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  1. TopTop #151
    Mayacaman's Avatar
    Mayacaman
    Supporting member

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    finnie wrote:

    some good thoughts in here but one is troubling. we can't think about resolving sonoma county's problems in mendocino county. if all parties were willing, of course, it will work. but perhaps it's best that we solve our county's emergency within the county.
    onward!
    Kathleen, we must think outside the little sandbox of Sonoma County. Most of those who are currently among the Homeless in Sonoma County came from elsewhere, and many of them would not mind going a few miles north of here - if they could find work and a safe place to pitch their tent at the same time.

    When & If the bureaucrats in both Counties realize that roughly twenty percent of the Homeless can: A] Plant trees (@ piecework wages) & B] Homestead small plots of land & thus be off the streets, perhaps they will catch the vision that Land Reform coupled with Reforestation is the elegant solution, to two major issues.

    cyberanvil wrote:

    I just don't see your plan as workable in any sense. Taking untrained townies (who are not Daniel Boon types) and planting them in some wilderness spot. A spot that is burned out or otherwise not at all inviting is ludicrous. Expecting them to fell trees, build cabins and all the infrastructure to sustain a village or commune. It just isn't happening. Support services, employment, etc, etc? Miles from regular habitation, where's an unemployed computer tech, office worker, welder, auto mechanic, etc. etc. going to work?
    It certainly is not for everyone, cyberanvil. But, after I had spent several days on the JRT, and had spoken with a number of able-bodied people about the option of A] Being paid by the government to plant trees, & B] Having the opportunity to patent a Homestead of either 4.444 or just under half an acre (depending on how much one could reasonably handle) everyone I spoke to said “Where can I do this?” & “Let me at it ! “

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    After doing that field work, I ran the Idea by Adrienne Lauby of Homeless Action! -& Said that I thought roughly fifteen percent of the homeless folks I spoke with (especially the veterans among them) could handle the rigors of living in their tents in the woods, planting trees for their day jobs, and building their own rammed earth houses, brick by brick.

    Adrienne Lauby warmed to the Idea, and stated emphatically that she thought that at least twenty percent of the Homeless that she knows in this County would be capable of sticking to it.

    karenm97 wrote:
    I'm sure that there are not many to-be-developed lots on Santa Rosa Ave that have water, sewer, and electrical hookups. There are plenty of new units being built - maybe you mean to suggest that the city or county could take some of those over?
    Nope, I’m not suggesting that at all. I don’t think that it is the responsibility of any County to spend millions of dollars to house people. It shouldn’t fall on the Counties to provide housing for everyone, rent free.

    The responsibility of alleviating the Homeless Crisis should be shared by the States and the Federal government - which, since the time of Ronald Reagan has steadily abrogated more & more responsibility of providing for the poor and those who are not able to function in a self-supporting manner. Sonoma Developmental Center is a perfect and safe place for some of the more dysfunctional folks who are currently living on the edge.

    The SDC should be retrofitted no matter what the cost. A government that can spend 738 Billion dollars on more war toys for the benefit of the plutes ought to be able to retrofit a hospital. There should also be places in every county where the homeless can safely pitch their tents, without being hassled & continually moved on by the gendarmes. There should also be cheap State-subsidized hotels where down and out people can spend the night for five dollars.

    “But let's return to your idea of setting up concentration camps for homeless people to "homestead" in burned forest areas…”
    How could you possibly misread my words and attribute such vicious intentions into anything that I have written? When I wrote about the FEMA Camps, it was a warning that they do exist, and that Trump and Carson may indeed have those {very dark} intentions. Q. Just what did Ben Carson mean when he spoke of "clean places" where the homeless are to be put ?

    My suggestion to put some of the homeless (the able ones) to work planting trees is one positive solution to the Homeless Crisis. It achieves the elegant solution of allowing People – Anybody: Boomers, Generation X’rs & Millennials - to obtain a parcel of land that, in the end shall be theirs to keep -and also- granting them meaningful Paid Labor, planting Trees. The Slogan is:

    "Forty Acres, an Alaskan, a Bobcat & a Cinva Earth Ram"

    If the Federal government can waste seven hundred and thirty-eight billions dollars on the DoD this year, they can also provide an Alaskan, a Bobcat & a Cinva Earth Ram to every forty acre parcel that is established as the site of a Homestead patent. They can help do the deep drilling, down to primary water, so that even semi-arid lands can become viable for human habitation.

    The Idea of Opening up the Public Lands to Homesteading does not equate with “putting the homeless in concentration camps.” How could you come up with such a baseless slurring of my meaning Karen? I suggest that you take a serious -and long- look at the many articles I have posted on the other thread here on WaccoBB. Then you would understand where I am coming from, and would not attribute such vile sentiments to me.


    “These people who don't have the money to deal with basic living expenses will be, what, put out in the burned forest, away from all stores and services, and those who are well enough will be "put to work" planting trees? Slavery? Cruelty?”
    What I am proposing, Karen is that the Federal government spend several Billion dollars to provide jobs and services for the million or so people who are currently homeless in America. – And that selected portions of the vast open spaces of the West be made available for Homesteading, once again.

    The Federal Budget for the Department of Defense is 738 Billion dollars for fiscal 2020. To me that is obscene. I do not support the notion of unlimited spending on Welfare; but the basic needs of American citizens are far more important and pressing than the bottomless hunger of the military-industrial complex.

    I know, from talking to people on the JRT, that the able-bodied among the homeless would much rather be gainfully employed planting trees in the wilderness & reforesting the scarred terrain – with the assistance of professional foresters - and simultaneously building their own houses, on parcels that shall become their own property.

    “Wonder how much money you're thinking our county would pay Mendo to "take" our homeless folks.”
    None. That is not in the equation. Both Counties are Departments of the State of California.



    Last edited by Mayacaman; 02-12-2020 at 09:03 PM.
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  2. TopTop #152
    finnie
     

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    The notion that most of the unsheltered here came from elsewhere is just plain wrong.
    According to the January 2019 Homeless Census, 87% of the homeless in Sonoma County lived in Sonoma County prior to be becoming homeless.
    As for the statement that "many" of those here "would not mind going a few miles north...." I am compelled to ask how many of the 3,000 such individuals here have personally told you that? And what is referred to as "a few miles" north is actually more than 100 miles from northern Santa Rosa.


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  4. TopTop #153
    tommy's Avatar
    tommy
    Supporting member

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Some of these ideas are very nice... but a significant portion of the unsheltered people are dysfunctional. This includes the mentally ill, those with health problems, drug dependent, alcoholics, those old, tired & broke.

    Some of those (or those in past years) used to depend on public services, mental hospitals, and public housing, that is no longer available. Unless our government provides for those individuals, they will always be camped in tents under the freeway.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-13-2020 at 11:37 AM.
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  6. TopTop #154
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote tommy wrote: View Post
    Some of these ideas are very nice... but ...
    yeah, when I say "creating neighborhoods" I mean something really broad. The kind of thing that the city setup on the east side of town, with a smaller footprint -- and probably several of them -- would be necessary. In a way, the Rodota trail encampment is a model of what the unsheltered people prefer over current shelters. It seems like a solution that varies too far from that is likely to fail again. Fix the problems: tarps & tents are no good, lack of sanitation is no good, poor security is a problem, lack of access to services is a problem. Each bit independently isn't hard to address except for money and nimby. Those hurdles are overcome for other installations a city requires, so they need to be overcome for this too. As you point out, the alternative of having people under the freeway isn't any better in the eyes of the critics. The critics whose only solution is to move 'm out somewhere else, I don't feel a need to placate.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-13-2020 at 11:39 AM.
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  8. TopTop #155
    finnie
     

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    it's worth taking a close look at why hundreds of people would rather live in terrible circumstances in the cold, wet winter rather than take a bed in an emergency warehouse shelter.
    i think it boils down to freedom and privacy with community.
    so what homeless action! and savs are proposing - inexpensive transitional villages with private cottages, security, hygiene and services is a no-brainer. except, it would seem, for our so-called housing experts who refuse to consider this very model that's successful all over the country. guess the big developers who hold powerful sway in this county, won't make enough money on these villages. but the fact is, the taxpayers are taking a real hit on what it costs for emergency services for those who are unsheltered. not to speak of about $100 million a year to try to prevent the empty chanate complex from being vandalized. we're paying for that too. outrageous!
    Last edited by Barry; 02-13-2020 at 03:02 PM.
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  10. TopTop #156
    Mayacaman's Avatar
    Mayacaman
    Supporting member

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    finnie wrote:
    The notion that most of the unsheltered here came from elsewhere is just plain wrong.
    According to the January 2019 Homeless Census, 87% of the homeless in Sonoma County lived in Sonoma County prior to be becoming homeless.

    As for the statement that "many" of those here "would not mind going a few miles north...." I am compelled to ask how many of the 3,000 such individuals here have personally told you that? And what is referred to as "a few miles" north is actually more than 100 miles from northern Santa Rosa.
    I’m not trying to move anyone on, Kathleen. The governor, Gavin Newsom passed the buck on the homeless situation in San Francisco when he was the mayor there. He said that most of the homeless in S.F. came from Texas. Some of them may have.

    I am sure you are right about the 87% having lived here before they became homeless. -But that doesn’t mean that they were born here. Many of them were not. I wasn’t born here. -And it doesn’t mean that those who have become Homeless here in Sonoma County must needs stay here, either. Americans are a mobile people - they have always been so. -Especially here in California, where people move around like popcorn popping.

    All I know is that everyone on the Joe Rodota Trail to whom I spoke about the tree-planting & Homestead option said “Where?” & “Let me at it !” That indicates to me that many would be willing to relocate. No one should be forced to go anywhere. It must be completely voluntary.


    Quote finnie wrote: View Post
    it's worth taking a close look at why hundreds of people would rather live in terrible circumstances in the cold, wet winter rather than take a bed in an emergency warehouse shelter. i think it boils down to freedom and privacy with community.

    so what homeless action! and savs are proposing - inexpensive transitional villages with private cottages, security, hygiene and services is a no-brainer. except, it would seem, for our so-called housing experts who refuse to consider this very model that's successful all over the country. guess the big developers who hold powerful sway in this county, won't make enough money on these villages. but the fact is, the taxpayers are taking a real hit on what it costs for emergency services for those who are unsheltered. not to speak of about $100 million a year to try to prevent the empty chanate complex from being vandalized. we're paying for that too. outrageous!
    Yea & Amen !

    There are plenty of burned out areas in this County that could stand some reforestation & horticultural restoration. -For instance, the hills that were burned in the Kincaid fire. If land could be secured in the vicinity of those thousands of acres for Homeless settlements, it would be convenient. For the Homeless do not only need pasture where they may dwell safely without being continually moved on & "Swept" away; they could also use meaningful employment.

    The beauty of putting the homeless to work planting trees & sowing grasses on burned hillsides is that it is work that can be learned, given competent instructors. If the wages are paid on the basis of piece work, it would allow for the workers to produce according to their own level of productivity. It would also be a wise move that would conserve money and prevent slacking on the part of the workers. They should be paid well for their piece work, after they have learned the trade.

    I am just advocating that the Homeless be allowed the opportunity of obtaining a permanent Home - not a band-aid temporary “fix” on the order of Los Guilicos. -Too much like a FEMA Camp for my taste.

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    FEMA Camp

    The Housing & Homeless Crisis is a now a Global phenomenon. It is especially acute in the Western Hemisphere, in North America and the perimeter around Mare Nostrum. Why do you think so many people are coming up from Central America to the Mexican Border? It isn’t just because of Global warming. Several other several other factors are driving that Crisis.

    Primary among which are lack of land (homes) & a dearth of jobs. The refugees at the Southern Border are being oppressed by the oligarchies in the countries of their origin – oligarchies that are kept, and have been maintained in power by the U.S. Fruit Company & the U.S. State Department for the last one hundred and twenty years - ever since the Spanish-American War.

    If the Federal government were actually benign, and had the genuine interests of the Citizens at heart, they would make the "Public Lands" open to Homesteading – as they were in the Lower forty-eight up until 1976. What is needed - throughout the Western Hemisphere - is Land Reform. Here, in the United States, one Solution should present itself to every reasonable Mind : Occupy the Commons. Hopefully, it can be done lawfully, decently & in order.
    Last edited by Mayacaman; 02-17-2020 at 11:01 PM.
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  12. TopTop #157

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Mark Evans (aka Mayacaman) writes

    There are plenty of burned out areas in this County that could stand some reforestation ...
    It would seem that a large part of your plan is reforestation. So people will be trained and paid to dig a hole, plop in a sapling and then move on about 10,000 times. Not very efficient at all.

    Planes Can Plant 1 Billion Trees A Year With Seed Bombs

    And it's not like nothing is being done.

    Reforestation


    Last edited by Barry; 02-14-2020 at 02:08 PM.
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  13. TopTop #158
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    It would seem that a large part of your plan is reforestation. So people will be trained and paid to dig a hole, plop in a sapling and then move on about 10,000 times. Not very efficient at all.
    but that should be a part of a system that's more friendly to the type of people who are having difficulty finding housing, or, for that matter, making sufficient income to pay for necessities. Efficiency isn't the point. If you take as a premise that it's cruel to withhold necessities of life from people who don't or can't buy into the current system, then you should welcome a chance for them to do something useful. This deals with the moral aspect of the issue too - often, people are accused of the heinous character flaw of being lazy, or of being willful freeloaders. And it's also clear that people are emotionally healthier if they contribute. So this kind of work is really appropriate to offer on many levels.

    Plus, 'cuz a robot will soon be able to replace you, will you have the same philosophy then?
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  14. TopTop #159

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    but that should be a part of a system that's more friendly to the type of people who are having difficulty finding housing, or, for that matter, making sufficient income to pay for necessities. Efficiency isn't the point. If you take as a premise that it's cruel to withhold necessities of life from people who don't or can't buy into the current system, then you should welcome a chance for them to do something useful. This deals with the moral aspect of the issue too - often, people are accused of the heinous character flaw of being lazy, or of being willful freeloaders. And it's also clear that people are emotionally healthier if they contribute. So this kind of work is really appropriate to offer on many levels.

    Plus, 'cuz a robot will soon be able to replace you, will you have the same philosophy then?
    Doesn't much matter what my philosophy is, it will happen. BTW, you're not a Luddite are you?
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  15. TopTop #160
    Goat Rock Ukulele's Avatar
    Goat Rock Ukulele
     

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Homeless planting trees and grasses on burned lands............humm I guess that's ok but our local environment has gone through burn and regrowth cycles for millions and millions of years. Left alone will continue to do so far better than we can ever hope to. Lets not be so arrogant that we think we could somehow do a better job.

    Nature thrives in the absence of mans meddling.
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  16. TopTop #161
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote Goat Rock Ukulele wrote: View Post
    ...Left alone will continue to do so far better than we can ever hope to. ...
    the burn and regrowth cycles are largely man-made. Indigenous people all over the world have shaped it for a long time. Nature doesn't really believe in the concept of "better". The ice ages were kind of hard on the existing wildlife, for example - the migration caused by them isn't all that different than what will happen with AGW, 'cuz it's still climate change.

    The arrogance consists in thinking we can control the outcome, not in having an effect. Think of beaver ponds and buffalo herds if you want a non-anthropoid example of animals changing the environment. Or, those damn photosynthesizing critters that put all that poisonous oxygen in the air, incidentally creating an environment ripe for uncontrollable fires.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-14-2020 at 11:48 PM.
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  18. TopTop #162

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    the burn and regrowth cycles are largely man-made.
    I believe burn and regrowth cycles have always been a fact of nature. Problem is, mankind (in their infinite wisdom) has disrupted natures natural cycles.

    One Pundit has opined.

    "Fire suppression, in combination with other human-caused environmental changes, may have resulted in unforeseen consequences for natural ecosystems. Some large wildfires in the United States have been blamed on years of fire suppression and the continuing expansion of people into fire-adapted ecosystems. Land managers are faced with tough questions regarding how to restore a natural fire regime, but allowing wildfires to burn is the least expensive and likely most effective method."
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  19. TopTop #163
    rossmen
     

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    What's really interesting about this is that our county, and I assume many others, has found ways to boot homeless, play wackamole with the least among us, despite recent court rulings. I assume that the reason the county could move on the Robles encampment next to the county bus yard is because none of the people living there had the resources or support to sue. As usual, the court goes to the king, though it's always worth a try if a really good knight shows up.
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  21. TopTop #164

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote rossmen wrote: View Post
    What's really interesting about this is that our county, and I assume many others, has found ways to boot homeless, play wackamole with the least among us, despite recent court rulings. I assume that the reason the county could move on the Robles encampment next to the county bus yard is because none of the people living there had the resources or support to sue. As usual, the court goes to the king, though it's always worth a try if a really good knight shows up.
    The 9th Circuit Court made a ruling in this matter, but it seems a bit sketchy to me.

    From LA Times: Homeless people in California, Western states cannot be prosecuted for sleeping outside if shelter access is lacking, court rules

    “The 8th Amendment prohibits the imposition of criminal penalties for sitting, sleeping, or lying outside on public property for homeless individuals who cannot obtain shelter,” Berzon wrote.

    The court said its holding was narrow. It does not require a city to allow anyone on public property at any time or mandate that cities provide adequate shelter.

    Rather, the court said, “as long as there is no option of sleeping indoors, the government cannot criminalize indigent, homeless people for sleeping outdoors, on public property, on the false premise they had a choice in the matter.”

    Last edited by Barry; 02-16-2020 at 02:02 PM.
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  23. TopTop #165
    rossmen
     

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    This seems to be a rapidly evolving area of law. Locally there was an injunction signed by Santa Rosa and the county, with homeless plaintiffs aided by lawyers from homeless action, after the last big camp breakup in roseland. Guess who got housing then?

    This time, after throwing up its hands for months, the county set up the Oakmont camp and prioritized housing the most vulnerable, ie people really wanting and needing services, also the most likely plaintiffs to work with homeless advocate lawyers. Then the county got around the injunction by declaring a health emergency and threatened arrest unless campers left. People did get two totes of free storage.

    I saw a recent youtube video about another western city where the sheriff is writing just as many tickets for park dwellers, but instead of camping, it's for things like tying rope to trees. The question for our society is housing a right?

    Last edited by Barry; 02-17-2020 at 02:32 PM.
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  25. TopTop #166
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote rossmen wrote: View Post
    ....The question for our society is housing a right?
    the "is XXX a right" position is tricky to me. I understand why some people want to go there. It opens up legal channels that aren't otherwise available, since by definition rights are protected by law.
    Personally, though, for a variety of reasons I want to live in a society where everyone has housing, food and medical care, and just to be complete, has a chance for a way to pass the time in a rewarding way. "Pursuit of happiness" is so 18th-century. Let's shoot higher. Who wants to be comfortable by either ignoring the plight of their neighbors or even worse by becoming callous to it? I think providing housing for everyone improves the area more than fixing potholes. Not that we seem to be able to do that either.
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  27. TopTop #167
    finnie
     

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was passed by the United Nations in 1948.
    Please see Article 25.

    https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Docume...ations/eng.pdf

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    the "is XXX a right" position is tricky to me....
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  29. TopTop #168

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote finnie wrote: View Post
    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was passed by the United Nations in 1948.
    Please see Article 25.

    https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Docume...ations/eng.pdf
    Yep, the UN sure has been busy.


    • The International Convention on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (1965).
    • The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (1966).
    • The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (1966).
    • The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (1979).
    • The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (1984).
    • The Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989).
    • other international agreements have stemmed from the UDHR:
      • Prosecution of indicted war criminals by the International Criminal Court, functioning as of 2002.
      • The “responsibility to protect,” as approved by the General Assembly in 2005, which places a moral obligation on countries to help states wracked by widespread disturbances or civil wars.
      • An August 2006 agreement on a draft convention on the rights of the disabled.
      • Adoption of a Universal Declaration of Indigenous Rights by the U.N. in September 2007.
      • Reducing or eliminating the death penalty in much of Europe and elsewhere.
      • Giving more attention to how transnational corporations affect human rights where they operate.
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  31. TopTop #169
    SonomaPatientsCoop's Avatar
     

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote finnie wrote: View Post
    The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was passed by the United Nations in 1948.
    Please see Article 25.

    https://www.ohchr.org/EN/UDHR/Docume...ations/eng.pdf

    Well, I must ask...have they passed a resolution of a "Universal Declaration of Human Responsibilities" ?

    I don't mean to be flip... but I have been homeless. Hand to mouth much longer. And I never took- and have never wanted "the state" to provide for me.

    Yes... there are many in our society...and our world- who through no fault of their own indeed need help. Many more whose situation is largely if not completely of their own making. It's a slippery slope...
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  33. TopTop #170
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Homeless Emergency on Joe Rodota Trail

    Quote SonomaPatientsCoop wrote: View Post
    Well, I must ask...have they passed a resolution of a "Universal Declaration of Human Responsibilities" ?

    I don't mean to be flip... but I have been homeless. Hand to mouth much longer. And I never took- and have never wanted "the state" to provide for me.
    I've learned, though I don't feel that way myself, that your sentiments are very common. I have a different take on that feeling. Personally, I want to be as self-reliant as possible, but I define that as having capability. I want to be able to avoid being at the mercy of mechanical failure, to have enough knowledge to be able to undertake as many tasks and activities as possible, and in general to be able completely provide for myself and others when necessary. That's for my own psychological well-being and enjoyment, though; I won't elevate it to a virtue.

    However, when I trust someone and they're in a position to do something or provide something, especially if they enjoy doing it, I'm happy to sit back and relax. When I've contributed, or even if I haven't but someone's a willing benefactor, I feel no qualms about accepting things provided by others. I had a friend once who said semi-jokingly "If I can't pay top dollar, I don't want it". It seems to me that an insistence on refusing anything that doesn't feel earned is a similar sentiment. Maybe it's part of the definition of 'earned'. That's a very slippery and personal concept.

    Most people seem to feel they've earned things when I wouldn't necessarily agree that they have. Sometimes people resist the idea that they deserve things unless they can also convince themselves they've earned them. It just seems simpler to devalue both concepts. We all benefit from things we haven't earned, we all get things we don't deserve and also suffer from things we don't deserve. Those concepts don't really make for a better world in my mind.

    To me it's simply a more humane world when people are provided for, whether they deserve it or not, and it's not really a virtue to refuse to accept what society should be providing. (It's not really a vice, either, when it's just a personality trait -- but when it's generalized as if others should share that trait to be 'virtuous', it's destructive). If we as a society stopped being so focused on balancing reward to merit, life would be better. We could stop thinking of the presumably meritorious winners as having more worth than the presumably-deficient losers.
    Last edited by Barry; Yesterday at 11:50 AM.
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