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What one needs to understand is that any so called "apology " will be written by someone other than Mr. Carrillo himself and it has been in ,"their " hands , as to what to say and when to apologize ..in my opinion..
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seems simpler just to buy his vote the normal way.... they leave themselves wide open to blackmail
Imagine the simple scenario of someone tailing Carrillo on his little jaunt through the neighborhood in socks and undies. ...this guy now is creepy to a woman's bedroom window. ..Looking pretty bad....
So now we have a person who could be completely under someone's control i....
boy, I would never have guessed that this topic would draw the bandwidth it has!!
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The issue is his qualification and fitness for being one of the supervisors of our county.
If he is on psychotropic medication, then all the more reason to replace him. Same goes for any other county supervisor (or elected official) on psychotropic meds. I do not want the thinking, decision-making and behavior of those holding the county's reins to be dependent on which pill s/he did or did not take.
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Ok, let's back up from this statement a bit. Being on psych meds doesn't automatically mean that a person is not capable of clear thought and/or decisions. If the medications are being prescribed properly and the person is being appropriately followed by a knowledgeable physician, they are able to act and think quite clearly, better than without the meds. You would be surprised to find out that there are people with significant mental health issues that are helped by medications to the point of being able to contribute significantly, with clarity and good judgment, to their communities and to society as a whole. In fact, I would have to say I would have more trust in and more respect for someone who takes responsibility for their health and gets the care that they need, versus a person using their addictions to run away from their issues and pain and blaming the consequences on others.
Having said that, making blanket statements about whole swaths of people, without finding out who they are as individuals is what has taken our country down. We have forgotten how to have empathy and compassion for each other. Each person is unique and important. And each person is responsible for their own choices and their own values, and those choices have consequences.
Whatever the reason is for Efren's behavior, his choices have consequences. Isn't that the point of this discussion? Not how do we pick our next stigmatized group...
Jessica
If he is on psychotropic medication, then all the more reason to replace him. Same goes for any other county supervisor (or elected official) on psychotropic meds. I do not want the thinking, decision-making and behavior of those holding the county's reins to be dependent on which pill s/he did or did not take.
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I read that the Gov. would appoint someone for the interim.
Rue Furch said she's interested in running for Efren's seat, as did Jonathan Greenberg.
Efren's first meeting with the judge will be today, (7/18), 8:30 AM, courtroom #9. Being present for the court hearings, trials, etc. does have an effect. Most judges have to be elected; when folks are watching, they tend to pay more attention toward installing justice.
I don't trust the SR cops any more than I trust Carrillo. Why did it take so many hours before he was booked? Waiting for him to sober up? Inventing a lighter crime? Getting the diluted story vetted with his handlers?
When I tried to get the Santa Rosa police to take a report and investigate, after I was informed by the fellow whom Doug Bosco had tasked with using his influence to obstruct justice in Carrillo's San Diego case, they refused. I've gone up the chain; thank god the NSA is collecting everyone's data. I warned Efren that Big Brother was watching. Maybe that's why he's had a drinking problem - to try to drown his very guilty conscience. I have no sympathy for that; there is no excuse or sexual intruders/offenders.
I do want all of our Constitutional Rights returned, but I'll sacrifice my privacy for true security. You?
Last Friday afternoon, I was disclosing to a rather prominent person with ties to Willie Brown, the details of Efren's previous crimes; and how the folks who obstructed justice for him, did the same for the criminals in my life, leading to my daughter's death.
The fact that about 12 hours later Efren was arrested speaks volumes. Could it be my friend called Willie, and Willie called Bosco and told him, "your boy has gotta be thrown under the bus"? The NSA knows if it was just his Karma, or Dirty Dog Democrats getting more ruthless than usual.
(You think the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee will let loose that info, which her husband's Carlyle Group is the data analyst contractor's primary investor? Only total transparency will begin to solve today's problems. Can 99.5% of us pressure Obama into working for us, and not the white collar criminals?)
Notice how Bosco has shown zero concern about the woman whose home was intruded. These folks are sick - psychopaths.
I'm hatching some plans to reverse the injustice; as well as, move our money to support the advertisers who move their money away from toxic media sources like the PD.
They have reported false information about me for years, but they really crossed the line printing lies relating to my daughter's demise, and refused to meet with me to present the facts so they could print corrections.
Without the truth, there is no justice; without justice there is no peace. Without honorable lawmakers and law enforcement - it's up to us to fix the mess. The Grand Jury is a start, even if crooked judges, etc. influence it.
Our Attorney General allowed Willie Brown to host her recent campaign fundraiser. Besides writing the playbook on dirty politics, he's a lobbyist for Station Casinos and PG&E among others; just as some of the owners of the Press Democrat are. Kamala Harris needs us to warn her of the consequences of taking dirty money.
When I was commenting on the creep Carrillo story on the PD website, I was disclosing the info on the PD owner's San Diego obstruction of justice when they censored me in real time, I was knocked off mid-sentence. They can't handle the truth!
We also need to recruit someone to challenge Jill Ravitch in the next election, she is as bad as these others.
So glad so many folks are waking up. So pleased Wacco has been here to document all the times I warned ya'll about the bad guys in our midst early on. Hobbs, Carrillo, Press Democrat - here to destroy our quality of life unless we work to de-fund and incarcerate the evil deed doers with such unquenchable thirst for greed and power.
A few weeks ago I picked up the documents to begin a recall. Who's ready to help? (I'm listed in Sebastopol.)
We shall overcome!
Colleen Fernald
How is a Supervisor replaced after he or she resigns? Is there an established protocol for this process?
Last edited by Barry; 07-18-2013 at 11:51 AM.
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It's a fact that many cops lie, as well as many politicians. You are lucky to get a fair and informed judge who has read all the information in a case; criminal defense lawyers only want to a) make lots of money, and/or b) win, especially high profile cases.
Politicians like Efren have to work real hard to get corrupt law enforcement to take action; they usually get a keep out of jail card from their sponsors. Remember the female judge (Elaine Rushing?) who got away with crashing her car while drunk?
Well this is Efren's the 2nd arrest in less than a year. Before that, he was having Paul Hobbs host his campaign fundraisers and then pretending to throw them under the bus when they crossed the legal line 4 times!
He knew in advance the threats to my family and Jenkel's property; and did nothing to help. In fact, if law enforcement does a thorough job, it's likely you'll find how he enabled the criminals in these cases. Here's just one of many posts on this:
www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?97661-Wacco-Heroes-and-Zeros&p=165589#post165589
Wacco Heroes and Zeros
from 04-24-2013
The bottom line is that more than just schoolchildren are at risk because of what Efren Carillo and Jill Ravitch do, and do not do. My child is dead. Both Jill and Efren could have taken action on information I presented to prevent this; they chose to protect their sponsors, not me and Charlotte.
They could have acted on information they had to prevent the theft and rape of John Jenkel's land. They did the opposite. Only when you spoke out in large enough numbers did Efren come out against Hobbs.
*****
If the original comments to the first PD story on his recent arrest are still online, you can hear from folks who went to school with him, and were bullied by him. Anyone who likes him, either does not know enough about him, or has an issue with their own ethics and thus can't tell right from wrong. An informed, just person will change their opinion IF all the facts make the light of day.
I remember well the open house Kathleen Schaffer hosted, and Efren spoke as a guest at the Sebastopol Library. I knew Efren's true character and my comments reflected that. Barry & his wife were livid at me for doing so. Which of us was out of line?
I go by my experience and my gut; what little truth makes it to print is anecdotal. I've been to the majority of Supervisor's meetings since he's been in office. I know what bullshit smells like. He reeks, So does Susan Upchurch, and many more.
There is no rush to this judgement. I'm very glad I was not intimidated enough to keep quiet; even after death threats.
He was not vulnerable because he was in his underwear. He is as rotten to the core as his sponsors and Paul Hobbs LLC are!
I wish we could speak with and help support the victim. I know what it's like to have your sense of security shattered. I unfortunately know first hand how deeply damaging rape is. I know what it's like for people to choose not to believe you, and then they protect the person who committed the crime; and in whose hands my child met her death.
Efren may have been set up, drugged, or a "Manchurian Candidate"; but he knew the character of those he did his bidding for; he knew the risks.
In San Diego, there was no fight, one punch and the other guy was knock out cold. Efren could have called 911 instead of throwing a punch, could have gone back to the club to get their security to handle it. I don't have proof yet that the witnesses and victim were bought off; but the injured man had an ER visit after the altercation; why no civil suit to pay this bill? Good bet he was more than compensated for his pain and to keep quiet.
What I do know for a fact is, the person who was instructed by Bosco to use his relationship with a college buddy in San Diego to get Efren's charges dropped has children of his own he needs to protect. You know organized crime is not forgiving, it's hard to get out. If you're convicted of a felony, you can't hold office, they spared no expense to insulate him, protect their investment.
Organized crime here is now so emboldened it often operates in plain sight; just look at PG&E for example. On the day I spoke at a BOS meeting to disclose my knowledge of Efren & Bosco's San Diego crimes he was being given the regional head of the Water Agency Association. If you had been there watching him as I spoke, you would know he was guilty just by looking at him, turned beet read and slunk into his seat; his aide looked like she wanted to kill me.
They have SO much at stake, finding more ways to keep the wine, casino and development interests fat was a job Efren was so good at; that's why they wanted to send him up the political ladder, so he could expand turning our Redwood Empire into disneyland for winos on a larger scale; and expand these bad practices statewide.
If we are diligent and very lucky, truth and justice will be served. If not, say good bye to the last shreds of scenic & wildlife corridors; get ready to dig another well, cause the winery next door is about to suck up the groundwater with a bigger pump. And that winery next door got their expansion permit because they contributed handsomely to Carrillo's and a few others next campaigns.
You really have no idea how much damage has been done, or is to come, with the wool so tightly pulled down before you eyes. Please learn to tell the difference between faux progressive and the real thing.
I'll see if I can find forgiveness, after the confessions and restoration of justice. No redemption until they all have served their time behind bars.
Regarding the WACCO response to the charges against Efren Carillo, I find this rush to judgment by a generally progressive, reasonable group of people surprising and appalling Is this kneejerk mob attack mode really appropriate? The facts will emerge - two facts already known are that Carillo was unarmed and, yes, in his underwear, a dress mode that makes him more, rather than less, vulnerable. This may be the end of his political career as it shows such extremely poor judgment, but, regardless of how much one agrees or disagrees with his positions. this eagerness to vilify and condemn him and to assume the worst without further understanding of the whole situation is wrong-headed, small-minded and disturbing. We can do better.
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This discussion is not about stigmatizing "swaths" of a demographic. It it not about persons with a medical condition going about their private business in their private lives. It is about the fitness, suitability and integrity of individuals in high-level elected office. Business is business.
The electorate is the hiring committee; we have an important job to do here, one that IMO has been stolen out from under us. We can either allow that theft to continue, or we can reclaim our power. That really is the bottom line here, so please stop obfuscating with this "compassion" distraction.
- Kirsten
Ok, let's back up from this statement a bit. Being on psych meds doesn't automatically mean that a person is not capable of clear thought and/or decisions. If the medications are being prescribed properly and the person is being appropriately followed by a knowledgeable physician, they are able to act and think quite clearly, better than without the meds. You would be surprised to find out that there are people with significant mental health issues that are helped by medications to the point of being able to contribute significantly, with clarity and good judgment, to their communities and to society as a whole. In fact, I would have to say I would have more trust in and more respect for someone who takes responsibility for their health and gets the care that they need, versus a person using their addictions to run away from their issues and pain and blaming the consequences on others.
Having said that, making blanket statements about whole swaths of people, without finding out who they are as individuals is what has taken our country down. We have forgotten how to have empathy and compassion for each other. Each person is unique and important. And each person is responsible for their own choices and their own values, and those choices have consequences.
Whatever the reason is for Efren's behavior, his choices have consequences. Isn't that the point of this discussion? Not how do we pick our next stigmatized group...
Jessica
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Kirsten,
Let me be clear about something. As has been said already, compassion DOES NOT mean that we just give people a pass for their hardships. It DOES NOT mean we look away when someone breaks the law and hurts another human being (or animal). What it DOES mean is that we acknowledge the totality of what IS, in all its messiness. I can look at Efren and have compassion for his addiction (if there is indeed one). I can have empathy for the pain that he might be in that causes him to make the bad choices he makes. However, I DO NOT condone his behavior. I DO NOT think that going to rehab makes things all better. "Poor Efren" is not part of my thought process.
When we have compassion for ourselves or others, we acknowledge what is true in this moment. In order to move forward, to change, to make appropriate choices, we MUST be able to know fully where and who we are in this moment. All compassion is, and love for that matter, is being able to hold and acknowledge what is. And yes it bothers me when people make judgments or statements without knowing anything about what is true for the person we are judging, because there are many cases where the circumstances matter a great deal and SHOULD inform our decisions.
I can have compassion for the drunk driver who decides to drown his pain in alcohol, but it doesn't give him a pass when that CHOICE causes the death of another.
Jessica
This discussion is not about stigmatizing "swaths" of a demographic. It it not about persons with a medical condition going about their private business in their private lives. It is about the fitness, suitability and integrity of individuals in high-level elected office. Business is business.
The electorate is the hiring committee; we have an important job to do here, one that IMO has been stolen out from under us. We can either allow that theft to continue, or we can reclaim our power. That really is the bottom line here, so please stop obfuscating with this "compassion" distraction.
- Kirsten
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There's no denying that Efren Carillo has a serious problem. His crazy escapade has seriously damaged his reputation, a reputation that is particularly crucial for a person with political ambitions. He terrified a woman in the dead of the night. He has a drinking problem and has checked into a rehab institution. This guy has really messed up, and it will be a very tall order for him to pull himself together and rebuild the public trust he has so dramatically shattered!
But I have to agree with those Waccovians who say we need to take a step back before throwing him into the psychopathic trash can. There is so much that we--or at least I--don't know about the situation. Was this just a random adventure or did he know this woman? What does she think about it? Was he really prepared to rape her or, in his drunken fog, was he imagining that she would be thrilled by his dashing bravado? Were all the people who have known him for a long time and think he's a truly nice guy simply deluded and unaware that underneath it all he's some kind of monster? Or is he an undeniably brilliant and basically kind young man with a promising career, beset like so many others by deep emotional problems that have pressed him into alcoholism? If the latter, what will he do to pull himself together, make amends, and undertake the hard work of emotional healing?
This is the kind of effort that reveals a person's true grit!
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Occihoff:
Thank you for your compassionate post.
However, please keep in mind that the police have, at least thus far, stated that while it appeared that he had indeed been drinking, he did not appear to be intoxicated, that therefore, they didn't test his blood-alcohol level.
This, to me, makes the situation far worse, for it appears that he was in control of his faculties and, thus, made the conscious decision to attempt to enter this woman's house by breaking her window screen.
Also, I am getting sick and tired of politicians and just plain citizens using the "under the influence" defense as a crutch for bad decisions and actions. While I do believe that alcoholism is an addiction, let us not forget that the individual makes a conscious decision whether or not to drink alcohol, so taking some responsibility for their actions is in order.
That stated, it must indeed be hard for anyone who has a predisposition to drink wine to live in the "wine country," where the grapevines fill the land and the wine flows plentifully and is imbibed, glass after glass, by
many people who really shouldn't be drinking in the first place.
I don't drink wine, and I never will. But I know lots of other people who do, and I am not afraid to remind them of Julia Child's favorite saying, "Anything in moderation," whenever I think that they've had too much.
And I'm doing so as their friend, NOT as their enabler.
Perhaps if Efren's friends had done that and stopped enabling him early on, he wouldn't find himself in the sad state of affairs that he finds himself in now.
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https://www.bohemian.com/BohoBlog/ar...pears-in-court
Prior to this rag's highly selective choice of photo this morning, I hadn't fully grasped exactly what it means to openly protect an elected official, one who governs others from one of the most powerful positions in the county. Until I saw this on twitter. North Bay Boho's choice of photo. Jaw-dropping. So, yeah, a picture is worth a thousand words. I get it now. And if they switch it out later, I've got a copy, to keep reminding myself of what ppl are up against.
He governs people. He has clothes on. You may show the full front.
Last edited by dzerach; 07-18-2013 at 12:44 PM. Reason: the extended version
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Hi Sebastacat, and thank you for your compassionate post!
I'm amazed to hear that the police did not bother to test Efren's blood alcohol level, and that although he had been drinking they thought he did not seem to be intoxicated. It makes no sense to me. If charges are filed, then, a crucial piece of evidence has been overlooked and lost.
I certainly agree that people must be held accountable for their drug use and whatever they do under the influence. I only hope that Efren will take responsibility by using this situation as a wake-up call to deal with the underlying emotional problems that are ruining his life.
The breaking of the window screen is indeed a creepy detail.
I, too, have never been attracted to alcohol, although I have found great benefit in the judicious use of psychedelics.
Last edited by Barry; 07-18-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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Lots of people drink and don't drop by in their underpants to a neighbor's house in the dead of night. The woman told the police that she'd only met Efren Carrillo 2 or 3 times in the neighborhood. They didn't really know each other. He cut a hole into her window screen, then he decided to go around to the front door and knock on it announcing a neighborly visit. Most people are in bed sleeping at 3:40am. His story was that he wanted to have a drink with the woman only the police didn't find him with any alcohol. This isn't a matter of compassion so much as a job that's in question which he was elected to do. At this time, I have significant questions about his integrity and trustworthiness. I remain unconvinced this is a simple matter of a drinking problem.
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Very funny indeed, Henry! Although you may not be a well known community leader, perhaps you should experimentally research the answers to your questions. Just let me know the time and place...
Seriously, as to your monster question, I will be unpleasantly surprised if it turns out that everybody who knows him has been totally taken in by his Dr. Jekyll act all these years, and that now he has reverted to Mr. Hyde!
Last edited by Barry; 07-19-2013 at 12:53 PM.
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I think you can have both compassion for him (obviously there is something seriously wrong) AND question his ability to do the job he has been hired to do. Those aren't mutually exclusive.
We get in trouble when one or the other are the only things we consider in assessing a situation.
Jessica
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I agree he should GO. I think he should not be permitted to resign; he should be FIRED. He has not upheld his oath of office, and he has fouled the integrity of his position. It seems to me that this would constitute breach of contract.
Also, advertising himself as mentally fit to represent us, in light of his demonstrated personal problems, would appear to be fraudulent behavior, at best.
Solving his personal problems should be done on his own time and his own dime.
Whether or not he finds other employment is a matter of utter indifference.
Ernie, come back! We miss you.
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Well tell it like it is " Hit the road Jack(Efferen) and don't you come back no more- no more- no more- no more!! Actually he does have alternatives for his career,like going back to southern Calif. and have a good boy to boy chat with Arnold about a "acting career" . Even though your performance truly failed around here, I'm sure our ex-Gov. has a new position for you !
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He will have his day in court, but just the reports of what is perceived to have happened is enough to ruin his reputation and political career. Even his "close advisors" (who worked for and funded him) have already started to abandon the ship just like rats do. I see no other option for Efren than to resign.
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Any perfect people out there? May you be known for the worst thing you ever did or do from here forward.
For what its worth
https://www.sonomacountygazette.com/...icle-1645.html
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Well stated, Henry.
Here are three songs which I would like to dedicate to Efren:
1. Walking on a Thin Line - by Huey Lewis and the News;
2. Only a Memory - by the Smithereens;
3. Walking Contradiction - by Green Day.
I think that these three great songs pretty much sum of the entire situation - beautifully and completely.
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This idea that there are bad people on one side and the good people on the other is a little bit retrograde.
Maybe you have a brother or a son, would you be so quick to discount their worth were they to be in Carrillo's position?
Is a human being so easily discounted and sent to the rubbish pile?
Is there no repair?
I guarantee there are things about you, you would not want everyone here to know about! I don't know you, I am
not inferring, its just the human condition. Everyone does shit they wouldn't want published on front street.
It happens. Shit happens. Where are the enlightened ones who can repair and restore a humans life?
Maybe the idea of Progressive needs a little evolution
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Henry, why do you admire being a prosecutor?
I can imagine it, I would love to pin the lies to the ground, Oh that would be grand.
But have you summed up all of Carrillo's actions as an elected official and found him wanting, or are you using this to portray a crusade of you as snake hunter?
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Tossing it out the window shows your shortcomings. You see after you pin it to the ground, then you can work with it. But what's that they say? " violence is the last resort of the incompetent." You indict yourself at having no fertility of the human condition to repair and restore.
Continue on as a prosecutor, you have no other talent than to condemn.
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Thad -
No one is saying that Efren should be put on the scrap heap. However, that being said, he committed a very serious offense last weekend which, quite frankly, chilled me to the bone all weekend. The potential for a very different outcome was great - both for her AND for him. Just think what could have happened if he had made a successful entry into her bedroom. I am so thankful that that did not come to pass.
I have some grave concerns surrounding this entire incident and at least one other which preceded it.
To that end, I will share with you the following thoughts:
1. While Mr. Carrillo is out on "medical leave," why should we, his constituents -- who are, in essence, his bosses -- be paying his salary of $3,000 per week? He committed a crime and is now blaming alcohol as the culprit and the catalyst, despite the fact that members of the Santa Rosa Police Department said that he had been drinking but was not intoxicated. This leads Sebastacat to believe that he had at least some control over his faculties at the time that he committed the alleged act of ripping open the window screen on the victim's window, sticking his hand inside her room and rustling her blinds. I object to paying him any sum of money while he is absent and not performing the duties for which he was elected.
2. Last year when Supervisor Carrillo was arrested in San Diego for getting into a physical altercation which left one man knocked unconscious, he offered up the flimsy excuse that he was "protecting the honor of women." Yet, last Saturday, if we are to believe that the version of events related to us by members of the Santa Rosa Police Department is true, he was doing the exact opposite,
i.e. attempting to enter a woman's bedroom without her permission or consent at 3:40 in the morning wearing nothing by his undershorts and socks!
Sebastacat now feels that it is time for a full and complete investigation into the events surrounding last year's shameful altercation in San Diego. I read all of the newspaper articles as well as Mr. Carrillo's statement, and I can tell you that his statement was rife with inconsistencies.
Given what happened in Santa Rosa last Saturday morning, are we still to believe Mr. Carrillo's statement that "everything became a blur," or should more details be provided to a public which was all but shut out of the process the last time around by the San Diego Police Department, which suppressed the videotape as well as the police report?
Also, Sebastacat has had one burning question about this incident which was never answered: WHAT HAPPENED TO THE VICTIM? Did he make a full and complete recovery, or did he sustain permanent injuries? Was he threatened with retaliation if he dared to make a claim, or was he paid off for his promise of silence? And, if the latter was true, whose money was used to pay him off? Was it Efren's money? His "friends'" money? Our taxpayer money? Many inquiring minds want to know, and Sebastacat is one of them.
3. Whose money is going to be used to pay for Efren's rehab? Will it be his money? His friends' money? The taxpayers' money?
If it is the latter, I object. I feel that if this is indeed true that it is a personal problem for which Mr. Carrillo should foot the bill. Making the taxpayers foot the bill for a condition which he supposedly allowed to get out of control is nothing but more of the same enabling which got him to the sorry state where he now finds himself. If he needs help, by all means, he should get it -- but it should be paid for by him. Efren needs to start taking some responsibility for his own life.
You mentioned in your post, "What if they were a brother or son?"
I will now ask you this question: What if the victim in this case were your mother or sister? How would you feel about Efren's actions then?
Finally, Thad , you make the statement that "progressive needs a revolution."
I disagree.
Instead, it's time to get back to being truly progressive and acknowledge the fact that putting the victim in this case first and desiring justice for her are indeed progressive values and laudible goals -- and that holding that mindset certainly doesn't make those of us who hold those beliefs somehow non-progressive, evil or even regressive.
To that end, I am proposing that the $3,000 per week that Mr. Carrillo will be collecting while he is away from his official duties be put into a special account as compensation for the victim. Maybe that can serve as the beginning of the healing process -- for him, and for his female victim.
Until then, the lame excuses offered up by his advisors, friends and others close to him will only continue to anger those of us who have vocally spoken out about the lack of remorse on Mr. Carrillo's part -- and the absence of an apology for his victim.
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Thank you for the reasonable response, all that you say is true, I want one clarification.
considering the atrocity of our judicial system I want to say that justice now is really just us, and with that said,
there is a new or semi new action of remedial justice which doesn't invoke the archaic form of our justice system.
Its strange to watch people who have this veneer of sophistication yet hide this blood lust for crucifixion, I believe
in repair.
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I never called anybody a rat, but only used a simile?
I feel bad for Efren, and he will be able to defend himself in court. Adrian is very competent. My point again is that the image of what is reported to have happened is enough to ruin his political career. This is not a judgement about his character, or whether he attempted a break in, but only about the obvious public perception that he behaved in such a way as to erode confidence in his ablilty to serve.
Please to don't toss any bombs at me, I'm just stating the obvious.
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