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  1. TopTop #31

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    dude, really? you think that was an accidental slip of the tongue? or an inadvertent reveal of my true feelings after all? I won't claim it's all that eloquent of a response, but it's not intended to be read without some sense of context either. If you're happy with 'gotcha', go to town with it.
    Accidental? Nah, it was your inner truth, I knew that. Context needed??? Yea, sure. Sounds like TDS to me.

    Liberal Tears
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?=zOnI_6NhR2o&list=PL4k16X62ciwJ3xbK4gJqpqShmmMHktqUk&index=14&t=0s
    Last edited by Barry; 08-15-2019 at 11:35 AM.
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  2. TopTop #32
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Hi Juna,
    No I do not support most of them, but that is not the reason I voted for or would not vote for him.
    I very much support environmental protection and clean energy and that was a bit concern with his campaign, but I figured that what he was claiming to do over ruled the downside, and lets face it all other Pres's have had a much worse track record for completing campaign promises than DJT, like those promises or not.
    Thanks,
    Ken.
    Quote juna wrote: View Post
    ...Do you support drilling in national parks
    or near water sources?...
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  4. TopTop #33
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    You don't hear hate in Trump's speeches?! It's hard to respond to that one, Ken. But how about his actual policies? I wish you would respond to my comment to cyberanvil listing just a few of his most salient policies such as huge tax cuts for the rich, disdain for the poor, etc,etc.
    Not exactly sure what you want me to respond to, the tax cut were for everyone and I suspect that he had to throw in some goodies to make sure that it passed and got support for the next 2 years.

    As for the issues with the poor, not sure what you are talking about. He is trying to end sanctuary cities which is good, and stop the mass migration over the border by putting a more fair and just immigration system. Maybe go talk to Nancy as she is the one roadblocking it all and causing the real damage in that situation. The caravans are organized events to fund all the folks to leave their country and overwhelm our borders so that the Dems can have a much larger voter base so long as we do not require voter ID. Very bad. Outside of that, if we are going to do anything it should be to help stabilize the countries on our southern sides and keep them from coming up in the first place.

    Do you open your door to any person who needs food and a place to stay?
    Why should we! As he says, it is to be based on merit and not just a free for all.
    Thanks,
    Ken.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-15-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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  6. TopTop #34
    Valley Oak's Avatar
    Valley Oak
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Discussions with Trump supporters is generally a waste of time. They live in an alternate reality of "facts." It is not possible to reason with unreasonable people. You cannot reason with racist, homophobic, misogynistic, superstitious barbarians who don't believe in democracy or the most basic of human rights. They want a permanently White America and anyone who is not a straight WASP like them is instinctively hated as the "other" or the enemy. That is exactly what Trump has done with immigrants and other minorities. And Republican voters have bought this administration's lies and misinformation hook, line, and sinker because they are indeed racist themselves.

    This shameful administration is the last gasp of the American Right Wing! Enjoy it while it lasts because Trump is going to lose by a landslide in 2020, guaranteed.
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  8. TopTop #35
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote Valley Oak wrote: View Post
    Discussions with Trump supporters is generally a waste of time. They live in an alternate reality of "facts." It is not possible to reason with unreasonable people. ...
    I'm with you on some of that. I (obviously) don't have a big concern about wasting time.

    But not all trumpies are completely in Hillary's group of deplorables. Or unreasonable - 'reason' is a tool that can be used for good or ill. Sometimes it's true you're hammering on cheese. The part I struggle to understand is the idea that was well expressed, actually several times, that trump and his supporters "may not be racists (or ...) but they sure are comfortable with those who are".

    As seen on this thread, some seem to be able to look right past the biblical beam in their eye and find the mote in others'. I don't recognize the trump they describe. They haven't been able to - or to be fair again, to have tried - to explain why the trump we see isn't the trump that exists. That's where the waste of time comes in to me. We get what seems to be purely imaginary representations of what trump wants to do and how he sees the world. Sadly this exposes what I've come to see as 'symmetry' - I know that they could write the same words aimed the other way, and firmly believe that it counts as reason.
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  10. TopTop #36

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote Valley Oak wrote: View Post
    Discussions with Trump supporters is generally a waste of time...
    Does this mean that you'll not be playing here anymore?
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  11. TopTop #37
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    That leaves me with the same request I have made with Ken and Ron and you: please answer the specific questions I have been asking you. I have given repeated examples of some of the most egregious things the Trumpsters have done that appear to many of us as mean and cruel. So why don't you just tell us why they don't seem mean and cruel to you? And why are you so hostile and disrespectful to me?

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    Why do you assume yourself to be the speaker of truth? Or here is an easier one, I don't agree with you and your attempts to set yourself up for a grand reveal. Why don't you just come out with it. What if I don't think Trump is mean and cruel? Where does that leave you?
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  13. TopTop #38
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    But I still want to come to a deeper understanding of their attitudes and psychology. And all right wingers are not necessarily the same. People like Ken and Ron don't come across to me as mean and cruel. They sincerely want to communicate, and that makes me even more curious to understand them. Cyberanvil is another matter, but I'm still curious about her.
    Quote Valley Oak wrote: View Post
    Discussions with Trump supporters is generally a waste of time. ....
    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 12:21 PM.
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  15. TopTop #39
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    I totally agree with you that we should help stabilize the countries on our southern sides! I think the horrible conditions there are what drive desperate people to throng to the US, where they know very well it will be no picnic. And what meddling are we doing in those countries to contribute to the awfulness?

    But your idea that the Democrats will have a much larger voting base doesn't make sense to me. As people become citizens over time this is probably true, especially as Republican policies are sure not deigned to win converts with these folks! But most of these people will not be able to become citizens for a long time.

    Your notion that the tax cuts were for everyone is absolutely contrary to everything I have heard. The biggest tax cuts by far are for rich people like Trump and his friends who are already bloated with money. The cuts for the middle class were quite small and destined to end in a few years. Am I mistaken?
    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    Not exactly sure what you want me to respond to, the tax cut were for everyone ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 12:24 PM.
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  17. TopTop #40
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    But I still want to come to a deeper understanding of their attitudes and psychology.
    Here is a great resource:



    A Complete Psychological Analysis of Trump's Support
    Science can help us make sense of the president's political invincibility.
    Posted Dec 27, 2018
    Bobby Azarian Ph.D.

    I highly recommend you read the full article!
    Here are the main points (each of which is explored in the article)

    1. Practicality Trumps Morality
    2. The Brain’s Attention System Is More Strongly Engaged by Trump
    3. America’s Obsession with Entertainment and Celebrities
    4. “Some Men Just Want to Watch the World Burn.”
    5. The Fear Factor: Conservatives Are More Sensitive to Threat
    6. The Power of Mortality Reminders and Perceived Existential Threat
    7. The Dunning-Kruger Effect: Humans Often Overestimate Their Political Expertise
    8. Relative Deprivation — A Misguided Sense of Entitlement
    9. Lack of Exposure to Dissimilar Others
    10. Trump’s Conspiracy Theories Target the Mentally Vulnerable
    11. Trump Taps into the Nation’s Collective Narcissism
    12. The Desire to Want to Dominate Others
    13. Authoritarian Personality
    14. Racism and Bigotry
    Plus it includes the following fascinating video... again worth a full watch!
    Spoiler alert: The answer is... LSD!

    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 12:24 PM.
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  19. TopTop #41
    Mayacaman's Avatar
    Mayacaman
    Supporting member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    kburgess wrote:
    This COUNTRY elected him, and the Left has been doing everything possible to disqualify him and that election. Clearly CA is not the State that elected him, and there are a LOT of people that love what he is doing. Go talk to them and find out the world that they are living in, and how he is speaking for them. They are NOT stupid, but they are also not CA, NY, or OR or any other deep blue State.
    This is undeniably true. - Unless there was voter fraud via the Diebold voting machines - which is altogether in the realm of the possible. But it is true that a LOT of people do love what he is doing. That reality is still a little mysterious to me, since I can see the downside & the darkness on the periphery of "what he is doing" pretty clearly.

    I also am not prey to the sort of good-think-fulness that it seems necessary to have in order to sustain "faith" in the POTUS. Nevertheless, I heartily agree with you, Ken, in your admonition to the members of the Forum here @ WaccoBB, on this Left Coast of ours, to "Go talk to them and find out the world that they are living in, and how he is speaking for them..."

    I have one friend, out of many old acquaintances, who is actually pro-Trump. This fellow used to be a revolutionary, a leftist, and hung with the Panthers back in '68. A very unusual case, I will say. He's been in Oklahoma for twenty-odd years and has metastasized into being a Okie, himself. Red State fever, they call it.

    I haven't given up on him as a friend, and we still talk - and argue - politics on the telephone. I think it is important that We are able to still talk.
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  21. TopTop #42
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    I appreciate your analysis of the sad facts in Baltimore, cyberanvil, although you still couldn't resist some snarky insults.

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    ...

    FACT CHECKING President Trumps Statements On Baltimore & Democrat Elijah Cummings district:

    *ALLEGATION: Baltimore is considered the worst-run city in America.
    *ANALYSIS: True. The BBC featured the city in a scathing report on poverty in America. At least 25 percent of the people in Cummings' congressional district live in poverty. "If you want to know what poverty in America looks like, well this is it," the BBC reporter declared. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 12:26 PM.
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  23. TopTop #43
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Very interesting, Barry, thank you! I've always felt that personal psychology has a big role in orienting one's political attitudes.

    I'm especially interested in the narcissism, because as I have previously mentioned, for some reason I have gotten on the Republican's fundraising mailing list. I get several emails a day, and they always refer to me as one of their top, special, and most elite supporters. Their messages are short and full of ego-pumping. They say that when I donate I will appear at the very top of their list and President Trump himself will see my name! When he doesn't see my name he actually asks why! They also say I will be entered into a raffle and have a special opportunity to have dinner with the great man himself!

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  25. TopTop #44
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Once again Ken, to whom the question was addressed, gave a respectful answer saying that this was one thing about the current Republicans' agenda that he didn't like--while cyberanvil spits out her typically hostile response. What is eating you, cyberanvil?

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    These "Gotcha" questions are hilarious and at the same time sad. How can any discussion proceed with these kind of obviously false/misleading and agenda driven questions? You know the answers that you're looking for. So just spit out your spill.
    How many times do you beat your wife? Is this what we're reduced to?
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  26. TopTop #45

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote Mayacaman wrote: View Post
    This is undeniably true....
    Hard for a discussion to proceed when Trumpies are called Deplorables and supporters are all labeled as Racists.
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  27. TopTop #46

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    That leaves me with the same request I have made with Ken and Ron and you: please answer the specific questions I have been asking you. I have given repeated examples of some of the most egregious things the Trumpsters have done that appear to many of us as mean and cruel. So why don't you just tell us why they don't seem mean and cruel to you? And why are you so hostile and disrespectful to me?
    So why don't you just tell us why they don't seem mean and cruel to you?
    Hasn't it been explained previously? Your questions are bogus. You believe all the negative adjectives and I don't. If I don't believe your premise, how can I answer?
    And why are you so hostile and disrespectful to me?
    OK, your a nice and gentle guy. But you associate yourself with the Democratic Resist/Label/Hate/ Destroy/ANTIFA/get in their face crowd and what do you expect? Sorta hard to pick a diamond out of a pile of dung.
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  29. TopTop #47
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Well finally someone has seemed to describe us accurately!! Ha!!!
    As far as 2020, as you guys pretty much own the MSM, Google, FB, Twitter, and YT, yes you might have a chance, but if it was truly fair fight, you would not stand a chance.
    Cheers,
    Ken.
    Quote Valley Oak wrote: View Post
    ...This shameful administration is the last gasp of the American Right Wing! Enjoy it while it lasts because Trump is going to lose by a landslide in 2020, guaranteed.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 12:28 PM.
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  30. TopTop #48
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    .....you guys pretty much own the MSM, Google, FB, Twitter, and YT,...
    I know this isn't easy for you to believe, but maybe 'we' own them on the merits of our positions. As many great minds have observed, facts tend to have a liberal bias. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but that doesn't make them right. (symmetry again, I know...)
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  32. TopTop #49
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    The basic liberal policy for voting is not to require any ID for citizenship, so that anyone can register to vote, and thus illegals are prime candidates for the Dem platform. CA is their model for how they want things to go, and look at the mess that they have created here with ridiculous taxes, homeless, filth and more. Their plan to use the immigration to improve their voter base and eliminate the 2 party system is well known. How many R's do you ever see here on our ballots? Not an issue of them not being around, but there is no requirement that all positions have 2 parties running.

    As for the tax cuts, I am not the middle class, so have not delved into all of the details. I am on disability from major cancer trying to make the best of what I have.
    Thanks,
    Ken.
    ps- Why do you think that there is such a stink over the census question. It has been on the census for years until Obama who removed it and now Trump is a racist for trying to put it back!!! Hmmm, Think about it...
    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    I totally agree with you that we should help stabilize the countries on our southern sides! ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-16-2019 at 12:29 PM.
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  33. TopTop #50

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

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  34. TopTop #51
    podfish's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    You believe all the negative adjectives and I don't. If I don't believe your premise, how can I answer?
    another quibble. In a rational argument, the 'main premise' is a statement accepted without proof, upon which an argument is made. He's not offering a 'main premise'. He's offering various observations about trump's behavior, based on evidence. You aren't refusing to accept his premise - you're ignoring his evidence.
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  36. TopTop #52

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    Once again Ken, to whom the question was addressed, gave a respectful answer saying that this was one thing about the current Republicans' agenda that he didn't like--while cyberanvil spits out her typically hostile response. What is eating you, cyberanvil?
    Another false assumption. I'm happy as heck, but I'm concerned about your thin skin. Maybe I'll burn one and check with you later.
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  37. TopTop #53
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Personally I prefer to avoid all of the psychology and stereo-lyzed opinion, and try to talk to the folks 1 to 1 on the facts of the situation and leave the speculation aside. We are not all knowledgeable in all areas but we do all have certain areas of expertise, and if we have a 'Dialogue' to discuss the situation of facts and only then that of interpretation, we can have a bit more rational conversation and possibly reach a positive outcome (or at least offer the best chance of giving respect, dignity and honor)

    Not sure if that is included on the list, but just my way of doing things,
    Thanks,
    Ken.
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  38. TopTop #54

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    I know this isn't easy for you to believe, but maybe 'we' own them on the merits of our positions. As many great minds have observed, facts tend to have a liberal bias. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but that doesn't make them right. (symmetry again, I know...)
    "As many great minds have observed, facts tend to have a liberal bias."

    Unnamed sources huh?
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  39. TopTop #55
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    ...ps- Why do you think that there is such a stink over the census question. It has been on the census for years until Obama who removed it and now Trump is a racist for trying to put it back!!! Hmmm, Think about it...
    False! Another fact with a liberal bias!

    NPR: FACT CHECK: Has Citizenship Been A Standard Census Question?
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  41. TopTop #56
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Maintaining any level of positive talk and dialogue is essential and key to providing any sense of communal unity. So much of the time our opinions of a view are based on the conduct of the people expressing that view and less on the facts of it. I love talking to folks who are far outside of my political/value/... system, as I know that somewhere we can always find something of agreement of human value, and then to build on that establishes the trust to continue.

    Good thoughts
    Ken.
    ps- as far as the voting machines, I think that Diebold and most of the voting infrastructure is held by more of the left side bias. That is what I heard the last time I looked into it. Personally I am for Open Source and paper receipt and Instant Runoff to simplify things immensely.

    Quote Mayacaman wrote: View Post
    This is undeniably true. - Unless there was voter fraud via the Diebold voting machines ...
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  42. TopTop #57

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    another quibble. In a rational argument, the 'main premise' is a statement accepted without proof, upon which an argument is made. He's not offering a 'main premise'. He's offering various observations about trump's behavior, based on evidence. You aren't refusing to accept his premise - you're ignoring his evidence.
    His various observations are bogus and I refuse to legitimise them. I'm not ignoring "observations", I'm dismissing them. Is that so hard to understand?
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  43. TopTop #58
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    The basic liberal policy for voting is not to require any ID for citizenship, so that anyone can register to vote,
    Incorrect! You are conflating requirement of registering to vote and requirements to vote.

    ID is required to register to vote
    ID is not required to vote

    Wikipedia: Voter ID laws in the United States
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  45. TopTop #59
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Thank you occihoff,
    Respectful dialogue is where any conversation starts in its ability to honor other peoples personal perspectives w/o needing to resort to various levels of flame and degradation, We all want and need to be respected by and within our community for if things got really bad and we had to truly depend on those around us for our genuine survival, that would be one of the tests of credibility of who would be accepted to live, and who would be left to die.

    Many good thoughts,
    Thanks,
    Ken.
    ps- I also make it a point to sign most everything that I write so as not to create the exit of anonymity.

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    Once again Ken, to whom the question was addressed, gave a respectful answer saying that this was one thing about the current Republicans' agenda that he didn't like--while cyberanvil spits out her typically hostile response. What is eating you, cyberanvil?
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  47. TopTop #60
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Interesting,
    I guess it is the veil of long vs short form and the representation of facts.
    As far as the 'liberal bias', this representation issue takes place all the time, so we do not need the flame here, but the fact check is good.
    Thanks,
    Ken.

    Quote Barry wrote: View Post
    False! Another one fact with a liberal bias!

    NPR: FACT CHECK: Has Citizenship Been A Standard Census Question?
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