What The Secret means to me...

[Dixon]

Sara, this is so true!

Misunderstanding of probabilities is one of the most common sources of belief in things like omens, creationism, psychic powers, and "God's master plan".

People think that if some juxtaposition of events is extremely unlikely to be by chance, then it NEVER could happen by chance, so they posit supernatural explanations. But a one in a trillion chance is just that--a one in a trillion chance, and on a planet of six-billion-plus sentients, such rare coincidences will occur regularly without really implying some underlying significance.

(Whether people whose emotional, social and/or financial needs are met by the resulting beliefs will have any interest in correcting their misunderstandings of probability is another matter).

Another source of confusion is the common assumption that the patterns we see must imply some underlying plan, creator, purpose or force, because pattern (order) could not arise spontaneously from randomness. But randomness and order, like other yin/yang polarities, are reciprocally co-creating, arising phoenix-like from one another constantly. For instance, the outcome of a large number of dice throws, with each individual outcome random, predictably produces a lovely symmetrical curve.

As I say in my poem "Mama Chaos":

"Inhale, it’s chaos.
Exhale, it’s order.
Things fall together...
...coincidence effervesces --
randomness relaxing into order, then back again..."

etc, etc......

I guess that's enough preaching for now.

Blessings;

Dixon

Is it just a coincidence that the following was delanceyplace.com's daily quote on May14?:
In today's excerpt--chance occurrences and
probability:



"[In chance occurrences] we find the basis for
superstition. A 'chance occurrence' occurs. Not
knowing the odds behind it, we marvel. Now, really,
what are the odds? Surely too tiny for chance!



"Alan Guth, a physicist at MIT, described an example
from his own family of how easily we turn the random
into an omen. An uncle of his, who'd lived alone, had
been found dead in his home, and a policeman had
come to deliver the bad news to Guth's mother. While
the officer was there, Guth's sister, who was traveling
on business, happened to call. 'My mother and sister
were both shocked at the timing of the call, that it
coincided with the policeman's visit, and the news of
my uncle's death,' said Guth. 'They thought that there
had to be something telepathic about it.' When Guth
heard from his mother of this miraculous instance of
kin-based telecommunion, he couldn't help but do
some
quick calculations. As a rule, his sister phoned their
mother about once a week. She tended to call either
first thing in the morning or in the evening, when she
had a moment and when her mother was likeliest to
be around. The policeman had arrived at his mother's
house at about 5:00 p.m., and, because there were
several solemn orders of business to discuss, his
visit had lasted more than an hour, possibly two. All
factors considered, Guth said to me, the odds of his
sister calling while the policeman was on-site were
[not especially low mathematically].



"The more one knows about probabilities, the less
amazing ... coincidences become. ...
John Littlewood, a renowned mathematician at the
University of Cambridge, formalized the apparent
intrusion of the supernatural into ordinary life as a kind
of natural law, which he called 'Littlewood's Law of
Miracles.' He defined a miracle as many people
might: a one-in-a-million event to which we accord
real
significance when it occurs. By his law, such miracles
arise in anyone's life at an average of once a month.
Here's how Littlewood explained it: You are out and
about and barraged by the world for some eight hours
a day. You see and hear things happening at a rate of
maybe one per second, amounting to 30,000 or so
events a day, or a million a month. The vast majority of
events you barely notice, but every so often, from the
great streams of happenings, you are treated to a
marvel: the pianist at the bar starts playing a song
you'd just been thinking of, or you pass the window of
a pawnshop and see the heirloom ring that had been
stolen from your apartment eighteen months ago.
Yes, life is full of miracles, minor, major, middling C.
It's called 'not being in a persistent vegetative state'
and
'having a life span longer than a click beetles.'


Natalie Angier, The Canon, Houghton Mifflin,
2006, pp.

[decterlove]

This is truly a rather fascination thread of observations, honest revelations, and counter-arguments. What I'm most struck by is that taken as a whole one gets not only a wide spectrum of opinions, some with strong emotional content, but also a wide spectrum of ways to be in the world.

I would posit that for further investigative purposes, that we envision the scientific world viewers on the left side and the "mystical believers" on the right side. Doing so, from my vantage point, I observe several things. One, I find that on the extreme left, that the rationalist contributions tend to become very hardened, cynical and angry in regard to the subject at hand as well as often perhaps to life in general. In my opinion, this is not an optimal way to live in the world. In it's furthest extreme, well beyond the participants of this forum hopefully, we might get "scientists" who are completely able to detach and even torture animals, or humans, create and create weaponry, etc without any regard whatsoever for the experiential suffering they are helping to inflict on other forms of life...ie...an extremely rational approach to life entirely devoid of feeling, "Spirit" and compassion.

Two, I observe that on the extreme right, one finds people very willing to suspend all rationality in favor of engaging in novel or exotic thoughts, rituals, and behaviors, and that approach life in sort of a childlike fashion. Many people who fall into this camp in my observation have a hard time dealing with real world necessities and responsibilities, but do seem to enjoy life between the self-inflicted crisis. There is a kind of softness, or flimsiness in a way to their thinking and their ability to deal with life in the "real" world." In the farthest extreme though this might be linked to a complete disengagement from reality...ie...some sort of mental illness and loss of practical coping skills.

More towards the middle however, you find two much more healthy orientations. On the "healthy" left side, you find a scientific, rationalist inquiry to living that includes curiosity, discipline, wonder, maturity, practicality, skillfulness, perseverance, reserve, and healthy skepticism as well as an genuine enthusiasm for investigating life in all it's mystery. This approach, however, tends to devalue somewhat the subtlety and depth of feelings, impulses, and perhaps to some extent, intuitions, and it is certainly more interested in the practicalities of the material world than the complexities, murkiness and speculativeness of the emotional/spiritual realm. It is very much a male orientation, as well, to living.

On the "healthy" right side, you find less interest and reverence for logical thinking and rationality, and more inclination to jump to solutions or actions that feel right and are inclusive, sensitive and respectful in the immediate sense to other people's needs and "getting the job done." The degree of wonder and reverence in these individuals often invokes a search for some sort of transcendence to matter and a willingness to sacrifice pure reason and rationality in favor of what feels right and what supports the larger web of life in the most optimal manner. This, of course, does correspond to a more female way of being in the world as well, and Oprah certainly does fall into this category!

So this "conflict" to me becomes a perfect example of just one more "stuck in duality" dilemma of Post-Modern living. The list is endless.....Male/Female, East/West, Communism/Capitalism, Allopathic/Homeopathic, Spiritual/Material, Christianity/Muslim, Gay/Straight, Abortion/Pro Life, Democrat/Republican, Conservative/Radical, etc etc ad infinatum.....

Isn't it time that we begin to suspect that the Truth may not simply to be found in, but is to be VIGOROUSLY SEARCHED FOR in the MIDDLE? Isn't that what the modern existential crisis is really demanding? We can all decide some of the above conflicts, clearly in a favor of one side or the other. Some of us may insist that "Yes, definitely, a woman's choice in regard to her own body is to be much more valued than the life of a fetus." And you can take any example from the above dichotomies and come with your own similar personal preference. But with the number of conflicts now in the world involving every single facet of our personal life and our larger political life isn't it conceivable that just for a moment we might take off our caps that advertise our favorite team and ponder.....Why is there SO MUCH DISAGREEMENT AND WHERE IS THE REAL TRUTH TO BE FOUND IN SUCH A SWARM OF TURMOIL?

Science certainly hold a place of deserved reverence in modern man's quest to find meaning and make sense of the world around him. But doesn't science, itself contain and demand a component of faith? Each step quantum physics takes for example towards a Unified Field Theory, etc. seems to reveal a layer underneath that was previously UNIMAGINABLE that is even more complex and illusive that the previous one. Aren't scientists practicing Faith in believing that ultimately Science in it's current modern investigative form will provide ALL THE ANSWERS TO MAN'S DEEPEST QUESTIONS ABOUT LIFE? Even the great evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, admitted on the Charlie Rose show, "The next real frontier is the Mind and we don't yet really have a clue yet about the Mind's real nature." (not an exact quote, but the essence of it...)

[Braggi]

Science certainly hold a place of deserved reverence in modern man's quest to find meaning and make sense of the world around him. But doesn't science, itself contain and demand a component of faith?

Decterlove, I enjoy your posts and would love to spend some days talking over all these things with you. I agree with you in spirit in so many things and disagree with you in fact over many others. I'll tackle this one issue with you here.

The short answer is: no. Science is the antithesis of faith. Science, to be practical, requires many assumptions, yet, the essence of science is that those assumptions are constantly being challenged and the data constantly being updated and, hopefully, improved. Even that process involves many missteps and errors, yet understanding and knowledge are always growing. Science is like a vast jigsaw puzzle with most of the pieces missing or obscured. Scientists are valliantly trying to make sense of the pieces we "know" and fill in the blanks with what we supppose (and assume). Perhaps the greatest challenge to science is dogma yet dogma is the very basis for so many "faiths."

[decterlove]

Decterlove, I enjoy your posts and would love to spend some days talking over all these things with you. I agree with you in spirit in so many things and disagree with you in fact over many others. I'll tackle this one issue with you here. ...

Thanks for your compliment and indeed I'd love to meet any of the interesting people who post and respond here for a cup of non-dogmatic tea outside the realm of West County cyberspace....

Let me point you back again to the main contention of my above post which is that we should begin to look in the cracks and the dmz's for the deepest truth in regard to these huge, monolithic conflicts human beings are now fully immersed in....your following sentence is a yellow flag to me that there is more to be discovered.....

"The short answer is: no. Science is the antithesis of faith."

If science is indeed the antithesis of faith....then like all opposites it very likely contains elements of the very thing it is opposed to. I don't make this statement to sound "cosmic" but instead out of sincere evaluation that stems in part from observing all the various and often highly contradictory, political platforms that have sprung up in America since the civil rights movement of the early Sixties. Quoting Buffalo Springfield, "Nobody's right if everybody's wrong!'

Many scientists, from an "outsiders" perspective, seem to embrace science as a cosmology, and as a way to manage the larger existential pressures we are all subject to as biological (and/or spiritual?) organisms. And they may very well initially choose this worldview in agreement, or in reaction to, the ideas and home environment they were brought up with, much the same as many individuals become Democrats or Republicans due to family influences they are exposed to.

From an "objective" and again outsiders point of view, there, at times, seems to be a vehemence/dogma that is generated in defending the "framework of ideas" or world view, scientists have gathered that "comfort" them in their own struggle with the deeper fears and mysteries we face as human beings. This foundation for this vehemence (or dogma) could be considered merely intellectual, or it could be considered to have a strong underlying emotional component.

Science, to be practical, requires many assumptions, yet, the essence of science is that those assumptions are constantly being challenged and the data constantly being updated and, hopefully, improved.

Scientists seem to me equally, or at least near equally, just as prone to dogma and clinging to past structures, as any religious personality. Look at the nature of the struggle many scientists (Einstein, for example) have faced when presenting new groundbreaking theories to the general scientific community. They almost always face scorn, ridicule, and condemnation until they are able to provide incontrovertible truth that indeed their fully investigated "intuitive leaps" are indeed correct. The key point here is that the resistence from other scientists is MORE EMOTIONALLY BASED ON THE EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO CHANGING "REALITIES" THAN SIMPLY A COOL DETACHED PURELY ACADEMIC SKEPTICISM.

The often hidden factor, the looming elephant in the living room so to speak, in any debate between the merits of science and religion is the mortality of human beings. Scientists often discount religious faith as providing a false childlike comfort to the individual in facing death. I believe that many scientists find that their world view and denial of any sort of existence after our biological form dissipates, actually provides a sort of tragic but heroic, stable framework which is equally comforting to the scientific personality. What humans truly fear the most is UNCERTAINTY oddly enough, maybe even more than concepts of eternal damnation and punishment! Science offers the scientist A KIND OF FAITH.

Scientists are valiantly trying to make sense of the pieces we "know" and fill in the blanks with what we suppose (and assume). Perhaps the greatest challenge to science is dogma yet dogma is the very basis for so many "faiths."

Let me suggest in closing that yes, scientists are valiant and heroic, deserving our respect and admiration in their search for Truth, but their greatest achievement yet may lie in overcoming their own tendency towards scientific dogma.

[Rich]

faith (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof(2) : complete trust
scientific method
Function: noun
: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.
Science and the scientific method has nothing to do with faith. It is a process used to systematically challenge previous assumptions and theories and build upon our body of knowledge.
A scientist who defends his or her theory from competing theories is not engaging in faith or dogma but reasoned argument.A vehement argument is not a bad thing if based on solid evidence. If someone is arguing against very solid evidence he or she should be able to produce evidence equally solid to counter.
The scientific method is not for "insiders"; it is not "cosmology". It is a useful tool that we would all benefit from really using.
Assumptions are not faith, but must be tested and supported. Hypothoses are subject to double blind studies to help eliminate bias and peer reviewed further before published as Theory. This sceptisism is a good thing. It protects us from the unscrupulous and the careless.
Some scientific discoveries have been "inspired", however, before gaining credence they were tested and peer reviewed.
"Firm belief in something for which there is no proof"... Is it wrong? Not always. But there is higher probability for error than that tested with the scientific method. Is there "bad" science? Yes, but that is why the method has proven effective to correct them.Do politics play a part? In anything people do, relationships and power come into play.
I do not think that science is the ONLY legitimate way of knowing, but it is pretty darn good.
One thing I do know: science is not "sort of faith" simply because "opposites often share charactaristics". Opposites do exist. Black is not white, facism is not communism, hot is not cold...science is not faith
I forgot his name, but a Evolutionary biologist recently said, "I cannot prove God does not exist, but I can tell you that the probability is very, very, very low."
Science deals in probabilities and methods of thought striving toward truths. Faith deals in absolutes with little or no proof. Which one is more subject to abuse? Science helped free us from the Tyranny of the Church and gave birth to modern democracy. While far from perfect, it beats the hell outta Theocracy of any stripe.
Respectfully,
Rich

[Nemea Laessig]

I get the impression that many folks who talk about the "faith" and "dogma" of science haven't bothered to actually learn about science and the scientific method, so thanks for your clear explanation, Rich.

As to matters of life, death and spirituality I remain a firm agnostic pantheist, like my old granddad before me.

Cheers,
~Nemea

[decterlove]

By the way for further more in depth discussion of the Secret, mostly pro-Secret actually, check out:

https://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/...manifestation/

best site I've come across on the interesting, and indeed somewhat controversial subject! But perhaps this forum provides the most balanced view!

[Rich]

By the way for further more in depth discussion of the Secret, mostly pro-Secret actually, check out:

https://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/...manifestation/

best site I've come across on the interesting, and indeed somewhat controversial subject! But perhaps this forum provides the most balanced view!

Decterlove,
With all due respect I am digging in my heels and locking horns. I appreciate the link, but it is certainly not balanced. I found hardly any dissent or even rational discussion. It was rife with group think and self congratulatory drivel.
I find "The Secret" ridiculous and based in an insular reality that does not apply in most of the world (much less rational thought).
Example: Iraq, Darfur, Rwanda, Nicaragua, inner city Detroit.... There are amazing people there who put most americans and europeans to SHAME with desire and willingness to sacrifice and work hard for a mere living wage. Positive thinking? Try finding your bootstraps after the most powerful country in the world is destabilizing your political process, killing your leaders, blowing up your institutions for 20 years!
To base a belief system on one's ability to "manifest" in an extremely wealthy country and call it an "answer" is absurd. Go do that in Nicaragua with a business loan set @ 35-40%. In Iraq over 600,000 dead and untold maimed all around you and no clean water. Pick up your own body parts after losing them and rebuild your life afterwords.
"The Secret" itself is a rehashing of the "Power of Positive Thinking" from 1954. To call it new or secret is lying.
Fact: Really Bad sh** happens to really good people doing great things with good intentions and really good sh** happens to a**holes trying to f**k people over. Positive thinking is great but it won't turn a bullet or machete or stop your child from starving because you cannot find food...period. (remember the Ghost Dance and the bullet proof shirts? Good intentions...total fantasy...)
**On the other hand we can have a rational appoach to problems and even solve a few. It ain't gonna be from magic but from careful planning, meticulous execution, and you still might come up short. But we keep pressing on, because we are compelled to WORK to push back against the wrongs...
This is where we utilize the positive thinking, to get up and try again or if we got lucky, look around and see if we can't help someone else out just a little bit.
Sorry, I don't buy "the Secret". That movie is about self-serving greed, fantasy and cosmic justification thereof.

[Dixon]

Yeah, what he said.

Rich, that was entirely well-reasoned and so nicely articulated. I really appreciate that kind of thing.

Cheers!

Dixon

Decterlove,
With all due respect I am digging in my heels and locking horns. I appreciate the link, but it is certainly not balanced. I found hardly any dissent or even rational discussion. It was rife with group think and self congratulatory drivel. ...

[decterlove]

Dear Rich and other posters in agreement with,

Oddly enough, for the most part I agree with you and I posted the link really just as a further resource for people who are fully enamored, or perhaps fully deceived from your side of the argument, by the concepts presented in the Secret (to be referred to as LOA for the sake of brevity from here on...).

After I posted the link, I realized how much I appreciated the depth and discipline of the counterargument to LOA on Waccobb, and I agree in part with most of what you are saying, but I simply don't buy the Scientific Rational Reductionist Argument all the way either. I am a firm believer in a transcendent reality and this is where we do indeed lock horns. And I believe as long as we are fully committed to ignoring and dismissing this transcendent reality, we are going to be subject to the horrors of Darfur, Detroit and the many of miseries populating the world we now live in as we simply will never be fully empowered to access the real rotting roots of such human tragedies. (ie Spiritual in nature)

My own personal view of such a transcendent reality is in no way identical to the conceptual framework proposed in the Secret, however, I do believe the Secret may have some grain of validity, if only it could be challenged and articulated better and ultimately honed into a more precise and emcompassing set of tools. I believe some of the minds on Waccobb are capable of honing it in that direction if they were fully inspired and committed to doing so. And since it has been given such recent attention and play in the Media I think it makes a wonderful starting point to investigate further the abyss between Faith and Science and New Age Impulses vs Pure Scientific Rationalism.

I wrote a long response to Rich the other day regarding the nature and some of the overlapping qualities to Science and Faith but alas must as I was about to submit it some glitch occured and it was whisked away into the black hole of cyberspace forever. I do wish to respond to some of the ideas presented by the last few anti-LOA posters...but the demands of Time and Space indeed interfere with some of our higher (or lower! LOL) inclinations.

What I would like to suggest on behalf of both pro and con sides of LOA, is that a new thread be started that stays very specific to actual incidents and experiences in real time and space that individual Wb posters have experienced that might fall into the category of LOA. in this way, the scientific minds may indeed be able to offer a rational explanation for a particular incident, ie...statistical, etc. and the "mystical" minds, for lack of a truly better term at the moment, might be able to better assess and more clearly articulate all the various aspects that may have lead up to and contributed to a specific "manifestation" they were after. They (MMs vs SMs?) might also be more inclined to subtract some of their LOA explanations for any given incident as well as indeed an SM or two, might occasionally be inspired to admit that a particular incident truly stretches the ability for any rational scientific explanations to account for it. (my example of the washing machine in one of my above postings, perhaps, or was it just purely a statistical anomaly?)

I know this might just further irritate some anti LOA members and perhaps falsely encourage some pro LOA members but I think this issue like no other fully encompasses and demonstrates one of the central cultural collides we are immersed in at the moment and truly deserves a deeper observation and investigation. And indeed due to precisely your criticisms of the forum I posted a link to, that forum may be incapable of true inquiry into the subject, while the rough and tumble Wild West County Rugged Individualist Types on Wacco just might be able to tie down this Sacred Calf if they really applied their Holistic Minds to it.....

So Feedback Yes or No on the idea of a new thread would be acknowledged and appreciated. Or perhaps we're all better off just fully concentrating on the transcendent and life-affirming nature of the barbeque this weekend! (red onions, tofu, green tomatoes, and squash for those life affirmers firmly eschewing all flesh foods!)

[nurturetruth]

I can re-call being 5 or 6 years old when watching "E.T., Star Wars, Superman, Planet of the Apes". Life was soooo magical and as a child, I had faith /belief that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING as possible!

I remember running to the window after watching one of these shows, looking out..and seeing this magnificent piece of artwork this GREAT ARTIST had done. I looked at the blue sky, all the colors of life and beauty and wondered..."who-ever made all this beauty must be one incredible being or artist!!" ( my parents were not religious..so i was not exposed to the word or meaning of God until around 10)

But I too believe part of " The Secret" is being here NOW and finding simple joys in all the pleasures, wonders, amazing beauty LIFE has to offer.

In these times..anything is possible! New planets, new ideas, new thought patterns, and there is OPEN-NESS!

Opening of consciousness that is!

Regardless whether I agree with all that is presented in the movie "The Secret" (i already was aware of much that was in the movie..though WHAT THE BLEEP had more of an affect on me),

it has reached mainstream! whether on OPERA or Bill Maher or CNN.

And Birmingham Alabama just opened up a WHOLE FOODS!!

so..consciousness IS OPENING and AWAKENING!

Let us all continue to take time to enjoy being alive and feed ourselves healthy higher vibrations! Regardless of how we get there!!

Clancy, I completely agree with all of this, and that's why I don't think we need to believe the claptrap fairy tales offered by religion to be filled with wonder and joy. All we have to do is look up, look down, look around.

What are the odds that things should have been as they are? How beautiful it is! How rich and diverse and strange and exciting, a Universe filled with black holes and nebulae and dark energy and seahorses and slime molds and beehives and oaks shaking their leaves in the spring. Comets, auroras, bioluminescent jellyfish, waterfalls, painted deserts. Chocolate and wine. Sex and sunsets and sarsaparilla. Art. Armadillos. Asparagus. Tarantulas. Snow. Coral. Flamingos.

We don't need to play let's-pretend-we're-immortal to know the wonder of All This. We don't need to put our heads in the sand and spin lies in the face of the oncoming train of Death. We're here, in this extraordinary place, and maybe tomorrow we'll die. Look up to the Moon, down to the blade of grass. Catch a rainbow in a handful of beveled-glass light. Breathe the night filled with spring flowers. Dance. Cry a little. Run your life-roughened hands all over your body.

You're alive. No lies, now.

Live!

[decterlove]

Well Jeez, I better snag a real job pretty damn soon or I'm likely to be arrested for Cyber-loitering...the following is an extract of commentary from the first page of the Secret postings...please forgive my lack of credited to whom said whom and what said whatever and my license at shortening some of the comments. I'm really not trying to step on anybody's toes here but I am a relative newbie to Wacco and I wanted just for my own sake to create a brief synopsis (yeah right!) of what was really said on this post. I figured it somebody else might be interested in an "outline" of sorts as well. I won't do it again...I promise! Like I said I better get some real work coming in pretty damn soon...gotta an interview next Wednesday at least! Chow!


"It was infantile since in the video The Secret was used solely to satisfy infantile desires: the breathtaking necklace, the fast car, the stunning partner. Maybe those who hold The "Secret can ask for World Peace next
time, or some other urgent collective good?"

"The flashy parts of the movie may deal with material things, but I feel the bulk of the movie is about bringing life into balance. We can do counseling, therapy,and on and on, which is all good, but in the end we have to allow our good to manifest through us. This process is helped and speeded up by applying the principles in The Secret."

"This kind of thing just reinforces my belief that most of what gets called "spirituality" is money-grubbing, self-serving infantile BS. The more displays of such "spirituality" I see, the happier I am to be a rationalistic, skeptical atheist."

"I too perceive much marketing and hype in the spiritual component of the mass media stream we are all subject too, here on wacco as well as in other venues. Yet, I can imagine that even the rev. billy graham and other
televangelists provide a real value to those who are touched by their diatribes.

"I tend to think that there is an element of luck involved: meeting with the right crisis that takes courage to confront, and that sets one on a path of singing since there is no alternative anymore."

"I also met the right crisis, way back when I was eleven years old. And somehow over the next few years I was able to see my personal pain in a bigger, almost cosmic context. Looking back at it there seems to have been no rational ground for this, almost like being touched by grace."

"I find that that Americans--particularly those raised in an affluent context--are especially prone to this kind of delusional seeking. In my experience, most people from other societies have a far less "epic" sense of
themselves and their lives, and are therefore less resentful and disappointed, and less prone to chase castles in the air which they believe will make their lives a perfect dream."

"Strange to say, people are buying it. Therapists tell me they're starting to see clients who are headed for real trouble, immersing themselves in a dream world in which good things just come. The therapists obviously
ought to visualize smarter clients. My sister says I'm over-intellectualizing. She, after all, had manifested a fine leather satchel. And I have to admit, if there were designer leather goods to be had out of this, I was interested."

"While I'm all for healthy skepticism, I think we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. From what I gather, the 'secret' isn't that you just believe and whatever you want is automatically gifted to you, it's
that you affirm and allow for the possibility of what you want and thus it's far more likely to happen than otherwise, but you still have to try."

"This is not my idea of spirituality, infact it is almost the opposite. Greed is not spiritual. One of the most spiritual activities is to live in a way that leaves plenty left over for other people, animals, and plants."

"I do see a neutral ground. I learned thirty years ago that I was more likely to find what I was looking for, than what I'm not looking for. If that is all the "Secret" means, then cool. Much of the Social Theory / Political Philosophy that I devoted my twenties and early thirties to were schools of thought that primarily engaged in the critique of what was often called "Western Reason". So Reason as the be all and end all of "proper" thinking is a highly contested ground."

"What people do is rarely determined by what is "reasonable". Self-interest, habit, preconceived modes of thinking and acting handed down from previous generations, in short the irrational, have as much, if not more,
to do with human behaviour as any semblance of rational thought. That understanding is the beginning of rational discourse about the social and personal."

"The Secret isn't spiritual, it's New Age greed. Spiritual teachings are about letting go/surrender/renouncing greed and hatred. This twisted metaphysical teaching doesn't recognize that happiness does not come from getting everything we want. It comes from a balanced acceptance of all life's ups and downs, not allowing difficulties to totally overwhelm us or joys to make us arrogant and overly exhuberant."

"The Secret isn't spiritual, it's new age greed."
"There are two issues here that are being collapsed: The "technology" of manifestation AND What you choose to do with it.

Regarding the technology of manifestation, I think it's on the money, as it were. Sure, it's not precise, "do exactly this and exactly that happens, every time" or maybe it is... The do "exactly this" is the tricky part.
The Secret stacks the deck for something to manifest."

"I'm thinking the "Secret" would be useful for people who have suffered from believing parents, teachers or society who told them they're not smart enough, good enough, motivated enough or spiritual enough to flourish
in this life, and that there's something spiritual about suffering."

"I don't see the universe giving or taking anything from us. To use Biblical language, everyone "reaps what they sow." Our thoughts become words and our words become deeds. We can stop/let go of negative self talk that
often comes from deeply held unconscious habits and beliefs whether these are conscious, unconscious or semi-conscious. We can make a choice to live ethically without harming ourselves or others. Whatever energy we
give out to the world via thought, word and actio comes back to us when the conditions are right for that cause of ripen."

"Who invented "Live simply so that others may simply live?" Is it true? Is that part of The Secret? Or antithetical to The Secret? Is this a universe of unlimited abundance, or is there a limited supply that we

have to protect by denying ourselves our "greed?" Bill Gates has made many billions of dollars. Is he greedy, selfish, non-spiritual? He is using the money, and attracting other money like his, to change the face of
disease and death among children in Africa and other places. Does the universe judge or congratulate him? I would suggest that his ability to amass fortunes has contributed to the abundance of others in incalculable
ways."

"I find the best answer to those that see the show as having something to do with greed, or being simplistic or infantile is to see the results this movie has in real people's lives; the way it gives some people a big "aha" about their lives therefore a new perspective and ability to make new choices and move forward from where they were stuck."

"I saw the movie again last night with a group and one person I talked to said she saw the movie last year and took the advice she heard from Bob Proctor; she consolidated her debt into a loan that is automatically paid
each month so she no longer thinks about the debt, and focuses on her freedom to create not only a debt-free life, but life with the freedom she desires."

"My big problem with LOA and similar belief systems is that the reasonable conclusion, based on the claims of these systems, is that anyone who is suffering in any way, is poor, is oppressed, basically anyone whose life
is fucked, has simply not thought long and hard enough to escape their suffering, and "manifest" a better life for themselves."

"Essentially the Practico-Inert is everything around you that you cannot control, by your thinking, your perception, your actions. You can't turn a rock into a loaf of bread, no matter how hard you concentrate. And
please don't tell me that if you break that rock up, fertilize and water the resulting soil and grow some wheat in it, etc. you can turn that rock into bread. Yeah, in that way you can but it takes more than just "intention" to commit that miracle."

"Other examples of the Practico-Inert are: Fixed social roles that stubbornly refuse to change, even with generations of effort to transform them. Social roles such as: Master/Slave, Male/Female, Insider/Outsider, Self/Other. We seem to be able to reinterpret them, mess with them, and rail against them, but so far they haven't gone away."

"Nowhere I have experienced does LoA state that "Intention" is all it will take. Intention is the starting place, the seed, the fuel and drive behind action, it is action which will create and manifest (by hand!), and
inspired action will arise from clearly stated intent. This process will result in a measurable effect on the world around us, whether it be bread or wealth, it will be there."

"The "other" aspects of Practico-inert seem to be more along the lines of agreements, albeit unconscious or unchosen ones. True, some slaves and those born into poor circumstance may not even be aware of the agreements they have made, or that were more likely made for them, but agreements they are nonetheless. The observed permanence of these agreements has more to do with their momentum and social inertia than with any inherent or intrinsic property they might possess. It is purely through intent and conscious action that we have dented these edifices, shaking some to their very cores, and by continued intent and awareness shall we rise above the shackles of thought they embody."

"But LOA as I evidently superficially understand it seems to be more of a form of "Magical Thinking". If I think hard enough, long enough, passionately enough, that mental effort will "in and of itself" affect/effect a physical material change in the world outside (of my mental processes). Been there, done that, doesn't work. At least for me. Or am I simply not sufficiently enlightened?"

"One that I haven't mentioned is the 60's counterculture split between the activists who were focused on stopping the Vietnam War (and other issues of social justice) and the beginning of what came to be called "New Age" when syncretic borrowings from Hinduism and Buddhism began to attract practitioners who withdrew from the outside world. There were some who tried doing both. Reclaiming is an Anarcho/Pagan effort to combine Earth
focused spirituality with political activism. But that didn't start until the eighties. I think that split was a huge mistake. I think it helped deflate the movement for positive social change. And I've lived, as an activist, with the frustrating consequences that followed."

"There's a big wide wild world out there where no matter how hard you concentrate, no matter how hard you try to put your dreams and desires into action, you're living in a world constrained by forces completely outside
your control and to the extent that those forces are conscious at all, they don't give a shit about you. Unless you can be exploited for a profit."

"Many of these agreements in how to behave, how to act, how to relate to others are instilled at a pre-verbal age, let alone an age capable of entering into an agreement with the logical and rational reasoning we as adults would bring to the process. These mores are instilled so deeply that we oft times refer to them as core values, and treat them as absolutes, as I feel you have done by referencing them in your description of the Practico-inert. I'd like to propose a redefinition of them as "Impractico-momenti", ingrained, often outmoded agreements ingrained by the social momentum of our particular society."

"The efforts you make on behalf of your beliefs, the lengths you move against the tide of passivity are laudable. I thank you for your work, and recognize it's value. I also am a bit confused with the relation your
activism has to the LoA, the Secret, and the like. Pondering this thought, I can only conclude that in your mind, you hold an idea, an idea(L) of a better world, one where equality and justice hold greater sway in the
day to day machinations of us naked apes. By holding this idea, and concentrating on it's ramifications, it's potential, and even more viscerally it's feel, you seem to be moved to inspired action, that of attending
Lynne's presentation, posting your conclusions, affecting (significantly and instrumentally) the thoughts of and therefore the nature of the community around you. In short, you are using "the Secret", you are manifesting that which you desire through diligent application of the Laws of Attraction, you are potent!"

"Hello...Without going back into great detail, again: quantum mechanics do not apply beyond the quantum scale. The experiments described in Newsweek do not in any way indicate that thought or consciousness have any impact on physical reality at our scale--merely in OUR ABILITY TO PERCEIVE physical reality AT THE QUANTUM SCALE, which is quite a different thing. At the quantum scale, "what is real" may be generally said to be far less definitive. Things have a certain probability of being one way or another, and which way they are can be crystallized by the act of trying to look at them.

That's true of a quark--it is not true of a toaster oven. We may be able to create technology which uses the nature of quantum-scale phenomena to transfer information at great distance, but that in no way means that such a process can occur naturally through the physical activity of our brains, the experiential perception of which is commonly referred to as our "minds", "souls", and/or "consciousnesses"."

"The only miracle, the impossible miracle (or secret) is to be just ordinary. The longing of the mind is to be extraordinary. The minds ego thirsts for recognition. And THIS is the miracle - when you accept your nobodyness, when you can be just as ordinary as anybody else, when you don't ask for recognition, when you can exist as if you are not existing. Power is never spiritual."

"There's still the mystery... What about our soul? What is really going on here? What about this thing called life? All the electrochemical reactions are still possible after the moment of death as before it. Whatever "life" really is, it has many dimensions that we have not begun to understand scientifically, and we may never fully understand, including the mysterious spark behind it all that I'll call divinity."

That's if folks for page one...I ended on a slightly pro-Secret note as that is where my persuasions lie..however there certainly was a great deal of solid observations to the contrary in this fascinating cyberconversation. Part II will NOT be coming to your local theatres next week so injest what you can and throw the rest in the recycling bin. Caio! Namaste! Quark! whatever....

[Zeno Swijtink]

A new study relevant to the power of positive thinking will be published in the Dec. 1 issue of the American Cancer Society (ACS) journal Cancer.

According to the results of this study, "in people treated for head and neck cancer, the emotional state of patients was found to have no influence on survival."

I think this is good news, esp. for those patients who find it difficult to sustain a "positive, upbeat, attitude."

Zeno

****

https://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20...ancer-survival

Attitude Doesn't Affect Cancer Survival: Study
SALYNN BOYLES and LOUISE CHANG, MD - WebMD

Thanks to Judy Tart.

Having a positive attitude may help cancer patients deal with their disease, but it doesn't directly affect survival, according to one of the largest and most rigorously designed investigations ever to examine the issue.

The study included more than 1,000 people treated for head and neck cancer; the emotional state of patients was found to have no influence on survival.

The findings add to the growing evidence showing no scientific basis for the popular notion that an upbeat attitude is critical for "beating" cancer, says University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine behavioral scientist James C. Coyne, PhD, who led the study team.

"I wish it were true that cancer survival was influenced by the patient's emotional state," he tells WebMD. "But given that it is not, I think we should stop blaming the patient."

'The Tyranny of Positive Thinking'

Jimmie Holland, MD, agrees. The Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center psychiatrist is a longtime critic of the "mind over cancer" proponents who tell patients they must stay positive to survive their disease.

In her book The Human Side of Cancer, Living with Hope, Coping with Uncertainty, Holland coined the term "the tyranny of positive thinking" to describe the belief.

"The idea that we can control illness and death with our minds appeals to our deepest yearnings, but it just isn't so," she tells WebMD. "It is so sad that cancer patients are made to believe that if they aren't doing well it is somehow their own fault because they aren't positive enough."

Holland does acknowledge the benefits of staying positive during cancer treatment, and she is an advocate of techniques like relaxation, meditation, support groups, and prayer to help patients cope with their disease.

But she says there is no credible evidence that positive thinking alone directly influences tumor growth.

"People really want to believe this, so even very good studies like this one probably won't change public thinking," she says. "But the scientific community is getting the message."

Attitude and Cancer Survival

The newly published study included 1,093 patients with head and neck cancer who completed quality-of-life questionnaires during their treatment.

Coyne says the study group was limited to patients with a single cancer who had similar treatments to better assess the impact of state of mind on survival.

A total of 646 patients died during the study follow-up. Even after acounting for other variables that could affect survival, a patient's emotional state was found to have no bearing on whether or not he or she lived or died.

The study appears in the Dec. 1 issue of the American Cancer Society (ACS) journal Cancer.

In a separate review of other studies published earlier this year, Coyne, University of Pennsylvania colleague Steven Palmer, PhD, and ACS researcher Michael Stefanek, PhD, found insufficient evidence that participation in psychotherapy or cancer support groups plays a role in survival.

In that report, the researchers concluded that the hope that emotional state is a driving factor in cancer outcomes "appears to have been misplaced."

"If cancer patients want psychotherapy or to be in a support group, they should be given the opportunity to do so," they wrote in the journal Psychological Bulletin. "There can be lots of emotional and social benefits. But [patients] should not seek such experiences solely on the expectation that they are extending their lives."

[ChristineL]

Maybe the perceptions of "The Secret" are more about the people watching it than about the concept itself. If you just study all the "magical" weight loss products out there and all those who actually try them, you get the idea. Visualizing yourself thin or taking some magic pill while sitting around on the sofa watching the tube and eating chips and dip is certainly not going to make you thin and fit. On the other hand, visualizing your goal, focusing on it and not letting all the negative comments, along with all the "you can'ts" probably heard for years influence you, will make it much easier to sit less, eat less and exercise.

If you believe you can't find a compatible mate, you won't. Your attitude will be felt by those you'd like to attract, and they won't go there. On the other hand...if you visualize your perfect match while sitting on the sofa doing nothing...well...there's very little likelihood he/she is the mail carrier, meter reader or UPS person. If you have no visualization or clarity about what you need and want in a mate and go looking...the divorce rate and the number of bad relationships out there says it all...

As for this whole "greed" discussion...We can visualize preserving land, developing new environmentally friendly energy sources, providing more services, as well as condemn those who have a lot...but...if no one is making the money to donate or invest...it's not going to happen. Any new idea or invention starts with someone's visualization and someone's ability to invest.

There is no United Way, Habitat for Humanity, etc., etc., if no one is making more money than they need. My town would not still have a for real free clinic if some people where not making more than they "need".

I agree with one posting which stated that greed was a term often used to make others feel guilty about having more money than they "need". If no-one buys the art, the artist doesn't make a living, if no one eats out the restaurant owner has no business and the employees have no jobs. If no one spends money taking vacations...resorts and their employees don't make a living...and so on...

I personally got over that guilt trip...and thus started visualizing and focusing on making more money (and, yes, doing more than sitting around "manifesting") by deciding who I wanted to support when I did have a little extra to spend. If I can stop for "Latte", I go to the local coffee shop which not only serves organic shade grown fair trade coffee, but treats their employees well. The only business of its kind I've come across that actually provides health insurance. I don't support WalMart, which to me creates their own clientelle by paying so badly. I go for a reasonably priced salad, burger or turkey sandwich at the "Garden Grille" which is family owned, grills their own meats, serves locally grown produce whenever possible, makes their own salad dressings, etc. Anyway...you get the idea.


It is also true that no amount of "visualization" and/or work, for that matter, could turn me into a good singer or a ballerina...I don't have the natural talent. A "belief system" needs to be balanced with "reason and logic". If you're short and "stacked" as I am, no amount of visualization, exercise or dieting is going to make you sylph-like. Fit, solid and in great shape for your body type yes.


If you don't believe you can, no matter how hard you work, you probably won't.

[ThePhiant]

Zeno,
the following statement contradicts the article

Holland does acknowledge the benefits of staying positive during cancer treatment, and she is an advocate of techniques like relaxation, meditation, support groups, and prayer to help patients cope with their disease.

A new study relevant to the power of positive thinking will be published in the Dec. 1 issue of the American Cancer Society (ACS) journal Cancer.

According to the results of this study, "in people treated for head and neck cancer, the emotional state of patients was found to have no influence on survival."

I think this is good news, esp. for those patients who find it difficult to sustain a "positive, upbeat, attitude."

Zeno

****

https://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20...ancer-survival

[Zeno Swijtink]

Zeno,
the following statement contradicts the article: "Holland does acknowledge the benefits of staying positive during cancer treatment, and she is an advocate of techniques like relaxation, meditation, support groups, and prayer to help patients cope with their disease."

It doesn't contradict the article!

According to this article, staying positive during treatment may give you a better quality of life during treatment but it does not make the treatment more likely to be successful.

[nicofrog]

Maybe If enough people "get it" world peace can be achieved!
YO Septics,know this,that the "secret crap"is not about thinking or all your philosophy god or no god rap..or intelligence (thanks spell check) etc.
It's located in the FEELING part of your being,may be why it's threatening
to some of us old world crusty males!
Spirituality is how we get in touch
Religion is crowd control
If you see the "secret" as Religion, it sucks, if you feel it in your spiritual
heartspace you VERY OFTEN get the parking space! Try it before you knock it , if nothing else ,you'll probably get laid more often!
spirit is not about getting our ya ya's it's about accepting a mystery thats Vast and hopefully will remain mostly incomprehensible(no I couldn't spell it spell check again)We are not the biggest kids on the block,if you ask me we need more bears ,tigers and lions around. AND I did Womanifest this computer, and the lovely woman who owns it , and all other manor of AMAZING things like food when I'm Hungry,and Sleep when I'm tired.I'm with you guys..
ask an Iraqi woman who's kids have been blasted about manifesting her retirement!
and yet in a world where 5% control the rest,
and in 1998 1% of the world had any kind of college edu.
meaning now It's about.08% (population growth )
and California has almost completed one new university in in the time it took to build 51 prisons
we can only hope to do our best,and leave something behind
thats real, and says We Tried!
here's my favorite spiritual quote
""I asked spirit to spare me suffering ,spirit said
"No"Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and closer
to me"
I asked spirit to give me happiness
Spirit said "No"
I give you blessings,Happiness is up to you
I asked spirit to help me love others as much as
spirit loves me, spirit said
"ah now you get it!"
the purpose of all this spiritual b.s.,is not to fix us up and make us whole,we got to be here,thats enough, It's to help us find and feel the love that is there, if we share it.If you stay there hid behind a mostly gray screen it ain't gonna hop out and get you no matter How hard you think.
and no amount of handbags and new Caddys are going to make you feel better if cancer is diagnosed ! Come on down to love choir and get your groove on! you will man or womanafest a twinkle in the eye just in time for the holidays !
I went to Center for spiritual living they had Bellydancers! yeah! thats spiritual enough for me!
betcha I get a parkin' place closer than you!
Love is a wonderful thing!
Nico

I watched this movie recently and thought it was infantile

Not so much since a silly metaphysical superstructure is given to the simple truth that a happy and open-minded person is more attractive and relaxed, and less likely to trip over a banana peel and make a fool of himself. (Yes, quantum theory is evoked again to make the audience swoon.)

It was infantile since in the video The Secret was used solely to satisfy infantile desires: the breathtaking necklace, the fast car, the stunning partner. All material and private desires.

Maybe those who hold The Secret can ask for World Peace next time, or some other urgent collective good?

Thanks!

[Melodymama]

While I agree that the movie did focus a bit too much on the "stuff", the underlying agenda is believing that all is possible and that one has the capacity to bring a positive, creatively curious attitude to any situation and visualize goals into manifestation. First, we need to take off the blinders that have old roots of pessimism and powerlessness in our minds. As we see more of what is good and possible around us, we appreicate the abundance of opportunity, love, and, yes, stuff, that can ease our lives in ways we never have considered. To think we know "how the world works" is to deify the teachings we have been subject to, and, gosh, there is SO MUCH more. We do not have to know the more, but to acknowledge an "as yet undefined understanding", and to get curious and manifest new results is amazing. Also, I think I understand Nicofrog's bit about spelling, and it is that if you are wanting to sound intelligent and authoritative, some of us just like proper spelling and language use. It is old fashioned and a blinder that I am working on. It is wonderful that so many people are wonder what the Secret is, and it is also wonderful that the real secret is there in everyone who opens to the positive, possible, creativity of love and gratitude As we all begin to see that more, we will increase the abundance of it. Yes, Nicofrog, world peace can be achieved and it will happen as we all respect and believe in the potential of all. As usual, irritatingly so, it has to begin within ourselves first. Laura

Maybe If enough people "get it" world peace can be achieved!
YO Septics,know this,that the "secret crap"is not about thinking or all your philosophy god or no god rap..or intelligence (thanks spell check) etc.
It's located in the FEELING part of your being,may be why it's threatening
to some of us old world crusty males!
Spirituality is how we get in touch
Religion is crowd control
If you see the "secret" as Religion, it sucks, if you feel it in your spiritual
heartspace you VERY OFTEN get the parking space! Try it before you knock it , if nothing else ,you'll probably get laid more often!
spirit is not about getting our ya ya's it's about accepting a mystery thats Vast and hopefully will remain mostly incomprehensible(no I couldn't spell it spell check again)We are not the biggest kids on the block,if you ask me we need more bears ,tigers and lions around. AND I did Womanifest this computer, and the lovely woman who owns it , and all other manor of AMAZING things like food when I'm Hungry,and Sleep when I'm tired.I'm with you guys..
ask an Iraqi woman who's kids have been blasted about manifesting her retirement!
and yet in a world where 5% control the rest,
and in 1998 1% of the world had any kind of college edu.
meaning now It's about.08% (population growth )
and California has almost completed one new university in in the time it took to build 51 prisons
we can only hope to do our best,and leave something behind
thats real, and says We Tried!
here's my favorite spiritual quote
""I asked spirit to spare me suffering ,spirit said
"No"Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and closer
to me"
I asked spirit to give me happiness
Spirit said "No"
I give you blessings,Happiness is up to you
I asked spirit to help me love others as much as
spirit loves me, spirit said
"ah now you get it!"
the purpose of all this spiritual b.s.,is not to fix us up and make us whole,we got to be here,thats enough, It's to help us find and feel the love that is there, if we share it.If you stay there hid behind a mostly gray screen it ain't gonna hop out and get you no matter How hard you think.
and no amount of handbags and new Caddys are going to make you feel better if cancer is diagnosed ! Come on down to love choir and get your groove on! you will man or womanafest a twinkle in the eye just in time for the holidays !
I went to Center for spiritual living they had Bellydancers! yeah! thats spiritual enough for me!
betcha I get a parkin' place closer than you!
Love is a wonderful thing!
Nico