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  1. TopTop #1
    SonomaPatientsCoop's Avatar
    SonomaPatientsCoop
     

    Impeachment hearings...a mistake?

    I know impeachment has been a hot debate on the left for a while. I think Pelosi was right- not only could Trump not be convicted w/o both houses- the evidence of wrong doing- for such a high crime...was (if you removed partisan beliefs) ... lacking....

    I'd say the same today. Trump will supposedly release the transcripts of the call tomorrow (I'm still not sure it won't be a piece of paper scribbled on in Sharpie). But. Again. I'm not sure the "evidence" is damning enough for such a charge.

    I'll say- I've always believed in giving @##&)$!# enough rope to hang themselves. And apparently this call took place a day or two after Muellers testimony gave little ammo for impeachment.

    IDK... maybe I'm jaded. I came of age during the debacle of Iran-Contra...when Americans bitched their soap-operas were being interrupted. Then of course- the Clinton impeachment...

    I simply do not believe that impeachment proceedings are likely to produce any hard evidence. And will do little but polarize both sides... and... will polarize the right far more.

    I say give the @##^)*% more room to truly hang himslef. Because right now- I don't see this as a battle that the left can win. And...given the timing... if they loose this shortly before the election...
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  3. TopTop #2
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Impeachment hearings...a mistake?



    Yes, Trump Is Guilty, but Impeachment Is a Mistake
    This political brawl will leave Trump victorious.

    Donald Trump committed an impeachable offense on that call with the Ukrainian president. But that doesnít mean Democrats are right to start an impeachment process.Remember, impeachment is a political process, not a legal one. There is no obligation to prosecute. Congress is supposed to do what is in the best interest of the country. And this process could be very bad for America:

    This will probably achieve nothing. To actually remove Trump from office, at least 20 Republican senators would have to vote to convict him. If you think that will happen because of this incident, you havenít been paying attention to the Senate Republicans over the past two and a half years.

    Usually when a leader takes a big risk, itís because thereís a big upside. But Nancy Pelosi is taking a giant risk and there is little upside. At the end of this process Trump will probably be acquitted by the Senate. He will declare himself vindicated and victorious in his battle against The Swamp. An ugly backlash could ensue ó in both parties.

    This is completely elitist. Weíre in the middle of an election campaign. If Democrats proceed with the impeachment process, it will happen amid candidate debates, primaries and caucuses. Elections give millions and millions of Americans a voice in selecting the president. This process gives 100 mostly millionaire senators a voice in selecting the president.

    As these two processes unfold simultaneously, the contrast will be obvious. People will conclude that Democrats are going ahead with impeachment in an election year because they donít trust the democratic process to yield the right outcome. Democratic elites to voters: We donít trust you. Too many of you are racists!

    This is not what the country wants to talk about. Pelosi said she would not proceed with impeachment unless there was a bipartisan groundswell of support. There is no bipartisan groundswell, and yet sheís proceeding. According to a Quinnipiac University poll, only 37 percent of Americans support impeachment.
    The presidential candidates all report the same phenomenon. Voters are asking them about health care and jobs and climate change, not impeachment. This week, while all this was unfolding, I was in Waco, Nantucket and Kansas City. I had conversations or encounters with hundreds of people. Only one even mentioned impeachment, a fellow journalist.

    There is a big difference between the conversation Twitter wants to have and the conversation the broader populace wants to have.

    Democrats are playing Trumpís game. Trump has no policy agenda. Heís incompetent at improving the lives of American citizens, even his own voters. But heís good at one thing: waging reality TV personality wars against coastal elites. So now over the next few months he gets to have a personality war against Nancy Pelosi and Jerrold Nadler.

    The Democrats are having a pretty exciting and substantive presidential primary season. This is what democracy is supposed to look like. Why they would want to distract from that is beyond reason. Trump vs. Nadler is exactly the contrast Trump wants to elevate.

    This process will increase public cynicism. Impeachment would be an uplifting exercise if we had sober leaders who could put party affiliation aside and impartially weigh the evidence. It would be workable if Congress enjoyed broad public affection and legitimacy. We donít live in that world. This process is already devolving into the sort of mindless partisan war that causes Americans to be disgusted with Washington. Impeachment is no longer a rare and grave crisis in American life; itís becoming a device parties use when the House and the presidency are in the hands of different parties. Democratic House members have already introduced impeachment articles against Trump on at least four occasions. Itís just another partisan thing.

    This could embed Trumpism within the G.O.P.
    If Trump suffers a withering loss in a straight-up election campaign, then his populist tendency might shrink and mainstream Republicans might regain primacy. An election defeat would mean the people donít like Trumpism. But the impeachment process reinforces the core Trumpist deep-state message: The liberal elites screw people like us. If Trumpís most visible opponents are D.C. lawyers, Trumpism becomes permanent.

    This could distort the Democratic primary process. Itís already obvious that impeachment upstages the Democratic primaries. In the months ahead, the Democratic candidates are going to have a harder time getting attention. Democratic policy debates are going to be obscured. Congressional Democrats will become the most visible party leaders.

    Impeachment will doubtless roil the Democratic primary race in unpredictable ways. The most bellicose candidates may profit as the impeachment wars grow more vitriolic. The moderates may be further marginalized.

    Democrats are running against a man whose approval rating never gets above 45 percent. They just have to be normal to win. Instead, theyíre rolling the dice in a very risky way. I get the need to remove this unfit man from office. But this process will not produce that outcome.

    An election can save the country. An inside-the-Beltway political brawl will not.


    Quote SonomaPatientsCoop wrote: View Post
    I know impeachment has been a hot debate on the left for a while. I think Pelosi was right- not only could Trump not be convicted w/o both houses- the evidence of wrong doing- for such a high crime...was (if you removed partisan beliefs) ... lacking....

    I'd say the same today. Trump will supposedly release the transcripts of the call tomorrow (I'm still not sure it won't be a piece of paper scribbled on in Sharpie). But. Again. I'm not sure the "evidence" is damning enough for such a charge.

    I'll say- I've always believed in giving @##&)$!# enough rope to hang themselves. And apparently this call took place a day or two after Muellers testimony gave little ammo for impeachment.

    IDK... maybe I'm jaded. I came of age during the debacle of Iran-Contra...when Americans bitched their soap-operas were being interrupted. Then of course- the Clinton impeachment...

    I simply do not believe that impeachment proceedings are likely to produce any hard evidence. And will do little but polarize both sides... and... will polarize the right far more.

    I say give the @##^)*% more room to truly hang himslef. Because right now- I don't see this as a battle that the left can win. And...given the timing... if they loose this shortly before the election...
    Last edited by Barry; 09-29-2019 at 10:13 PM.
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  5. TopTop #3
    Mayacaman's Avatar
    Mayacaman
    Supporting member

    Re: Impeachment hearings...a mistake?

    A very informative lecture by professor Allan Lichtman, the author of "The Case for Impeachment"

    Posted on youtube, May 10, 2017

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=els1k6qifGU
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