in these parts?

jane
707-869-3499

[Dixon]

Yeah, Maharaj Ji AKA Prem Rawat doesn't have enough Rolls-Royces; he needs your money, too! Here's a good deal for you: Find out how much he charges for "enlightenment" and I'll give it to you for half price :D

A brief description of him with links to organizations of former devotees is at Sarlo's Guru Rating Service at:
https://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/RatingsD.htm#maharj

Sarlo gives him a rating of half a bud (the second lowest rating possible), which means "bogus, may have some value, who knows".

Here's the description of him from that page:

"At age 8 made head of Divine Light Mission on death of founder father. Lawsuit against mother to settle who was true Lord of Universe (he lost but got to keep his green card). Megabuck lifestyle. New org called Elan Vital – Ooops, that's gone. Now repackaged as Prem Rawat, corporate image, Rolls-Royce-like logo. Many anti sites hassled by lawyers and hacked, main one survives full of authoritative stories from ex-members. Seems to have no substance, but benefit of doubt.* See also Sat Pal (his politician brother)"

["Mad" Miles]

Yo Dixon! I wasn't aware of the Sarlo site. Thank you! I now have it bookmarked under "Standard References".

Back in 1979 my buddies, who were also my "illicit merchandise" connection, suggested starting a new religion so that we could live the easy life while exploiting our followers. He was a mathematician and she a sociologist and I was a social theorist and political activist/organizer. So we had all the chops needed to make a go of it.

I don't regret turning down the opportunity (he was only half kidding) but if I hadn't, who knows, maybe we could have made Sarlo's list!!!

"Mad" Miles

:swami:

[Dixon]

Hi Miles!

I too have felt the temptation to try the guru trip. Heaven knows it could only improve my finances as well as my sex life. I have a good understanding of the kinds of ideas and images credulous seekers will buy (thanks partly to Wacco's constant presentation of such product), and could probably pull it off lucratively, except for two little problems: I'm insufficiently greedy, and too honest.

Blessings on you, my son;

Swami Hotshitananda

[sheindel jane]

i get it. have seen plenty of abuse of "spiritual" power.

have been tempted to abuse it myself, seen so much of it.

was married to a swami, transpersonal psychologist, phd from berkeley, acolyte of swami rama.

there are so many rackets.

prem rawat, aka guru maharj ji never charges for his satsang gatherings.
he lives by donation. i hanker for that kind of wealth at times. he's also involved in charities, does what the seva foundation (wavy gravy, ram das) offers in india and elsewhere.

but this guy actually was involved somehow in an amazing learning experience for me, back in the day and still.

don't expect anyone else to understand or want that.

just wondered if anyone around here has had this experience with this teacher. ?

sheindel jane

[mykil]

Dearest Jane; Please pay no attention to the peanut gallery, they specialize in stomping on peoples dreams. Trying to defraud what ever anyone thinks, This is just like clock work. I really don't think they get it! Please don't let them chase away your dreams and bring you down! PEACE and drop by and see me, I miss you something awful!!!

[Dixon]

Yo, Sheindel Jane;

Let me make it clear that I have no gripe with you whatsoever. You sound like a pleasant and reasonable person. And if whatever you get from this guru is worth your investment of time/money/whatever, more power to you.

I may, however, have a gripe with the guru himself. Certainly a lot of former "premies" do, as witness the various "anti" sites. I don't trust "spiritual" masters who seem to be all about accumulating money and power, as that seems antithetical to anything I would call spiritual. And if Maharaj Ji/Prem Rawat/whatever-his-latest-brand-name-is attracts donations through claims of having some special cosmic status or superpowers, as I suspect he does, I think he oughta be in jail for fraud (unless of course he can prove his claims).

Really, the spiritual "master" trip has never been for me, as it seems irresponsible to turn over my responsibility to make my own judgments to some "master", no matter how fantastic they may seem to be. Call me old-fashioned, but I think the dominance-and-submission trip should stay in the bedroom where it belongs. I do, however, affirm everyone's right to freely choose devotion to some guru, which may work very well for some folks.

Again, no gripe with you.

All blessings on ya!

Dixon

[Dixon]

Hi, Mykil;

Since I'm apparently one of the "peanut gallery' you refer to, I'll respond briefly to your attack.

"...they specialize in stomping on peoples dreams."

This makes me sound like a real mean-spirited ogre, Mykil. Do I really deserve that? Note that you're making very insulting implications about my motivations, without actually having asked me about them first. I experience myself as trying to engage people in dialogues which will help all of us (myself included) get better approximations of truth by having our mistaken beliefs corrected. This entails challenging each other's cherished beliefs. Open-minded people appreciate that, while those who are closed-minded and rigidly defended might see it as "stomping on peoples dreams". Could this be where you're coming from? Could it be that taking me seriously feels too threatening to you because some of my arguments challenge beliefs that are important to you, so you're trying to dismiss me as some kind of asshole so you can kid yourself that my arguments are invalid? If so, that's a logical fallacy known as an ad hominem attack. Such fallacious personal attacks are effective in defending rigidly held beliefs, but have the disadvantage of rendering us uncorrectable, and of hurting those we attack.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would derive joy from "stomping on peoples dreams", though I do insist that when we confuse dreams with objective reality, problems ensue. If my ongoing effort to disabuse us all (including myself) of our illusions is so traumatic to you that it feels like stomping on your dreams, are you willing to consider the possibility that your distress is a measure of your rigid defensiveness around your cherished beliefs? And wouldn't it be nicer to just politely refrain from engaging with me rather than to fallaciously attempt to invalidate me with hurtful ad hominem attacks?

"...Trying to defraud what ever anyone thinks..."

Mykil, if I'm correctly deciphering your idiosyncratic use of the word "defraud", it sounds like you're saying that I automatically disagree with everyone about everything just to be contrary. There are two problems here: 1. If you assume I'm just trying to be contrary, you're making an unnecessarily negative, insulting assumption about my motivations, when you really haven't ruled out more positive, non-insulting motivations. 2. Somehow you've ignored the many times I've expressed agreement with others. Your characterization of me as someone who is all about disagreeing with others is such a distortion of my behaviors, behaviors you yourself have witnessed, that I can only wonder what motivates you to distort my image into such a monstrous one, and that brings me back to the hypothesis that these are ad hominem attacks based on your rigid closed-mindedness.

"I really don't think they get it!"

Mykil, if there's something you'd like me to "get", simply specify what it is and make a convincing case for it. As you haven't yet done that, or even tried, it's really unfair for you to complain that I don't get it, isn't it?

"Please don't let them chase away your dreams and bring you down!"

Translation: Don't be open-minded; don't open yourself to the possibility that any of your beliefs could be mistaken. Stay stuck in them.

Dream on!
Dixon the dream-stomping ogre--grrrrrrr!

[mykil]

Dixon; Sorry if I pushed you over the edge there dude; In one man's opinon you deserved it. This isn't the debate department. You are a talented gifted man, but by far that was the rudest post you ever made. Thank you for the soft felt appology toward the lady! I did think up that bumper sticker just for you dude. egos erode evolution! love you and peace is more than just a word!

[mykil]

Hey there Jane; Welcome to Sonoma County! This is a great site I referred you to, there are a few people with very strong opinions around, and they aren’t afraid to share them. All-in-All this is the greatest site in the county for all your community needs. Please don’t let your first post be your last. I enjoyed meeting you and hope you drop by once again so we may get to know each other better. BTW it really isn't this cold here either!

hi. i'm seeking those who practice or aspire to practice the knowledge of guru maharaj ji or prem rawat for satsang, group meditation and/or fellowship.

any ol time "premies" in these parts?

jane
707-869-3499

[Lorrie]

Yo, Sheindel Jane;

Let me make it clear that I have no gripe with you whatsoever. You sound like a pleasant and reasonable person. And if whatever you get from this guru is worth your investment of time/money/whatever, more power to you.

I may, however, have a gripe with the guru himself. Certainly a lot of former "premies" do, as witness the various "anti" sites. I don't trust "spiritual" masters who seem to be all about accumulating money and power, as that seems antithetical to anything I would call spiritual. And if Maharaj Ji/Prem Rawat/whatever-his-latest-brand-name-is attracts donations through claims of having some special cosmic status or superpowers, as I suspect he does, I think he oughta be in jail for fraud (unless of course he can prove his claims).

Really, the spiritual "master" trip has never been for me, as it seems irresponsible to turn over my responsibility to make my own judgments to some "master", no matter how fantastic they may seem to be. Call me old-fashioned, but I think the dominance-and-submission trip should stay in the bedroom where it belongs. I do, however, affirm everyone's right to freely choose devotion to some guru, which may work very well for some folks.

Again, no gripe with you.

All blessings on ya!

Dixon

Dixon why would you write a lot of stuff in your defense of stuff then sign your bit with What Mykil called you? Doesn't that make you who you are by signing that?

[Dixon]

Dixon; Sorry if I pushed you over the edge there dude; In one man's opinon you deserved it. This isn't the debate department. You are a talented gifted man, but by far that was the rudest post you ever made. Thank you for the soft felt appology toward the lady! I did think up that bumper sticker just for you dude. egos erode evolution! love you and peace is more than just a word!

Mykil;

Interesting to see how polite this email from you is, in contrast to the rather nastier one you sent me privately on the same subject just 6 minutes before you sent this one! People may not always like what I say, but at least I criticize them publicly for all to see rather than sniping at people privately and then presenting a politer face publicly.

If you think it's rude for me to poke fun at a guy who's become filthy rich by bilking sincere spiritual seekers with highly dubious claims (or do you think he really is Lord of the Universe?), all I can say is that that's your problem.

Clarification: I didn't "apologize" to Sheindel Jane, as there was nothing to apologize for; I hadn't insulted her in the first place. I did attempt to clarify my position so as not to hurt her feelings through misunderstanding.

It's nice that you're concerned for her well-being, Mykil. I'm sure you'll be relieved to find that she wasn't hurt at all by my postings. She privately sent me several friendly, warm emails in which she agreed with me while still asserting that she got something of value from her association with this guru. I find her eminently reasonable and pleasant.

Re: your admission that your "Egos erode evolution" bumper sticker is a dig at me--thanks for becoming honest enough to criticize me more directly and a bit less passive-aggressively. I think the slogan is clever and true, though I don't see how it applies to me any more than to you or anyone else. If you think I have an ego problem, you may be right, who knows? I look forward to getting together with you so you can clarify what you mean by that and show me that it's true, or else we can discover that it's not true and you can think better of me, which would be nice. One question I would like clarified is "Would it be possible for me to express ideas you don't like intelligently and articulately without being seen as ego-tripping? And if so, how?"

Thanks for attempting to communicate.

Peace, Love and Reason;
Dixon the Dream-Stomping Ego-Tripper : D

[mykil]

I wouldn't express the way I really felt on public forum Dix; I was rather upset at you that is for sure! As far as you tring your best to draw me into your world don't, you read on the average ONE big book per day. There is no need to belittle me now is there. We all know hiow smart you are. Just now that I was upset at you and I am getting over it. No need to bring it further yes?

[Dixon]

Dixon why would you write a lot of stuff in your defense of stuff then sign your bit with What Mykil called you? Doesn't that make you who you are by signing that?

Hi, Lorrie!

Do you mean my signing a previous response to Mykil as "Dixon the dream-stomping ogre"? I thought it was obvious that I was joking (partly as a way to assuage my hurt feelings from being demonized by Mykil).

Luv;
Dixon the sincere seeker

[mykil]

Dixon your cracking me up dude; WHO ARE YOU, you sign your name differant everytime. are you:
Dixon the Dream-Stomping Ego-Tripper : D
Dixon the sincere seeker
Dixon the dream-stomping ogre--grrrrrrr!
Blessings on you, my son; Swami Hotshitananda

LMAO and this is just one post!!! GEEZ Dix, choose a one and stick woith it already!!! PEACE BROTHER

[Lorrie]

Party pooper MYKIL!!!

I wouldn't express the way I really felt on public forum Dix; I was rather upset at you that is for sure! As far as you tring your best to draw me into your world don't, you read on the average ONE big book per day. There is no need to belittle me now is there. We all know hiow smart you are. Just now that I was upset at you and I am getting over it. No need to bring it further yes?

[Barry]

I'm moving this to the WaccoTalk category...