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  1. TopTop #91

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam: View Post
    this is a no-win discussion: when i present the ample basis for my views, you don't care to examine it ("...wander into that morass") but repeatedly insist that i say what i believe and why.
    when i do, you write that others "as educated and more educated" have different views, though you don't offer the studies, articles, etc.

    once again, i will say: it is clear to me that vaccinations are extremely problematic; that censorship is rampant and strategic. ....
    If you substituted 'potentially' for 'extremely' in the last sentence I clipped, I'd have no argument. I understand if you don't feel like bothering with yet more links; I certainly am not promising to read them. But.. I really find the information density of video to be way low, it's a great medium for advocacy but poor for information. The only link I saw that was to print was one that took me to an article:
    "How Bill Gates Controls Global Messaging and Censorship"
    which kind of gives away its slant - it comes down to attempting to show these people aren't trustworthy. It would be nice to have a list of a few print sites that are a bit more focused on the details of the research itself, ideally with a little bit of an attempt to address what level of confidence its conclusions deserve. Possibly this isn't worth your while, but figured I'd ask anyway.
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  3. TopTop #92
    Jude Iam's Avatar
    Jude Iam
     

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    i myself like seeing and hearing the people in videos - full range of doctors, scientists, parents, children, teachers, etc. and the documentaries are very powerful. But some like reading; since you're clearly literate and capable of searching for yourself, if you're sincerely inquiring i do wonder why you haven't bothered, but here's the first link that i've found searching for you:
    http://www.chiropractic.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1200-studies-The-Truth-Will-Prevail-3.pdf
    here are links to 1200 hundred studies.
    also: https://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-Whist.../dp/1634509951
    and more to be found with a little effort, if deemed necessary.
    i find continuing this thread emotionally exhausting but worth it if you actually read at least some of this.
    it is simply not possible to dismiss the amassed work.
    looking forward to your assessment.



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    If you substituted 'potentially' for 'extremely' in the last sentence I clipped, I'd have no argument. I understand if you don't feel like bothering with yet more links; I certainly am not promising to read them. But.. I really find the information density of video to be way low, it's a great medium for advocacy but poor for information. The only link I saw that was to print was one that took me to an article:
    "How Bill Gates Controls Global Messaging and Censorship"
    which kind of gives away its slant - it comes down to attempting to show these people aren't trustworthy. It would be nice to have a list of a few print sites that are a bit more focused on the details of the research itself, ideally with a little bit of an attempt to address what level of confidence its conclusions deserve. Possibly this isn't worth your while, but figured I'd ask anyway.
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  4. TopTop #93

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam: View Post
    i myself like seeing and hearing the people in videos - full range of doctors, scientists, parents, children, teachers, etc. and the documentaries are very powerful. But some like reading; since you're clearly literate and capable of searching for yourself, if you're sincerely inquiring i do wonder why you haven't bothered, but here's the first link that i've found searching for you:
    http://www.chiropractic.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1200-studies-The-Truth-Will-Prevail-3.pdf
    there are links to hundreds of studies.
    looking forward to your assessment.
    ok, since you ask for an assessment:
    I will follow some of these links over the next few days, but.. i was immediately dismayed by the title "Truth will prevail" and the cover photo of a white baby. This is clearly advocacy, but the author is clearly passionate about his perspective and it looks like there's a nicely dense argument being made. So thanks. As for videos, I agree they're often powerful, but they aren't typically informative -- unless the person watching is a bit of a blank slate. So for example, the BLM videos coming out work pretty well to make white people aware of things they may have been ignoring, but if you've been at all engaged in your culture, or have any sense of history, there's no new information there. Video's there more to motivate than inform.
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  5. TopTop #94
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    By "ample basis" do you mean your lengthy list of experts who agree with you?

    What's the point of offering you "the studies, articles, etc"? You know as well as I do that your anti-vax view is in the minority; you even said that yourself in a previous post. For every expert you present, there will be another expert who disagrees.

    What's wrong with repeatedly asking you to succinctly say what you believe and why? I'm offering you a chance to explain your views about vaccination. I'm truly curious, Judith! Instead of flooding me with expert references and taking an adversarial attitude as if we're trying to win a debate, why don't you just give me a brief overview of the harm you believe has been caused by vaccinations?

    You did not reply to my statement that I and many other people had already had many vaccinations as children right on up to yearly flu vaccinations as adults, mostly with no apparent ill effects. And thank god we did not contract the horrible diseases for which we were protected! What's wrong with that?



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam: View Post
    this is a no-win discussion: when i present the ample basis for my views, you don't care to examine it ("...wander into that morass") but repeatedly insist that i say what i believe and why.
    when i do, you write that others "as educated and more educated" have different views, though you don't offer the studies, articles, etc.

    once again, i will say: it is clear to me that vaccinations are extremely problematic; that censorship is rampant and strategic. since you will not do your own exploration, there is no point in further discussion.
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  7. TopTop #95
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    Judith, I'm re-sending this post because I feel that it deserves a response!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by occihoff: View Post
    By "ample basis" do you mean your lengthy list of experts who agree with you?

    What's the point of offering you "the studies, articles, etc"? You know as well as I do that your anti-vax view is in the minority; you even said that yourself in a previous post. For every expert you present, there will be another expert who disagrees.

    What's wrong with repeatedly asking you to succinctly say what you believe and why? I'm offering you a chance to explain your views about vaccination. I'm truly curious, Judith! Instead of flooding me with expert references and taking an adversarial attitude as if we're trying to win a debate, why don't you just give me a brief overview of the harm you believe has been caused by vaccinations?

    You did not reply to my statement that I and many other people had already had many vaccinations as children right on up to yearly flu vaccinations as adults, mostly with no apparent ill effects. And thank god we did not contract the horrible diseases for which we were protected! What's wrong with that?
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  9. TopTop #96

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by occihoff: View Post
    Judith, I'm re-sending this post because I feel that it deserves a response!
    I'm not sure I agree it deserves a response. Is there any doubt about what those of us post here believe, or why? And it's not obvious that there is a succinct way to explain 'why'. Like Richard Feynman said when asked if he could give a simple explanation of magnetism, the answer is likely to be "sorry, a simple one doesn't exist".
    Personally, I think I understand why from her posts. I'm sort of interested in seeing if I can find one of them that convinces me, someday.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-07-2020 at 12:20 PM.
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  10. TopTop #97
    geomancer's Avatar
    geomancer
     

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...c-coronavirus/

    Masks work. Now we need to pay attention to when and where, and which kind.

    Itís not whether to wear face coverings we should be considering. Itís the specifics about use and type.

    --------------------------

    Mask mandates work. In
    South Carolina, locales with mask mandates had a 46 percent greater decrease in covid-19 cases than locales without mask mandates. In Kansas, counties that adopted mask mandates had a striking reduction in cases.

    --------------

    The profusion of homemade face masks, although they may encourage use and engage volunteers and communities in production, obscures important differences in effectiveness. If an N95 or surgical mask isnít being used, a tightfitting mask with three layers consisting of cotton or cotton-synthetic material is next best.
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  12. TopTop #98
    socoexpat
     

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    Ok... let's put all the experts in the field as well as those that somehow "earned" a PHD aside for a moment and look at the facts logically.

    We know that Covid is mostly spread by aerosolized droplets.

    We know that people- when they talk, yell, sing, sneeze, cough, etc spread these droplets to one degree or another.

    We know, that a face covering (and increasingly those of specific types) , will indeed help stop the spread of these droplets to others.

    So...wtf was the question of the original post?

    And, let's let look at the first two posts from the person that started this thread, shall we?

    Despite the claims - Karen, oh excuse me... I think her name was Peggy... I'm sorry but the OC Public Health Official Nichole Quick did not resign because your claims were "right"... she resigned- as many public health officials have. around this country during the pandemic, because they were tired of the death threats, of having to be given a protective detail by the Sheriffs, tired of "protests" outside their houses, tired of themselves and their family being harassed and threatened.

    I'll admit- I applaud these health officials around our nation that have resigned. When your job is to protect the people in your area- and these people prove themselves to be unworthy of protection... yes, walk away.


    As to the 2nd post by the "OP" (I believe it's the 4th post? ... the study in Vietnam about masks has no relevance (no surprise it was posted as if it did). That study was about protecting the wearer of the mask- not about protecting others.

    I find it pretty deeply disturbing that the vast majority of the anti-maskers come from "the (far) right", with the remainder tending to come from the very far left. On many, many issues- it seems the far right and the far left often have more common then than the traditional left/right dichotomy.
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  14. TopTop #99
    rossmen
     

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    Time will tell wether masks work. Past real studies show they have efficacy in surgical settings but less real knowledge in public spheres. In now required masking seems to have real impact in slowing spread of inevitable exposure to covid. But is this more an aspect of economic privilege? Is it better to ask questions, or pontificate without naming credentials? I have none besides curiousity.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by socoexpat: View Post
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  16. TopTop #100
    rossmen
     

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    And why do you demonize questioners as far left or right? Reads like you don't like questions. What about sweden? No masks, death by million stalled at less then 600, and still doing better than their oil rich offspring norway economically. Reads like you have a polical economic personal agenda. I can name mine, can you?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by socoexpat: View Post
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  18. TopTop #101
    socoexpat
     

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    ^ @rossmen . I don't "demonize". I call it as I see it. As someone who has spent much of their life in other states, where people don't just vote the party line, where often the "label" of a party is largely meaningless and you actually need to vote for a person with morals AND the ability to work across party lines, well

    And, yes, the "Sweeden trope" again. Did you read my comments about that? A brutal experiment that cost thousands of lives. In the hope of "herd immunity" - with zero understanding of what that would take if it is even possible. Their numbers on the rise again. And as more advanced genetic testing of the virus is coming into play, we are beginning to see the often dismissed anecdotal reports being proven true- people being re-infected within a 3-4 month time frame. Which does not bode well for either the "herd immunity" approach or a vaccine.

    But I suppose your metric is the economy vs numbers of deaths per 1,000?
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  19. TopTop #102
    geomancer's Avatar
    geomancer
     

    Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question

    I found this graphic that summarizes relative risk with/without masking in various settings.

    Name:  COVID Risk.jpg
Views: 1287
Size:  92.1 KB
    Last edited by Barry; 09-01-2020 at 10:48 PM.
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