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  1. TopTop #1
    Runningbare's Avatar
    Runningbare
     
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  3. TopTop #2
    John Eder's Avatar
    John Eder
    Form Seb City Council Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Check out: https://www.yescalifornia.org/

    Their platform:

    The 2019 #Calexit Independence Referendum

    In the Spring of 2019, Californians will go to the polls in a historic vote to decide by referendum if California should exit the Union, a #Calexit vote.

    You will have this historic opportunity because the Yes California Independence Campaign will qualify a citizen’s initiative for the 2018 ballot that if passed would call for a special election for Californians to vote for or against the independence of California from the United States.

    This is a very important question. It is the responsibility of this campaign to explain what a yes vote will mean for you, your family, your community, our state, our country, and our world. We have designed this website to answer many of these questions and look to you to ask more.
    "As the sixth largest economy in the world, California is more economically powerful than France and has a population larger than Poland. Point by point, California compares and competes with countries, not just the 49 other states.”
    In our view, the United States of America represents so many things that conflict with Californian values, and our continued statehood means California will continue subsidizing the other states to our own detriment, and to the detriment of our children.

    Although charity is part of our culture, when you consider that California’s infrastructure is falling apart, our public schools are ranked among the worst in the entire country, we have the highest number of homeless persons living without shelter and other basic necessities, poverty rates remain high, income inequality continues to expand, and we must often borrow money from the future to provide services for today, now is not the time for charity.

    However, this independence referendum is about more than California subsidizing other states of this country. It is about the right to self-determination and the concept of voluntary association, both of which are supported by constitutional and international law.

    It is about California taking its place in the world, standing as an equal among nations. We believe in two fundamental truths: (1) California exerts a positive influence on the rest of the world, and (2) California could do more good as an independent country than it is able to do as a just a U.S. state.

    In 2016, the United Kingdom voted to leave the international community with their “Brexit” vote. Our “Calexit” referendum is about California joining the international community. You have a big decision to make.

    Please join me in supporting this movement.

    John Eder
    Last edited by Barry; 11-12-2016 at 09:42 AM.
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  5. TopTop #3
    kane's Avatar
    kane
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    .
    I do feel many Rump voters were voting against Hillary, rather than for Rump.

    As far as the Democrat Party....it was plain and clear for a long time to anyone willing to open their eyes that Ms. Clinton was a problematic candidate; I'm not saying all of the garbage floated about her was true, but sooo many were against her that many were willing to vote EVEN for Rump. We all knew that Hilary had toxicity which would likely cost her many votes that another Democrat candidate might have received, and yet the party pushed her onto us because "it was her turn"...lame, lame, lame people.
    Feel the Burn yet?

    When Obama and Rump met in the Oval Office, Rump looked scared shitless to me, as if he never expected he might have a chance to win and would then have to actually PERFORM! He is in waaay over his head.

    I am appalled at the disenfranchisement evidenced throughout the South and East!
    I am appalled at the gerrymandering, from both parties!
    I am appalled that our fellow Americans hate America so much that they would hire this phony POS!


    Faced with the spectre of an orange-mopped Prez, another electoral college "selected" election, back from the crypt Newt Gingrich, skeezy Chris Christie, Mitch McConnell, the rest of the Rethuglican lineup, and the soon-to-be-fascist supreme court, and because I don't want to burden Canada, I have just switched my party affiliation to the California National Party, a center-left movement to secede from the USofA.

    https://www.californianational.party/en_US/

    Is it worthy? I don't know yet.
    Is it possible? I don't know yet.
    Is it a farce? I don't know yet.

    I like their platform, such as it is so far.
    Our economy places us at #5 if we were a nation; we pay more federal taxes than we receive back from Washington; in fact, some of that surplus from California goes to subsidize many of the very Red states who have become our critics and soon our inquisitors, and who receive up to $1.40 for every $1.00 they pay in federal taxes! I'm talking Arkansas, Texas(some years), Louisiana and more.

    In the chart below, notice California in the lower-right, meaning high GDP per citizen, and low federal dependency, among the lowest, while those Red states upper-left indicate higher federal dependency and lower GDP per citizen. This means those Red states ARE ON WELFARE, partially from California.
    Recognize any states there? MS, AL, MO, SC, AZ hmm, .....ring any bells? They whine about entitlements, then reach their hands deeper into uncle Sam's pockets than most other states.
    Not only do Red states not want to pay their full fare on the American bus, but they also want to determine the destination, the route, who can ride on the bus, and the rules of conduct for all riders! Gotta change!

    By ending our subsidies for freeloading Red states, through secession, we could reduce our tax rates on CA citizens and small businesses.


    Name:  screenshot_888.jpg
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    California would be in fine shape as a nation, given our ports, our Ag, our Tech industry, our abundant solar resources.

    We could lease land to the now 49 state USA, if we chose to.
    We could enact an "Almost-Free" Trade Agreement(AFTA) with America, charging but small fees for road and rail access to our wonderful marine ports for import/export of their non-GMO goods.
    We could control trans-pacific telecom cables, allowing us to eliminate spying by our own government.
    We could ban transfer of GMO's through our nation.
    We could eliminate the mining act of 1872, which enables so much destructive activity that continues in our national wild lands.

    I just know that at 57 years of age, I need to move in a new direction, even if it may not bear fruit in my lifetime. How many more elections am I willing to see shifted from the popular vote by people who are largely unknown and who are unelected? ZERO! Done with that!
    We will collectively be burdened by the actions of the Rump administration and his Congress for many, many decades, perhaps much longer.
    The snakes are now in charge of ALL the houses of government.
    I have never feared for my nation as I do now.

    OK, I'm done....for now ;)
    I feel better already!
    Thanks Barry.

    kane
    Last edited by Barry; 11-12-2016 at 04:39 PM.
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  7. TopTop #4

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    I’m all for the Cal-exit movement. Don’t think it will happen but you got my vote.

    If you consider how badly we get are underrepresented compared to those smaller states it is staggering and means that our government will always be to the right of citizens. We should have about 10 Senators to have equal representation in the Senate . Then there is the electoral college in which every state gets 1 vote per congressional district plus 2 for every state. So that also leaves us underrepresented per capita. This two per state has allowed trump to become president even though Clinton got more votes. We pay more tax and get back less by percentage than almost any other state.


    Cal_exit lets do it. We may not get all the way out but if we were able to give them a real scare in Washington we might get back some of our tax dollars that we will need to provide healthcare for the people of this state when the repubs sack Obamacare.
    Last edited by Barry; 11-12-2016 at 04:39 PM.
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  9. TopTop #5
    KittyW's Avatar
    KittyW
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Is a California National Party possible?

    Possibly.

    A billionaire immigrant entrepreneur named Shervin Pishevar in Silicon Valley is saying he's ready to fund it. He's got some fire in the belly around this movement according to this article:
    https://www.engadget.com/2016/11/10/...nia-secession/

    "For Pishevar, Trump's anti-immigrant rhetoric is personal: His father fled Iran after being marked for death by the Ayatollah Khomeini. Moving to the save haven of the US, Pishevar Sr. drove a cab while studying for his PhD and encouraged his son to embrace the immigrant experience the country offered. Pishevar believes that it's not just him who feels outraged at the result, and will throw their weight behind a separation movement."

    There are plenty of billionaire immigrants in Silicon Valley who might want to join him. And regular folks too.

    Before anyone screams about the 1%, read the actual platform and see how it sits with you. Consider that it would take large sums to bankroll such a cause. Sounds like he's made his money pretty honestly -- from tech innovation. One of the things California has more of than any other state.

    BTW, the link to the CA National Party in the previous post didn't work. Here's the right link: https://www.californianational.party/en_US/

    Could this be the silver lining many of us hope for -- even as a symbolic uprising?
    Last edited by Barry; 11-12-2016 at 04:40 PM.
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  11. TopTop #6
    jesswolfe's Avatar
    jesswolfe
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Haven't we had enough of tearing each other apart? There are people in this state that are on welfare or on Social Security or SSDI, or who depend on Medicare and Medi-cal and food stamps. And to be honest, we are just as scared of folks who didn't vote for Trump who still characterize "the other side" as moochers, who do not deserve what "we" have.

    If we secede and people still come out swinging with exactly the same attitudes that caused so much of a rift in our country in the first place, it won't solve anything, except to allow the rich here to take their money and go home. Is that really the attitude you want to perpetuate? Are you any better than those "others"?

    If secession is going to be a topic, let's talk about why it's a good idea, not what we want to take from everyone else we don't agree with, because some of those people live here too.

    I've had enough. We are all in this together.

    Jessica
    www.daughterofthediviners.com
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  13. TopTop #7
    Shepherd's Avatar
    Shepherd
    Supporting Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    This discussion and John's post have merit to them. People have been discussing Northern California as leaving the American Empire for decades. It is sometimes suggested that a new union be formed that would include Oregon and Washington. Some have suggested that this new union be called Cascadia. This is certainly unlikely to happen during my lifetime.

    Everything that lives dies. When the Soviet Union empire dissolved, various countries were formed and re-formed. I appreciate the historic American values, though not the American Empire, especially its war-making, which threatens the entire globe, with either Hillary or Trump at the front.

    Quote John Eder wrote: View Post
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  15. TopTop #8
    BManna
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Hi Kane,

    Would it be possible for you to post a link to view Trump meeting in the White House? I had looked briefly for you tubes unsuccessfully. Thanks! Beth

    Quote kane wrote: View Post
    ...When Obama and Rump met in the Oval Office, Rump looked scared shitless to me, as if he never expected he might have a chance to win and would then have to actually PERFORM! He is in waaay over his head...
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  17. TopTop #9
    Runningbare's Avatar
    Runningbare
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Quote jesswolfe wrote: View Post
    If secession is going to be a topic, let's talk about why it's a good idea, ...
    Glad you asked. Here is a list of several potential benefits, taken from YesCalifornia.org:

    THE CASE FOR INDEPENDENCE IN 9 SIMPLE POINTS
    Being a U.S. state is no longer serving California’s best interests. On issues ranging from peace and security to natural resources and the environment, it has become increasingly true that California would be better off as an independent country. Here’s a summary of why we think so.
    1. PEACE AND SECURITY
    The U.S. Government spends more on its military than the next several countries combined. Not only is California forced to subsidize this massive military budget with our taxes, but Californians are sent off to fight in wars that often do more to perpetuate terrorism than to abate it. The only reason terrorists might want to attack us is because we are part of the United States and are guilty by association. Not being a part of that country will make California a less likely target of retaliation by its enemies.
    2. ELECTIONS AND GOVERNMENT
    California’s electoral votes haven’t affected a presidential election since 1876. On top of that, presidential election results are often known before our votes are even counted. So, why should we keep subjecting ourselves to presidents we play no role in electing, to 382 representatives and 98 senators we can’t vote for, and all the government officials and federal judges appointed by those very same people we don’t elect.
    3. TRADE AND REGULATION
    The U.S. Government maintains a burdensome trade system that hurts California’s economy by making trade more difficult and more expensive for California’s businesses. As long as California remains within this burdensome trade system, we will never be able to capitalize on the trade and investment opportunities that would be available to us as an independent country. On top of that, the United States is dragging California into the Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement which conflicts with our values.
    4. DEBT AND TAXES
    Since 1987, California has been subsidizing the other states at a loss of tens and sometimes hundreds of billions of dollars in a single fiscal year. As a result, we are often forced to raise taxes and charge fees in California, and borrow money from the future to make up the difference. This is partly why California presently has some of the highest taxes in the country, and so much debt. Independence means that all of our taxes will be kept in California based on the priorities we set, and we will be able to do so while repaying our debts and phasing out the current state income tax.
    5. IMMIGRATION
    California is the most diverse state in the United States and that is something we are proud of. This diversity is a central part of our culture and an indispensable part of our economy. As a U.S. state, our immigration system was largely designed by the 49 other states thirty years ago. This immigration system has since neglected the needs of the California economy and has hurt too many California families. Independence means California will be able to decide what immigration policies make sense for our diverse and unique population, culture, and economy, and that we’ll be able to build an immigration system that is consistent with our values.
    6. NATURAL RESOURCES
    Certain minerals and other natural resources like coal, oil, and natural gas are being extracted from California at below market value rates by private corporations with the permission of the U.S. Government. While a small portion of the revenue is shared with us, our share has been withheld during times of sequestration. That means the U.S. Government is paying their debts with royalties collected from selling off California’s natural resources. Independence means we will gain control of the 46% of California that is currently owned by the U.S. Government and its agencies. We will therefore take control of our natural resources and be the sole beneficiary of royalties collected if and when they are extracted from our lands.
    7. THE ENVIRONMENT
    California is a global leader on environmental issues. However, as long as the other states continue debating whether or not climate change is real, they will continue holding up real efforts to reduce carbon emissions. The truth is this country accounts for less than five percent of the world’s population yet consumes one-third of the world’s paper, a quarter of the world’s oil, 27 percent of the aluminum, 23 percent of the coal, and 19 percent of the copper. Independence means California will be able to negotiate treaties to not only reduce the human impact on our climate but also to help build global resource sustainability.
    8. HEALTH AND MEDICINE
    The Affordable Care Act was enacted by the U.S. Government to lower the cost of health care and expand health insurance coverage to the uninsured, yet millions of Californians still lack access to quality health care because they can’t afford it. For many, access to hospitals and medicine is a life or death issue. Independence means we can fund the health care programs we want and ensure everyone has access to the medicines they need because our taxes will no longer be subsidizing other states. Finally, California can join the rest of the industrialized world in guaranteeing health care as a universal right for all of our people.
    9. EDUCATION
    California has some of the best universities but in various ways, our schools are among the worst in the country. Not only does this deprive our children of the education they deserve, but it also costs taxpayers billions in social services and law enforcement expenses linked to lacking opportunities resulting from poor education. Independence means we will be able to fully fund public education, rebuild and modernize public schools, and pay public school teachers the salaries they deserve. On top of that, independence means freedom from federal education policies and one-size-fits-all standards set by political appointees on the other side of the continent.
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  19. TopTop #10
    spam1's Avatar
    spam1
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Quote John Eder wrote: View Post
    Check out: https://www.yescalifornia.org/
    The 2019 #Calexit Independence Referendum
    John Eder
    You're solving the wrong problem. The problem is Federalism: centralizing power and control (and money) in the federal government. Each party, when it gets control, wants more power centralized so they can more easily distribute their ideas to the whole nation.
    Rather, we should fight to devolve power (and money) from the federal government to the states, and from the states to the local cities and counties. And to protect the rights of people in the 'less enlightened' states, we must enforce the constitutional right of individual liberty.

    There are two thoughts on liberty:
    1) Individuals have innate rights and the majority, through the government action, is limited in way it can remove liberty. -
    -or--
    2) Individuals have only those rights granted to them by the majority, through government action.

    Granting the federal government of powers to create a utopian society (control of drugs, or seat belts, or what you can grow) also gives them enormous power to abuse. If that power is reduced, it's not so important who the president is. Fight the right problem. #CalExit is an extreme example of this concept, but we needn't go so far. Just reduce federal power and you get the same effect. BTW: that's pretty much what the original #Brexit was about.
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  21. TopTop #11
    John Eder's Avatar
    John Eder
    Form Seb City Council Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Quote jesswolfe wrote: View Post
    Haven't we had enough of tearing each other apart? There are people in this state that are on welfare or on Social Security or SSDI, or who depend on Medicare and Medi-cal and food stamps. And to be honest, we are just as scared of folks who didn't vote for Trump who still characterize "the other side" as moochers, who do not deserve what "we" have. ...
    I am a Social Security recipient, and I wholeheartedly support this movement. The funds that people like me now collect were earned by us- we paid into Social Security for many years (46 years in my case)- and it is our money (the same applies to SSDI). I am unclear how the transfer of these assets would occur, but Washington D.C. is essentially "holding" these funds in trust for us, like a retirement fund would- they are not the rightful "owners" of these funds.

    But let's say that the current U.S. Government says that it won't cooperate. There are currently 3 Army, 7 Marine Corps, 9 Navy, 6 Air Force, 4 Reserve/National Guard facilities and 1 Defense Logistics Agency distribution facility located in California, cumulatively worth billions and billions of dollars. How much annual rent could a sovereign California charge the Air Force to rent Vandenberg Air Force Base (missile launch facility) or Coronado Island Naval facility (port and airfield) in San Diego? The current U.S. Government refuses to pay rent? Fine- no access- cut all road and rail access to all U.S. military facilities in California- sort of like the U.S. Naval facility at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba (I am a USAF veteran, and am not anti-military).

    Yes, there are many civilian jobs at stake, but the military critically needs many of these bases. Don't forget- many of these facilities cannot be duplicated easily elsewhere in the other 49 states, due to climate or terrain considerations, and the cost of duplication would be astronomical. California is #2 in the U.S. in terms of defense spending, at approximately 57 billion dollars annually (about 11% of total defense expenditures). However, we are #31 in terms of percentage of total state GDP, at 3.1%. This includes defense contractor spending. Contractors relocating? How likely is that the next generation of cyber defense will come out of Arkansas? Also, this spending will likely decrease anyway, becoming less and less a vital component of our GDP, as the military looks to cut costs in the post-Bush wars and now potentially Trump semi-isolationist era.

    Additionally, as pointed out above, California exports money to many of the other 49 states- funds that would be available potentially to offset a loss of Federal funds (California gets back slightly less than $1.00 for every dollar that our residents pay in federal taxes- a net loss. California's 2015 GDP (Gross Domestic Product) was 2.4 trillion dollars (the nearest U.S. state was Texas, at 1.6 trillion), which ranks California between Great Britain and France in terms of GDP.

    In terms of population, California is estimated to have approximately 39 million residents in 2016. Poland, at an estimated 38 million residents in 2016 and Canada, at 35 million estimated residents, are close to our population. Yet, Poland has an estimated 2016 GDP of 467 billion, with Canada's estimated 2016 GDP at 1.5 trillion- about one trillion dollars less than California's estimated GDP. Ironically, both of these countries have varying forms of government-administered health care.

    And then there is the aspect of charging fees to access California ports and airports for passenger travel and goods shipment- just like any other sovereign nation. A high percentage of shipments of goods arriving from or departing to Asia from the contiguous United States transit through California.

    An alliance with Oregon and Washington state would seal the deal (hey, we have legal cannabis as a common starting point... ). Speaking of cannabis- how much money would California make if it was legalized in the U.S. and the sovereign nation of California becomes a major producer/exporter of cannabis? The U.S. "west coast" would then be comprised of Arizona, Nevada and Idaho.

    There is no attempt here to depict this as being an easy task. And while I am not an economist, it appears that the numbers show that it is not impossible either. There are many other aspects to be resolved; a self-defense/maritime patrol force (like Japan), immigration policies (amnesty to those currently here?) and customs/border security, health care (universal?), water supplies, energy sources, taxation and many, many more.

    California has capital, technological innovation power and a strategic geographic location going for it, among many other beneficial aspects. In many ways, we have distinct advantages over many other sovereign nations that exist, compete and thrive in the international order. Perhaps it is our turn to join their ranks.
    Last edited by Barry; 11-13-2016 at 06:52 PM.
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  23. TopTop #12
    Roland Jacopetti's Avatar
    Supporting Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Hi, everyone. I read through the various replies to this idea, and didn't notice any mention of Ecotopia. Did I overlook it? Ecotopia was a novel written in 1975 by Ernest Callenbach (1929-2012). A few years later, he wrote a sequel, Ecotopia Emerging, which I've never gotten around to reading.

    Briefly, Ecotopia envisions a future time in which Northern California, Oregon and Washington secede from the Union and form a new nation. I remember that Ecotopia was so eager to separate itself from the U.S. that it arranged for Canada to do international dealing with the "old country." I've been walking around for the last year, crying out, "Where is Ecotopia? It's time for us to secede!" This sounds great to me - I'm ready!
    Last edited by Barry; 11-13-2016 at 07:08 PM.
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  25. TopTop #13
    John Eder's Avatar
    John Eder
    Form Seb City Council Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvqgvWx_l8g

    Quote BManna wrote: View Post
    ...Would it be possible for you to post a link to view Trump meeting in the White House? I had looked briefly for you tubes unsuccessfully. Thanks! Beth
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  27. TopTop #14
    JWMcDonald
    Guest

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    So if California leaves the Union, I would suspect that would mean that you also leave Social Security and Medicare . . . ? Look out what you wish for...
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  29. TopTop #15
    kane's Avatar
    kane
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    JWM,
    If you collect Social Security, and you move to, say, the UK, you would continue to receive your checks, even in a foreign country, which California, after a Calexit, would then be.
    One proposal states that, following secession, Californians would retain US citizenship; I don't know the mechanism, so it would require research.
    As far as Medcaid/Medicare, I don't know enough about them to proffer an opinion.
    I hope folks keep an open mind to simply explore the possibility, without allowing fear to close the window.

    kane
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  31. TopTop #16
    JWMcDonald
    Guest

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Quote kane wrote: View Post
    ...If you collect Social Security, and you move to, say, the UK, you would continue to receive your checks, even in a foreign country, which California, after a Calexit, would then be...
    Do you really think that the Feds would continue to pump money into this debt-ridden state to prop it up ?

    When the Federal government teat runs dry, I suspect that the California politicians will be scrambling to retain their gravy.
    Last edited by Barry; 11-14-2016 at 02:29 PM.
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  33. TopTop #17
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Quote John Eder wrote: View Post
    I am a Social Security recipient, and I wholeheartedly support this movement. The funds that people like me now collect were earned by us- we paid into Social Security for many years (46 years in my case)- and it is our money (the same applies to SSDI).
    I've been completely unable to find any justification for this claim. It's not a 401(k) style savings account (no thanks to Bush-II). People seem to assume it's true, but this is what the Social Security Office itself says:

    How is Social Security Financed?

    Social Security is financed through a dedicated payroll tax. Employers and employees each pay 6.2 percent of wages up to the taxable maximum of $118,500 (in 2016), while the self-employed pay 12.4 percent.
    In 2015, $795 billion (85 percent) of total Old-Age and Survivors Insurance and Disability Insurance income came from payroll taxes. The remainder was provided by interest earnings ($93 billion or 10 percent) and revenue from taxation of OASDI benefits ($32 billion or 3 percent), and $325 million in reimbursements from the General Fund of the Treasury - most resulting from the 2012 payroll tax legislation.
    =========

    A lot of people who wish to think they're not on the government dole seem to take comfort in the idea it's just a forced-savings program.

    and to have a combined response to another post on this thread: JWMcDonald mentions our 'debt-ridden state' like it's a sign we're doomed. The government of the country OR of this state don't operate like a family, and I always suspect that this horror some people express about our public debt is a function of how they think about their own finances. And for many homeowners around here, the idea of a debt that's many times the size of your income is no big deal anyway!!
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  35. TopTop #18
    JWMcDonald
    Guest

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    ...How is Social Security Financed?...
    Social Security is a Ponzi scheme.

    As is the idea that debt (as in a specific example of the unfunded liabilities of the pension schemes that are rampant in this state) is "no big deal" - just pass it on to your children without exhibiting any sense of responsibility.
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  37. TopTop #19
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Quote JWMcDonald wrote: View Post
    Social Security is a Ponzi scheme.

    As is the idea that debt (as in a specific example of the unfunded liabilities of the pension schemes that are rampant in this state) is "no big deal" - just pass it on to your children without exhibiting any sense of responsibility.
    and Thomas Malthus proved that population was growing unsustainably. The Club of Rome pointed out that the world's ecosystems would collapse within a couple of decades. And there a a bunch of technological advances that are just five years away, and have been five years away for many decades. Where's my flying car?

    there of course are similarities to a Ponzi scheme - social security (currently) relies on there being enough workers to support the benefits of retirees. Of course excessive debt can be disruptive to countries - Argentina and Greece are examples. But fortunately it's not that simple. Debt is really just a way to share resources, where those who control too much wealth make it available to those who need capital. Spend it all on circuses and bad things happen, spend it on things that improve productivity and good things happen. Spending it on the health and welfare of our fellow citizens counts as something that improves productivity. On a personal level (though I decried the analogy before as inappropriate, it still is cheap & easy) borrow for a home or a vehicle and you have the foundation for a productive life. Over-borrow and it goes wrong, but you can say that about eating and over-eating.

    Not really relevant to the new glorious state of Jefferson anymore, though....
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  38. TopTop #20
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Yes, let's leave, but not just because Trump was elected president ... I did not vote for him but I'm the first one to admit that our media is bought and paid for so how can we trust any information being handed to us? Now it comes out that George Soros is funding the protests that have already claimed lives, including those
    of our police ... Great!

    Let's leave because we are tired of supporting a country which is bombing and droning innocent people around the world ...

    Let's leave because all of our human rights are being destroyed ...

    So we leave ... How then do we keep big money and corporate interests out of our new government? Hell, we can't even control the dangerous herbicide use of one of our largest vintners or unwanted development in our own town ...
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  40. TopTop #21
    John Eder's Avatar
    John Eder
    Form Seb City Council Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit! (Letter to Red States)

    Received from a friend today...

    Dear Red States:

    We're ticked off at the way you've treated California and we've decided we're leaving. We intend to form our own country and we're taking the other Blue States with us.

    In case you aren't aware that includes Hawaii, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, Minnesota, Illinois and all the Northeast.

    You get Texas, Oklahoma and all the slave states.

    We get stem cell research, the best beaches and the best mountains.

    We get Intel, Apple and Microsoft. You get WorldCom.

    We get Harvard. You get Ole' Miss.

    We get 85 percent of America's venture capital and entrepreneurs. You get Alabama.

    We get two-thirds of the tax revenue. You get to make the red states to pay their fair share.

    Since our aggregate divorce rate is 22 percent lower than the Christian Coalition's we get a bunch of happy families.

    With the Blue States in hand, we will have firm control of 80% of the country's fresh water, more than 90% of pineapple and lettuce, 92% of the nation's fresh fruit, 95% of America's quality wines, 90% percent of the high tech industry, all living redwoods, sequoias and condors, all the Ivy and Seven Sister schools plus Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Cal Tech and MIT.

    With the Red States, you will have to cope with 88% of all obese Americans and their projected health care costs, 92% of all US mosquitoes, nearly 100% of the tornadoes, 90% of the hurricanes, 99% of all Southern Baptists, virtually 100% of all televangelists, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Jones University, Clemson and the University of Georgia.

    We get Hollywood and Yosemite, Colorado Ski resorts and Minnesota’s Lakes, thank you.

    38% of those in the Red states believe Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale, 62% believe life is sacred unless we're discussing the death penalty or gun laws, 44% say that evolution is only a theory, 53% that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and 61% of you believe you are people with higher morals then us.

    We're taking the good pot too. You can have that dirt weed they grow in Mexico.
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  42. TopTop #22
    kane's Avatar
    kane
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Re:
    Quote arthunter wrote: View Post
    ...Now it comes out that George Soros is funding the protests that have already claimed lives, including those of our police ... Great!....
    Is this something you know to be true? or something from Breitbart?
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  43. TopTop #23
    KittyW's Avatar
    KittyW
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    That sounds like another ridiculous lie about G.Soros from the alt-right press. They also lied that he funded Ferguson protests, violent blacks, and that he's dead. There are dozens right-wing "news" sites that are spewing nothing but lies and hate mongering.The alt-right trolls are having a hey day.

    With Steven Bannon in the inner White House circle this is only going to get crazier, so watch out what you believe. Things are going from bad to worse as Trump starts appointing low lifes to high offices.

    "What it really means now that Donald Trump appointed vulgar, sexist, abusive, xenophobic Stephen Bannon as Chief Strategist:"
    https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/...icle-1.2873344

    "How Donald Trump is leading the transformation to turn the Republican Party into the new KKK:"
    https://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...icle-1.2784690

    Quote kane wrote: View Post
    Re:
    "Now it comes out that George Soros is funding the protests that have already claimed lives, including those
    of our police ... Great!"
    Is this something you know to be true? or something from Breitbart?
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  45. TopTop #24
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    This story is all over the place ... Here is the international version ...
    https://www.rt.com/usa/366579-soros-...rump-protests/

    Also, Soros is now named in a lawsuit which claims that he funded riots which led to violence and death ...

    Oh, and ABC news just reported that many of the protestors have been paid to protest ...

    Do you realize how this looks to the rest of the world as Democrats and Liberals are blamed for this violence?

    "Is this something you know to be true? or something from Breitbart?
    Last edited by Barry; 11-16-2016 at 02:54 PM.
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  46. TopTop #25
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Quote kane wrote: View Post
    Re:
    Is this something you know to be true? or something from Breitbart?
    yep, even if we CalExit we'll still have people who can't agree on what's factual. It's not just flyover folks and coastal elites who have different sets of facts they accept as reality.
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  47. Gratitude expressed by 2 members:

  48. TopTop #26

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    We even have Facebook, where many many young people get their news supplying the news stories that fit your profile. When everyone has different facts it's pretty hard to come to any agreements or even compromises.

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    yep, even if we CalExit we'll still have people who can't agree on what's factual. It's not just flyover folks and coastal elites who have different sets of facts they accept as reality.
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  49. TopTop #27
    arthunter's Avatar
    arthunter
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Facts by definition are indisputable and they are usually backed by written documents, videos or audio recordings ... It doesn't matter where they are published ... We can and will argue about interpretations of the facts but I'd rather focus on who might have taken down the Democrats and who continues to cause such dangerous division in our country ...
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  50. TopTop #28
    cotatikid's Avatar
    cotatikid
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit!

    Beyond even the shadow of any doubt we are in a life or death struggle with the 1%!

    They are our only real enemies, everybody else, the 99%, are also victims of the cupidity of those very wealthy few who control just about everything.

    Divide and conquer has worked to perfection to maintain this untenable paradigm, in tandem with the very carefully managed media.

    Until we can clearly understand what is, and has been, occurring, we will continue to be mercilessly exploited, impoverished and remain too confused.

    I am all for Calexit but now is the time to turn the total focus on reclaiming our freedom and liberty, IMHO.

    Quote arthunter wrote: View Post
    Facts by definition are indisputable and they are usually backed by written documents, videos or audio recordings ... It doesn't matter where they are published ... We can and will argue about interpretations of the facts but I'd rather focus on who might have taken down the Democrats and who continues to cause such dangerous division in our country ...
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  51. Gratitude expressed by 5 members:

  52. TopTop #29
    JanetLee
     

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit! (Letter to Red States)

    We should leave so that our votes will count in presidential elections but we should not be mean and elitist about it. There are lots of good folks in the red states.
    Last edited by Barry; 11-17-2016 at 04:17 PM.
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  53. TopTop #30
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: One Out-of-the-Box Solution - CalExit! (Letter to Red States)

    Quote JanetLee wrote: View Post
    We should leave so that our votes will count in presidential elections but we should not be mean and elitist about it. There are lots of good folks in the red states.
    I believe the phrase is "and some, I assume, are good people".
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