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  1. TopTop #1
    SonomaPatientsCoop's Avatar
    SonomaPatientsCoop
     

    Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    No ones gonna like this...but so be it...

    Bernies has, maybe, won twice now if you believe him. But if you're objective- he's lost big twice...

    In Iowa, never mind the conspiracy theories, he lost in delegates. Won slightly in votes. But remember- Iowa used to only report the delegates. They reported 3 metrics this year- with the total votes having been demanded by Sanders because he was sure he could turn out the vote. It didn't happen. Turnout there was much like 2016- not the huge turnout of 2008. And regardless- Bernie failed miserably at inspiring the wave he had promised.

    Much the same in New Hampshire. Where turnout *does* look to be more like 2008. Yet the turnout was not a wave for Bernie...it was a wave for Democrats.

    Both Sanders and Warren needed huge margins in New Hampshire- states their districts adjoin and the voters who know them best. It didn't happen.

    Bernie will not do well in Nevada. Will likely finish last in South Carolina (caveat- we'll see if being gay or being socialist fares worse in South Carolina).

    California and New York are the only states Sanders is likely to win big. Many of the key "swing states"... he will loose because the unionized workers don't want to trade their hard fought for health insurance for MFA, because they won't for a socialist, and because he simply does not have the support of the black and latino communities. And to be honest... because he is not a christian.

    Pete's going to likewise struggle in many key states because he is openly gay- which is going to hurt him with many religious folks and the black and latino populations.

    Warren may actually come back in many of the upcoming states if she stays in the race. Likewise Biden. And Klobuchar may rise fastest of all.

    But I think we are really looking at a situation where there was not a single candidate who really had what it took to unite our country. We're going to have a brutal and contested national convention. And then... unless the economy starts to crash (which it's going to...only question is whether it's 3 months or 12 months)... whether Trump supporters turn.

    Maybe the Republicans were right in the impeachment.. let the voter decide.
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  3. TopTop #2
    forveterans49's Avatar
    forveterans49
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Media keeps lying about Bernie. Check this out: https://www.democracynow.org/2020/2/...ed_audio_aspen


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by SonomaPatientsCoop: View Post
    Last edited by Barry; 02-13-2020 at 02:39 PM.
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  5. TopTop #3
    phredo's Avatar
    phredo
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Everyone has an opinion. Here are a couple of links to Nate Silver's site:

    Who Will Win The 2020 Democratic Primary? This one is a graphical representation of his analysis of who is likely to win more than half of the pledged delegates in the 2020 primary. Bernie Sanders tops the list with a 37% chance. The next closest is Biden with a 16% chance.

    Sanders Is The Front-Runner After New Hampshire, And A Contested Convention Has Become More Likely The title speaks for itself. (I should mention that the actual second place in the first article was "No One", with a 36% chance.)

    Nate Silver is a pollster, highly regarded for accuracy. Of course, he's still often wrong. But obviously many Democrats do support a social democrat (you know, like Angela Merkel?) and many Democrats do support Medicare For All, like the Canadians, Germans, French, British, and Taiwanese have. Many black and brown people support Bernie, certainly more than support Buttigieg and Klobuchar. Many people support non-Christian politicians--look at all the Jewish Representatives and Senators throughout the US, including "red" states. So I don't think you have an accurate theoretical basis for much of what you say. Perhaps you could explain why you think the facts are on your side.

    Of course, you may be 100% correct, after all. We will see how it turns out!
    Last edited by Barry; 02-13-2020 at 02:40 PM.
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  7. TopTop #4
    Shepherd's Avatar
    Shepherd
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Yea Bernie! GO! He would probably select a woman Vice-President, who could go on to be the first woman president.

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    Last edited by Barry; 02-14-2020 at 01:40 PM.
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  9. TopTop #5
    O.W.'s Avatar
    O.W.
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Bernie is the only one who has been fighting the 1% and their GOP elitists/enablers for years now. The mainstream Dems and centrists don't get it....we have to have bold action now as the mainstream (centrists) solutions do not work and inequality gets worse. Elizabeth Warren is a fighter also and loved her Consumers Bureau that has been gutted by the GOP plutocrats. Government by and for the elites, I didn't sign up for this.

    Just saw an interview and evidently all the Davos crowd believe Trump will be elected again. Clueless sociopaths. 69 degrees in Antarctica…... we have no time left. Bernie ticks all my boxes.

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  11. TopTop #6
    wisewomn's Avatar
    wisewomn
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    I agree with most of what you say, OW, but I also think it's a bit naive to believe that the Dems aren't also in thrall to banks, corporations and the like, too. They've just historically been more circumspect about it. The Repugs aren't even trying to hide it anymore.

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    Last edited by Barry; 02-16-2020 at 01:14 PM.
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  13. TopTop #7
    caromia333's Avatar
    caromia333
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    this is one of the best interviews with Michael Moore about the election.
    Shining bits of glorious truth … and what’s really happening in the corrupt DNC



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by SonomaPatientsCoop: View Post
    Last edited by Barry; 02-17-2020 at 01:34 PM.
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  15. TopTop #8
    cyberanvil
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    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by caromia333: View Post
    Couldn't watch the whole interview, but it's clear that Michael is a Bernie Bro. Personally, I don't think the country is prepared for a Socialist. If Bernie gets the nomination, he will destroy the Democratic party. That's why the DNC and the power brokers are looking for anyone (even Bloomberg) to act as a savior.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-17-2020 at 01:35 PM.
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  16. TopTop #9
    wisewomn's Avatar
    wisewomn
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?


    Bernie Sanders Isn’t a Socialist

    Feb. 13, 2020


    Republicans have a long, disreputable history of conflating any attempt to improve American lives with the evils of “socialism.” When Medicare was first proposed, Ronald Reagan called it “socialized medicine,” and he declared that it would destroy our freedom. These days, if you call for something like universal child care, conservatives accuse you of wanting to turn America into the Soviet Union.

    It’s a smarmy, dishonest political strategy, but it’s hard to deny that it has sometimes been effective. And now the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination — not an overwhelming front-runner, but clearly the person most likely at the moment to come out on top — is someone who plays right into that strategy, by declaring that he is indeed a socialist.

    The thing is, Bernie Sanders isn’t actually a socialist in any normal sense of the term. He doesn’t want to nationalize our major industries and replace markets with central planning; he has expressed admiration, not for Venezuela, but for Denmark. He’s basically what Europeans would call a social democrat — and social democracies like Denmark are, in fact, quite nice places to live, with societies that are, if anything, freer than our own.

    So why does Sanders call himself a socialist? I’d say that it’s mainly about personal branding, with a dash of glee at shocking the bourgeoisie. And this self-indulgence did no harm as long as he was just a senator from a very liberal state.

    But if Sanders becomes the Democratic presidential nominee, his misleading self-description will be a gift to the Trump campaign. So will his policy proposals. Single-payer health care is (a) a good idea in principle and (b) very unlikely to happen in practice, but by making Medicare for All the centerpiece of his campaign, Sanders would take the focus off the Trump administration’s determination to take away the social safety net we already have.

    Just to be clear, if Sanders is indeed the nominee, the Democratic Party should give him its wholehearted support. He probably couldn’t turn America into Denmark, and even if he could, President Trump is trying to turn us into a white nationalist autocracy like Hungary. Which would you prefer?

    But I do wish that Sanders weren’t so determined to make himself an easy target for right-wing smears.

    Speaking of unhelpful political posturing, the runner-up in New Hampshire has also been poisoning his own well. Over the past few days Pete Buttigieg has chosen to pose as a deficit hawk, thereby demonstrating that while he may be a fresh face, he has remarkably stale ideas.

    Maybe Buttigieg is unaware of the growing consensus among mainstream economists that the deficit hysteria of seven or eight years ago was greatly overblown. Last year the former top economists in the Obama administration published an article titled “Who’s Afraid of Budget Deficits?” which concluded, “It’s time for Washington to put away its debt obsession and focus on bigger things.”

    And where Sanders is playing right into one disreputable Republican political strategy, Buttigieg is playing into another: the strategy of hobbling the economy with fiscal austerity when a Democrat occupies the White House, then borrowing freely as soon as the G.O.P. regains power. If Democrats win, they should pursue a progressive agenda, not waste political capital cleaning up the G.O.P.’s mess.

    Again, if Buttigieg somehow becomes the nominee, the party should back him without reservation. Whatever he may say about deficits, he wouldn’t do what Republicans do: use debt fears as an excuse to slash social programs.

    So who will the Democrats nominate? Your guess is as good as mine. What’s really important, however, is that the party stays focused on its strengths and Trump’s weaknesses.

    For the fact is that all of the Democrats who would be president, from Bloomberg to Bernie, are at least moderately progressive; they all want to maintain and expand the social safety net, while raising taxes on the wealthy. And all the polling evidence says that America is basically a center-left nation — which is why Trump promised to raise taxes on the rich and protect major social programs during the 2016 campaign.

    But he was lying, and at this point everyone with an open mind knows it. So Democrats have a perfect opportunity to portray themselves, truthfully, as the defenders of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and the now-popular Affordable Care Act against Republicans who are more or less nakedly favoring the interests of plutocrats over those of working families.

    This opportunity will, however, be squandered if the Democratic nominee, whoever he or she is, turns the election into a referendum on either single-payer health care or deficit reduction, neither of which is an especially popular position. Things will be even worse if the Democrats themselves degenerate into squabbles over either ideological purity or fiscal probity.

    The point is that whoever gets the nomination, Democrats need to build as broad a coalition as possible. Otherwise they’ll be handing the election to Trump — and that would be a tragedy for the party, the nation and the world.

    Last edited by Barry; 02-17-2020 at 01:43 PM.
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  18. TopTop #10
    caromia333's Avatar
    caromia333
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Bernie isn't a socialist. But Republicans clearly are. Let's quit circling the wagons and shooting in.
    US taxpayers subsidising world's biggest fossil fuel companies

    Shell, ExxonMobil and Marathon Petroleum got subsidises granted by politicians who received significant campaign contributions from the fossil fuel industry, Guardian investigation reveals

    Oil & Gas Industry receives more than $17 Billion in Subsidies per year,

    This is what Bernie is fighting against and with CLIMATE CHANGE giving us just 10 years (according to worlds leading scientists} to address - we can't afford any moderates who aren't clear about what's really happening in the US.

    Republicans have being paying for SOCIALIST propaganda ads for sometime now. Don't fall for it. READ media like THE INTERCEPT, PROJECT CENSORED (SSU renown journalism program).

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by cyberanvil: View Post
    Last edited by caromia333; 02-17-2020 at 09:20 AM. Reason: error in formating
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  20. TopTop #11
    cyberanvil
    Guest

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by caromia333: View Post
    He says he is. He may tack on a prelabel of "Democratic" but it's clear what he's about.

    democratic socialists ultimately want to go beyond mere meliorist reforms and advocate systemic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism.


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  22. TopTop #12
    caromia333's Avatar
    caromia333
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Bernie LIVE NOW in Washington State - thousands of people there ... AMAZING

    https://www.facebook.com/berniesande...action_generic
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  24. TopTop #13
    cyberanvil
    Guest

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn: View Post
    Why is Bernie calling himself a Democratic Socialist?

    "While it might not sound as dramatic, what Sanders is isn’t a socialist—democratic or otherwise—it’s a social democrat. Social democracy is a reformist approach that doesn’t do away with capitalism in its entirety (as, instead, socialism eventually suggests) but instead regulates it, providing public services and substantial welfare within the frame of an essentially market-led economy."

    https://qz.com/1805692/bernie-sander...YPL&yptr=yahoo
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  26. TopTop #14
    forveterans49's Avatar
    forveterans49
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Paul Krugman is a nut.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by cyberanvil: View Post
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  27. TopTop #15
    django
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Phredo wrote: "...obviously many Democrats do support a social democrat (you know, like Angela Merkel?)"

    That is incorrect. Merkel is head of the Christian Democratic Union, the conservative party. The Social Democratic Party, the second largest in Germany, is her opposition.
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  29. TopTop #16
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by django: View Post
    I think his point is that her policies are similar to Bernie's. I'm kind of worried that semantics are so central to the kind of arguments that are going to come up. Who cares, really? The issue is whether the policies he wants are in line with what people wish their government would adopt. And if you want to be practical about it, whether having a president espousing such policies would move government to provide services, and set priorities, in line with what people want? Trumpies are happy because their boy rails against immigrants and China's unfair business practices, and claims he'll protect their jobs by removing regulations. They don't measure him by how well it's working. Sanders should thrive under something similar - his followers want him to take on the oligarchs and corporations. I doubt they'll care all that much if he's no more effective at that than Trump is at achieving his professed goals.
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  31. TopTop #17
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by forveterans49: View Post
    oh really? wanna cherry-pick some quotes from him that demonstrate that? Maybe you can, but usually he's pretty good. He's one of the best popularizers of economics that are out there.
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  33. TopTop #18
    django
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    It's not semantics to point out the poster has confused the two major parties in a major European country. "Who cares, really?" Anyone should care who is interested in an informed conversation. What this mistake really shows is how far the US has shifted to the right - to the point that the leader of Germany's conservative party is mistaken here for a democratic socialist.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-25-2020 at 02:30 PM.
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  35. TopTop #19
    phredo's Avatar
    phredo
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    You're correct: Merkel's a Christian Democrat and not a member of the Social Democrat party, and it was sloppy and incorrect of me to call her a Social Democrat. But she presides over a country which practices much of what Bernie would like to see in this country, such as socialized medicine, free higher education, and the right of workers to participate in the companies they work for, as well as many other benefits for workers. I should have said Germany, not Merkel, who, however, as far as I know, does not wish to abandon any of those policies, typical of a social democracy.

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    Last edited by Barry; 02-25-2020 at 02:31 PM.
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  37. TopTop #20
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    to counter myself, here's another opinion about the impact of the label 'socialism'. I still think there's plenty of time to change the argument - once it's no longer a theoretical issue, but there's a real person to observe, I bet it'll be less of a flashpoint. But:

    Slate: The Great Socialism Gap

    Socialism doesn’t freak out Democratic voters the way it freaks out other Americans. That’s a problem.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-25-2020 at 02:35 PM.
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  39. TopTop #21
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Thank you for the edifying Krugman article, Cyber. But how does that jibe with your previous more critical post?

    In any case, if Sanders does become the nominee and has to debate Trump, he will have a glorious opportunity to educate the electorate in regard to democratic socialism, and I think he will make Trump look like the nasty and devious idiot he is. And President Sanders cannot wave his magic wand and turn the US into anything. Only Congress can evolve such changes.

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  41. TopTop #22
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    So do you think such a transformation would mean that private entrepreneurs such as auto mechanics, psychotherapists, small farmers, and business consultants would somehow be abolished and compelled to ply their trades only through central government bureaus? How extreme must "socialism" become to merit the title?

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  43. TopTop #23
    cyberanvil
    Guest

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by occihoff: View Post
    Care to expand your statement?
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  44. TopTop #24
    cyberanvil
    Guest

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by occihoff: View Post
    What is bothering you? This statement?

    "but it's clear what he's about."

    If so, then ----------

    "
    "Bernie [is] out there giving these very broad definitions of what he's going to do," warned Puzder. "He's going to increase taxes to ridiculous rates, which will discourage economic growth, which will kill job creation, which will kill the competition for employees that's driving wages."Specifically addressing the Green New Deal, Puzder said that Sanders, "wants to take over the construction industry, wants to take over the energy industry."

    "These are all segments of the economy that would be run by the government under a Bernie Sanders plan," Puzder argued. "The direction of the economy would not be determined by consumers, by the public, which is what you have in a capitalist economy."
    In conclusion, Puzder observed that even some of the European countries that Sanders cites as models for his reforms object to his characterization of them.
    https://www.foxnews.com/media/bernie...ialism-america


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  45. TopTop #25
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by cyberanvil: View Post
    I didn't realize that a man of such integrity and unblemished reputation as Puzder has now taken the job of Bernie's official spokesman. Better to hear it laundered through him than to actually listen to the candidate himself.
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  47. TopTop #26
    cyberanvil
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    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    Bernie is a master of subterfuge.
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  48. TopTop #27
    Robinlp's Avatar
    Robinlp
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    I am one of those people who you think won't care. I will. Sanders understands and says repeatedly, not me Us right. So he knows one person cannot do the things alone that need to be done. WE have to do it as a country or as a movement. We know he can't magically change everything overnight, but boy I wish some one could.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-28-2020 at 02:14 PM.
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  50. TopTop #28
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Robinlp: View Post
    I said "I doubt they'll care all that much if he's no more effective at that than Trump is at achieving his professed goals" -- what I mean is that I don't think your support will waver if he can't get his plans through. Trump was elected because his fans think he's voicing their views and pursuing their interests. I think they're wrong about that, but that's why they stick with him. I give Sanders credit, and his supporters. I think they're correct when they think he's pushing for their interests. And I do think that they won't make that support conditional on his successes - only on whether he "keeps the faith".
    Last edited by Barry; 02-28-2020 at 02:15 PM.
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  52. TopTop #29
    cyberanvil
    Guest

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Bernie's success is also his weakness. As a self proclaimed revolutionary, he does not retreat or change his views. Kudos to him, but this is not a recipe for legislative success.
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  54. TopTop #30
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Bernies done. Are the Dems too?

    Examples?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by cyberanvil: View Post
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