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  1. TopTop #61
    Mayacaman's Avatar
    Mayacaman
    Supporting member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    kburgess wrote:
    Maintaining any level of positive talk and dialogue is essential and key to providing any sense of communal unity. So much of the time our opinions of a view are based on the conduct of the people expressing that view and less on the facts of it. I love talking to folks who are far outside of my political/value/... system, as I know that somewhere we can always find something of agreement of human value, and then to build on that establishes the trust to continue.
    I'll hand it to you that you are consistently polite and civil in the level of your communication & dialog, Ken. Thank You. -And I agree with the following, being all for the paper ballot:

    Personally I am for Open Source and paper receipt and Instant Runoff to simplify things immensely.
    However, I doubt that the Diebold voting machine itself has a "left bias" -- IT can be used by whichever party or group of criminals is in power, and has the use of the damned thing.

    ps- as far as the voting machines, I think that Diebold and most of the voting infrastructure is held by more of the left side bias. That is what I heard the last time I looked into it.

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  3. TopTop #62
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters


    Note from Barry about
    how to control the visibility of this thread

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  5. TopTop #63

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    Glad you asked! no-one else seems to care

    seriously, I'm no more qualified than Trump to try to impose solutions. And that's one of the big problems with him. He advertises himself somewhat honestly as a bull-in-a-china-shop, break things and see if they get better. For some reason that appeals to many who see things as needing breaking. I take an engineer's perspective: when things are broken, re-evaluate the goals of the system, figure out the forces that impact its function, and try to restructure the system to account for its previous failures. Many of these goals can be agreed on by most people, and many of the forces are equally non-controversial. If you don't like the engineer analogy, use judo instead. Usually you get better results by guiding rather than opposing these forces.
    Does Trump break things and then offer no replacement or does he recognize that things are broken and offer solutions. Did you miss the NH Trump rally last night???
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  7. TopTop #64

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Why I'd never vote for Sanders.

    Everyone knew he had been low balled in his election bid. But he gave up the good fight and at the convention, he went limp and endorsed Hillary. But even that pales with his use of racist labeling. He's shown himself to be no Ralph Nader. He sold out and joined the crowd of Democrats in playing Identity Politics.

    "Sen. Bernie Sanders recently sat down with rapper Cardi B for a campaign video set in a Detroit nail salon, where they discussed their shared love of FDR, increasing the minimum wage, canceling student debt and defeating Donald Trump in 2020.
    “We have this bully as a president, and the only way to take him out is somebody winning,” Cardi said.
    “We’ve got to get rid of Donald Trump, obviously,” Sanders agreed, “because Donald Trump is an overt racist. He’s way out there.”

    Sorry Bernie. You're old, white and rich. You don't have a chance.
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  8. TopTop #65
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    Does Trump break things and then offer no replacement or does he recognize that things are broken and offer solutions. Did you miss the NH Trump rally last night???
    Seems I misplaced my tickets to the rally...

    What proposed solution are you referring to?
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  10. TopTop #66
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    Does Trump break things and then offer no replacement or does he recognize that things are broken and offer solutions. Did you miss the NH Trump rally last night???
    thank god, yes. But since you seem to indicate he actually offered solutions, that the MSM didn't notice (seems perfectly plausible) or suppressed (seems pretty paranoid), I looked and found this...and sorry, I don't think I missed anything. Admittedly, there's so much bloviating that it's easy to miss anything concrete. Some other day I might have indulged myself by pulling lots of quotes and commenting on them. Sadly, you'll all have to forego the pleasure of reading those, at least for today.

    But in general, all I found was the usual. He says things are great, quotes some things that indeed are going well, and claims that but for him, they'd be awful. If you admire him I guess you buy that. If you feel like being skeptical, he's not interested in convincing you. Several times he lies outright, others he mischaracterizes his opponents. I guess he is offering a solution when he says he wants to impose a voter ID, or eliminate 'Obamacare'. And he touts his achievement of putting in judges.

    I guess you might see him offering solutions in a broad sense - he often posits a problem that isn't one, and says it'll get fixed (like the voter ID to stop all that fraud). He also said he'll "keep guns out of the hands of insane people", which should solve that problem.

    There is some mention of an effort to add transparency to drug pricing, and a couple of other modest government actions that I suppose deserve some credit. Good on him for those. But the bulk of it reads like a parody.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 11:28 PM.
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  12. TopTop #67
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    What I heard is that the Dems broke into his servers and stole all of his campaign lists and then started a neg campaign against him until he had no choice but to endorse her. That seems to be one of the bigger and yet totally untold stories of the Dem's hacking and collusion.

    I think that we all realize that there is a big difference between the large scale party politics and our local opinions on all of the various platforms and that just because we might tend towards 'Liberal/Progressive' or 'Independent/Conservative' does NOT mean that we might endorse what all of the various public platforms are doing and thus do NOT have to feel obligated to defend them as a representative.
    Just felt that I had to state that one for the record.

    Any people out there have any other facts/opinions/perspectives??
    Thanks,
    Ken.
    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    Why I'd never vote for Sanders....
    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 11:31 PM.
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  13. TopTop #68
    Cascade's Avatar
    Cascade
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    I was a Bernie supporter. Unfortunately he didn't have the votes to win the convention. I would have been very upset if he had tried to run as a 3rd party candidate. He took the high road, and did what he could to keep Trump from winning. I still think he would have made a better candidate than Hillary, but the media didn't give him the coverage he needed.

    ~Cascade
    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    Why I'd never vote for Sanders....
    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 11:27 PM.
    Cascade Cook www.aphroweb.net Re polyamory. cascade(at)hisys.com 707-794-7334
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  15. TopTop #69
    Cascade's Avatar
    Cascade
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Ken, I appreciate your consistent politeness, and agree with what you say in the quote below.

    I'm wondering what you think Trump is accomplishing. I'm starting to think of him as the Great Destroyer - systematically putting people in charge of important departments whose life work has been contrary to the purpose of the department, and doing other things to make our world unsafe, such as:
    • deny the existence of climate change and try to bury evidence of it, so that we get closer and closer to the point of no return
    • Throw out nuclear ban treaties, so we may end up destroy ourselves even sooner by nuclear war
    • Stir up racial hatred by his words and defund groups which are working to reduce domestic terrorism
    • Ignore and get rid of the scientists and diplomats who have the knowledge, expertise and experience that is needed to function well in the world
    • Teach our allies that we can't be trusted while praising dangerous dictators
    • Destroy our environment by turning national parks and lands and oceans over to companies to mine them and drill for oil. And weaken the endangered species act even when we're in the midst of the sixth great extinction
    • Help the Saudis get access to nuclear information that will let them have nuclear weapons as well
    Etc., etc.

    I would like to see us building a country where people are willing to work together for the benefit of all. One where everyone has the opportunity to earn a decent living - to have enough to eat, a decent place to live, the health care they need. I'm guessing that this is something that you would support as well.

    Longing for a world of cooperation,
    Cascade
    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    Maintaining any level of positive talk and dialogue is essential and key to providing any sense of communal unity. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 11:53 PM.
    Cascade Cook www.aphroweb.net Re polyamory. cascade(at)hisys.com 707-794-7334
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  17. TopTop #70

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    Seems I misplaced my tickets to the rally...

    What proposed solution are you referring to?
    Too many to list. You'll have to check the replay. Btw, the Trump campaign will send you a DVD for a measly $5.00
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  18. TopTop #71
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    What I heard is that the Dems broke into his servers and stole all of his campaign lists and then started a neg campaign against him until he had no choice but to endorse her. That seems to be one of the bigger and yet totally untold stories of the Dem's hacking and collusion.
    or, maybe, it's not true. 'I heard'?

    obviously there's no partisan difference between people eager to think the worst things are true of the other side. But if you base your partisan leanings on mostly those, stories that would be cool if true, and may be being covered up somehow, you're basing your leanings on shakey ground. Instead, why not look at what's not very disputable at all? To pick one at random, Trump's clearly destroying environmental protections. He thinks (or his supporters think, I won't give him the credit) that they've gone overboard and impose unnecessary constraints on business and on the ability of his cronies to buy land. (yep, I'm painting it kinda prejudicial again...). Do you agree? He thinks the immigrants are causing problems, I'm not quite sure how except they're maybe MS13 rapists, and they haven't come in legally, and (though this is the sketchiest claim) they take jobs from Americans. (look at the news story today about health-care workers in Maine). But he does this by implementing cruel policies. Maybe Obama did too, maybe the people are asking for it. But they're undeniably cruel. Is that ok with you too?

    Maybe the dems promise unrealistic things. Maybe you like your private insurance and worry that they'll take it away (I kinda doubt it'll happen). But are their policies cruel? are they more oriented toward helping, even if you think they're a bit feckless? Even the Squad, if you think they hate America, seems to be oriented to fighting against cruel policies. You don't agree they're cruel policies? or that even if they are, they're necessary??

    this is why I can't support the right. They're ok with racists, even if they are horribly offended that they may be considered tainted by that unfair association. They're ok with cruel policies, able to explain them away as necessary or nothing new. They won't take a chance that new policies might benefit people, because maybe the policies won't, or undeserving people might exploit them, or they might cost so much that things have to change a lot.

    I meant to slow down on the 'contributions' here, dammit, but this topic really really resonates with me. And as so many here have said, Ken, you seem to be hopeful and care about things being better. It's just shocking that you've chosen to harness yourself to the particular star you have.
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  20. TopTop #72

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    ACCOUNTIBILITY*****ACCOUNTIBILITY*****ACCOUNTIBILITY
    Citizens, sing it! A-COUNT-TI-ABILITY
    The Democrats and their minions have for too long promised and not delivered. They have not been held accountable. Their superstars of identity politics, fly in, fly out (Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton) and do nothing but intimidate and ransom businesses. Hello Chicago! They pose as the champions of the people. Promises made, promises broken. Today’s Democratic Party is not the party of JFK and even Bill Clinton. Does anyone remember when Clinton and Obama made speeches about stopping the flood of illegal’s? Nah, that’s gone out the window. Obama deported 800,000, anyone remember? Progressives and their buddies, the Socialists, in the quest for votes and acolytes, are now throwing shade on Obama and Clinton. The people of Chicago, Detroit and yes even Maryland dispute the Democratic talking points. Heck, even the stronghold of the Democrats (Sf, CA) can’t clean their streets of poop, pee, needles and the homeless. Hasn’t it been too long? Business as usual gets old, doesn’t it? Haven’t you observed history and seen the lack of change? Even with the first Black President, control of the Senate and the House, the democratically controlled cities are indeed still cesspools. Bernie in 2015 said that Baltimore appeared as a Third World Country. And now you blame the President for the same observation? Wake up people. The Democratic parties Identity Politicking is not good for the country. Why continue to go down a path that has failed? Progressive/Socialist, it all means the same. Higher taxes and bigger government. Bigger government with non-elected staffers with the power to compel you. Hide if you have to, stay silent if you have to, but vote for the President that has raised every standard of living indicator. Lowest Black/Hispanic/Asian/Women unemployment for many decades
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  22. TopTop #73
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    Too many to list. You'll have to check the replay. Btw, the Trump campaign will send you a DVD for a measly $5.00
    Not funny. I'm losing patience with your participation here.

    I do know he pivoted away from background checks for gun purchases, taking cover with "it's a mental health problem", however his budgets and health care proposals have sought to decrease funding for mental health, and he's taking no action to thoughtfully address the problem in any way.
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  24. TopTop #74
    Mayacaman's Avatar
    Mayacaman
    Supporting member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Barry wrote:

    I do know he pivoted away from background checks for gun purchases, taking cover with "it's a mental health problem", however his budgets and health care proposals have sought to decrease funding for mental health, and he's taking no action to thoughtfully address the problem in any way.

    With regards to how Trump is playing the recent shootings in Dayton &
    El Paso, I saw this meme yesterday, on a friend's facebook page. I not going to post the meme itself, just the link. I think It says it all.
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  26. TopTop #75
    sealwatcher's Avatar
    sealwatcher
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Sourcing on your meme, please.

    Quote Mayacaman wrote: View Post

    With regards to how Trump is playing the recent shootings in Dayton &
    El Paso, I saw this meme yesterday, on a friend's facebook page. I not going to post the meme itself, just the link. I think It says it all.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater
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  28. TopTop #76
    Mayacaman's Avatar
    Mayacaman
    Supporting member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters


    Sealwatcher, It seems that it came from a fellow named "Joe Enroughty"- But I suspect the original source is, as it says in the upper left-hand corner,
    "Big Easy".... That's an online "Progressive" Magazine out of New Orleans...

    Proto-Source:
    https://www.facebook.com/BigEasyMagazine/

    Source: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10215255351761484&set=a.1166180239074&type=3&theater


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  30. TopTop #77
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote sealwatcher wrote: View Post
    Sourcing on your meme, please.
    I haven't checked, but I believe these are selections of accurate quotes.
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  31. TopTop #78
    american dream's Avatar
    american dream
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    The country did not elect him, the Electoral College did. Hillary won the popular vote, though by how much is unclear since all votes were not counted.
    Quote Mayacaman wrote: View Post
    kburgess wrote:

    This is undeniably true. - Unless there was voter fraud via the Diebold voting machines - which is altogether in the realm of the possible. ..
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  33. TopTop #79
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Maybe you have forgotten but the Entire-Purpose of the Electoral College is to prevent election results to be based on a popular vote alone. We are a REPUBLIC and NOT a democracy. A democracy is public/mob rule and the lesser important voices get drowned out, thus we have the Electoral college. If we did not have a representative voting system, election results would be solely decided by all of the urban areas an no representation for the rural ones.

    You may not like that idea, but our Founding-Fathers were a LOT smarter than you on this matter as they had witnessed many examples of how democracy destroy's nations and strips away their individual rights as the masses continually vote for politicians who promise more benefits and deliver nothing and turn the nation from democracy to socialism to communism. Take a look around, do you want to live in a system like Europe?, Russia?, China??? They may all sound great in little countries like Denmark in the news clips, but the reality is a far cry different.

    Individual rights is the only answer, and teach the other swimmers how to swim better rather than giving them all flotation devices, and I can assure you that Nancy Pelosi's Election Reform bill will do NOTHING to help represent the unheard voices of this country and help to introduce more support for the smaller parties like Green, Libertarian, Constitution, ...

    Just my thoughts,
    Thanks,
    Ken.

    Quote american dream wrote: View Post
    The country did not elect him, the Electoral College did. Hillary won the popular vote, though by how much is unclear since all votes were not counted.
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  35. TopTop #80
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Hello Cascade,
    Thanks for the good post and respectful questions.

    As I have mentioned in a number of previous posts, he IS the Great-Destroyer, but not the destroyer of the good in the world, but destroyer of stripping out the rot of the system that has been taking us down a very bad path for over 40 years with issues of un-payable debt, vastly unfair trade agreements, empire building, rigging unfair elections, a out of control CIA and my biggest one, ... Un-Sound FIAT based Private-Central-Banking Federal Reserve Money.

    From my standpoint if he can deal with some of these major ones, I am OK with some level, even though I do not agree with a lot of his positions like Oil drilling in Natl Parks, relaxing envronmental standards, 5G and some of the smaller ones.

    During his campaign I put together the following Pro's and Con's and then today put together my Desired list,
    see below.

    Further answers to your questions within text,
    Thanks,
    Ken.

    Quote Cascade wrote: View Post
    Ken, I appreciate your consistent politeness, and agree with what you say in the quote below.

    I'm wondering what you think Trump is accomplishing. I'm starting to think of him as the Great Destroyer - systematically putting people in charge of important departments whose life work has been contrary to the purpose of the department, and doing other things to make our world unsafe, such as:
    • deny the existence of climate change and try to bury evidence of it, so that we get closer and closer to the point of no return
      Climate-Change is happening, but all of the original studies did not include any influence of the changes with the Sun impacting our weather. It has since been proven that there are many very active dynamic changes in with the Sun that impact us all the time. When we look at the total data, yes there is huge change, but most of it is Not due to carbon, but more to city building and deforestation, and the US is still more aggressive than most other nations for pollution controls and clean technology. Clearly if we can get to the point where the suppressed tech of clean-energy is released by de-powering the oil companies, the solution will be quick in hand.
    • Throw out nuclear ban treaties, so we may end up destroy ourselves even sooner by nuclear war
      The nuclear ban treaties are only good if they are being cooperatively followed, they were not, so no need to put up the pretense of them doing any good. Throw them out, expose the fraud, and start again if the other nations then want the protection of them.
    • Stir up racial hatred by his words and defund groups which are working to reduce domestic terrorism
      Not sure what you are referring to here, please explain.
    • Ignore and get rid of the scientists and diplomats who have the knowledge, expertise and experience that is needed to function well in the world
      Also not sure to what you are referring to.
    • Teach our allies that we can't be trusted while praising dangerous dictators
      We did a pretty good job in North Korea, and exposed the unfair practices of Europe and US relations, and exposed Britain for providing domestic spying on his campaign and on the American people for no good reason at all other than supporting their own Dem political agenda's.
    • Destroy our environment by turning national parks and lands and oceans over to companies to mine them and drill for oil. And weaken the endangered species act even when we're in the midst of the sixth great extinction
      I do not agree with many of his environmental policies, and also am not totally up on all the details of it, only so much I can pay attention to.
    • Help the Saudis get access to nuclear information that will let them have nuclear weapons as well
      I might have missed this one, but clearly there was a HUGE amount of info released by Bill Clinton and Obama to nuclearize Iran. Again, not up on it all.
    Etc., etc.

    I would like to see us building a country where people are willing to work together for the benefit of all. One where everyone has the opportunity to earn a decent living - to have enough to eat, a decent place to live, the health care they need. I'm guessing that this is something that you would support as well.

    Longing for a world of cooperation,
    Cascade
    I agree that we all want cooperation, but we have a very large house filled with rot, filth, bugs, termites, rats and more, but with a moderate coat of paint and nice incense so that we cannot see or smell most of it. Sometimes you have to take down the house before you can make it right. This is like a live-in renovation with your family, your neighbors and in-laws all at the same time. A Full-Load,
    Thanks,
    Ken.
    Trump Issues

    Pro's/Con's written during his campaign and election
    Pro’s

    1. Non Politically Party/History Encumberment
    2. Successful Business Mind for Finance, Projects and Debt
    3. Can Do Attitude
    4. Return America back to the people
    5. Secure borders and rule of law
    6. Good trade deals and America First
    7. US infrastructure projects
    8. Reduced corp/individual taxes
    Con’s

    1. Limited Political Awareness
    2. Limited Statesman/Public Servant Awareness
    3. Very Concerning Cabinet Appointee’s
    4. Women Scandals
    5. Self Centered/Self Serving
    Desired’s

    Updated today
    (This list might be a bit ideal, but that is the way that I think, and if I do not define it, it can never get done)

    1. Nationalize the Fed
    2. Equalize Trade Deals
    3. Secure the Borders
    4. Asset Backed Currency
    5. 911 Investigation
    6. JFK Investigation
    7. Pedophilia/Human Trafficking Prosecution
    8. Truth & Reconciliation Program for Congress, Govt Staff, Media, etc.
    9. Campaign and Presidency Collusion Investigation/Prosecution,
      FISA Declas, etc.
    10. RDS 12 Point Election Reform, Including
      Campaign Financing Limitations/No Super-PAC’s, Open Debates, Voter/Citizenship ID, Open-Source Technology, Paper Receipts, Instant-Runoff, …
    11. Release of Suppressed-Technologies for Clean Energy, Flight, Health, Env Cleanup, etc.
    12. Disclosure/Elimination of Congressional Hush Money Slush Funds
    13. Line Item Veto
    14. Reality-Based Economic Indicators, Revised Govt Accounting/Disclosure Standards, FASB 56, etc.
    15. Dept of Peace
    16. CIA/FBI/Intelligence Community Reform
    17. International Intervention Reform for CIA, Global Military Presence, etc.
      Replace w/Missions of Intl Health, Sanitation, Food Production, Education, Economic Growth, Trade and Diplomacy skills.
    18. SEC Reform and Derivative Regulation
    19. Removal of Petro-Dollar Supremacy, and Oil Cartel control of Global Political and Economic Infrastructure
    20. Removal of the Military-Oil-Intelligence-Industrial-Complex
    21. Opening of Health Care/Drug Industry for more progressive treatments, natural medications, cannabis, etc.
    22. Honesty Standards/Regulation/Oversight for all Media and Big Tech
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  37. TopTop #81
    Mayacaman's Avatar
    Mayacaman
    Supporting member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    american dream wrote:
    The country did not elect him, the Electoral College did. Hillary won the popular vote, though by how much is unclear since all votes were not counted.
    Interesting point, american dream - though i admit i was not aware of that. -And who has ever met a member of the "Electoral College"? They don't generally get interview'd on television, at election time. One more holdover from the patriarchal system that the "Founding Fathers" foisted upon us in their counter-revolution of 1789.

    Frankly, I prefer the older "Articles of Confederation" that was drafted by the revolutionary Continental Congress of 1777. It was modeled on the Iroquois Constitution, and was intrinsically both more "democratic" & also held out a greater degree of Freedom for Individuals & for the member "States" as well...

    On that note, I'd like to suggest that Progressives reconsider the legality & the advisability of the gambit of Succession. It has been argued, since 1861, by a number of Constitutional Legal experts, that, in Theory, the South had a Right to Secede from the "Union" in 1861.

    Now, to be sure, the rationale for secession in 1861 - the wish to retain the Institution of Slavery - was a piss-poor reason to leave the Union. -But is there not a much better Cause Now? Would not we, on the Left Coast, be better off, if we could put all of our social energy into making homelessness cease? - into Peaceful projects of all kinds?

    -Into Land Reform & re-instituting the Homestead Act, that Reagan so bluntly rescinded early in 1981? -Into building that fabled "Ecotopia"? -If We, collectively, do not wish to be ruled by Donald Trump, can we not do better?

    Just putting it out there. I am not, by any means advocating violent revolution - just an Initiative & Referendum that can be renewed on a bi-annual basis. I think that the U.S. could safely be subdivided into five or six "nations." Each new nation could be at peace with each of the other former portions of the "United States;" have some kind of Confederation of Mutual Aid & Civil Relations, -and yet be separate 'nations'.

    Part of this process would be an Initiative and Referendum to allow the Southwest to become "Atzlan." This would be a salve & a sop to the Indigenous & to the Hispanics from South of the Border. -Though from my perspective Northern California, Northern Texas, Nevada, Utah & Colorado should not be included in that bargain. If this were put to a vote, which would be renewed every two years, we might be able to avert the coming Race War.

    Each of these "new nations" could start out without the burden of a "national debt" and with a Constitution based on the Iroquois Constitution / Articles of Confederation model. This is a very Utopian Idea, I admit - and has little chance to succeed, I know.

    Perhaps I should start another thread on this subject? Just wondering if it would get any traction...

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  38. TopTop #82
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    ...You may not like that idea, but our Founding-Fathers were a LOT smarter than you on this matter as they had witnessed many examples of how democracy destroy's nations and strips away their individual rights as the masses continually vote for politicians who promise more benefits ...
    really? I can't think of any examples myself, but maybe you can? (as for a lot smarter, some were exceptional but I bet they had their share of lesser lights). I think you base a lot of your political philosophy on this kind of unwarranted faith in some (your characterization of the prez comes to mind) and insufficiently critical acceptance of the negative characterizations of Pelosi et. al. that's put out by him and the (non-msm) media friendly to him. The problems with the dems seem easy for you to see, but you see them as disqualifying while the critiques of the current regime don't seem particularly disturbing to you.
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  40. TopTop #83
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Hello Podfish,
    As I have posted before, we all have our unique perspectives that allow us to see Truth's that are unique to each one of us. Some of us like the minutia, and others the larger picture.

    You have talked about a number of your thoughts on how/why I might have come to the rationale that I have and yes I probably have a very different perspective than most of this community and the more progressive left. Oh well.

    We did not have 5 candidates to choose from in 2016, we had 2. One dud and one unknown and potentially risky play. I chose the later, and from the criteria that I just cited in a previous post, he is doing OK, but yes I still do have some concerns. I would love to see the Barr investigation completed quickly, and I would love to get all this Epstein and FISA stuff resolved as that will reveal a LOT of rot of the system.

    How I got onto this horse is my choosing, and I still hope that he has not become overly compromised by bad advise and is just playing a ruse to keep his enemies close.

    He did not just land into the seat because he was famous and rich, but was brought in by military patriots who needed him to do the job, and thus I have to conclude that there is a lot of military strategy of intelligence and counter-intelligence in his actions that may not make sense to those of us on the outside. I am not an expert in it, but do understand the basics.

    Obviously a long and deep conversation,
    Thanks for the post,
    Ken.

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    or, maybe, it's not true. 'I heard'? ...
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  42. TopTop #84
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    Trump Issues

    Pro's/Con's written during his campaign and election
    Pro’s

    1. ..
    Con’s


    1. ..
    Desired’s

    Updated today
    (This list might be a bit ideal, but that is the way that I think, and if I do not define it, it can never get done)

    1. ..
    gotta give you credit, you've put some thought into this. I still can't understand how you think trump lives up to most of what you've put in as 'pros' and I certainly don't see how you think he's capable or interested in furthuring any progress towards your desires. I get that the status quo, to you more represented by the Democrats than Republicans (???) isn't making much progress in directions you hope for, but why you think those desired goals will be more likely to be realized if someone first creates political rubble still escapes me. Maybe you have some eastern European country in mind as a model? Seriously, is there any historical precedent for the trajectory you hope to see?
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  44. TopTop #85
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    That is the scary thing, we have no recent example of anything of this kind.

    The closet thing which is really not too far off was the creation of the USA with the abuses of Britain on to us as the colonies and we having to take up arms to change the game. Today, in the Plan that I was aware of, they had the option of having a military coup, but wanted to see if Trump could do it peacefully before pulling out the guns against Hilary. This is all from various interviews that I have heard from ex military and CIA operatives who were working on the Plan.
    Thanks,
    Ken.
    ps- As for my Desired list, they are a mix of things that I would like to see myself and things that I am hoping that Trump will lead into from little breadcrumbs that he seems to be dropping. kb.
    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    ... Seriously, is there any historical precedent for the trajectory you hope to see?
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  46. TopTop #86
    Mayacaman's Avatar
    Mayacaman
    Supporting member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    kburgess wrote:
    He did not just land into the seat because he was famous and rich, but was brought in by military patriots who needed him to do the job, and thus I have to conclude that there is a lot of military strategy of intelligence and counter-intelligence in his actions that may not make sense to those of us on the outside. I am not an expert in it, but do understand the basics.

    That sounds like the rationale of the Q faction, Ken. Would you care to join in and contribute to my [somewhat moribund] thread over here, Ken? I would appreciate you sounding in to air your thoughts on "Q."

    As far as your list of "Desired" points. I've got to say that they are almost all good, & also, for the most part, {except for one or two points - which might be twisted in an authoritarian manner} they are all actually "Progressive." Ha !

    There was a fellow, a certain Bill Picenti, who lived out Bennett Valley way, who was a real Citizen - one who always showed up at every City Council meeting & at all of the Board of Supervisors meetings, too. He was a member of the John Birch Society - a card carrying member. Yet he had very many ideas that were radical, & even 'socialist.'

    -For instance, he would say: "No one should be homeless or hungry {without food or shelter} in America. This country is a rich land, and everyone - even the non-productive - should have at least their basic human needs met." -Words to that effect; pretty much verbatim...

    Once, Elden McFarland told him, after hearing that spiel, "That's Socialism, Bill." And Bill Picenti answered and said "I don't care what you call it; I call it "Americanism."" You remind me of old Bill Picenti, Ken. In some ways You are an unconscious progressive - even though you seem to have the customary "conservative" aversion & allergy to the word.
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  48. TopTop #87
    Cascade's Avatar
    Cascade
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Hello Ken,

    I appreciate your willingness to engage, and write about what draws you to Trump - as well as the problems you see. I'm not at all surprised to see that there's an overlap in the things that we'd like to see in our country. However it seems like we have difference sources of information, so that our "facts" don't always agree.

    I've embedded responses in blue.

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    Hello Cascade,
    Thanks for the good post and respectful questions.

    As I have mentioned in a number of previous posts, he IS the Great-Destroyer, but not the destroyer of the good in the world, but destroyer of stripping out the rot of the system that has been taking us down a very bad path for over 40 years with issues of un-payable debt, vastly unfair trade agreements, empire building, rigging unfair elections, a out of control CIA and my biggest one, ... Un-Sound FIAT based Private-Central-Banking Federal Reserve Money.

    The information I've seen shows that the Republicans generally run up a higher debt than the Democrats - and Trump is doing the same. The unfairness of trade agreements, in my opinion, is that they have given too much power to corporations and don't do enough to protect workers, the environment, etc. I haven't seen that the Great Destroyer is destroying any rot. Far from emptying the swamp he's invited the swamp creatures to dinner, to feast on tax payer money (you may agree, since you indicate a concern about his cabinet appointees). I don't like our empire-building - but that's been going on as long as we've been a country.

    If you're looking for a revolution - be aware that most revolutions result in chaos and often in worse conditions than existed prior to the revolution. Think of the Arab Spring. A would-be dictator (see how he admires the ability of his favorite dictators to simply order something be done, and how he tries to do the same thing) is not going to do a good job of creating a positive environment.

    I don't know what your issues with the monetary system are, but do you think we'd be better off with Bitcoin and more new technologies like that?


    I agree that we all want cooperation, but we have a very large house filled with rot, filth, bugs, termites, rats and more, but with a moderate coat of paint and nice incense so that we cannot see or smell most of it. Sometimes you have to take down the house before you can make it right.

    It would help to have plans for something better so that you don't end up with something like Yugoslavia, or like Lebanon (a boy I knew in High School was from Lebanon, and at that time (> 50 years ago) he could point proudly to the way the Christians and the Muslims lived together peacefully). You need tools for rebuilding, but if you've destroyed all the tools in the process of taking down the rotten house, you'll have nothing left except misery.

    Trump Issues

    Pro's/Con's written during his campaign and election
    Pro’s


    1. Non Politically Party/History Encumberment

      I would also like to see a change to our system so that we could have successful third parties. As I recall in another post you mentioned Rank Choice Voting or Instant Runoff Voting - I'm strongly in favor of that. It would be a way to allow us to vote for the person we really want without fearing that will cause our nightmare to be elected.
    2. Successful Business Mind for Finance, Projects and Debt

      Hm, Trump's business ability is negligible. His companies have gone through bankruptcy, he screws his workers and contractors, he thinks he can have his way by bullying and he has cost the taxpayers a lot of money. Just one example for now - think Trump University.
    3. Can Do Attitude

      Can do whatever he wants/or that will benefit him personally - is that the attitude you want?
    4. Return America back to the people

      Not sure what you mean by that
    5. Secure borders and rule of law

      I really don't know what needs to be done about the borders. We're a nation of immigrants, and at the same time, it helps to have a common culture - at least a meta culture that we agree on
    6. Good trade deals and America First

      It doesn't help to throw out trade (and other) deals just because of animus towards your predecessor.
    7. US infrastructure projects

      What has he done about that?
    8. Reduced corp/individual taxes

      Most of the benefit of reduced taxes has gone to corporations and rich individuals. And the deficit has been skyrocketing.
    Con’s

    Yep, important cons.


    1. Limited Political Awareness
    2. Limited Statesman/Public Servant Awareness
    3. Very Concerning Cabinet Appointee’s
    4. Women Scandals
    5. Self Centered/Self Serving
    Desired’s

    I certainly agree with some of your Desireds, and definitely not with all. In a lot of cases we need to clarify what problem we're trying to solve, and look for the best resolution.

    Updated today
    (This list might be a bit ideal, but that is the way that I think, and if I do not define it, it can never get done)

    1. Nationalize the Fed
    2. Equalize Trade Deals
    3. Secure the Borders
    4. Asset Backed Currency
    5. 911 Investigation
    6. JFK Investigation
    7. Pedophilia/Human Trafficking Prosecution
    8. Truth & Reconciliation Program for Congress, Govt Staff, Media, etc.
    9. Campaign and Presidency Collusion Investigation/Prosecution,
      FISA Declas, etc.
    10. RDS 12 Point Election Reform, Including
      Campaign Financing Limitations/No Super-PAC’s, Open Debates, Voter/Citizenship ID, Open-Source Technology, Paper Receipts, Instant-Runoff, …
    11. Release of Suppressed-Technologies for Clean Energy, Flight, Health, Env Cleanup, etc.
    12. Disclosure/Elimination of Congressional Hush Money Slush Funds
    13. Line Item Veto
    14. Reality-Based Economic Indicators, Revised Govt Accounting/Disclosure Standards, FASB 56, etc.
    15. Dept of Peace
    16. CIA/FBI/Intelligence Community Reform
    17. International Intervention Reform for CIA, Global Military Presence, etc.
      Replace w/Missions of Intl Health, Sanitation, Food Production, Education, Economic Growth, Trade and Diplomacy skills.
    18. SEC Reform and Derivative Regulation
    19. Removal of Petro-Dollar Supremacy, and Oil Cartel control of Global Political and Economic Infrastructure
    20. Removal of the Military-Oil-Intelligence-Industrial-Complex
    21. Opening of Health Care/Drug Industry for more progressive treatments, natural medications, cannabis, etc.
    22. Honesty Standards/Regulation/Oversight for all Media and Big Tech
    Thanks for the discussion,
    Cascade
    Cascade Cook www.aphroweb.net Re polyamory. cascade(at)hisys.com 707-794-7334
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  50. TopTop #88
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Yes, I would be glad to join in on the discussion on Q. I do follow him and always intrigued by his perspective on things. It is a true relief to see that there is a larger plan in the works and has the total air of a counter-intelligence military operation. Set the trap, and let them hang themselves as they think that they are going in for the kill on you.

    As for being a progressive, I do not mind that topic at all, although I would define a difference being a progressive from a political standpoint which is where I like to call myself a more independent/conservative/libertarian, and then from a social standpoint. My main thing is to resolve the financial and legalistic/transparency infrastructure of the country and so that 'We the People' can actually see a more accurate picture of our country and learn to accept our responsibility in maintaining it, and then do so.

    It is the bringing back the role of 'Civic's' in the classroom and discussion and having it include, US Govt, Financial Management, Banking/Money Creation, Trust's, Contracts, Commercial Remedy and more. That is a bit of my own wish list, so I would be happy with about half of that list in actuality.

    I will look at the thread,
    Thanks,
    Ken.

    Quote Mayacaman wrote: View Post
    kburgess wrote:
    That sounds like the rationale of the Q faction, Ken. Would you care to join in and contribute to my [somewhat moribund] thread over here, Ken? I would appreciate you sounding in to air your thoughts on "Q."...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-18-2019 at 01:17 PM.
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  52. TopTop #89
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Hi Cascade,
    Yes we can debate each point individually and I do appreciate all of your thoughts on the matter.

    A few points,
    The Pro's/Con's list was written as I was considering his merits in 2015/2016, so yes we can extend the perceptions to today, but not quite a fair comparison. I do still hold to most of those initial opinions although it would be adjusted a bit.

    Second,
    No one in DC has the luxury of being able to directly put out legislation that is in the pure sense of what they would like done. It is always about what will get through and supported, thus part of the audience is to the public awareness side of us the American people, but the other part is to the operational audience of the people who will actually supporting it and executing the tasks of completion.

    The goal is to have the operational audience more subservient to the 'We the People', as it was originally intended, and less having an allegiance to its own ruling class, regardless of what color of secret society that you might pick. From what I infer, there are 2 or 3 factions duking it out, but still a bit up in the air.

    Ben Fulford is the best one to discuss this topic if you follow him.

    I agree with your points of things going to corporate benefactors, but would not totally agree it is just because Trump is rich and wants to feed his buddies, I think that it is more that he is trying to establish another level of allies and power base leading into 2020, where if he stays in, will try to execute more substantial things on his agenda.

    Let me remind you that the way that the power structure of the country was initially designed to look was as follows:
    1. God
    2. Proper use of Language/Words/Learning/Education
    3. Contracts/Agreement/Barter/Trade
    4. Power of the People/Commons/Collective Agreement/Bargaining
    5. Govt of Communities/States and then Fed, all under the authority of the fairly represented People
    6. Banking and Money as a standardized medium of exchange
    7. Private Businesses
    8. Corporations, etc.
    And today we have that list a bit inverted

    1. Banking and Money as a standardized medium of exchange
    2. Corporations, etc.
    3. Govt of World, Fed, States and then Communities all under the authority of the Banks and Corporations
    4. In whatever order you want,
      Proper use of Language/Words/Learning/Education
      Contracts/Agreement/Barter/Trade
      Power of the People/Commons/Collective Agreement/Bargaining
      Private Businesses
    5. God
    All of this can be traced back to the war debts of the revolutionary war, the Constitution, War of 1812 and many things onwards as a history of commercial international bankruptcy, and the general issue of banking and settling of municipal debts, and what to use as the underlying asset base. Consequently there is a timeline for ALL of this, and not very pretty.
    Too much for now,
    Ken.
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  54. TopTop #90
    Cascade's Avatar
    Cascade
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Hi Ken,

    You seem to believe that Trump's ultimate agenda is beneficial, and that there are people behind him that want to let "We the People" be in charge. Everything I have seen of the Great Destroyer gives me the opposite impression. I don't think either he or the major people supporting him give a damn about anyone but themselves (and probably their families and maybe sometimes their colleagues). Do you remember James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan? As I recall, he said something to the effect that God gave us this world to use fully, and so we should use it up before the end times. I tend to think that the major Trump supporters are like that, and don't care about what they leave for the next generations.

    Trump keeps promising that if they can get rid of the ACA (Obamacare), he'll have something better - but appears to have no actual plan. Why would anyone believe him? That seems to be his MO - promise pie in the sky with no plan, no idea about how to get there. There's a real problem with destroying something expecting the end results to be better, when there's no vision about how that will come about.

    What gives you confidence that someone(s) will create a better future?

    I had never heard of Ben Fulford before, but a quick search does not inspire me to read further.

    ~Cascade
    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    ...The goal is to have the operational audience more subservient to the 'We the People', as it was originally intended, and less having an allegiance to its own ruling class, regardless of what color of secret society that you might pick. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-20-2019 at 11:31 AM.
    Cascade Cook www.aphroweb.net Re polyamory. cascade(at)hisys.com 707-794-7334
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